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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » More So-Called “Abuse”

And LC & IB Jay of Stop the ACLU is already all over it. Must-read.

Allegedly, we’re “taking wives of terrorists hostage” to get the bad guys.

Even if it were so, I wouldn’t give a good shit. You marry a terrorist, you get what you fucking deserve. Of course, the allegations are, as usual, built on very flimsy evidence, but such is always the case when the openly subversive, traitorous, terrorist-aiding-and-abetting organization ACLU is involved. Not that we’re trying to demonize them. That would be silly and, as the Instapundit points out, “they do good work.”

So what’s it all about this time? Glad you asked:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. forces in Iraq, in two instances described in military documents, took custody of the wives of men believed to be insurgents in an apparent attempt to pressure the suspects into giving themselves up.

Well, if the legendarily objective and unbiased al-Roto-Reuters are saying it, it just has to be true, so we guess we should just stop here and leave well enough alone. Right.

Both incidents occurred in 2004. In one, members of a shadowy military task force seized a mother who had three young children, still nursing the youngest,

I don’t really give a good fuck how many little terrorists-in-waiting she had suckling at her breast. She was married to a child murderer and, as such, might know something that could help us get the subhuman slime before he murdered again, period. Boo-hoo-fucking-hoo.

…”in order to leverage” her husband’s surrender, according to an account by a civilian Defense Intelligence Agency intelligence officer.

“According to a civilian intelligence officer”, whatever the fuck that might be. Another “whistleblower” who got upset because he didn’t get to run the show and decided to betray classified information to get back at the bastards who didn’t recognize his G-d-like intelligence and skills. Of course, it couldn’t have anything to do with the fact that the wife of a terrorist might, conceivably, know where we could find her hubby.

Find him. Prosecute him. Hang him. If we don’t start cracking down on those blabbermouthes right quick, we might as well give up on the whole concept of “classified information” and start filing daily reports of everything we do with the New York Slimes.

In the other, an e-mail exchange includes a U.S. military officer asking “have you tacked a note on the door and challenged him to come get his wife?”

The documents were among thousands obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union from the government under court order through the Freedom of Information Act.

What? WHAT???

We’re at fucking WAR, people! How the everloving FUCK does information pertaining to our forces on active duty’s methods fall under the FOIA?

Hang that treasonous asshole judge as well.

“This is not an acceptable tactic,” ACLU lawyer Amrit Singh said on Friday, referring to seizing a wife to try to catch a husband,

…a statement we’d be a lot more likely to be interested in if it wasn’t coming from an openly terrorist-supporting organization. As it is, only they, the treasonous Fourth Estate and Glenn Reynolds are likely to give a good damn. Consider the source, say we.

“nor are any of the other abusive techniques acceptable. We know that abusive techniques were employed in a systemic manner across Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay.”

Yet, after having gained inappropriate access to thousands of documents, this is the best you can come up with by way of concrete examples instead of unsubstantiated allegations, libel and slander? Pardon us if we’re not exactly impressed.

Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman at the Pentagon, said: “It’s very hard, obviously, from some of these documents to determine what, if anything, actually happened. … When you see an individual e-mail note, it’s oftentimes very confusing to figure out how that particular case fits into an overall, larger puzzle.”

Indeed it is. But, as has been proven so often in the past, the Seditious Socialist Scum aren’t interested in the larger puzzle. They’re interested in meaningless soundbites that they can blow out of proportion in order to undermine our troops and assist their terrorist allies.

Boyce also said the military has thoroughly looked at “any allegation against soldiers of misconduct or abuse of detainees.”

A June 10, 2004, memo written by the DIA employee, labeled as “secret,” referred to “violations of the Geneva Convention” relating to detainee abuse and illegal detention of noncombatants.

It had BETTER turn out that the “secret” mentioned here was scribbled in crayon by the “whistleblower” and not an official classification or we REALLY want to see the judge issuing the court order dangling from his sagging nutsack.

It described the actions of Task Force 6-26, which has been mentioned in other documents in connection with allegations of detainee abuse, and stated that on May 9, 2004, task force personnel detained the wife of “a suspected terrorist” in Tarmiya, Iraq.

Get over the scare quotes already, al-Roto-Reuters. You’re not fooling anybody anymore.

