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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » Talking Smack About the Mac

It’d be even funnier if it weren’t true (link via LC & IB Steve H):

[googlevideo]-6553260189868317794[/googlevideo]

69 Responses to “Talking Smack About the Mac”
  1. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952 UNITED STATES

    This is pretty damn funny……..

  2. Unregistered Comment by dawnsblood UNITED STATES

    Sorry, but I refuse to ignore 80% of the software market. I wish you Mac users the best though.

  3. Unregistered Comment by dawnsblood UNITED STATES

    Lol worship the mighty blue apple!

  4. Darth Bacon Comment by Darth Bacon UNITED STATES

    Heh.

  5. LC Tremor Comment by LC Tremor UNITED STATES

    Heh… As I type this from my Mac, I have to laugh… But not necessarily because it’s true… Sounds to me like the guy was using an older Mac (the ones on the vid looked to be 4+ years old) to run very intense programs that were made recently. Yeah, I can understand how established MS users can see the Mac OS as frustrating, and even confusing… The thing is that the things are being marketed to the lowest common denominator (part of their campaign strategy for years has been the whole simplicity factor for the uneducated). However, most of the complaints in the video were fairly easily corrected. If he took the time to alter his preferences so that, for instance, on a CD insertion, instead of automatically playing, it opens a finder window, or does nothing. The complains about a misnaming a folder or deleting a file that crashes the system sounds like he was screwing around in the library, something that Apple recommends the inexperienced never do… OS X is based on UNIX, a great platform, but one that can be finicky if you don’t treat it with a bit of respect… And if you do screw something like that up… That is what that disk labeled “Software Restore” is for… Duh!

    At any rate… Yeah, I laughed at it… Even some of us Mac folk have a sense of humor.

  6. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I UNITED STATES

    That’s exactly the way I see it too, LC Tremor. I’m pretty sure that a lot of his trouble were based on a lack of understanding, but it was a funny vid.

    Just like I think that PC jokes are hilarious too.

    If you can’t laugh at yourself and your preferences, then you’re in trouble. :happy_tb:

  7. LC & IB Bluto Comment by LC & IB Bluto UNITED STATES

    In the early nineties I was a graphic designer at a large defense contractor. Everything was done on effing Macs, and the Mac partisans were always talking about how wonderful the Macs were.

    Of course, I was the one who got stuck converting everything over to PC so it could be submitted in a format the military would accept.

  8. Orion Comment by Orion UNITED STATES

    I’ve been running my own computer consulting firm for 20 years.

    This was hilarious, but I have to say - THANK GOD FOR BILL GATES! Without him, I’d be broke. In 20 years I had four - count ‘em, FOUR Mac calls. Three were user error. One was to expand its hardware.

    The rest of my business was 70% repairing/reinstalling/cleaning/recovering from Microsloth’s sh$tware. (the rest was dealing with mainframes and Unix boxes in one flavor or another)

    Every complaint he had could be a PC complaint - and in spades.

    Doesn’t change the fact that this was well done, funny, and will no doubt hit a chord for a lot of frustrated Mac people.

    Orion

  9. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon UNITED STATES

    I’ve got that video on my hard drive from awhile back… it came out years ago, actually, so no he wasn’t running modern programs on an old Mac, he was probably just overdriving his system. I’ve watched it TONS of times, and I laugh every time. And I wouldn’t say it was based on a lack of understanding. I think he’s exaggerating and making fun of something he knows VERY well and just doesn’t like very much. And yeah it’s funny because it is mostly true mixed in with a healthy dose of exaggeration and overacting.

    And yeah PCs can bomb on you too, and the uneducated can screw up their system just as bad. Like a friend of mine in college who had a roommate who deleted one of the main windoze 98 files because he thought he had a virus. Or plenty of other similar situations. Computers are only as smart as the person sitting in front of the keyboard.

    Not that I like Macs. I don’t use them, and I don’t really care for them. If I’m going to use Unix I prefer pretty much any linux version over MacOS. But they aren’t total garbage either.

    RH

  10. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon UNITED STATES

    Just checked the date on my file… 6/21/2003… so the video is at LEAST three years old. Possibly more.

    RH

  11. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon UNITED STATES

    Come to think of it, I’m surprised nobody else noticed that this is a PARODY of the mac ads that were so popular back three or four years ago. Anybody remember the “think different” ad campaign? If not, go find one or two of them… ought to be able to find one on google video or youtube (or both)… then compare them to this video. Like the “crash different” instead of “think different”… like the mac ads (sometimes) talking about freeing yourself (I think one even mentioned freeing your inner child), and hunter talking about it killing his inner child… etc…

    RH

  12. Unregistered Comment by EricWS UNITED STATES

    Tremor, the video has been floating around since at least the summer of 2003. That is when the copy of it I have on my hardrive was posted. So the computers were not that old at the time of video’s creation. His problemn was not a matter of too much software for his hardware.

    I happen to work in an office with several folks who use Macs for graphics work and video editing, and I have seen brand new machines do goofy crap that I have never even seen an unpatched copy of Windows pull. The guys who use them seem almost fatigued by working with Macs. They save constantly, and seem to accept random software and hardware issues as normal.

  13. Lc Scott Comment by Lc Scott UNITED STATES

    Dam funny and true.
    I actuality liked macs till I had to have one of them repaired.
    I found out that I had to Pay to ship it to them Pay to have it fixed and then Pay to have it shipped back. All for a know design issue that should have been covered by a warranty. At least with a P.C. I can take out the offending part and replace it. Now if macs could do that I would be hooked.

  14. Agent Orange Comment by Agent Orange

    An Aussie friend of mine famously said:

    MACS = SCAM

    :lol_wp:

  15. LCBrendan Comment by LCBrendan AUSTRALIA

    Tech support guy after one unbelievably stupid idiot hangs up.

    “Mac.AOL.”

    Voice from the back:”Send him to me, and you DIE.Slowly.”

  16. kepiblanc Comment by kepiblanc DENMARK

    I have no idea what all this is about…what’s a “crash” ?

  17. Unregistered Comment by Sir George UNITED STATES

    I still like the old ENIAC. If you had a problem you’d just drag and drop the burnt out tube into the recycle bin.

  18. Unregistered Comment by nerbygirl UNITED STATES

    That was a funny video, but interestingly, I’ve had the same iBook for four years now and have not had a problem EVER. I’ve edited movies, added software, etc. etc. Nothing. nada.

    The Mac he was holding is something like TEN years old?
    I would have laughed harder, but I guess I can’t relate. Am I the only Mac user who has had such luck?

  19. Imperial Star Destroyer Comment by Imperial Star Destroyer UNITED STATES

    Macs are the workings of Dhemmycrats. Real conservatives use PCs. LOL

  20. Unregistered Comment by nerbygirl UNITED STATES

    Hey hey hey Imperial Star Destroyer. Them’s fightin’ words. This girl is noo Dhemmycrat.
    I run my own business, and got to CHOSE my computer. I didn’t have it forced on me by my employer.
    And my Mac works just fine thank-you very much.
    I say, to each his own. You like PC, I like Mac.
    Isn’t THAT the REPULICAN way of thinking, my dear? :)

  21. Unregistered Comment by Machiavelli UNITED STATES

    I was thinking that guy sounds like a John Kerry. Uninformed and he got the joke wrong.

    As for a crash, haven’t seen one for over 18 months.

  22. LC Tremor Comment by LC Tremor UNITED STATES

    Even if the video is 3 (or even four) years old that bondi blue iMac he was holding could have been made as early as 1998! And if he was running OS X on it, I can only imagine that those weren’t crashes or freeze so much as the fact that the tiny little 233 MHtz processor had a lot of stuff to process. Apple says that X will run on any G3 Mac, but they don’t say it will run well. My old G3 tower had to get a new video card and a new processor upgrade before it could run X at speeds that didn’t make a glacier look like an avalanche. The G4 tower seen in the video could have been made as early as 2000. We all know tech advancements were coming in so fast at that time that it seemed as soon as you purchased the damn box it was obsolete… Especially when it comes to processor intense programs (and X is one of them when running it on a sub-500MHtz machine).

