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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » Time to Compromise (UPDATED)

…and it looks like we’ve found an issue on which we can finally follow the voice of the American voter, move in a new direction and give the Democrats something they desperately want (they’re the ones that bring it up all the time, after all).

Chuckie Rankle once again tries to push his draft bill.

We mean, why not? If the Democrats really want the draft back, then why not let them have it? We’re sure all of the voters who pulled the lever for them will be thrilled pink to see their call for a “New Direction” heeded.

Not to mention that the mere thought of a bunch of unkempt, unwashed, latte-swilling trust fund kiddies dragged from their Starbucks, given a haircut and a hosing and forced into uniform fills my evil heart with all kinds of fuzzy feelings.

Hey, who knows? Maybe we can actually turn the retards into citizens rather than liabilities?

Two years of drills, forced marches, physical exercise and active duty does wonders to snivelling, whiny MTV zombies.

If they survive, of course.

If they don’t, society wins anyway.

***UPDATE***: Quite a few objections in the comments already (and a few “ayes” as well), so let’s deal with them, shall we?

“I don’t want no stinking conscripts fouling up my army!”

First off, let’s all agree that nothing beats a 100% volunteer army. An army made up entirely of vols, people who are motivated to be there and are there of their own free will is optimal. No argument about it. But you’re failing to see the big picture, not to mention that a lot of you, no offense intended, have no experience working with draftees. I do.

Yes, draftees are a pain in the butt during basic. They don’t wanna be there, they’d much rather be home smooching off of their parents and sucking on their mamas’ tits, and they’ll try every way they can to fuck up training by being little whiny assholes, the way their spoiled little asses have always been up until the point they were drafted and informed that their pathetic, pimpled, over-ample asses were no longer their own.

But if there is ONE thing that armed forces do well, it’s beating that kind of shit out of the carcasses of recruits. Think about it: We routinely transform ordinary citizens into well-oiled, efficient, disciplined killing machines, something that is about as contrary to your natural state of mind as you possibly can be, so what makes you think that we can’t take mama’s boy and turn him into a proud, self-sufficient, strong soldier?

I know we can, because I’ve been lucky enough to be part of that process. I have taken completely worthless, spineless, whining little pissants that I’d sooner just shoot than crap in the face of and turned them into fine soldiers, respected and loved by their volunteer buddies. All it takes is a bit of, er, “motivation” and they soon learn that not only is what they were not worth having, what they become is something that will put them head and shoulders above their civilian peers. Not to mention that nothing is more addictive than The Brotherhood of Soldiers, once you’re inside of it. It’s like a drug. It doesn’t matter how you entered it, what matters is that you’re in it all of a sudden.

Given the right methods and a free hand, you can turn pretty much anybody into a soldier. I know that from experience.

Also, one of the benefits of conscription is that you get to sort the wheat from the chaff. You of course don’t open elite units to conscripts. Sure, the conscripts can join up with the elites later on, voluntarily, but then they’re no longer “conscripts” in the true sense of the word, now are they?

With that comes added status from being part of an elite, all-volunteer unit, as opposed to being among the “mixed” units. Volunteer rates for the elites skyrocket as a result. Never fails. Everybody wants to be among the best of the best.

And then there’s another benefit that few people ever consider: The benefit to society as a whole.

What conscription and the army does is to take a bunch of basically worthless pieces of civilian shit and turn them into ambitious, strong, confident individuals who have learned to believe in themselves, not because they’re told that they’re wonderful members of Gaia’s big happy family, but because they’ve proven, to themselves and their buddies, that they’re worth counting on.

They’ve learned the difference between the utterly worthless, empty blather of public schoolteachers telling them what wonderful beings they are and learned that prestige, confidence and achievement is something you EARN and, more importantly, that it is something they CAN earn, even if it hurts like shit to get there.

Volunteers already HAVE that attitude, draftees don’t. So what the draft does is to take that potential, a potential that everybody has, and beat it out of people who didn’t know or believe that they had it, because they never fucking once in their life HAD to earn a damn thing.

As a result, society wins. We make better people out of morons who would otherwise be clogging up the works “earning” degrees in gender studies, comparative folk dancing and [insert minority name here] studies and getting overpaid, underworked jobs in that, paid for by you and me. When they COULD be out there in society being all they could REALLY be.

Finally, and that’s why I’m sure that the Democrats most likely don’t really WANT a draft, at least not if they have, uncharacteristically, thought about it, almost none of the conscripts I encountered, once we were done with them, were socialists at discharge. Why the fuck WOULD you be once you’ve learned, thanks to the armed forces, that there is no limit to what you can do if you put your mind to it. That you’re twice the man or woman that you thought you were, 5 times what your parents thought and 20 times what your grandparents thought?

I encountered a lot of conscript recruits that weren’t worth pissing on if their hair was on fire when they were put in uniform, but with a very few exceptions that I can count on one hand, all of them were good citizens when we were done with them. And, volunteers and conscripts alike, they were all better people when they left than they were when they got in.

72 Responses to “Time to Compromise (UPDATED)”
  1. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952 UNITED STATES

    Two years of drills, forced marches, physical exercise and active duty does wonders to snivelling, whiny MTV zombies.

    Indeed it would Sire. Nobody, short of the lobotomized, every forgets the first week of boot, basic or hell on Earth. I sure as hell won’t. And it does change you. Nothing like a good ass whippin’ to adjust one’s attitude. I saw that happen once, made damn sure it didn’t happen to me. And God forbid you find a cause greater than yourself, even if your company has it’s share of theives, scam artists and assholes. I do remember one time I deliberately waited in line behind a man at the pay line…seems he forgot the hundred bucks he owned me. Tapping him on the shoulder, I simply smiled……he paid. Like you, I am smilin’ thinking about some of these spoiled college brats facing some drill sergeants I still remember……some thirty five years ago.

  2. Thresher Comment by Thresher UNITED STATES

    Guys, I really don’t want a bunch of draftees in the Corps with me. Don’t get me wrong, I’d recieve tremendous amounts of gratification seeing some of my classmates getting the shit kicked out of them in Basic, and it would improve my generation no end, but wouldn’t the military itself fight the draft?

  3. LC Delftsman3 Comment by LC Delftsman3 UNITED STATES

    I agree Sire,Caveman…it may prove to be beneficial in the long run to some of these snivelling trust babies…BUT there is also the down side of trying to whip these pork rinds into some sembelance of a human being, to the detriment of those that joined the Service(s) for the correct reasons.

    Having served at a time when we were transitioning from a draft to an all volunteer army, I can speak from experience that draftees are a LOT harder to train and pose a real danger to their fellow troops.

    UNLESS it was a system of universal conscription, I’d be against any draft. :smoke_tb: 96 days smoke free!!!!

  4. LC Joe D,  A&IG/GWN Comment by LC Joe D, A&IG/GWN CANADA

    Not a snowball in hells chance of it happening Thresher. Rangel proposed it once before and when it came to a vote, he voted against it (a lot that going around with Dems).

    Now he proposes it again knowing full well the outcome. He’s just a grandstanding old prick.