Yes, he’s a suspect. Yes, he’s suspected of being a terrorist. That makes every single person known to have been in contact with him and possibly holding knowledge about his current whereabouts a “person of interest” to the investigation, and we do believe that his wife would fall under that category, even if she’s got a whole dozen of piglets swarming her nipples.

“The 28-year-old woman had three young children at the house, one being as young as six months and still nursing. Her husband was the primary target of the raid, with other suspect personnel subject to detainment as well,” the memo stated.

“During the pre-operational brief, it was recommended by TF (task force) personnel that if the wife were present, she be detained and held in order to leverage the primary target’s surrender,” the memo stated. Its author said that “I objected to the detainment of the young mother to the raid team leader” and “I believed it was a dead issue.”

Good for you. You had reservations and you pointed them out to the team leader. That’s your right and correct procedure. Now shut the fuck up.

The memo stated that “I determined that the wife could provide no actionable intelligence leading to the arrest of her husband.”

You did, did you? All by your lonesome without ever having even talked to the woman? Damn, it must be wonderful to be an all-seeing, omniscient, clairvoyant little Boy Wonder like that. You don’t need to be in the news. You need to be in therapy.

“Despite my protest, (the) raid team leader detained her anyway,” stated the memo, whose author officially reported the incident within the chain of command.

And then, when that failed to produce the desired result of having you crowned King of Intelligence while the unwashed lesser beings around you groveled at your divine feet, you got pissed off, didn’t you? Narcissists with delusions of adequacy as pervasive as yours tend to react that way, you see. We’ve seen it so many times that we’ve lost count. So you decided to get back at the bastards holding you and your obviously superior skills down, didn’t you? Of course you did, you pathetic little maggot shitbird.

Have him dragged outside and shot before I lose my lunch on him, if you please.

The memo said the wife was released two days later to the custody of a tribal sheik.

A suspect in a terrorist investigation in a time of war was detained for two whole days!?

Oh. The. HUMANITY!!!

Bleeding heart pissants.

In the other case, a U.S. lieutenant colonel e-mailed, “What are you guys doing to try to get the husband — have you tacked a note on the door and challenged him to come get his wife? … or something more sophisticated, I suspect, from the ‘not necessarily the cool guys, but the guys with the cool stuff?”‘

Sounds like a perfectly good idea to me. Unless you’d prefer that we cut off her fingers one by one and send them back to the husband, of course. That’d work for me too. Pardon me if I’m not exactly all jellified with sympathy for the wife of a fucking TERRORIST.

A later e-mail stated, “These ladies fought back extremely hard during the original detention. They have shown indications of deceipt (sic) and misinformation.”

Poor things must have been relying on Reuters for news.

So that’s it, ACLU?

Pathetic.

But then again, so are you. Pathetic to the point where we’d almost feel sorry for you if you were blindfolded and led before a firing squad.

Almost.

63 Responses to “More So-Called “Abuse””
  1. Deathknyte Comment by Deathknyte UNITED STATES

    I am getting tired of hearing about leaks. How about someone do something original and NOT tell the press everything the press wants to hear, in order to get back at someone?

  2. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    I’m getting a little tired of this “Geneva Convention” bullshit.

    These are terrorists. They do not wear identifiable uniforms, carry their weapons openly or conduct their operatons in accord with the laws of war. They are afforded no protection other than that we provide them by charity. They are war criminals, by definition, and they and their spouses may be dealt with as necessary. (Does anyone imagine that, had Hitler fled, we wouldn’t have “detained” Eva Braun?)

    To expect the ACLU to define “acceptable tactics” is as idiotic as asking a moose to solve differential equations.

  3. Michael Comment by Michael UNITED STATES

    In WWII Germans in Uniforms went into US ranks and made havoc in the rear. When captured because they were not in Uniform, they were considered spies and are not covered under that damn peice of paper that libs think protects those goatfuckers who kill americans.

    Hell libs keep deluding themselves. They think there is no war for civilization. Jhon Ringo’s book “the watch on the rhine” is a good allusion to liberal thinking (its sci-fi and with “shock value” and did it shock me.)

  4. Unregistered Comment by readerjp

    Even in the US, with the full rights of an American citizen (or do they get more?) she could be considered an accessory to murder.

    But, considering that Muslims treat their wives lower than shit, probably not an effective tactic to make him come running. Not even for his kids, as we’re talking about a species that turns its own kids into bombers.