    As for Macs being lemons, I’ve heard people talk about this kind of stuff from time to time… The only thing I can chalk it up to is that every company has defective products that slip through the cracks, the Mac ones just seem all the bigger because there aren’t as many Macs, and the fact that Apple implies in its advertisements that they are crash free. And Apple has a policy on lemons… If you have a new computer that has major complications more than once (i.e. take it back to the store type problems) Apple takes the computer off the market and gives you another one with at least the same specs as the lemon.

  23. Unregistered Comment by Ranger REPUBLIC OF KOREA

    I once was a loyal PC user. Since 1989, I’ve owned no less than seven PCs. Decided last year to take the plunge and bought a Mac and happily I haven’t looked back since. Three months ago, I bought a second Mac laptop with the new intel dual core processors for HD video editing and have been extremely pleased with its performance. I watched that video and could not relate. The problems he mentions are more PC related than Mac. Being in the Army, I still use the PC daily, but honestly, I think the Mac is a better and more stable platform to work on. Mileage may vary, but that’s been my take on it.

    Now, I’m anxiously awaiting for the quad-core (8 processors) to come out early next year. As far as only real conservatives using PCs, well I’m about as conservative as they come. I’m a combat decorated infantry officer currently serving in Korea. Not too many Dhemmycrats lurking in my neck of the woods.

  24. Unregistered Comment by Clarion

    That blue Mac he’s got there can’t be more than a G3. Video old or not, those Macs are older yet. He could be overwhelming the thing.

    I grew up on PC’s and went to Mac four years ago, because I was tired of having to eff with the thing every time I turned around. I have never looked back — I’ve never yet had to restore or do any of the kinds of things he’s describing. I got a Powerbook a year later, same’s true.

    It’s hard to laugh at someone who’s screwing with stuff he doesn’t understand and is whinging about paying the price.

  25. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    This is dated, but still worth a read… it still sums up the state of affairs rather well.

  26. jaybear Comment by jaybear UNITED STATES

    I teach 3D computer animation at a local college here, and the only platform that 3D Studio Max runs on is a PC. But for that fact, I’d still be a dedicated Mac user…..not many job opportunities for mac virus writers either.

  27. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon

    I’m still surprised nobody else noted the parody…

    Every word out of his lips could be an absolute lie, and it would still be funny because it’s a parody of the mac ads from 4 years back.

    RH

  28. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I UNITED STATES

    I agree, Robert. Quit taking things so seriously, people, it’s a JOKE.

    As to the stability of Macs, I have to admit that my opinions on that matter are entirely out-of-date and based on unhappy experiences at my alma mater many moons ago, where our “IT lab” was almost entirely populated with Macs that Apple had given them for free (to build a customer base, of course, which is just fine. Capitalism at work, baby).

    But that was years ago AND, more importantly, we all know what happens to “community computers”, don’t we? I’m convinced that 99% of those Macs’ troubles were caused by cone-headed morons who should never have been let near any sort of equipment more complicated than a monkey wrench.

    Anyway, I’m a PC user, and that has nothing to do with any alleged technical issues of todays’ Macs, which I know next to nothing about.

    The REASON is that I won’t pay through the nose for a platform that is entirely proprietary and only runs about 10% of the software I WANT to run on it, even if it comes with a free mini-bar and half-nekkid dancing girls.

    I don’t like Windoze, I don’t like it at all, but I’ve learned how to work with it to the point where I rarely ever have a problem, and if I DO have one, I can fix it.

    And, and this again is the REAL point: I can run anything and everything I want on it, and if one component of the box irritates me, I can pull it out and choose from about seventeen gazillion different replacement parts from as many manufacturers, ALL of them desperate for my business and constantly at each other’s throats in an attempt to make THEIR product better and cheaper than anybody else’s.

    Endless options for customization, competitive prices.

    THAT’S why I’m a PC user.

    As to the Mac vs PC wars, that’s all just good fun. I laugh as much at jokes about PCs as I do at jokes about Macs.

  29. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon

    Hey I even laugh at the current generation of Mac ads. They ARE funny. Even if the PC isn’t (usually) quite that bad… certainly not if you actually know how to use it properly…

    RH

  30. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I UNITED STATES

    Hey I even laugh at the current generation of Mac ads. They ARE funny.

    Laugh out loud funny at times too, I agree.

    My only issue with them is that I can’t stand the unkempt slacker looks of the twit playing the Mac.

    Yeah, yeah, I know they’re going for “cool and casual” vs “stiff and stuck up”, but did they HAVE to choose somebody who looks like he’s fucking FWENCH in his personal attire and hygiene habits?

    But the ads are still funny. I love how the Windoze guy freezes up constantly, and my current favorite is the therapy session ad.

  31. Unregistered Comment by Clarion

    I can run anything and everything I want on it, and if one component of the box irritates me, I can pull it out and choose from about seventeen gazillion different replacement parts from as many manufacturers, ALL of them desperate for my business and constantly at each other’s throats in an attempt to make THEIR product better and cheaper than anybody else’s.

    That’s exactly why I hate PC’s. I work in computers for a living, and I cannot think of a more odious way to spend my evening than fixing and tweaking and poking and upgrading and customizing and trying to get the damned thing to work the way it was “designed”. I don’t play games, and Macs have the software for EVERYTHING else. Mac software has gotten far, far better over the years, and the days when what they can run being severely limited are gone. My Macintosh works, seamlessly, flawlessly, every time, without me having to fight with it.

  32. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon

    Let me guess, Clarion, you work in fixing computers in some way or another, right? Or is it sales?

    At the very least, I’m almost certain it isn’t programming. That’s why I am a programmer, because what you hate so much I LOVE. Granted once I get things working I want them to stay working… but they almost always do, so that’s not a problem for me either. And I want to be able to build my system EXACTLY the way I want it without having to pay some shmuck on the phone an extra $500 or more to put it together for me. Which is one of the reasons I don’t have a laptop, though I will eventually get one if I can ever afford the high-end one I want…

    But to each their own.

    RH

  33. Beeblebrox Comment by Beeblebrox UNITED STATES

    The REASON is that I won’t pay through the nose for a platform that is entirely proprietary and only runs about 10% of the software I WANT to run on it, even if it comes with a free mini-bar and half-nekkid dancing…

    This sounds like a rhetorical technique that a liberal would use against a conservative. Shame on you Misha for spouting such disinformation.

    A. The one platform that yet remains proprietary is the PC platform. Macs run OS X, Windows and Linux. Furthermore, there are hundreds of customized versions of Windows each of them proprietary for the box on which it is running. Try pulling the HP version of the Windows install disks (if they even gave them to you) and install them on a freshly formated drive in a Dell and see how well the machine runs after you do.

    B. Compare like features between HP and Dell to a Mac and you will find that the Mac is usually less expensive. Indeed, the top of the line MacPro is currently about $1000 LESS than a similarly equipped Dell or HP box.

    C. I would dearly love to see your list of Windows apps of which are only 10% of a similar feature-set are not available for the Mac. Unless you are a gamer the average person will have a selection of about 40,000 apps he will never use for the PC vs. about 10,000 he will never use for the Mac. Additionally, Macs come with about $500 worth of software.

    The best consumer grade photo app, movie app, and DVD authoring app come for free with OS X. The industry standard pro video editing app (Final Cut), the industry standard pro compositing app (Shake), the industry standard pro sequencing app (Logic) all run exclusively on OS X. The entire Adobe suite, the entire MS Office suite, Maya, and thousands of other applications are available for the Mac and most of them run more stably than they do on the PC. This is why the big graphics and ad agencies run OS X. They can’t afford to have their machines “blue screen” while under deadline.