    Your beloved Corps is safe. :smile2_tb:

  5. Unregistered Trackback by Iowa Voice UNITED STATES

    Once Again, Who Supports The Draft?…

    You heard during the 2004 Elections that if Bush won, we’d see a draft. Almost immediately after the election, the only people talking about one were Democrats. Today, two years later, it’s the Democrats who are still talking about it. In fact, Ch…

  6. LC Joe D,  A&IG/GWN Comment by LC Joe D, A&IG/GWN CANADA

    The vote, by the way, was 402 - 2.

    :smoke_tb:

  7. Unregistered Trackback by Wake up America UNITED STATES

    Honor…

    Men and women of honor, stand up, stand tall, and proclaim loudly in a unified voice, “we are a nation of honor and commitment, and we will stay the course and defend that which is right and just, and defeat that which is vile and evil.”…

  8. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie UNITED STATES

    Two years of drills, forced marches, physical exercise and active duty does wonders to snivelling, whiny MTV zombies.

    May do wonders for them but it will fuck the military all to hell.

    The reason our military is the best and most professional on earth is that they are volunteers who WANT to be there, who understand the gravity of the undertaking they have stepped forward for.

    I know our cause is just and noble because our best step forward to fight for it.

    If they must, send the sniveling maggot civilians to a special boot camp, run them through the ringer and send them home. Video tape it all for a new Fox special “When civilians cry”. But for cripes sake do NOT put them in a real uniform.

  9. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie UNITED STATES

    BTW, immediate left of post #5, WOW!

  10. jaybear Comment by jaybear UNITED STATES

    As the father of a 20 year old and a 17 year old, I kinda have mixed feelings about this. Now, as someone who worked beside the ALL VOLUNTEER military for 10 years I know them to be one of the most diverse, talented, smartest, and most representative of the American populace that we’ve ever had. I have no clue what that bastard rangel is talking about when he claims this military consists largely of the poor and uneducated….I mean, wasn’t this one of the main arguments put forth to abolish the draft in the ’60’s?? That the kids of the rich avoided the draft and the poor and uneducated were called up? Do you see the absolute hypocrisy and dishonesty of this idiots argument?

    If this draft proposal was made in good faith by that partisan socialist, race baiting, son of a bitch rangel….then I wouldn’t have so many doubts about it. But I know it for what it is, a big political shovel that he can swing at the heads of anyone in Congress who votes against it….accusing them of “voting for the war, but not wanting their own children to fight it.” He’s a bastard, a traitor, and has shown himself to be more than willing to gamble the lives of our children and our soldiers in his efforts to discredit the President and this war….

    If he made the argument that we are fighting a global war…a world war, if you will….that we all needed to put forth the effort to win, that he and all of his democrat allies supported the war effort and our troops and stood behind the President….then I wouldn’t have a problem with this, but I don’t live in that kind of a fantasy world.

    I’m almost inclined to say something like “Hell no, my kids won’t fight for that bastard rangel and the rest of those democrat bastards”, but I won’t…I know that to be a cowardly and hypocritical argument..given what I’ve said about this war effort on this site in the past. But rangel is NOT interested in strenghtening the military, not at all…why hell, he had his draft bill come up to a vote before and voted against it himself!!! the bastard…playing his political games with our military and our kids…the bastard

    My youngest son is talking about going into the Navy when he graduates this year, if he does…I applaud him. He will be joining an all volunteer military that..to a man (and woman)…is smarter, more talented, more representative of what an American is than rangel could ever dream of being.

  11. Rat Bastard Comment by Rat Bastard UNITED STATES

    I have to agree with Thresher, I don’t want any draftees on Submarines.
    I want a Submariner that has to volunteer twice. Once for the Navy and again for Submarines.

  12. Rat Bastard Comment by Rat Bastard UNITED STATES

    Jaybear,

    If he’s committed and has a brain, have him volunteer for the Submarine Force. Pick a rating that will not put him on a Trident (Missile Tech or FTB). Anything else reduces this risk by 50%.

    Also, don’t go Nuke.

    T-Hull weenies are a bunch of sniveling whiners.

    Fast Boats. We put the Hood back in brotherhood and forget the brother part!

  13. Unregistered Pingback by Blue Crab Boulevard » Rangel Will Try It UNITED STATES

    […] UPDATE: Others suitably impressed with good old Charlie: Wizbang, Misha, PSoTD, Scared Monkeys, Gateway Pundit, Sweetness and Light, […]

  14. Unregistered Comment by Crapburner UNITED STATES

    I watched that meally-mouth Rangel this morning on the idiotbox and have mixed feelings whether a draft would work. Today’s younger man is by conditioning by public school will not have the backbone and steel to go through Basic since todays education does not encourage objective thinking or problem solving. By the 20’s and 30’s most of this has worn off as people mature and learn that work has t be done and the bills got to be paid!!

    It would be fun to see some of the tattooed, pierced slackers get the haircut, do pushups, drill and appreciate the joy of cleaning toilets with toothbrushs but think most of them would want to go home and cry for mother.

    So I ere on the side of volunteer armed forces.

  15. jaybear Comment by jaybear UNITED STATES

    Rat Bastard sez:

    If he’s committed and has a brain, have him volunteer for the Submarine Force. Pick a rating that will not put him on a Trident (Missile Tech or FTB). Anything else reduces this risk by 50%.

    Thanks Rat, I’ll pass that along to him…he keeps talking about carriers but those are nothing but big targets for you Hunter/Killer types.

    I teach with an old vet Submariner from the Vietnam era. He borrowed one of my video cameras to video the Tolling of The Bells ceremony this summer. he’s shown me most of the footage, and I’ve offered to help him edit it and put it on DVD, what a ceremony THAT was….very touching and humbling.

  16. Grits Comment by Grits UNITED STATES

    Great idea, but don’t mix them. Separate boot camps, bases and separate vessels, but the same training which will be rigorous and last the two year enlistment. Have volunteers and drafts. Offer the cream of the drafts an opportunity to join the volunteers at the end of their enlistment. Those volunteering go directly into the volunteer services.

    Make sure all women are drafted on an equal basis as well. Thank you NOW. Can’t show any partiality now can we?

    Ensure every child of every member of congress is required to serve or has served. No exclusions, exceptions or deferments. They should lead by example.

    Which begs the question, “If you have never served your country, how can you be qualified to vote or lead this country in the House, the Senate or Executive Branch or Supreme court? How can you even be considered a full citizen?”

    :-) Heh, heh, heh …… yeah ….

  17. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I UNITED STATES

    Instead of putting my reply in the comments, I’ve updated the post.

  18. Unregistered Trackback by Wake up America UNITED STATES

    Charles Rangel is a Jack Ass…

    The Donkey that represents the Democratic party is the perfect mascot for Charlie Rangel because he is such an ASS….

  19. MCPO Airdale Comment by MCPO Airdale UNITED STATES

    Having spent 30 years in the military, I’ll comment. If Rangel’s bill includes the following provisions, I’ll support it.

    1. No lowering of current standards, academic, mental or physical.
    2. No deferments for college, marriage or C.O. status. If C.O. is claimed, off to Corps school and a USMC billet.
    3. First taken will be the sons and daughters of U.S. and State Representatives, Senators and Governors. Next will be the children of those earning above $350K per annum.

    So, if these conditions are met, I have no problem with it.