  5. Unregistered Comment by Elephant Man UNITED STATES

    I wonder how long it’ll be before The ACLU starts honking and bleating about “The Saddam Show”?

    Saddam trial falls into chaos as it resumes

    Former Iraqi leader removed from court under watch of tough new judge

    “Seeking to assert tight control, the new chief judge Raouf Abdel-Rahman pressed ahead with the proceedings even after the opening drama, hearing three prosecution witnesses before adjourning the trial after 4 hours.”

    Looks like this new judge isn’t going to let Saddam and his trained law-monkeys derail the proceedings with their “Johnnie Cochran” like antics.

    “If the shredder don’t fit, you must acquit” indeed…

    An interesting note:

    Former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, who is part of Saddam’s defense team but did not attend Sunday’s session, denounced the court as “lawless” and repeated calls for it to be moved out of Iraq.

    “Now the court is seated without the defendants’ counsel of choice. This is wrong. They have the right to their own counsel and for that counsel to hear and question testimony made against the defendants,” Clark said, speaking from New York.

    It figures that liberal moonbat “chickenshyster” would defend Saddam from the safety of his office in “The Big Apple”. :lol:

  6. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    I’m getting a little tired of this “Geneva Convention” bullshit

    .

    Damn that pesky law!

    Moriarty, your link is from 2002, months before the Iraq war. It discusses al-Qaeda and the Taliban. The Iraqi resistance is a different animal, with the majority comprised of Sunni insurgents and other nationalist agitators who don’t want us in Iraq anymore. But that’s barely the point. The point is that their family members are protected by the ‘49 convention against hostage-taking, including physical and and moral coercion to gain intelligence information, which I do believe taking someone’s family member falls under. Iraq is a signatory to this law, as are we. It is not a stretch to say we stepped over a line here.

    Here’s an even worse example:

    Abed Mowhoush was taken into custody in November 2003 and was subjected to harsh interrogations that included beatings and unusual techniques. He died while stuffed into a sleeping bag, wrapped in a cord, and with Welshofer straddling his chest. U.S. officials believed he was a major figure in the insurgency around Qaim, Iraq, but had a hard time getting him to talk.

    Mohammed Mowhoush yesterday recalled his own arrest on Oct. 27, 2003, when he and his three brothers were taken from their Qaim home as U.S. forces searched for his father. Mohammed, then 15, said U.S. troops arrived in the early morning darkness with helicopters and armored vehicles, and demanded to see his father.

    “They said if my father did not come and give up, they will send us to Guantanamo,” Mowhoush said, adding that he and his family had been observing Ramadan, but that his father was not home at the time. “That celebration turned into a real tragedy for us. They said if my father does not come, you will never see your family back.”

    Arresting someone to entice relatives to turn themselves in is considered by human rights organizations to be a form of hostage-taking. It is considered illegal in wartime but military investigative documents reveal it has occurred in Iraq.

    Mowhoush said he and his brothers were taken into custody and interrogated for days, with U.S. officials accusing them of carrying out roles in the insurgency. He said he was told they believed he was a sniper, though he said he knew nothing about the war. He and his brothers were not charged with crimes.

    Mowhoush said U.S. troops took his clothes off, poured cold water on him, beat him, and made him get into uncomfortable and painful “stress positions,” as they are known in the military.

    His father later surrendered in an attempt to free his sons, according to classified documents. The military began to use the sons against the general, Mohammed Mowhoush said.

    You guys even care about the hearts and minds of these people anymore, or are we going to continue to anger these people and further delay the peace in Iraq? Or is peace not even in the plans anymore? Because this is not the type of ‘outreach’ we should be conducting.

    I’m not advocating any namby-pamby treatment of bona fide terrorists-but at some point our prosecution of the war on terror inside Iraq in this manner will intersect with widening the insurgency in Iraq.

  7. Unregistered Comment by Elephant Man UNITED STATES

    You guys even care about the hearts and minds of these people anymore, or are we going to continue to anger these people and further delay the peace in Iraq?

    Still with the “Iraq is an unwinnable quagmire engineered by Chimpy Bushitler” meme, eh?

    I don’t think the Shiite majority or the Kurds give two shits about poor General Mowhoush given that he himself was known to deal out torture on occasion. (Most notably against the Shiites in southern Iraq.)