    Although the video is mildly amusing, the best humor requires a kernel of truth. Complaining about the manner in which an OS runs because you are too stupid to use it is not a basis for humor. Would PC users find it funny if a video had someone complaining how Windows was retarded because when you tried to open up Windows Explorer in the column mode all it did was show you a bunch of icons? Now that would be comedy ;-)

  34. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I UNITED STATES

    A. The one platform that yet remains proprietary is the PC platform. Macs run OS X, Windows and Linux.

    Why would I want to waste processor cycles on making my computer pretend to be something it’s not when I can get one that’s designed to do it?

    Furthermore, there are hundreds of customized versions of Windows each of them proprietary for the box on which it is running. Try pulling the HP version of the Windows install disks (if they even gave them to you) and install them on a freshly formated drive in a Dell and see how well the machine runs after you do.

    That’s why I never buy a proprietary machine, be it a Mac, a Dell or an HP. I roll my own, so to speak.

    B. Compare like features between HP and Dell to a Mac and you will find that the Mac is usually less expensive. Indeed, the top of the line MacPro is currently about $1000 LESS than a similarly equipped Dell or HP box.

    See previous comment. I can build it even cheaper if it is “None of the Above.” Most of all, I have a CHOICE. How many different machines can you build running MacOS that aren’t made up of Apple parts?

    C. I would dearly love to see your list of Windows apps of which are only 10% of a similar feature-set are not available for the Mac. Unless you are a gamer…

    I am. As WELL. If I wanted a $5,000 pocket calculator/typewriter, I’d have one of each gilded, but I like to kick back and have a spot of fun as well every now and again, and we ain’t talking PacMan either.

    Of course, I COULD get one machine for word processing (very pretty word processing, mind you) and one for having fun, but why bother if I can get a machine that will do both? And do it better and cheaper too.

  35. Beeblebrox Comment by Beeblebrox UNITED STATES

    Misha,

    I accept your answers as reasonable although I have a couple of observations.

    I can only go by my own experience of working in PC, Linux, and Mac support at the university level for the last 18 years so take this for what it is worth. I have run across many people who have used the line “I can build it cheaper myself” but this is only true in one context: that is, if you are doing it as a hobby. I can build a car myself for cheaper than Toyota can build it too but the difference is, Toyota’s car will have parts designed to work together and will be built in a fraction of the time that I can build my own car. However, if I am building the car for fun or avocationally, then it is hard to argue with my logic that I can build it for less even if it takes me years to do so and it is a pile of crap when I am done (not to say your home-built PC is crap but it will be nothing like the Mac as far as engineering is concerned).

    In my experience, most competent people who build their own PC end up spending at least a day doing so and another day troubleshooting it. This does not even account for the time of going online and researching what works best with what, visiting the local Frys for the parts, etc. Assuming you make more than minimum wage, I would bet that I can buy TWO comparable Macs for what you have spent in parts, travel time, research time, assembly time, troubleshooting time, OS install, and configuration on your one PC - unless your time is worth nothing in which case, I can probably only buy one Mac. :-)

    The other thing that is curious to me in your remarks (and I know this is all in good fun but I hate to see disinformation coming from these pages) is I don’t understand what you are saying about “wasting processor cycles”. All new Macs run Windows natively. Better than that, they can run OS X AND Windows simultaneously with Windows running at better than 95% of the native speed (which will still be faster than most PCs run Windows natively) at the same time as running OS X. So you get the best of both worlds. You can run in a virus free environment for everything Internet related and run your Windows apps that are not available for OS X.

    The above being the case, unless you like to spend your days building PCs there is no longer any reasons WHATSOEVER to buy a PC box when a comparable Mac will do twice as much for the same or less money.

    In my line of work I don’t want my competitors to know this because it gives me an edge but I would be remiss if I didn’t let my fellow conservative travelers know that you will be much more productive using one of the new Intel Macs than you ever thought possible.

    Cheers!

  36. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon

    Hmm now I’m curious as to what types of games you play, Emperor…

    Me I play mostly turn-based strategy. Which unfortunately cuts down on my options quite a bit. I’ll play RTS but only for multiplayer at a game night at a friends’ house. I just don’t enjoy the FPS stuff. Oh and I will play cards and poker and such.

    The last few weeks, bugs notwithstanding, I’ve been absolutely addicted to Space Empires V. Now that I’ve almost completed my review though it’s starting to wane a bit.

    What kinda stuff gets worked over in the Imperial Dungeons?

    RH

  37. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon

    OK, I had to do it…

    Beebs, can I at least trade in the )@($&)(*@$ one-button mouse?? I hate that thing. If I can have a three button mouse (I configure my mousewheel as the third button) I might actually consider a mac…

    Then again, I already have a good enough computer, so I have no need to buy anything anytime soon. Perhaps when I next upgrade tho… maybe…

    .

    Oh and one last note… my payment for my time is the enjoyment I get playing with the guts of the computer. The software setup, on the other hand… you may have a point there. But unless I’m forced to swap out a part because it’s broke and I really wanted to be playing a MP game online or something, I have no problem spending a few hours playing with the parts. And even when it is a broke part I’m being forced to swap, at least I can do it myself in an hour or two (worst case, often less) and be done. Can I do that with a Mac? Can I go to the store, buy a new DVD-RW drive (or whatever) and put it in myself? Because you used to not be able to. If you can now, frankly I say GREAT. Because I refuse to send my one and only computer off for three weeks because the only way I can get an upgrade done is send it to an authorized repair center. If that’s no longer a problem, then kudos to whomever at Mac was smart enough to allow that.

    RH

  38. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I UNITED STATES

    Thanks, Beeblebrox. I’m glad to hear that the new generation of Macs can run Windows (and thus all of the programs that most people actually run) without wasting processor time. The emulation nonsense was one of the reasons why I wouldn’t want a Mac. Glad to hear they got that fixed, really I am. Competition is good, and it always ends up helping us, the customers.

    That’s something, if I may digress for a moment, I never quite got. I doubt it if anybody who knows what they’re talking about will claim that Macs weren’t first with the WIMP interface that we all take for granted now. They invented it, everybody else, Bill Gates included, just imitated it. How the FUCK can somebody set industry standard in such a brilliant fashion and then piss it all away? I don’t get it.

    I suspect the crappy customer service, but that’s just me. If I buy a piece of equipment, I expect it to work, and if it doesn’t work, then I expect the vendor to fix it, no hassle, no charge, and YESTERDAY. If they don’t, if they fail one time, I won’t be doing business with them ever again.

    And I had to jump through fucking hoops to get my iPod fixed, something that a reputable company wouldn’t even think twice about fixing. I got it fixed after sending them copies of proof of purchase, paying for freight and giving them a sample of my firstborn’s blood for DNA testing.

    Any company that treats me like that can go fuck themselves for eternity, as far as I’m concerned. They fuck up, they fix it. I don’t have the time or the inclination to do a damn thing for them to get that done, because I already paid for that. If they don’t get that simple concept, then they can go suck Osama’s dick.

    I expect my vendors to treat me like G-d, and if they don’t, there are plenty other fish in that ocean. No excuses. You lose me as a customer for piss-poor behavior, you’ve lost me for life, no matter how “chic” you think your product is. You wouldn’t have a job without customers, your customers owe you NOTHING, so you’d better fucking well be prepared to perform fellatio on us 24/7 if we want you to or you can go do it for spare change in public restrooms.

    As to treating computers as a hobby, you’ve certainly got a point there. I think it’s fun to tinker with my box, and I get immense satisfaction out of having a humming piece of equipment in the end that has everything I want, and nothing I don’t. I realize full well that it’s not what everybody wants, they just want something that plugs in and runs, and for them a Mac might be the best choice. Good for them, but it doesn’t work for me.