    P.S. I spent most of my career on Aircraft Carriers. IMHO the best duty in the Navy but, as we say, “Choose your rate, choose your fate.”

  20. Odahi Comment by Odahi UNITED STATES

    I seem to remember that the draftees were mostly infantry?? Not sure about that- I was JUST young enough to avoid being drafted, I joined up at the great old age of 31, had my 32nd birthday in Basic, and am still grateful for the experience. I didn’t do 20. I was getting too old to be deployed all the time, but I wish I had stayed, now. I would gladly go back to Iraq (was there in GW1). I volunteered and served in the Army, and have worked with all other branches, save the Coast Guard. A fine military we have, and if handled properly, I think conscripts could find a use. But I sure think Rangel is trying to play both sides of the issue, again, and I hope that it comes back to bite both him and the Donks in the ass, next election cycle.

  21. kwongdzu Comment by kwongdzu UNITED STATES

    I’m with jaybear. As the mother of a 17-year-old, I am concerned that his lack of sense would quickly get him killed - while he would endanger others and fail to accomplish anything! I have told him he has my blessing to join the military - as long as he waits until he is 22 and has done a hell of a lot of target practice! In my experience, up until age 21 at least (with some exceptions), kids have no brains. Our oldest boy is quite enthusiastic, but lacking in common sense and maturity.

    Before my brother (who is 36) went off to Iraq, I told him to come back in one piece. He said not to worry, that he had a good reason to not behave recklessly (his family) and that he paid attention during training. Many of the people who die, he said, are younger and, frankly, take unnecessary risks. I am not implying that you can completely eliminate the hazard, but reducing it when possible makes sense.

    If our government were really serious and responsible about this, I think they would institute the kind of system that Israel has in place for its citizens - compulsory military training for all youth (except those who are physically or mentally unable, of course). It would make us a better nation across the board. We wouldn’t have any more stupid disasters like Katrina, for example, if the majority of citizens had some f***ing idea of preparedness and the competence to react properly in emergency situations. There would be many spinoff benefits. I think it would be a real money saver, actually.

    Also, it would give the government a chance to recognize and offer incentives to people who show real leadership potential, so that if they desired they could receive additional training. Enlisting to serve active duty would still be voluntary - but with significantly better pay and benefits. That would be a better way to encourage enlistment. Of all the things that I can think of that I don’t mind the government raising taxes for, military spending is at the top of the list - if for no other reason than that it is one responsibility of government that was actually outlined in the Constitution. Have you seen how much private companies offer to their employees to work in Iraq? Wages for one private contractor (I recently saw on careerbuilder.com) started at $90,000 per year (excluding the benefits, which were also attractive). How many of our military personnel make that kind of money, or even have a shot at it, do you think? It isn’t all about the money, obviously, but I’m certain any service person could tell you it sure wouldn’t hurt to boost morale and attract more people! Those are just my thoughts. Now, someone - point out the errors in my thinking, please.

  22. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie UNITED STATES

    Sire, for once I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you. You make some very fine points about the benefits to society of a disciplined citizen, and about the benefits of service to the draftee, but in the end the overall quality of the military will drop. And I believe that society will suffer in the long run, not to mention the war effort. Every time there has been a draft there have been draft riots, draft evaders, and it has created divisions in society. Civil War, WWI, Viet Nam, even WWII to an extent (although not as bad).

    Secondly, our Fore Fathers warned of reckless adventures created by the executive branch. When there is a just cause for which to fight the sheep dog citizen soldier in our society rise up to beat back the wolf. They do it voluntarily. If it is an unjust cause, the people won’t fight. That is a check against government power. Think of how many useless wars, fought for no other reason than two cousins whose sole claim to power was “noble” birth and had a spat over a slight of etiquette, that might never have been if the conscripts were not forced to fight upon pain of death.

    I believe in the Warrior Ethos. Proud, savage men, who visit death and destruction upon evil men who would harm their hearth and kin. Who kill with one hand, and caress with the other. These amazing men, who voluntarily face the wolf are the best in the world because they choose the hardest profession on earth voluntarily.

    There are too many grave’s filled the mistake of forced mediocrity that conscription forces upon the military.

    If you must have a draft, start an auxiliary military service (a Home Guard if you will)and fill it with conscripts. Same type of basic training, same benefits to the conscripts. Just do not put them in the active forces. The volunteers deserve better.

  23. kwongdzu Comment by kwongdzu UNITED STATES

    Incidentally, if we had compulsory training in place, and things REALLY went south and we needed to institute the draft, the ramp up time would be shortened and the effectiveness of draftees would be improved.

  24. juandos Comment by juandos UNITED STATES

    Why not bring back the draft… Nothing like a bit of nostalgia…

    anti-war riot
    War protest Washington DC, Nov 15, 1969

    Kent state
    National Guard Soldiers before the shooting at Kent State in Ohio

    antiwar march

  25. juandos Comment by juandos UNITED STATES

    What conscription and the army does is to take a bunch of basically worthless pieces of civilian shit and turn them into ambitious, strong, confident individuals who have learned to believe in themselves, not because they’re told that they’re wonderful members of Gaia’s big happy family, but because they’ve proven, to themselves and their buddies, that they’re worth counting on

    :lol_wp: :lol_wp: :lol_wp:

    Oh my! Surely you jest sire!

    I mean just think of what you are saying and then look at the lib-tards in Congress today that were part of the draft… I.E. Charlie “the worthless punk parasite” Rangel… :lol_wp: :lol_wp: :lol_wp:

  26. kwongdzu Comment by kwongdzu UNITED STATES

    A couple of more pluses: training could start at a younger age, so that some defense techniques could be thoroughly ingrained AND I would bet school shootings would go way down.

  27. LC Guido Cabrone Comment by LC Guido Cabrone UNITED STATES

    If C.O. is claimed, off to Corps school and a USMC billet.

    How about “here’s you shovel and wheelbarrow, I want that dirt piled up over there turned into a flood control dike. Move it.”

    Or, “there’s a truck, there’re crates, there’s a two-wheeler. Start loading.”

    Or, “here’s a broom, there’s a runway, start sweeping.”

    Lots of things that the military needs done that don’t require using a rifle.

    Like putting up berms around firebases…

    “What? You don’t like being unarmed in a combat zone? Shouldn’ta called yerself a pacifist, buddy!”

  28. SoCalOilMan Comment by SoCalOilMan UNITED STATES

    As one who luckily wasn’t an

    unkempt, unwashed, latte-swilling trust fund kiddies dragged from their Starbucks, given a haircut and a hosing and

    number 330something in the last draft in ‘72 (I’m sure I’ve explained why going to VN after we had decided to “cut and run”) wouldn’t be a good move, although I had always wanted to serve. Going into a demoralized and disparaged military that the Dem’s were trying to bring down to a home defense force was not an appealing career. With age I now realize it really would have benefited me, but…that was 34 years ago and I was young and dumb.

    The reason our military is the best and most professional on earth is that they are volunteers who WANT to be there, who understand the gravity of the undertaking they have stepped forward for.

    Right you are. My kid graduates in March and wants to go into the Army, I just hope he beats any draftee’s. The last distraction he needs is someone who doesn’t feel he should be there, especially if they (the gov’t) start to dumb down the requirements more than they have to date.