    Oh, the irony….. (Yes, I know we’re supposed to be better then that but still the irony is noteworthy.)

    It’s old news. I heard about this over a year ago.

    Of course Mowhoush’s son was upset that Welshofer only got a reprimand. It’s human nature.

    On the other hand, I’m sure the sons and daughters of Mowhoush’s victims aren’t nearly as angry.

    At any rate, what are you complaining about?

    I seem to recall you lamenting the harsh punishment handed out to those poor soldiers when the blame lied with “higher ups” (i.e. Rumsfeld and “President Chimpy”)

    W.O. Welshofer got a reprimand instead of a heavy jail sentence because of the “murky” standards of interrogation techniques (since clarified).

    Isn’t that what you wanted?

    The Iraqi resistance is a different animal, with the majority comprised of Sunni insurgents and other nationalist agitators who don’t want us in Iraq anymore.

    I suppose that’s why there are groups of the “Sunni insurgency” wanting to negotiate to lay down their arms and join the political process.

    Or that they’re “dropping a dime” on the supposedly “insignificant” al Queda cells operating in Iraq.

    Never mind that the Sunnis voted in unprecedented numbers in the last election.

    My point is that all these “abuses” occured in 2003-2004.

    I haven’t found any credible instances of torture and abuse since then despite numerous websearches.

    It would seem that the abuses have declined dramatically or more likely stopped and the Iraqi people are responding accordingly.

    What is the real motivation for the righteous honkings of the MSM and the liberal moonbat blogs?

    Is it due to a concern for our reputation or is it merely a cynical ploy to bash the Bush administration?

  8. Unregistered Pingback by Inoperable Terran » Make them go away

    […] The ACLU’s all weepy because we’re purportedly kidnapping the wives of terrorists in order to capture them. Now, I don’t see how this works in the first place. Most of these terrorists seemingly have wives for show and camels for go (if you know what I mean), but it seems the charges are probably false anyway. Misha’s got much, much more. Posted by Ian S. in […]

  9. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    Still with the “Iraq is an unwinnable quagmire engineered by Chimpy Bushitler” meme, eh?

    Still with the “everything is going swell and we’re winning the war, nothing to see here” meme?
    Two can play the quotations game.:-)

    I never said it was “engineered” by Bush, that’d be giving him and the rest of the planners way too much credit.

    I don’t think the Shiite majority or the Kurds give two shits about poor General Mowhoush given that he himself was known to deal out torture on occasion. (Most notably against the Shiites in southern Iraq.)

    Aside from the fact that I can’t find anything backing up that assertion, what does this have to do with kidnapping his children?

    Of course Mowhoush’s son was upset that Welshofer only got a reprimand. It’s human nature.

    Yes, and it’s also human nature to want to kill the person who did it. That’s what I’m getting at, things like this foment vengeance. And no, I am not going to hold Iraqis responsible for 9/11 so I won’t entertain any idea that our vengeance is justifiable.

    I seem to recall you lamenting the harsh punishment handed out to those poor soldiers when the blame lied with “higher ups” (i.e. Rumsfeld and “President Chimpy”)

    You don’t have an elephant’s memory, then ;-).
    When Abu Ghraib broke out I thought it was an isolated instance, and only recently have I come around to the fact that the rules were not clear, and questionable techniques used for interrogation leading to things like the general’s murder and Abu Ghraib. I really wanted Karpinski’s head, but all we got was her star. McCain was right-we needed his amendment to send a clear message after what we have done-and then shithead decides to keep it open ended with his signing statement, ‘cuz he’s the president!!!

    I suppose that’s why there are groups of the “Sunni insurgency” wanting to negotiate to lay down their arms and join the political process.

    Then who are these folks?

    Seven bombs targeted churches in Baghdad and Kirkuk, killing three people and wounding 17, officials said Sunday.

    Two car bombs exploded near churches in Kirkuk, killing three people and wounding 11 others, the chief of Kirkuk police said Sunday. Kirkuk is 180 miles (290 kilometers) north of Baghdad.

    Five bombs exploded Sunday afternoon in Baghdad, one of which wounded six people. There were no casualties in the other four blasts, officials said.

    One other car bomb exploded in the capital. The explosion appeared to target an Interior Ministry convoy in southwestern Baghdad, police said. Two Interior Ministry police commandos and three civilians were injured.