    Diff’rent strokes for diff’rent folks.

    Hmm now I’m curious as to what types of games you play, Emperor…

    Me I play mostly turn-based strategy. Which unfortunately cuts down on my options quite a bit. I’ll play RTS but only for multiplayer at a game night at a friends’ house. I just don’t enjoy the FPS stuff. Oh and I will play cards and poker and such.

    Pretty much the same here, Robert.

    Turn-based strategy for brain exercise (RTS is only good for teaching you how to move a mouse really quickly, and there are shareware programs available for that if you don’t have a functioning brain), simulations and the occasional FPS for relaxation. What can I say? I like watching things blow up.

    Oh, and RP, if it’s done right and covers the right subject matter. I love the two Knights of the Old Republic games, for instance.

  39. Unregistered Comment by CKO1986 UNITED STATES

    The Mac is the spawn of Satan.

  40. LC Tremor Comment by LC Tremor UNITED STATES

    Hey, I got the parody part of the video, that’s what I was really laughing at (that and the rant itself).

    The new commercials I’m not very happy with either… I really don’t like the fact that the scuzzy hippy is being so condescending… In my mind, that’s not how to represent yourself, especially when you are try to appeal to the non-hippy segment (c’mon, we know the arts-y types like Macs, but we aren’t trying to sell to them.)

  41. Unregistered Comment by Bushwack UNITED STATES

    Funny, But the truth is: They are becoming close friends. I have a Intel 2 core duo that I run WindowsOS as well as the OSX, and flip between them with out restarting or the old Command control delete…
    The best thing about Mac is becoming a focal point for windows. and vice versa.

    I do somethings on the Windows side, software is more easily accessible (For now)

    Internet use is strictly Mac, for security and ease of use….

    Now the only problem I have is with Liberal mac or Pc users… Everything else is just a waste of time.

    I’d rather fight liberals and Muslim fanatics than tech geeks anyway.

  42. Beeblebrox Comment by Beeblebrox UNITED STATES

    Robert said:

    Beebs, can I at least trade in the )@($&)(*@$ one-button mouse?? I hate that thing. If I can have a three button mouse (I configure my mousewheel as the third button) I might actually consider a mac…

    Hey Robert, where have you been?

    First, I have been using a multi button mouse with my Mac for about 10 years. They are about $10 over at Circuit City. Now why did they used to come with a single button mouse you ask. I posed that question to our university Apple rep about 8 years ago or so and his answer was pretty good. “Steve Jobs wants to keep the 1 button mouse for now because he likes the idea of a computer that only needs a simple device that anyone can use, to run it. But if it bothers you, go and buy a two button mouse, the one that comes with the Mac is free anyway.” And really Jobs is right about this. Most novice computer users have trouble with the second button even though the rest of us geeks could never live without it.

    Now, as for the Mac not coming with a multi-button mouse, get with the program man. The multi-button Apple Mighty Mouse started shipping over a year ago with all desktop Macs. It is an extremely cool 5 button mouse with integral trackball the size of a pea so that you can scroll both up and down like a conventional scroll wheel but also sideways or diagonally. Very nice for working in a graphics environment.

    How many PCs ship with a five button mouse with integrated trackball, hmm?

  43. Puddle Pirate Comment by Puddle Pirate UNITED STATES

    Personally, I love upgrading and tinkering with PC’s. Always trying to build a faster FPS mousetrap.

    However, I finally got enough put away in the slush fund to go for the pinnacle of computer gaming perfection last year.

    My Mach V from the wonderful folks at Falcon Northwest will not only beat the everloving shit out of any Mac on the market, it will steal its lunch money to boot.

    This monument of metal and silicon runs F.E.A.R., Half Life 2, and Far Cry in the highest display modes SIMULTANEOUSLY without even getting warmed up.

    Mac may be a wonderful platform for a number of different industries, but they are (as has been said earlier) the spawn of satan from a gamer’s perspective.

    There’s a lot to be said for OS simplicity and cute/unique case design, but I’m gonna stick with RAID 0 Raptor drives from Western Digital and SLI Nvidia 7800 GTX cards for the time being.

  44. Unregistered Comment by Ranger REPUBLIC OF KOREA

    My Mach V from the wonderful folks at Falcon Northwest will not only beat the everloving shit out of any Mac on the market, it will steal its lunch money to boot.

    Bold words considering that this so called “evolving shit” will be releasing the intel eight processor units early next year. Good luck stealing its lunch money.

  45. Unregistered Comment by peterobinson UNITED STATES

    Emperor -

    if I may digress for a moment, I never quite got. I doubt it if anybody who knows what they’re talking about will claim that Macs weren’t first with the WIMP interface…

    Uh-oh!
    They weren’t…. the first with the WIMP interface was the Xerox Star, part of a would-be full office-automation system. Late 70s?
    I think it was Jobs who got a look at it at Xerox Labs in Palo Alto, and decided to copy it. I saw ‘em at a couple of places. Pretty sure that Xerox used a proprietary chip and it took HP using the Motorola 68000 in their workstations for a few years for the volume to get up to where the price could come down into the PC/MAC range.

    “Those were the days…” when IBM could get away with designing a minicomputer around an Intel 8086 16-bit chip…. and, natcherly NOBODY would need minicomputer power in a PC, so an 8088 with 64 or 128KB main memory would do “just fine”…..
    By then I was selling HPs…. and I had the hardest time trying to getcustomers who just HAD to run Lotus 123 to get a machine with at least 384KB to be able to actually RUN it…..

    There was a period when PC columnists were casting about for a “better” abbreviation than WIMP and GUI… someone wag suggested Interactive Kartoon Interface to make it an IKI GUI… another fellow suggested that some developer come up with a DWIM (DO What I Meant) interface for rank amateurs… I think MS tried to respond to that one with “BOB”….

    People started to suspect that there might be “a problem” with this kind of naming convention when “the next big thing” was going to be the “Pen Interface System”….

  46. Sir Christopher Comment by Sir Christopher UNITED STATES

    jasioasoapiduOIUOISUDDOIYF(*(*&@)(#*^%^&!(*&^(&@^#$

  47. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon

    His Sithliness sez:

    Pretty much the same here, Robert.

    Turn-based strategy for brain exercise (RTS is only good for teaching you how to move a mouse really quickly, and there are shareware programs available for that if you don’t have a functioning brain), simulations and the occasional FPS for relaxation. What can I say? I like watching things blow up.

    Oh, and RP, if it’s done right and covers the right subject matter. I love the two Knights of the Old Republic games, for instance.

    Ah that’s the genre I was forgetting. I knew there was something else I played occasionally but never got seriously into… but yeah I played the old Baldur’s Gate stuff, that was pretty good. Also played some REALLY old SpellJammer “Pirates of Realmspace” or something similar a long time ago. And I got stuck on EverCrack for awhile… yuk. I guess to some degree that’s why I stick to much to TBS now, long games sometimes but at least they (eventually) end! And I guess I’m not completly *against* FPS either, I just very rarely play them. But seeing stuff blow up CAN be fun from time to time.

    So, is there a position for an Imperial Gaming Advisor or somesuch? And if so could I put in an application?

    Beeblebrox sez:

    Hey Robert, where have you been?

    First, I have been using a multi button mouse with my Mac for about 10 years. […] How many PCs ship with a five button mouse with integrated trackball, hmm?

    In a closet. OK, just kidding, but seriously Beebs I’ve probably been in the same room as a desktop mac a grand total of maybe 10 times in about 5+ years. It’s not a matter of avoidance either, they just simply aren’t something I run into as a windoze programmer, I only see them when I go talk to somebody who has one. And aside from 7 months when a gal or two with macs sat in the same classroom as I did, I haven’t seen a laptop mac more than once or twice over the same period. And the girls who had them all had the old single-button mouse. Can I help it if when all I ever saw was the one-button I assumed that was still the standard?