    He was going to enlist last year, but managed to flunk an English class and had to go another quarter. We have been in contact with his recruiter, and a HS diploma was required, no GED.

    Our military has more education than the general population, so this BS of we are just sending the dregs of society out as cannon fodder is 70’s rhetoric recycled. The guns that will be used in the next 5 years will be smarter than the guy pulling the trigger, but it will still come down to the guy that pulls the trigger, and I want someone who is there to do, and understands, the job

  29. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I UNITED STATES

    Sire, for once I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you. You make some very fine points about the benefits to society of a disciplined citizen, and about the benefits of service to the draftee, but in the end the overall quality of the military will drop.

    No doubt about it, which is why I started out by saying just that.

    “First off, let’s all agree that nothing beats a 100% volunteer army. An army made up entirely of vols, people who are motivated to be there and are there of their own free will is optimal. No argument about it.”

    My point was, and is, that a partially conscript army isn’t all bad. Conscripts have a bad name in this country, I believe, because most people associate it with the unholy mess that Congress made of Viet Nam.

    Don’t forget that a whole fucking lot of the fine fighting men of WWII were conscripts too, however.

    But I’m not arguing the fact that you get a better military if they’re all volunteers, not at all, because that’s indisputable. There’s a reason why countries with conscriptions have always excluded conscripts from their elite units. That’s not the same as saying that the mixed units were crap, however. The only conscript units in history that have been, at times but not always, crap, were units that were solely conscript. Units need a backbone of volunteer professionals, not only because it obviously strengthens the unit, but much more importantly because it gives the conscripts something to live up to.

    And I believe that society will suffer in the long run, not to mention the war effort. Every time there has been a draft there have been draft riots, draft evaders, and it has created divisions in society. Civil War, WWI, Viet Nam, even WWII to an extent (although not as bad).

    It’s not conscription that does it, it’s war itself. People weren’t going crazy over conscription during Viet Nam because of conscription, but because even the most dimwitted could see that Congress weren’t in the least bit interested in winning the war. Who wants to be conscripted to go fight for a cause that your leaders haven’t got the balls to win? Heck, even as a volunteer I’d have “un-volunteered” myself right quick if that had been the case.

    Conversely, having the warrior class as a wholly separate entity due to 100% volunteerism as we do now makes it one heck of a lot easier for the uneducated, unwashed, ignorant masses to see it as “somebody else’s problem” and take to the streets, bleating their ignorance to the world. They don’t feel that they have a stake in it since, in their myopic, moron little world, war is something that “somebody else” has to deal with, somebody who can’t be them since they wouldn’t dream of joining up.

    Secondly, our Fore Fathers warned of reckless adventures created by the executive branch. When there is a just cause for which to fight the sheep dog citizen soldier in our society rise up to beat back the wolf. They do it voluntarily.

    No they don’t. I’m not arguing with the wisdom of the Founding Fathers here, because by and large they’re more right than I could ever hope to be, but I don’t think you can ever find a better example of a citizenry not recognizing a just and necessary cause than the current war on terror.

    The thing is, the Founding Fathers couldn’t, they had no way of, predicting a society in which people are so lazy, self-indulgent and completely devoid of responsibility as the one we currently live in. Our noble ancestors, it is true, would have had no problem recognizing the danger we’re facing now and they would have risen as one to meet it.

    Today, with the spineless, “somebody else’s problem”, “me first”, MTV boneheads society that we’ve created? Not so much. The vast majority won’t recognize a just and necessary cause until it sets off a suitcase nuke next door, and we can’t afford to wait that long.

    I believe in the Warrior Ethos. Proud, savage men, who visit death and destruction upon evil men who would harm their hearth and kin. Who kill with one hand, and caress with the other. These amazing men, who voluntarily face the wolf are the best in the world because they choose the hardest profession on earth voluntarily.

    There are too many grave’s filled the mistake of forced mediocrity that conscription forces upon the military.

    I believe in the same ethos, with my entire heart.

    The thing is, it can be learned. You’re giving conscripts a bum rap that they really don’t deserve. To the extent that conscripts have failed compared to their volunteer brethren throughout military history it is the fault of their instructors.

    You probably couldn’t turn conscripts into good soldiers with the PC, feel-good, don’t be mean to them methods that we currently use in this country, but that’s not the fault of the conscripts. That’s the fault of a military that has allowed itself to be emasculated by empty suits with no idea of how to fight a war.

    We’d have to go back to the methods of yesteryear, the methods of WWII. And they work. They work wonders. We hadn’t had armies of sociologists and lawsuit-happy morons hampering our efforts overseas, and I can assure you that we could’ve turned even Michael Moore into a soldier. He would not have liked one single second of it, as a matter of fact he would’ve spent countless nights fantasizing about fragging every single one of us, but he would’ve been a soldier at the end. Our job wasn’t to provide anybody with a success story, a positive experience or approval from their peers. Our job was to create soldiers out of anything that was thrown at us, and that isn’t hard if you’re given the right tools.

    To put it another way: I saw a lot of useless assholes walking through the gates, but I never once saw one leaving the way they got in.

    If you must have a draft, start an auxiliary military service (a Home Guard if you will)and fill it with conscripts. Same type of basic training, same benefits to the conscripts. Just do not put them in the active forces. The volunteers deserve better.

    If you separate the conscripts entirely, you end up with exactly the unholy mess that you warn against.

    Yes, you should most certainly keep elite formations “volunteer only”, it creates an extra incentive to volunteer because nobody wants to be the one “slacking off” in a partially-conscript “second rate” batallion, but you must never, EVER create units made up entirely of conscripts.

    This goes for training as well. One of the most effective tools we had in basic where conscripts were concerned was the fact that half of the unit were volunteers. That creates a bunch of people you can count on to keep the cons’ shit together, not to mention that the cons have a group to aspire to membership of, which is a wonderful motivator indeed.

    Peer pressure works. Every single time.

  30. Redeard Comment by Redeard UNITED STATES

    I’d like to see this come up for a vote, with all of the republicans abstaining. It’d be intersesting if it passed with just dumbocrats voting for it, and not a chance of overriding the ensuing veto.

  31. Lady Heather Comment by Lady Heather UNITED STATES

    *Risking Friendly Fire*

    If the draft would be so bad, how did we win WW2 with it in place?

  32. Thresher Comment by Thresher UNITED STATES

    Given the right methods and a free hand, you can turn pretty much anybody into a soldier.

    Yeah, but Misha, is that going to happen? Will the Left allow the “right methods” to be employed? Or will they demand a kidskin approach to draftee training?

  33. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie UNITED STATES

    If the draft would be so bad, how did we win WW2 with it in place?

    Most everyone was 100% behind the war effort Heather. But there still were some problems.

    Sire RE #29, you make damn fine points, but I still believe that starting a draft would do more harm than good. I don’t dispute any of your points, in fact I agree with a lot of them in principle. I just have an idealistic belief that regardless of how poorly we see the current generation of military age people, they surprise us when the shit hits the fan. How many times have we ourselves on this very site marveled at what our troops are doing. They are from the same generation that we disparage (for good reason) on a regular basis. I guess I just believe in not judging the bushel because of a few bad apples. Hell, when I was in high school I know that my elders looked at me and thought probably worse (I was a real punk. Nothing ever go to jail serious, but I sure looked the part).