    Sorry, but I’m not going to buy this new bit of ‘good news’ like I used to. You keep getting told its getting better, that the insurgency is in its last throes, and yet it goes on.

    Or that they’re “dropping a dime” on the supposedly “insignificant” al Queda cells operating in Iraq.

    Yeah, yeah, I read Army news feeds too. Nice and sanitized, bad stuff downplayed.

    My point is that all these “abuses” occured in 2003-2004.

    No need to put quotes around it. They were abuses, plain and simple.

    I haven’t found any credible instances of torture and abuse since then despite numerous websearches.

    Well, admitting there were some is a start. But you’re 2 years late. Im not casting aspersions since I too have been guilty as sin of looking the other way or not believing anything I read.

    What is the real motivation for the righteous honkings of the MSM and the liberal moonbat blogs?

    Is it due to a concern for our reputation or is it merely a cynical ploy to bash the Bush administration?

    Does it matter? The Bush administration has done enough to hang itself out to dry, there’s no need to play it up. And there’s really no rational reason why anyone would want to bash Bush just because he makes a nice pinata, except maybe for fun. But anyway, aren’t you concerned about our reputation?

  10. juandos Comment by juandos UNITED STATES

    Ron quacks: “The Bush administration has done enough to hang itself out to dry, there’s no need to play it up. And there’s really no rational reason why anyone would want to bash Bush just because he makes a nice pinata, except maybe for fun. But anyway, aren’t you concerned about our reputation?“…

    Dude, just what planet are you from? Is it within 80 million light years of reality?

    What are these alledged actions that supposedly allowed the Bush administration to hang itself out to dry?

  11. AyUaxe Comment by AyUaxe UNITED STATES

    When was war declared? Sadly, pitifully, our limp-dicked government has not declared war, so we actually have no business being where we are or doing what our gallant soldiers are doing on foreign soil. They are even moreso heros for achieving the amazing, positive results they’ve gotten with both hands and one foot tied behind their backs. We should have declared war and made it one of total commitment and total, overwhelming force on the afternoon of 9/11/01. We have nukes that need to be dismantled, that needed and still needs to be done by detonation over a good target–like Mecca during the Haj or anywhere there’s ululating. Calling all nitwits and dhimmis–figure it out–Islam is at war with everyone else and even it’s own peaceloving folks. It is no more a religion than any other death cult. They are a medieval enemy–only overwhelming carnage and force directed straight to their idiotic superstitions will achieve the necessary. We did not nuke Hiroshima because it was convenient, cheap, or satisfied some blood-lust to do so–it was done because a radicalized and brainwashed culture had to be shown, graphically, that their ruler was not a god and their whole martial culture had been built on superstitious lies. Islam is no different (except that it’s less civilized and generally nastier). Until we have the resolve to immediately make it dramatically and irretrievably more costly to oppose us than it is to unconditionally surrender, “quagmire” will be the only way to describe any conflict we’re involved in. I hope for all our sakes that Bush will declare war, so that we can fight and defeat this fiendish enemy on every front, foreign and domestic.

  12. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    Dude, just what planet are you from? Is it within 80 million light years of reality?

    Coming from you, I’ll take this as a compliment.

    What are these alledged actions that supposedly allowed the Bush administration to hang itself out to dry?

    Unstick your dial from whatever AM talk radio station you’ve been listening to, shut Fox off on TV and don’t visit Newsmax, WorldNetDaily, or Cybercast News Service when you surf the web.

    You will be amazed at the world out there.

    God, everyone here thinks Bush is a jackass for assorted reasons as well, did you not get the memo?

  13. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    They voted to end debate on Alito just now. I’d check out Left Blogistan for some killer entertainment. It’s gonna be fun, don’t miss out!There will be much wearing of ashes and sackcloth today, I tell you.

    Just so’s you all know I am not completely lost I did not find any of the left’s arguments for a filibuster terribly compelling, nor any of the complaints about him-didn’t amount to much but paranoia as far as I could tell.

  14. Unregistered Comment by LC Scotty

    Frankly, I don’t believe that we are targeting the wives and children of terrorists.

    If we are, however, it is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

    We rightly call the tangoes gutlesss turds when they target out women and children. We call them gutless turds because our women and children are unarmed non-combatants. We feel protective of our women and children, and in fact we are protective of everybody’s women and children. It is our nature as honorable people.