    As for the fancy mice… Standard? Probably not many. Available upon request, quite a few, I’m pretty sure. Or at least you used to be able to, maybe they don’t anymore (haven’t checked in awhile) but I’m pretty sure Dell at least used to offer similar mice with their laptops…

    Anyway, I will keep that in mind, as I said I have no need for a new computer anytime soon, but I will have to pay more attention to the options next time I buy a new one. I probably still will just upgrade my current system — as I AM capable of doing that it would be far cheaper than ANY top-of-the-line system from either PC OR Mac — but I’ll plan to keep the alternatives in mind as well.

    RH

  48. Puddle Pirate Comment by Puddle Pirate UNITED STATES

    will be releasing the intel eight processor units early next year. Good luck stealing its lunch money.

    And if said processor should prove a worthy addition, then i’ll upgrade my system. Which is the entire point of my issue with the Mac. You’re stuck with what you got.

    Secondly, processor speed is not the determinant factor of the raw computing power of any system. It is simply one of many factors.

    In general, buying a proprietary system advertised as having a super speedy processor is kinda like a group of kids running around the playground with arms linked. One of them may very well be the school track star, but the group is going to move at the speed of the fat kid in the back who considers twinkies to be one of the central food groups.

    The power of a computer system is determined by its slowest member, not the fastest, which is why I consider most proprietary systems being hawked at your local Best Buy or …shudder… CompUSA to be deliberate scams. It’s like putting a section of 8″ pipe on a 4″ line and then wondering why more water isn’t flowing out.

    Several years ago, myself and several of my buddies put our custom built/upgraded 1.x intel systems up against the brand new intel 2.4 systems, and in every case, wiped the floor with them. In every single benchmark test we ran.

    Fast processors are nice, but don’t really account for that much. If the rest of the system ain’t fast as well, you’re wasting money.

    So, when you go out to by your newfangled intel 8 system, remember to check and upgrade as necessary the following:

    Bus
    Chipset
    Drive RPM and R/W speed
    RAM type
    RAM amount
    Internal RAM clock speed
    Cables
    Ports
    Number and type of onboard GPU’s
    Amount of dedicated GPU memory
    DirectX version (if you have a PC)
    Graphics driver version
    Cooling system
    Power supply
    RAID (if system is configured as such)

    Except, if you use a Mac, you really can’t change most of that stuff, can you? Damn.

  49. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon

    No kidding Pirate, remember the old 386SX crap? *shudder*. I pity the poor morons who paid $20 less than a DX to get a computer less than half as good.

    If your computer is slow, the average user thinks they need a faster processor. 90% of the time, they are wrong. Usually it’s either RAM or HD they need to improve (or both).

    RH

  50. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I UNITED STATES

    Uh-oh!
    They weren’t…. the first with the WIMP interface was the Xerox Star, part of a would-be full office-automation system. Late 70s?
    I think it was Jobs who got a look at it at Xerox Labs in Palo Alto, and decided to copy it. I saw ‘em at a couple of places.

    I know that, you nit-picker :wink_ee:

    I suppose I should’ve phrased it differently: The Macs were the first to take WIMP and GUI and bring it to the masses, a standard that is now so pervasive (not to mention that it just makes plain sense. Command line interface *shudder!* I still have flashbacks to the bad old days when that was all we had and we just had to deal with it) that to launch a new computer/handheld/notebook/PDA/whatever without it is a sure way to make your company tank overnight.

    What I’m trying to say is that a lot of younger Windows users have this silly notion that Bill Gates invented that interface.

  51. Beeblebrox Comment by Beeblebrox UNITED STATES

    Puddle said:

    So, when you go out to by your newfangled intel 8 system, remember to check and upgrade as necessary the following: [followed by a list of things that few people ever upgrade]

    Puddle,

    Yes, upgradability is nice but even in a PC boxe rarely is anything inside ever upgraded (unless it fails, which admittedly, is a common problem with PCs given the low quality of parts inside - we have dozens of burned out Dell power supplies sitting around our tech bench as a testament as to how even the premier PC box makers cut corners.) Meanwhile I have NEVER seen a power supply go out on a Mac. This is not to say that Macs don’t have hardware issues now and again but like I said earlier, I ran a big university IT operation and we routinely had Dells and HPs show up on the door DOA. Again, that never would be seen with a Mac.

    The reality is, only RAM, HDs, and sometimes graphic cards need upgrading for 95% of the populace so the fact that you like to have the ability to put in a different bus makes you a rarity. Nevertheless, in the areas that count, I can upgrade my MacPro Quad Xeon faster than anyone could upgrade any of those same components in their PC.

    And the bigger reality is that the bottleneck on any PC is the OS which, last I looked, you could not upgrade to get it any faster than it currently is. Meanwhile if I were running my Quad in a native Windows mode and I one day decided that Windows was too clunky to use for real world computing (which is not hard to imagine) then guess what?! I CAN UPGRADE TO A BETTER OS BY SIMPLY INSTALLING MAC OS X!

    Now, if you have a way, on your highly customizable garage-built PC to upgrade Windows to OS X then maybe you have a point, until that happens, it seems to me that you are simply asserting that you have a fancy customizable car that runs on steam. Time to move to gasoline my friend :-)

  52. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon

    Beebs sez:

    we have dozens of burned out Dell power supplies sitting around our tech bench as a testament as to how even the premier PC box makers cut corners

    *snicker*… *chortle*… BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!

    Dell, a PREMIERE PC box maker? HAHAHAHAHA!

    Dell is a POPULAR manufacturer precisely for one reason and one reason only… they are CHEAP. But premiere? Not by a long shot.

    RH

  53. Beeblebrox Comment by Beeblebrox UNITED STATES

    Chuckle away Robert but Dell uses the same basic power supplies as nearly every other manufacturer. And the machines in which we have had the failures were high end (though not top of the line).

    But point taken, there are certainly better box makers than Dell. I think what I am asserting is that of all the Windows PC builders out there right now, Apple (which now builds a Windows PC after all) makes the best machine, bar none.

  54. Beeblebrox Comment by Beeblebrox UNITED STATES

    Oh, and for information sake regarding the need for upgradeability on the Mac towers. There are about 4 million different configurations available from Apple. But at the risk of sounding like an Apple fanboy (fanman?), here might be a response to the upgradability issue on PCs with regard to Macs:

    Bus - The MacPro has 1.33GHz, 64-bit dual independent frontside buses so that is not the bottleneck.
    Chipset - Runs the fastest chipset currently available for any desktop machine (Quad Xeon)
    Drive RPM and R/W speed - completely upgradable on a MacPro which can handle up to 3TB of internal drive space
    RAM type - Even PC logic boards require specific RAM types. The MacPros, being the beasts that they are, require fully buffered 667mhz ECC RAM
    RAM amount - Upgradable to 16 Gigs
    Internal RAM clock speed - hmm, don’t know about this.
    Cables - every machine has cables you can swap so this is not that big of deal.
    Ports - The MacPro (and actually pretty much every other Mac) has a tremendous amount of port flexibility. The MacPro sports:
    Two FireWire 800 ports (one on front panel, one on back panel)
    Two FireWire 400 ports (one on front panel, one on back panel)
    Five USB 2.0 ports (two on front panel, three on back panel)
    Two USB 1.1 ports on included keyboard
    Front-panel headphone minijack and speaker
    Optical digital audio input and output Toslink ports
    Analog stereo line-level input and output minijacks

    Number and type of onboard GPU’s -The MacPro can be upgraded to drive 8 displays, with four of those being the 30″ Apple Cinema display!