    Conversely, having the warrior class as a wholly separate entity due to 100% volunteerism as we do now makes it one heck of a lot easier for the uneducated, unwashed, ignorant masses to see it as “somebody else’s problem” and take to the streets, bleating their ignorance to the world.

    Here I agree with you wholeheartedly, but for a different reason. I actually believe that having a separate warrior class actually creates a sense of superiority on the part of the warrior and makes it easier for a tyrant to use them against the populace (Roman Empire, Nazi Germany etc). Thats why I am so glad that most warriors (at least all that I have and currently know) are staunch conservatives who believe in limited gubmint. God help us if they ever are turned into statists. I do agree though that volunteers make it a lot easier for the unwashed to sluff off the troops sacrifice, just like you said “somebody else’s problem”.

    I will freely admit that I have no first hand experience with conscripts as you do Sire, and I will stipulate your positive experience with them. But I am highly biased here, my background being in the Corps. I saw how one or two shitbirds could corrupt good Marines. I just fear that would be even worse on a large scale basis in a less elite unit, such as a regular Army division. (No offense meant to the doggies out there, hehe).

  34. Unregistered Trackback by Stop The ACLU

    Charlie Rangel Says Bring Back The Draft…

    When I read this news my first thought was back to the last Presidential election when the Democrats stirred up a rumor that Bush planned on doing this. Sweetness and Light thought the same thing.
    Say, where is the “Rock The Vote” crowd?…

  35. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I UNITED STATES

    I just have an idealistic belief that regardless of how poorly we see the current generation of military age people, they surprise us when the shit hits the fan. How many times have we ourselves on this very site marveled at what our troops are doing. They are from the same generation that we disparage (for good reason) on a regular basis.

    An idealistic belief that I share completely, as a matter of fact I believe we’ve seen it proven often enough that we needn’t categorize it as a belief anymore.

    The thing is, the ordinary folks you’ve seen perform above and beyond were already in. They’d already made the choice, they’d already got the training, they were already equipped with the tools to show just how excellent and outstanding they were.

    Those aren’t the ones I’m worried about, it’s the ones who never wore the uniform, the ones who never had to do shit they really, with every fibre of their being, didn’t want to do and did it anyway, the ones who think that the world revolves around them and their personal “needs” and “empowerment”, the ones slouching around on our streets wasting good space.

    The ones who stuck it out through basic (or boot, in deference to the Corps), have already proven themselves by sticking it out and becoming part of the family. They don’t need to prove anything else to me. I know they’ll give everything they have in them if the shit hits the fan, because if they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t make it through training.

    In my opinion, if you have to wait for your baptism of fire to prove whether you’re worthy of your uniform, then you weren’t trained right. Training is supposed to be so rough, so unbearably uncomfortable, so contrary to everything you THINK that life should be like that nothing the enemy will throw at you will break you. Shake you, yes, shock you, sure, make you crap your pants, absolutely. But break you? Never. If that happens, then training failed to do its job and your instructors are to blame, not you. They should have trained you better or kicked you out of the armed forces before that point.

    It’s not our soldiers I’m worried about. It’s the damned American Idol generation wandering aimlessly through life that I’m worried about.

    I will freely admit that I have no first hand experience with conscripts as you do Sire, and I will stipulate your positive experience with them. But I am highly biased here, my background being in the Corps. I saw how one or two shitbirds could corrupt good Marines. I just fear that would be even worse on a large scale basis in a less elite unit, such as a regular Army division.

    As I said, I’ve seen a fair amount of shitbirds myself, trying to fuck up a unit beyond repair because their sense of self was seven orders of magnitude above their sense of duty to their brothers in arms.

    They didn’t last long. And no, I don’t mean as in “they were beaten to pulps” or “they were disposed of, never to be seen again”, we weren’t the Soviet Fucking Union. They were brought around, with a little help from the rest of us, by their buddies. And, in the end, they turned out to be damned fine soldiers. They just had to have the civilian roughed out of them.

    A shitbird only remains a shitbird if you LET him. If he’s fucking up your unit, there are ways of bringing him around. If you can’t bring him around, you’ve failed as a leader, and failure is not an option.

    It’s farking hard work compared to volunteers, that much is certainly true, but it’s far from impossible. “Impossible” is an invention of the mind designed to create an excuse for middling performance.

    So it’s not ideal. An all-volunteer army is the ideal. Again, I’ll never once dispute that. It sure as Hell IS ideal if you’re the unlucky arse having to shape the fucknozzles into soldiers.

    All I’m saying is that you can turn anything into a good soldier, if you just put your heart into it. And, ultimately, it might be more of a plus than a minus to our nation.

    In the end, though, it’s what the people want. That’s what we’re all about. Freedom and choice. If we reject it, fine. That’s our choice because we’re a free people and that’s the way it should be. I have no preference, really, I’m just pointing out that the draft isn’t all bad.

    Yeah, but Misha, is that going to happen? Will the Left allow the “right methods” to be employed? Or will they demand a kidskin approach to draftee training?

    That’s the downside to it, Thresher, and you hit the nail square on the head.

    No, if you’re required to run the armed forces like a kindergarten, then you can’t turn conscripts into soldiers. Heck, you can’t turn ANYBODY into soldiers that way.

    Look at it this way: If you can’t put your recruits through Hell in training and teach them to survive that, in peacetime and with no real enemy trying to kill them, they’ll break like twigs once they’re faced with real combat.

    I served overseas, so I’m almost completely ignorant of the methods used here but, based on observing our troops’ OUTSTANDING performance under battle conditions in this war and the wars that have gone before it, I can’t believe that they don’t have the tools in training. Because if that were the case, they’d be running like fwenchmen the moment somebody fired a gun within a mile of them.

  36. Rat Bastard Comment by Rat Bastard UNITED STATES

    The Tolling of The Bells is Humbling. Thank God for the 52 of WWII.

    I’ve been in Pearl Harbor since 1994 on a permanent basis (since 1982 on a Off and On, mostly On basis) as active and retired (Working in Pearl Harbor Naval Shipyard in Combat Systems and still learning the boats on a feverish pace). Send me a PFOR and I’ll send my personal e-mail addy. I’ll see if I can hook your son up (21+ years in the Navy and I work with a retired Master Chief with 30+ years in the Navy. He’s a nuke, but I don’t hold it against him.) Between the two of us, we know the Submarine force.
    Let us know what your son(s) is interested in and we’ll give him (plural) the straight scoope.

  37. Rat Bastard Comment by Rat Bastard UNITED STATES

    That Post (#32) was for JayBear

  38. Unregistered Pingback by justbarkingmad.com » Blog Archive » Is the Jheri-Curl addling Rangel? UNITED STATES

    […] Once again Charles Rangel has raised the issue of a draft.  Personally, I don’t believe a single reason he gives. Some think that this actually might have a beneficial impact on society, such as The Anti-idiotarian Rottweiler. Not to mention that the mere thought of a bunch of unkempt, unwashed, latte-swilling trust fund kiddies dragged from their Starbucks, given a haircut and a hosing and forced into uniform fills my evil heart with all kinds of fuzzy feelings. […]

  39. Michael Comment by Michael UNITED STATES

    I just hope I can meet the BMI before the Draftees. I want to become something better than what I am.