    If it’s a gutless move for them to target our women and children, either with bombs or kidnapping, then it’s a gutless move for us to do it too. And yes, I do see a gulf of diffefence between murder and kidnapping. However, I really was shocked at the reaction of folks here, a group with a keen and highly developed sense of honor (no sarcasm, just straight up admiration), and their endorsement of grabbing unarmed non-coms.

    Imagine the outrage if the tangoes grabbed wives and children of our servicemen with the intent to make them turn themselves in to the terrorists. This is behavior that is absolutely beneath the conduct of this country and her brave uniformed folks.

    We are better than this. I have no problem treating the terrorists roughly, making them sit uncomfortably with loud music and scantily clad women rubbing their breasts on them and all the other Gitmo “horrors”.

  15. Emperor Darth Misha I Comment by Emperor Darth Misha I UNITED STATES

    Good points, LC Scotty.

    However, if that was our intention (i.e. using the families of terrorists as leverage to make the murdering swine turn themselves in), I don’t think that “or else we’re going to house and feed her for a couple of days and send her home again” would be the way to approach it.

    Which is all that the ACLU has here. Not to mention that the “they were using her as leverage” is based on a memo from one disgruntled civilian with an entirely too high opinion of himself and his skills who got pissed off that the rest of the chain of command didn’t immediately drop trou and worship at his feet.

  16. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    Ron,

    I took the liberty of passing along your comments to my best friend, recently returned from a year in Iraq with the Idaho National Guard. He was tasked as a drill instructor for their military, training Kurds, Shiites, Sunnis and Christians. (He had a good laugh at your “hearts and minds” comment. I’ll spare you his detailed comments on “dipshit civilian armchair quarterbacks.”)

    Iraq is a signatory to this law, as are we.

    Yep. And Saddam has been deposed and Iraq is now governed by an elected, constitutional body with whom we are not at war.

    Kindly indicate where al-Zaquari signed the Conventions.

    Since you missed the point the first time around, let me make it plain to you: The “insurgency” does not represent a recognizable government, either present in Iraq or in exile. (They are, however, reasonably considered as terrorists. ) We are not at war with Iraq or the Iraqi military in any of its forms. We remain in Iraq with the assent of its people and government. It is therefore not rational to regard Iraq as being in the hands of an enemy occupying power as defined under Article 4 of the Fourth Convention. I can find no reference in the Geneva Conventions extending protection to criminal insurgents or their families.

    Please cite qualified international legal opinion to the contrary.

  17. Blackiswhite Comment by Blackiswhite UNITED STATES

    I wasn’t sure how I felt about this story the first time I heard it. I have always tried to picture myself in the other guy’s shoes. However, I can’t get away from a couple of points in regard to this story.

    1. We don’t know how many “Insurgents” are actually Iraqis and how many are splodeydopes for Allah sent by other nations to attack us, because they know if the ‘democracy thing’ catches on, they are screwed.

    2. Even if they are Iraqis, they are likely to be former benficiaries of Sodamn Insane’s rule, and therefore, will not inspire a lot of regret in the remaining population that is being attacked by these knuckleheads.

    3. If they are Iraqi, but part of the aforementioned group, then I have no doubt that their wives received better treatment at our hands then if left to the tender mercies of the splodeydopes. I suspect that if it were true, said splodeydopes would think nothing of deliberately infecting their sperm recepticles wives with a nasty, comunicable bug that is highly infectious, with a high mortality rate, just in the hopes of killing a few infidels.

  18. Unregistered Comment by olga UNITED STATES

    well, Ron, I am getting MY news about Iraq from Iraq, with many of my Marines being there on several tours; one is currently there on his 3rd extended tour. And the news is there is NO quagmire or anything like it. This is from the boots on the ground not some reporter sitting in the Green Zone.

    Second, I think we, as a nation, need to dig up the English dictionary and work on our terminology. ‘Torture’ is NOT ‘detaining a suspected terrorist’s wife for a couple of days.’ While the insurgents do “target” iraqi civilians, women and children, with IEDs and VBIED, our military does NOT ‘target’ these Iraqi civilians when we detain a suspected terrorist’s wife for a couple of days.
    Finally, ACLU needs to be called what it truly is: traitors. This organization opposed EVERY anti-terrorist measure and law proposed and used by the US government.