    Amount of dedicated GPU memory - dependent on the video card which, in the case of the MacPro is a double-wide PCI Express fully bandwidth adjustable bus which handles cards that range from 256MB of GDDR2 SDRAM to 512MB of GDDR3 SDRAM
    Graphics driver version - I prefer to use the latest graphics drivers but OS X lets you run older ones if you want.
    Cooling system - I have yet to see any PC, custom or not, with as elegant of cooling system as in the Mac Towers.
    Power supply - Don’t need to upgrade a PS that is already heftier than necessary. However, they are replaceable

    Take a look at the spec page at Apple if you want to see a piece of hardware unlike anything else any computer manufacturer is building.

  55. Puddle Pirate Comment by Puddle Pirate UNITED STATES

    Hmm…a fellow tech head. This could be fun.

    I’m curious to hear your thoughts on a few questions.
    Might there be a reason why the high-end gaming community, which prizes raw power over all other things, including manufacturer, OS, and price, still continues to use PC’s?

    The question is made even more pointed now that Apple machines have the ability to run the Windows OS, thereby removing the “software isn’t made for Mac” argument entirely.

    I maintain that anyone claiming a comparison between anything coming from Apple and the custom machines being created by Falcon Northwest, Alienware, Velocity Micro, and Voodoo (among many of their also notable peers)has some serious reading to do.

    But don’t take my word for it. Let’s take a look at some of the industry headlines for the past several years.

    Computer Gaming World - June 2004 Editors Choice
    Falcon Northwest Mach V
    “…the Mach V scored the fastest framerates in every game we tested. That’s right - every single one…”

    PC Gamer - June 2004 Editors Choice
    Falcon Northwest Mach V
    “Year in and year out, Falcon Northwest builds some of the absolute best machines money can buy”

    Maximum PC - April 2005
    Falcon Northwest Mach V
    “The Mach V now holds the record for every benchmark we use to gauge a PC’s performance”

    Extreme Tech - Fall 2005
    Fastest ‘off the shelf’ gaming system - Falcon Mach V

    PC Magazine - December 2005 Editors Choice
    Falcon Northwest Mach V

    I could go on for many more lines, but I don’t feel like doing that much typing. I have a definite bias towards the Mach V because I own one, but anyone wishing to take the time to look up any of the above mentioned articles will also find ample praise and astonishing benchmark scores for machines from the other high-end PC manufacturers, most posting scores very close to the Mach V, and exceeding it occasionally in certain categories.

    Notably absent from the discussion are any of Apple’s systems. Any. Not a one.

    I’m not going to get into serious tech discussions on this forum, because that’s not the gist of this site. I’ll save that for Tom’s Hardware or something similar, so as not to cause most readers here to pass out from boredom and possibly injure themselves in the process.

    So I’ll leave it at this. Given the huge audience that PC Magazine, PC Gamer, CGW, Wired, CPU Magazine etc. etc. influence, and seeing as how said publications regularly publish industry tests and benchmarks, why is it that Apple never submits any of their supposed ’superior’ systems for tests? If they have such a great product, why don’t they put it out in a national forum and prove how much better it is than its peer group?

    Final note, cause’ I couldn’t resist: Looks are no substitute for performance. I don’t give a rat’s ass how elegant the Mac tower’s cooling system is, I care about how cold said system keeps components. I’ll take water cooling over elegant any day of the week.

  56. Beeblebrox Comment by Beeblebrox UNITED STATES

    Puddle said:

    I’ll take water cooling over elegant any day of the week.

    I’ll do this one first because it is the easiest. Mac towers used to be liquid cooled (not really water, more like coolant) but that was when they had the G5 and ran hot. The new Xeon machines don’t so they don’t need liquid cooling.

    Now for the more interesting discussion:

    Might there be a reason why the high-end gaming community, which prizes raw power over all other things, including manufacturer, OS, and price, still continues to use PC’s?

    There are two ways to answer this: a.) by throwing it back at you:

    “Might there be a reason why the high-end video editing community, which prizes raw power over all other things, including manufacturer, OS, and price, still continues to use Macs?”

    Or b.) looking at the history of the PC industry where cheap hardware gave it the home market where gaming thrives.

    Of course, any gaming connoisseur knows that a couple of the best graphics intensive games ever developed for a modern computer, Myst/Riven and Halo, were developed first for the Mac. This is because these games required the computing power and OS capabilities that only Macs could provide. However, that is not enough. You have to also have market share amongst a demographic that wants to play games - kids and teens.

    Macs never really had this audience because of their initial high cost. Macs were developed for two primary target audiences; the professional community (scientific, higher ed, publishing, film-making, broadcast, music, etc.), and the novice computing community (any place where the user doesn’t want to know how the machine works but just that it will).

    Until recently, Apple has been content to meet the needs of these two groups which has given it a total market share estimated to be around 12-15% of the planet’s computing using population and about 10% of the market in the US.

    That has now changed with the introduction of machines that can run Windows. However, Apple is not really interested in promoting its machines as PCs so you are not going to see them talking about how fast you can run a Windows based game. Their goal is, simply stated, to get Windows users comfortable enough to use their hardware and then let curiosity and the desire migrate them to OS X. Although there are a lot of games for the Mac including WoW and Quake, many of them are ports that are not optimized for the Mac so they run inefficiently. Game developers are also moving more toward consoles so there is even less reason for them to produce for the Mac given its marketshare. Now that Apple has migrated to Intel, however, I think we will see more games for the Mac.

    Bottom line, there is a reason that Lord of the Rings was composited with Macs (running Shake). PCs were not up to the challenge. The reason that the latest and greatest games don’t run on Macs? Because Apple long ago decided that the gaming community was not its target audience and the game developer community agreed.

  57. Unregistered Comment by peterobinson UNITED STATES

    Misha -

    I know that, you nit-picker

    Those nits seem to get around….

    I suppose I should’ve phrased it differently: The Macs were the first to take WIMP and GUI and bring it to the masses, a standard that is now so pervasive (not to mention that it just makes plain sense.

    I can easily agree with the first part, although we’llhave to agree to disagree about just how much “sense” it makes.

    Command line interface *shudder!* I still have flashbacks to the bad old days when that was all we had and we just had to deal with it)

    Out of “curiosity”, are you saying that you don’t use ANY keystroke commands?

    Then, again, I’m “unreconstructed” and do all of my actual “work” on a moldy old DOS-box. I had a long-running affair with any and all multi-user and multi-tasking DOS-like systems…. actually a rather desperate effort to find ANYthing to counter the cretinous/criminal MicroShrott dynasty.

    OS X is basically no more than a gussied-up BSD Unix.

    that to launch a new computer/handheld/notebook/PDA/whatever without it is a sure way to make your company tank overnight.

    Probably.

    What I’m trying to say is that a lot of younger Windows users have this silly notion that Bill Gates invented that interface.

    You will NEVER hear me saying that Gates or MS ever *invented* a damned thing! Although I do have to give Evil Billy his “props” for bringing absolutely cut-throat business practices to bear on the totally unprepared nerd-community.

  58. Beeblebrox Comment by Beeblebrox UNITED STATES

    Peter says:

    OS X is basically no more than a gussied-up BSD Unix.

    True enough. In the same way that…

    The BMW X5 SAV is basically no more than a gussied up Mini Cooper
    The Space Shuttle program is a gussied up version of the Mercury program
    Windows Vista is a gussied up variant of DOS

    and so on.

    OS X is a combination of BSD and NeXT code with a huge amount of new technologies added in to make it stable, virus-free, and suitable for use as a professional grade OS. In fact, I argue, for a host of reasons, that it is the only OS suitable for the professional desktop given its security features, its “core” technologies of Audio, Video, Graphics, and (soon with OS 10.5), Animation, and its intuitiveness.

    The GUI is brilliant but it is not what makes OS X my favorite OS. Rather, it is the fact that it has the same well thought-out industrial design as its hardware counterpart. Microsoft is still years behind Apple in this regard and suffers from a congenital problem of copying (poorly) interface and core features first envisioned in Cupertino. For once I wish that MS would come up with something original and show everyone that it actually knows how to design a GUI.