  40. Rat Bastard Comment by Rat Bastard UNITED STATES

    For all of the LC’s out there, we in the submarine force are different. Not better, just different.
    It takes a special person to go to sea with the following within arms reach:
    460 Volts AC
    3000 psi Hydraulics
    4500 psi Air
    1 Nuclear Reactor
    And we intentionally sink it on purpose to a depth of greater than 800 ft. This is Not normal. This takes a special person to deal with the pressure of the Depth and the boat.
    We are Special.
    And we can deal with the stress of the Boat and the circumstances.

    If you can’t handle it a phrase from the early 80’s comes to mind……We eat our young!

  41. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I UNITED STATES

    I just hope I can meet the BMI before the Draftees. I want to become something better than what I am.

    You don’t have to worry about that. With that attitude, you will be.

    As to the BMI: Is that a requirement in this country? Sweet Jesus. Where I come from, we didn’t give two shits about the fitness or weight of our recruits. We could fix THAT.

    And we did.

  42. Michael Comment by Michael UNITED STATES

    Yep… I found that out visiting the army recruiting office. I was thinking “ok… I’m a little outta shape but I think they could help on that part”. Turns out I was wrong.

  43. Unregistered Comment by MurdockTheCrazy UNITED STATES

    I’ve always been of the opinion we need both a volunteer military and a mandatory-service “reserve”.

    Best of both worlds… We don’t screw up the effectiveness of the volunteer military, yet we have additional, excuse the term, cannon fodder.

    And while we’re at it, let’s make four years of volunteer service needed to earn your right to vote…

  44. Thresher Comment by Thresher UNITED STATES

    As to the BMI: Is that a requirement in this country?

    There are physical conditioning platoons that they stick you in if you don’t pass the initial fitness tests. So sayeth the local Marine recruiter.

    Hey Misha, could you e-mail me a description of what life in the Danish military was like? I’m doing a paper on NATO in the Reagan era, comparing real life to what was portrayed in Red Storm Rising. You served in the REFORGER days, didn’t you?

    I’ve heard you describe yourself in those days as “a speedbump for the Bear,” and I was wondering what it was like to stare down a butt load of Soviet Guards formations.

  45. LCBrendan Comment by LCBrendan AUSTRALIA

    Sire..I’m sorry..but we tried that here.

    During the early years Prime Minister Billy Hughes tried to bring in conscription…twice..and his ass was well and truly kicked.

    It came in during Vietnam…and after that was outlawed.

    Whilst I have heard the Australian Army described recently by some Americans as a “useless platoon sized force” compared to the might of the US…they are all voluntary and not one Australian would have it any other way.

    We tried “nasho’s”..(national service) we tried conscription..and it left a sour taste in our mouth.(no, this isn’t a Monica joke, I am in dead earnest)

    The idea was raised again recently (we welcome discussion) and the main bone of contention was throwing in callow conscripts into a fucking meat blender….which would AGAIN tarnish the Army which already had the guts torn out of it for TWENTY YEARS because of John Fucking Kerry.

    TWENTY YEARS for our veterans from Vietnam to get the welcome home they deserved.,.TWENTY YEARS that their valour was not recognised…and conscription is never going to be agreed upon.

    Aussies know that a professional fighting force has to want to be there..that we can NOT for one moment allow the standards to slip.

    We have had some fuck-ups in recent weeks…some idiots playing with their weapons and being fools..their ass is history and they are out of the Services..and the one thing that names and shames them is that they have brought disrespect to an all volunteer all professional force.

    They volunteered..and WE WILL expect nothing less than exceptional conduct from each and every one of them.

    The same dedication and excellence cannot be gained from someone pushed into a uniform..and I don’t know any Aussie soldier who would be happy with a “draftee” watching his back.

    If the guy at my back in his heart doesn’t want to be there with me, then get him the fuck out of here before he gets him AND ME killed.

    The Pacific is unstable right now…Fiji, now Tonga and the Solomons. The Generals have the right of it.

    Every man jack of them has to have 100% commitment..and I am sorry but NO conscript can ever be trusted to have that same commitment..if he had, then he would already have joined.

    Sire..conscripts may be brave, they may even fight well…but were I a soldier and choosing between a volunteer and a conscript? I’d take the volunteer every time.

    One of them wants to be at my side…the other wants to be anywhere BUT next to me.

    THAT is the crux of the matter.

  46. Unregistered Trackback by Voice of the Pacific UNITED STATES

    Why conscription won’t work….

    During the early years Prime Minister Billy Hughes tried to bring in conscription…twice..and his ass was well and truly kicked.
    It came in during Vietnam…and after that was outlawed.
    Whilst I have heard the Australian Army described recently by som…

  47. juandos Comment by juandos UNITED STATES

    If the draft would be so bad, how did we win WW2 with it in place?

    Lack of political correctness defining every move made to win, maybe…

    Don’t forget that a whole fucking lot of the fine fighting men of WWII were conscripts too

    Without a doubt as these very fine examples show…

    Charlie Rangel isn’t the only barking moonbat calling for a reinstatement of the draft: McDermott Co-Sponsors Legislation to Reinstate the Draft

    “This is the Perfect War. They want to die, and we want to kill them.” -Sgt. Major Henry Bergeron, 1st Marine Division, Iraq

    I personally have no doubt that more people, real warriors like Henry Bergeron could and will be found in the pool of draftees, what I wonder is how many future Canadian citizens will be found in the same pool?

  48. The Friendly Grizzly Comment by The Friendly Grizzly UNITED STATES

    And just how many of those conscripts will have names like Kennedy, Gates, Bush, Gingrich, Schumer, Clinton, DuPont, Rockefeller, Gore, Edwards, Rangel, or McCain?

    Didn’t think so.

  49. juandos Comment by juandos UNITED STATES

    And just how many of those conscripts will have names like Kennedy, Gates, Bush, Gingrich, Schumer, Clinton, DuPont, Rockefeller, Gore, Edwards, Rangel, or McCain?

    Well sir, Bush DOES NOT belong in this esteemed crowd of parasitic lib-tards as a little homework on your part would’ve shown…

    Note the comments of Jeff Babnin writting in NRO: “My college roommate, retired Air Force Colonel Ed Atkins, flew fighters for 20 years. Ed told me, “Anybody who thinks that flying fighters is not exhausting physically, demanding intellectually, and tough emotionally just has no clue about the complexity of air combat.” He added, “I’ve flown check rides as everything from a second lieutenant to a colonel. The [flight examiner] doesn’t give a damn if your dad was George H.W. Bush, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Jesus or Moses. The only question is, ‘can you hack the mission?’” And it’s harder to do in some aircraft than others. Dubya had the right stuff”

    Note the words of William A Whittle of Eject! Eject! Eject! in his, “WAR OF THE BUMPER STICKERS“…

    Finally note the words of George W himself in this 1999 interview with the always questionable, hardly ever realiable WaPo…

  50. Unregistered Pingback by “7.62mm Justice” » Cure For Iraq’s Ills?

    […] The Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler […]

  51. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

    I saw this post yesterday, and was going to comment then but was busy moving a bunch of sites to a new host.