  19. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    (He had a good laugh at your “hearts and minds” comment. I’ll spare you his detailed comments on “dipshit civilian armchair quarterbacks.”)

    Farankly, I couldn’t give a fuck about your macho little buddy’s opinion. I’m a soldier too and I’ve met plenty who are goddamn wrong in their attitude towards detainees.

    We remain in Iraq with the assent of its people and government.

    You, sir, are bonkers. I can’t have a discussion with someone so plainly out of touch with reality. Iraq never asked us to come bomb their fucking country, kill 10,000 plus “liberating” them, and then leave the post occupation infrastructure in worse shape than it was under Saddam in such a way that they are actually saying it was better under him. God, diversify your news sources, you haven’t got the slightest idea what is going on there. That fucking government? Created by us, of course it’s going to approve of us. Don’t give me any shit about “the people elected it”. We created the interim, laid out the hierarchy, picked the people, kept the cars out of the streets so people could vote, everything except carry them to the polls.

    enemy occupying power

    Who ever said this was a condition of applying article 4? It’s guidelines for occupying countries, plain and simple.

    They are, however, reasonably considered as terrorists.

    BUT THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS ARE NOT.

    You and tools like your instructor friend keep arranging the chess pieces any way you want. Just remember that’s part of what’s fucking up this occupation.

  20. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    I have always tried to picture myself in the other guy’s shoes.

    Thank you, Blackiswhite. That’s all I was asking for.

  21. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    ‘Torture’ is NOT ‘detaining a suspected terrorist’s wife for a couple of days.’

    No one said it was! However, telling a guys 15 yr old son that he’s going to Guantanamo after you’ve kidnapped them if their dad won’t come to get them is pretty fucked up.The kid:

    Mohammed Mowhoush said he and his brothers want to sue Welshofer for his role in their father’s death. Mowhoush said he has nothing against the American people but harbors ill feelings for the U.S. Army. “We want justice to be done,” he said.

    That right there-that is a problem.Could spread like a disease. Already has.

  22. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    Emperor,you oughta be happy right now about Alito. Why no celebration? The meltdown has been amusing so far. I have to go to work so I can’t bring highlights, unfortunately.

  23. Unregistered Comment by readerjp

    I believe the “10,000 Iraqis killed” was part of a shoddy statistical argument by The Lancet which has since been disproved.

  24. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    God, diversify your news sources, you haven’t got the slightest idea what is going on there.

    I have a plethora of first-hand correspondence from friends, military and civilian, who are or have been in Iraq. My news sources are likely more diverse than yours, but that comes as no surprise given your parroting of shopworn memes.

    You are clearly ignorant of matters regarding Iraq, the Iraqi people, their culture, their history, their politics, their current state of affairs or their aspirations. If you think for one instant that Hussein enjoyed popular support or that the recent elections were somehow rigged for the benefit of the coalition, you are utterly delusional. That you can’t comprehend the “insurgency” is a failed effort brands you as an inept student of politics and history. That you’re unable to understand that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to the question at hand marks you as incapable of following even a simple line of logic or of constructing a worthwhile argument.

    You fail on every point of rational discourse.

    This leads me to conclude, belatedly, that you’re exactly what you appear to be - a particularly immature, shrill example of a “widening insurgency” in American society that is incapable of critical thinking, much less engaging in a thoughtful, reasoned discussion on any topic of substance.

    If somehow we were to fail in Iraq, it’s painfully obvious to me why it would be so.

  25. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    readerjp,

    The “100,000 civilian dead” conclusion in The Lancet article was based on sample bias and astonishing abuse of statistical method. (Slate provides a fair “plain English” explanation of how confidence intervals were misused.)

    To find such exaggeration in the popular media is expected, as their goal is to maintain and increase circulation. To see scientific misconduct of this sort in peer-reviewed journals is horrifying. Unfortunately, The Lancet now joins company with JAMA and the New England Journal of Medicine. It’s no wonder social scientists snicker when physicians attempt public health “research.”

  26. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    I believe the “10,000 Iraqis killed” was part of a shoddy statistical argument by The Lancet which has since been disproved.

    I think they said it was 100,000.

  27. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    You are clearly ignorant of matters regarding Iraq, the Iraqi people, their culture, their history, their politics, their current state of affairs or their aspirations.