  59. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I UNITED STATES

    Out of “curiosity”, are you saying that you don’t use ANY keystroke commands?

    Not at all. Sometimes it’s just the only way to get done what I want done. But the flashbacks to MSDOS’s atrocious “edlin” are horrid. I may have to sue for emotional distress one day.

    I can tinker around with command lines all day if I have to, since that’s what I grew up with, but that doesn’t mean that I have to like it. Every time somebody comes out with a better and more intuitive way of doing it, the Baby Jesus smiles.

  60. Puddle Pirate Comment by Puddle Pirate UNITED STATES

    Of course, any gaming connoisseur knows that a couple of the best graphics intensive games ever developed for a modern computer, Myst/Riven and Halo, were developed first for the Mac. This is because these games required the computing power and OS capabilities that only Macs could provide. However, that is not enough. You have to also have market share amongst a demographic that wants to play games - kids and teens.

    BWAHAHAHAHA!!
    Myst?! MYST?! GRAPHICALLY INTENSIVE?!
    stop, dear G-d, stop it already…I can’t take it…it hurts..must..stop..laughing..ow..

    Bit of advice, my friend. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge and professional expertise in systems and hardware. However, beware assuming that makes you an expert in areas where you have little knowledge.

    For your information, the current demographic for the bulk of computer games is not ‘kids and teens’, It is, in fact, the 18 to 28 range. Hence, the vast majority of today’s title’s carry the M rating (no sale unless 17). Don’t believe me?
    Stop by the games aisle next time you’re at Frys or Best Buy and look at stickers.

    Myst and Riven are a series of rendered static images with short embedded animations. Very high quality rendered images to be sure, but static nonetheless. I have played, and completed, both (over the course of many hours). On a Windows PC. A relatively low-end Windows PC. No problems.

    The rendering technology that went into Half Life 2 makes Riven look like a small child playing with an etch-a-sketch. Liquids in HL2 are rendered three times (once for reflections, once for subsurface, and once for the medium itself), in a real-time free-rotate virtual world.

    You want graphically intensive? Try running Far Cry, Doom 3, or F.E.A.R., the current ‘Big 3′ in the industry for stress-test benchmarks.

    Halo was a great program, groundbreaking in many ways. So was Counterstrike. So was Half Life. So was Unreal Tournament. So was the granddaddy of them all, Wolf 3d and it’s successor, Doom. None of them would cause any modern PC to so much as hiccup. The gaming community moved on a long time ago. I’d suggest you do the same.

    As to your foray into nitpicking, I am well aware that some liquid cooling systems use fluids other than water due to the thermal properties of the medium. Some use straight H2O. Some let you choose.
    It is also a basic fact that the colder you get a CPU, the more you raise the bar on what clock speeds can be obtained.
    There is no air-cooling system in existance that cools CPU’s as effectively as liquid systems, water (or other liquids with appropriate thermal properties)is simply a better medium for heat transfer than air. Any statement to the contrary is severely misguided.
    The new intel chips are packing more into less. Eventually, desktop processors will reach a point where the circuits are so close together that heat expansion causes unintended connections unless the chip is supercooled, but we’re not there yet. However, it is safe to say that processors will be generating increasing amounts of heat as we progress through time.
    I submit that a system which would not experience a performace gain from addition of a water cooling kit to its CPU and/or GPU(s) is a system running a rather shitty excuse for a processor.

    I’d consider watercooling a Mac, but only if I had to take a piss.

  61. Unregistered Comment by peterobinson UNITED STATES

    Beebs -

    Are you related to Zhaft-trod?

    Peter says

    Just make that Pete…

    “OS X is basically no more than a gussied-up BSD Unix.”

    True enough. In the same way that…

    … a MAC-abuser lives in something even remotely similar to the same reality as everyone else?

    OS X is a combination of BSD and NeXT code

    Now THERE’S a “real winner”!

    with a huge amount of new technologies added in to make it stable, virus-free, and suitable for use as a professional grade OS.

    So, it needed lotsa fixin’ to make it even marginally useful.

    In fact, I argue, for a host of reasons, that it is the only OS suitable for the professional desktop given its security features, its “core” technologies of Audio, Video, Graphics, and (soon with OS 10.5), Animation, and its intuitiveness.

    ??? Most “Artists” will fight you “tooth and nail” over being called “professionals”.

    The GUI is brilliant but it is not what makes OS X my favorite OS. Rather, it is the fact that it has the same well thought-out industrial design as its hardware counterpart.

    There is no such thing as a “brilliant” GUI. Fewer than 10% of computer users specialize in anything that can benefit from whatever “goodies” an Apple “product” can provide.
    Most work on computers involves/uses text and numbers.

    Microsoft is still years behind Apple in this regard and suffers from a congenital problem of copying (poorly) interface and core features first envisioned in Cupertino.

    I’m fairly sure you’ll never catch me saying anything even remotely positive about MicroSchrott.
    This doesn’t mean that I think any better (or even as well) about Apple.

    For once I wish that MS would come up with something original and show everyone that it actually knows how to design a GUI.

    “If wishes were fishes…”?
    Things would smell pretty fishy….

  62. Unregistered Comment by peterobinson UNITED STATES

    Out of “curiosity”, are you saying that you don’t use ANY keystroke commands?

    Not at all. Sometimes it’s just the only way to get done what I want done. But the flashbacks to MSDOS’s atrocious “edlin” are horrid. I may have to sue for emotional distress one day.

    Yah… edlin, the “take-off” on the even more atrocious Unix editor, WAS “horrid” to say the least.

    I can tinker around with command lines all day if I have to, since that’s what I grew up with, but that doesn’t mean that I have to like it.

    Ditto, although IMO, the keystroke drop-down menu systems are probably the fastest and easiest command interface to date….. strangely, those are still supported in Winduhs (and, guessing, the so-wonderful OS X)

    Every time somebody comes out with a better and more intuitive way of doing it, the Baby Jesus smiles.

    Hopefully, the Baby Jesus will keep on smilin’ on us all.

  63. CiSSnarl5.7 Comment by CiSSnarl5.7 KUWAIT

    I’m not going to enter the fray about MS versus Mac…that way leads to madness!!

    But as a builder …I’ll have to side with Puddle Pirate on the liquid cooling.

    There simply is no better medium and I’ve built 3-4 Danger Den / AMD / XP based boxes that with the LC installed were simply astounding.

    Without the fans on my radiator running, and just letting the pump do the work I never saw either the video card or CPU (yes I cool both with liquid) breaking more than 100-105 degrees F. Thats overclocked and under extreme 90% loads, at Idle a very cool 80-90 degrees was my norm.

    Obviously a Danger Den set up is exotic and pricey and it’s not for the faint of heart, seeing liquid flowing scant inches form a 1500 dollar M/B GPU and CPU combo might give some a case of the willy nillies..but the “wow” factor is a gas!!…LOL.

    The down side of LC is the somewhat cumbersome gear you have to install, I don’t really buy off on the external cooling bit, i.e. external convection towers, they just don’t seem to work as effectivly in bench marks I’ve read on line so all my LC including the pump and tank is internal to the case except for the Black Ice III radiator hung on the back of the box. (For those not in the know about what I am babbleing about …the Black Ice III radiator is… basicly a refurbished HEATER CORE from a Chevrolet Chevette, yes I have CAR parts in my PC…)Having said that the tower I use is the ThermalTake Khandalf..and its HUGE….truly effective LC IMHO one is going to cost and two take up some room, there’s really no way around that if you want LC to give you a the best return on your investment.
    SIdenote: For anyone just getting an itch to try water or liquid…I would say try Thermaltake’s CPU cooling set up first before you go off the deep end, it’s cheap it does work rather well all things considered and it is a great system to learn with.