    Here is one topic where I think I am in full agreement with Misha on. (there are others, but THIS one is current)

    I am all for a draft — but not for the purpose of drawing negative attention to the war.

    I have long been an advocate of at least two years of mandatory service to this country right out of high school. It doesn’t have to be the military, just some commitment to this country.

    We are all owners of this country, and with the privileges of ownership comes some responsibilities.

    I might be wrong, (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am) but isn’t this the longest period we’ve gone without a military draft? Look at the results. Most young people are somewhat detached from what it is to be an American. They take too much for granted, and they just don’t engage in the workings of this country.

  52. Kristopher Comment by Kristopher UNITED STATES

    If we are to have conscription, then the conscription age relatives of politicians must be conscripted into front line combat units first.

    If any one of this set of people worms out, then no one should be considered conscriptable.

  53. jaybear Comment by jaybear UNITED STATES

    DJ sez:

    I might be wrong, (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am) but isn’t this the longest period we’ve gone without a military draft? Look at the results. Most young people are somewhat detached from what it is to be an American. They take too much for granted, and they just don’t engage in the workings of this country.

    Well maybe if they were properly taught what it is to be an AMERICAN, not an African-American or an Arab-American or a whatever-American….and if they were taught the history of this country and the great things that were accomplished in our 200+ year history, instead of the revisionist/feel guilty/imperialist American history that they are now taught….they might be more engaged in the workings of this country. Hell, civics classes aren’t even offered anymore, kids aren’t taught about Iwo Jima or Gettysburg or Saratoga! But they sure can tell you what happened at Kent State and Selma and Wounded Knee. DJ, what I’m saying here is that kids aren’t taught ANYTHING but the bad about America and it’s history…they are given nothing to be proud of.

    Again, I restate my first point about this bastard rangel and his “draft”. His motives are disingenuous, they are designed to swing a political shovel at supporters of the war, and he is trying to make his point with the lives and futures of other people’s kids. I’ll support his “draft” when I hear his and asshole mc dermott’s and the rest of the traitorous democrats full blown commitment to support this global war and the president who commands the troops fighting it. Until I hear that I’ll say:

    “To hell with you rangel and mc dermott, play your hypocritical political games with something other than my kids….bastards”

    (

  54. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I UNITED STATES

    Hey Misha, could you e-mail me a description of what life in the Danish military was like? I’m doing a paper on NATO in the Reagan era, comparing real life to what was portrayed in Red Storm Rising. You served in the REFORGER days, didn’t you?

    I’ve heard you describe yourself in those days as “a speedbump for the Bear,” and I was wondering what it was like to stare down a butt load of Soviet Guards formations.

    Sure. Just shoot me an email with your questions and I’ll answer them to the best of my limited abilities.

  55. Unregistered Comment by cfbleachers UNITED STATES

    Well, not to be contrary or anything…but there is a bit of Pythagorean Logic to Charlie’s suggestion.

    Let every kid who is standing tall and proud to be an American VOLUNTEER to serve his country, be placed in a training program that allows him to learn the leadership skills he will need and use later in life.

    And let every red diaper baby be forced by their leftist representatives into serving as the “scout team” during practice and the forward wave during game time.

    I kind of like this.

  56. L.C. Rowane Comment by L.C. Rowane UNITED STATES

    What everyone seems to be missing here is that these draftees may have never had a reason to grow a pair before. Put them in Basic and either they’ll grow a pair or they’ll wash out. In the later case, they should forever after be treated as “non-citizen residents” At least then the leaders of the country would have been steeled by a hitch in the military, not a bunch of sniveling assholes that the politicians of BOTH parties are today.

    Death to Islam, and
    their mediot stooges!
    Duty, Honor, Country
    (in THAT order)
    Rowane

  57. bigdicksplace Comment by bigdicksplace

    Two words,

    Hell No.

  58. Unregistered Comment by MurdockTheCrazy UNITED STATES

    I can’t believe it.

    I’m agreeing with DJ, and everyone else is being an idiot.

    Two years of mandatory military service for all males 18-20.

    Period.

    And there’s no reason we can’t also keep the volunteer military intact. Seperate the conscripted units from the voluneer ones, use as needed.

  59. The Friendly Grizzly Comment by The Friendly Grizzly UNITED STATES

    Juandos: I meant not the politics of those involved, meant one thing: position. I do not see Bush in the same awful light I see the rest of the names I listed, but he does share things in common with the rest. A phone call or two works wonders that would not even be answered if placed by the common people. The POTENTIAL is there. Not necessary that it would be used by someone with integrity.

  60. Panzermann403 Comment by Panzermann403 UNITED KINGDOM

    It would normally not be my thing to interfere in such an intimate discussion of your country’s internal affairs, but this is something that I know a shitload about.

    To everyone who doesn’t know, I have been a soldier in the German Bundeswehr, a conscript army. I have been transformed from a soft, somewhat whiny mommy-boy into a warrior. No adjectives needed.

    I have learned to fight, to live on my own, to lead people and to drive a tank. But the most important thing I learned, was that a group of dedicated warriors can accomplish any goal.

    I would like to somewhat correct the notion of the inherently inferior quality of a conscript army. We had extensive mock battles with US, British and French troops. In my somewhat limited view I certainly couldn’t discern a noticeable difference in aptitude or combat effectiveness. So many factors affect the equation: Training, Leadership, Experience, Equipment, Motivation, Adaptation to Environment… It’s hard to pin-point the quality just to the origin of the troopers.

    The German army has a great deal of experience in turning ordinary citizens into Landsers. It has been handed down from Prussian army under Frederick the Great, through the unification of the Second German Reich and the First World War and found its questionable culmination in WWII. But the political background notwithstanding, the ability to turn citizens into soldiers has been refined over the years. It can be done. I totally second what Misha says about the possibilities.

    I can also second everything he says about the benefits to society as a whole. Soldiers just work better in civilian life as well. They know what they can do and have a work ethos.

    In the last years, Germany has been drafting less and less young men and I can already make out the differences in the quality of new, young coworkers. Not to mention the coworkers from countries that have no draft. I don’t really like to generalize it, but overall and with exceptions they are more whiny, less result-oriented and a lot less able to work successfully in a team.

    A few thoughts though:

    - It’s really important to keep mixed units. Under no circumstances build units completely from draftees. Who the hell is to kick some sense into their sorry asses ? Germany tried to do that with the Foreign SS battalions in WWII and it failed miserably.

    - Keep elite units volunteer-only. It works. The Waffen-SS in the beginning of WWII was an all-volunteer outfit of highly motivated people. They had an excellent record not matched by the mixed-unit Wehrmacht until they starting drafting people into their ranks.

    - You need neither “P” nor “C” to spell army ! This is no place to feel cushy, warm and fuzzy. It’s not a court room nor is it mommy’s kitchen. You must allow the army to do the most that can still be expected from a citizen of a democratic state.

    As with most stuff in life: Do it right and you can get the most amazing results.

  61. jaybear Comment by jaybear UNITED STATES

    MurdockTheCrazy sez:

    I can’t believe it.

    I’m agreeing with DJ, and everyone else is being an idiot.
    Two years of mandatory military service for all males 18-20.
    Period.