    I’ve had the LC machine torn apart for the past few months as I work on other projects and the machine I am using to write this is a air cooled Mountain Mods box that I use for my everyday work and gaming. It’s an AMD Dual Core DFI based gaming rig and I have hit 92,000 on a Aquamark bench test with out over clocking but I wouldnt ever dare push it as hard as a water cooled system.
    F.E.A.R, Doom3, TombRaider, Far Cry, nothing phases it in the least… however I use high end components and I avoid the overclocking on this one for the most part. I might tweak the GPU a little butt hats about as far as I want to go as it’s my main machine and I have no back up to it currently.

    Anyhell Prior to it’s shut down; the LC tower I have was running an AMD 4400 2.2 GhZ Single core CPU and a DFI NF4 Lanparty board. With that set up and full blown water cooling I safely attained CPU speeds of just under 3.2 and OC’d the 7600gtx 256 MB Video card with out so much of a whimper, I forget the RAM clockings I used but it was scoring as high as the mountain mods box I’m currently using; which btw in addition to the dual core CPU the Mountain Mods box also has the new Nvidia based 1GB 7950 G2 for a video card vrs the older 7600gtx in the liquid cooled box…so you can see the benifits of LC instantly when you compare the two boxes, and how hard you can push a LC’d box vrs the air cooled….now if you really want to go nuts..look into liquid nitrogen cooling… :tongue_wink_ee:

  64. Puddle Pirate Comment by Puddle Pirate UNITED STATES

    Seen the new Sanyo Denki LC that Intel is promoting?
    Veeery interesting. Tom’s hardware has a review up on it.
    Not quite as effective as a full scale kit, but the thing is friggin’ tiny and a chimp could install it. It still beats the hell out of fans. Cheap too.
    Methinks Intel is making some moves to start shipping LC standard with certain setups. Kinda dovetails nicely with their current forays into combined microprocessors, no?

  65. CiSSnarl5.7 Comment by CiSSnarl5.7 KUWAIT

    Methinks Intel is making some moves to start shipping LC standard with certain setups. Kinda dovetails nicely with their current forays into combined microprocessors, no?

    Mmmm Yeah I wouldn’t be surprised to see LC go mainstream on high end machines in the next 18 months or so…wish I had the endless budgets the commerical guys do…LOL.

  66. Unregistered Comment by peterobinson UNITED STATES

    Miscellaneous trivia….

    I did such a great job of purposely forgetting the Unix line editor that I forgot its name until just now…
    “EMACS” by the so-notable (& rotund(?)) Richard Stahlman who (IIRC) is also responsible for the GNU license.

    Water-cooling?
    Whatever happened to the (nascent?) interest in Heat Pipes?

    There may be some especially “interesting developments” over at AMD now that they’ve bought ATI.

    As for hot-rodding PCs, I did that at my old dealership in the early 90s.
    ALRs with Hercules Graphics Station cards… arguably more powerful GPUs (TI 32010s and 20s) with more RAM than the available CPUs… multiple monitors etc.
    I also delighted in having composite networked multi-user systems strewn about the shop running programs “amongst themselves” with Concurrent DOS, MU DOS, Desqview and Desqview 386.
    I regret the passing of PC GEOS (and others) a super-fast GUI written entirely in assembly language… which had few apps ever written for it.

    Oh, yeah… I’m also “stuck in the past” favoring small/fast/tight code which lessens the need for gigonda hardware setups…. even tho it’s now cheap enough to OD on it.

  67. Beeblebrox Comment by Beeblebrox

    Puddle:

    BWAHAHAHAHA!!
    Myst?! MYST?! GRAPHICALLY INTENSIVE?!
    stop, dear G-d, stop it already…I can’t take it…it hurts..must..stop..laughing..ow..

    Hey Puddle, what are you, 12?

    Anyone with even a modest amount of knowledge of the history of computer gaming knows why a.) Myst, with its gorgous 3D environments, was one of the, if not THE most influential game ever released for desktop computing and b.) why it was not released first for Windows.

    -B

    P.S. By the way, I consider anyone who gets off on on Doom 3, whether 8 or 28, to be a kid.

  68. Puddle Pirate Comment by Puddle Pirate UNITED STATES

    Interesting. A classic liberal-style response. Insult, followed by meaningless soundbite completely sidestepping the points presented, ending with misdirection and implied insult.

    I appreciate your generous assesment of my youth. Unfortunately, if it were true, my wife would have some explaining to do to the police. Granted, she does say that I act like a kid sometimes, but I don’t think that’s the avenue you were pursuing.

    Myst was not originally released for Windows because the PC demographic would not have purchased it. That decision was based entirely on marketing and had nothing whatsoever to do with the suitability of either platform to run the program. Do I need to point out that Myst was not developed by Apple? The program was developed by Cyan and distributed by Broderbund. Apple was not part of that discussion. The PC juggernaut at the time was the original Doom and several other FPS titles, and most PC users considered anyone using a Mac to be a pot-brained street freak. Not exactly the most promising group to release a non-shooter static environment exploration title bearing the Apple pedigree into.
    Fortunately for Apple, Myst was a sensation among Mac users (who until then had to satisfy themselves with pong…I exaggerate only slightly). Word got around, and the program was ported to the PC, where it sold reasonably. Currently, Myst has sold a tad over 11 million total copies. Not bad at all. Doom racked up 10 million in two years.
    Myst was released in 1993. It was ported and released for Windows in 1994. There were no gigantic leaps forward in PC technology in that one-year time span, so your postulation that Myst being released originally for Mac had to do with tech issues is, quite simply, full of shit.
    Granted, this is all moot, because we’re discussing the merits of the platforms in 2006, not a decade ago. Which, I believe, was precisely the point I made earlier. Myst, Riven, and Halo are all VERY OLD PROGRAMS. They have NO RELEVANCE in the current discussion about system performance, because they are DATED and will NOT STRESS the hardware or OS of EITHER PLATFORM.
    I swear, trying to have a conversation with most mac users is like trying to have a debate with a cement block in a four year time warp. Get with the program, m’kay? Time to step into the twenty-first century with the other 90% of the planet. I know it may be hard, but you’re going to have to say goodbye to the glitzy boat anchor. It may be very pretty to look at, but has no substance compared to the modern PC. Kinda like Paris Hilton. All looks no brains.
    By all means, keep the box around as a display piece. Nice plexi case, some overhead track lighting…give it a decent memorial.
    Another bit of advice. Introducing a point with “Anyone knows” and then failing to provide any concrete facts or references whatsoever as to why everybody should/does know is not a good way to be taken seriously, on this forum or any other.
    Finally, your comment regarding Doom 3 confirms my suspicions regarding your ignorance of the computer gaming demographic and also displays a good deal of immaturity.
    Whether or not anyone “gets off” on the program has nothing whatsoever to do with the program’s graphics engine, developed completely from scratch by John Romero and the crew over at Id. That engine is arguably the best we have yet seen for ability to render lighting and shadows, and it places extraordinarily heavy strains on any system runnning it, particularly at high resolutions with max AA. Hence, its inclusion in the ‘Big 3′ for stress test benchmarks.

    Now, if you wish to stop making a jackass of yourself and have a conversation with the rest of the adults, we’ll be here all week.

    Cheers.

  69. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon UNITED STATES

    Ow, you two are basically ripping each other to shreds.

    You have a good point about the “anyone knows”. I mean “anyone knows” the steelers are the defending superbowl champions. But if you think that says anything about the quality of their team this year, much less proves the superiority of macs over PCs or vice versa, your head is stuck two feet up your arse. I say good riddance to bad rubbish, and three cheers for *anybody* who takes out the trash on sunday afternoon… even the evil atwanta fartcons (atlanta falcons for those not well versed in insulting name twisting)…

    RH