    Sure, that’s all well and good but do it for the right damned reason. Like I’ve said before, if the asshole rangel wants a draft…let him come out in support of the war on islamonazis, in support of the president who is commander in chief of those who are fighting an dying in it, and let’s make it an honest effort to enhance our military strength and effectiveness.

    rangel wants none of that, he wants a draft because he perceives it as being a tool to whack war supporters with…”Oh, so you vote to fight a war, but you won’t let your kids go to fight it”…that kind of crap. He also is scoring political points with his constituency in Harlem by lying to them about how the poor uneducated minorities in this country have no option BUT to join the military. That argument about the poor and uneducated was the same false, anti-military argument that he and his traitorous cohorts put forth in the ’60’s to ABOLISH the draft….

    It’s a dishonest, partisan political stunt he’s pulling…masquerading as a patriotic attempt to balance out the military….

    Now THAT’s an idiot Murdock, it sure ain’t any of us.

  62. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

    I can’t believe it.

    I’m agreeing with DJ, and everyone else is being an idiot.

    Two years of mandatory military service for all males 18-20.

    Period.

    Hey, there is only room for one of me here, mister. Go find yer own Conservative site to be contrary on… :lol_wp:

    I don’t think it would have to be mandatory service in the military — just some sort of national service for male and female.

    This could consist of guarding ports, borders, airports, schools, or maybe working in the national forests and parks. There is a whole slew of things that they could do.

    What everyone seems to be missing here is that these draftees may have never had a reason to grow a pair before.

    If for no other reason, it would certainly mature them. It is an awkward age between 18 and 21 — part kid, part adult. Learn some discipline and responsibility.

  63. Unregistered Comment by MurdockTheCrazy UNITED STATES

    I don’t think it would have to be mandatory service in the military — just some sort of national service for male and female.

    This could consist of guarding ports, borders, airports, schools, or maybe working in the national forests and parks. There is a whole slew of things that they could do.

    I’ve had an idea for quite some time for a service fitting that discription pretty well [except for the forests thing]. I’ve called it the National Defense Corps. Training for it would be mandatory and would start in the senior highschool year, followed by two years of service. That service would include guarding ports, airports, schools, otherwise high-risk targets [pretty much any skyscraper], helping during disasters and possibly guarding the border as well.

    It would be military service, but there would be a condition that said service must take place inside the service-members home state. No deployment possible for them.

    This does a lot of things. For one it adds a huge amount of manpower for homeland defense and disaster recovery. For another thing it may help kids grow a pair, thus making America a better place. Lastly, it frees up a large number of ‘real’[eg: volunteer] military units for actual military operations [since everyone and their grandmother claims the military is overstretched].

    But I would make such service mandatory for males, and optional for females. That’s just the way I am. Any man with a scrap of sense knows telling women what to do is a bad idea. :P

  64. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie UNITED STATES

    I might be wrong, (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am) but isn’t this the longest period we’ve gone without a military draft?

    Actually DJ, it’s the exact opposite. There have only been a few periods in our history where we had an actual draft. There has alway been Selective Service registration of some sort, as there is now, but the times where a draft was actually instituted have been rare.
    IIRC Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea (?), and Viet Nam. The rest of our wars have all been fought solely by volunteers. Even the majority of troops in these other wars were volunteers. And yes even Viet Nam was fought by mostly volunteers, despite the hippie revisionist history crap.
    In fact, also contrary to the hippies mushroom induced reality, Viet Nam remained a popular war right up until 72-73, with over 50% of the people supporting a successful conclusion even if it meant staying longer. (Read “Unheralded Victory” for the exact numbers and sources).

  65. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    Actually DJ, it’s the exact opposite.

    I knew someone would probably correct me.

    Perhaps I was thinking solely of the past century.

  66. Unregistered Comment by MurdockTheCrazy UNITED STATES

    We had a draft from 1940 until 1973. There was a short break just after WWII but it isn’t even worth considering.

    We also had a draft from 1917 to 1918.

    Basically we’ve had a draft for one third of this century.

    And this is the longest period we’ve gone without a draft, by over a decade.

  67. Unregistered Comment by MurdockTheCrazy UNITED STATES

    *longest period this century.

  68. Unregistered Comment by daddyx

    I just hope I can meet the BMI before the Draftees.

    Heh don’t worry, the Army has its own “fat camp” in the reception station. Also in Basic, you’d probably get to participate in the “Drill Sergeant’s Diet” i.e., split half of your chow with one of the skinny guys in your platoon.

    Overall I’m not big on the idea of a conscript army and never have been.

    However that isn’t to say that it doesn’t have its positive side. So long as there were no exemptions from service, and the first to be drafted into combat units were the children of every politician, journalist, bureacrat in the Federal government, along with the kids of welfare recipients, I’d have little issue with it.

    I also think it would be perfectly fine to mix the “vol’s” with the “scripts”. There’ve been plenty of brave men who’re been drafted, who turned out to be great soldiers. Audie Murphy was drafted into the Army after being told to hit the bricks by the Marine Corps.

  69. Unregistered Comment by Subvet

    As a retired Senior Chief with 22 years in Uncle Sam’s canoe club I’d say going to a draft is D-U-M-B. I saw the transition from the draft to an all volunteer force after joining up in ‘70, so I damned well know whereof I speak. For every Audie Murphy you’ll get five warm bodies just doing their time, waiting for their EAOS.

    And please don’t use the “it’ll make a man out of them” crap. While that may work for other countries such as Germany and Denmark over here it’s only the exception that happens to, your run of the mill shitbag that needs a swift kick in the balls should have gotten it before he hit puberty. By the time they’re in the Nav it’s way too late and they’re only a pain in the ass to their LPO’s and LCPO’s. And while they’re whining about life being unfair their shipmates are taking up their slack. Been there, done that, bought the fucking tee shirt many times over. This isn’t only the canoe club it happens in either. My brother spent eight years in the Corp, he described it as real life, “Adventures In Babysitting”.

    The military shouldn’t EVER be used as a babysitting service, send ‘em to the stinking Peace Corp!

    And if we have the need and we’re really serious about having a larger military, give the troops better pay and benefits. While we’re at it, let’s stop denigrating the military by thinking of it as a workfare program. While I doubt anyone on this site holds that opinion I unfortunately ran into too many clueless civilians during my time.

    Which is why to the day I die I’ll use “civilian” as a cuss word.

  70. LittleRott84 Comment by LittleRott84 UNITED STATES

    You don’t have to worry about that. With that attitude, you will be.

    As to the BMI: Is that a requirement in this country? Sweet Jesus. Where I come from, we didn’t give two shits about the fitness or weight of our recruits. We could fix THAT.

    And we did.

    Yep, these days you have to make certain height and weight standards before you go in. They’re a lot more picky these days.

  71. Xystus Comment by Xystus

    I agree with Subvet. Our forces ain’t broken; don’t try fixing them! Fix Charlie Strangle & Corngrass, maybe…

  72. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    And this is the longest period we’ve gone without a draft, by over a decade.

    So, roughly a generation, right? Previously in at least over the past century, almost every generation had to contend with a draft? It is only this generation that hasn’t seen a draft.