    Oh, give me a break. Who do you think you are, professor emeritus of Iraqi history? You’re full of hot air, you can’t even try to critique my understanding when you have demonstrated none of your own.

    If you think for one instant that Hussein enjoyed popular support or that the recent elections were somehow rigged for the benefit of the coalition, you are utterly delusional.

    I never said either of those things, windbag. Hussein enjoyed some support by his Sunni brethren and thats about the size of it. The elections were not rigged, I said they were set up by us, supported by us, would have never happened if not for us. Capiche?

    That you can’t comprehend the “insurgency” is a failed effort brands you as an inept student of politics and history.

    Enlighten me, smart guy. Tell me why the insurgency is always about to end according to various WH people and it doesn’t. Is there any explanation for the White House’s disconnect?

    That you’re unable to understand that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to the question at hand marks you as incapable of following even a simple line of logic or of constructing a worthwhile argument.

    Oh, blow me. I am far from the first person or organization to say so. Not that you’d have any idea what anyone is saying outside your safe media sources and your friends.

    This leads me to conclude, belatedly, that you’re exactly what you appear to be - a particularly immature, shrill example of a “widening insurgency” in American society that is incapable of critical thinking, much less engaging in a thoughtful, reasoned discussion on any topic of substance.

    Zzzzz…you done proclaiming, professor? My, I thought this type of condescension only came from the ivory towers of the Left, but I guess there are highfalutin wankers on both sides.

  28. Unregistered Comment by Elephant Man UNITED STATES

    The following quote sums up Ron’s position in a nutshell.

    You, sir, are bonkers. I can’t have a discussion with someone so plainly out of touch with reality. Iraq never asked us to come bomb their fucking country, kill 10,000 plus “liberating” them, and then leave the post occupation infrastructure in worse shape than it was under Saddam in such a way that they are actually saying it was better under him. God, diversify your news sources, you haven’t got the slightest idea what is going on there. That fucking government? Created by us, of course it’s going to approve of us. Don’t give me any shit about “the people elected it”. We created the interim, laid out the hierarchy, picked the people, kept the cars out of the streets so people could vote, everything except carry them to the polls.

    So you’re saying that we should have left Saddam in power and that the elections were rigged. (Not to mention that anyone who doesn’t think Iraq is an “unwinnable quagmire” is “out of touch with reality“)

    The elections were not rigged, I said they were set up by us, supported by us, would have never happened if not for us. Capiche?

    They weren’t? I could have sworn you just said….hmmmmmm…. wait a minute, I got it!

    So you’re saying that it’s a “puppet government controlled by/kissing the ass of the U.S. Military and President Chimpy”!

    Got it!

    Now that’s spin worthy of The Washington Post! ;-)

    However, telling a guys 15 yr old son that he’s going to Guantanamo after you’ve kidnapped them if their dad won’t come to get them is pretty fucked up.

    I agree! We should have threatened to saw off his head with a rusty butcher knife. That’s the Sunni/al Queda way. :lol:

    Unstick your dial from whatever AM talk radio station you’ve been listening to, shut Fox off on TV and don’t visit Newsmax, WorldNetDaily, or Cybercast News Service when you surf the web.

    You will be amazed at the world out there.

    There’s Daily kos, Huffington Post, DU, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The LA Times, CNN, MSNBC, and Michael Moore!

    All totally unbiased! :koolaid: here, bringing you fun….

    What was that about “being out of touch with reality”? :lol:

    Who do you think you are, professor emeritus of Iraqi history? You’re full of hot air, you can’t even try to critique my understanding when you have demonstrated none of your own.

    Now that’s a sword that cuts both ways.

    Tell me why the insurgency is always about to end according to various WH people and it doesn’t. Is there any explanation for the White House’s disconnect?

    When did the people at the White House say the insurgency is about to end?

    Er, They didn’t. Talk about a “disconnect”.

    But enough of this pointless snarking and bantering!

    Emperor,you oughta be happy right now about Alito. Why no celebration? The meltdown has been amusing so far.

    That it has! Did you catch any of Ted Zeppelin’s hysterical ranting with his face turning all purple and puffy? :lol:

    I’m praying that Bush mentions Alito’s confirmation in tonight’s SOTU address.

    It’s bound to make Ted’s head explode like a giant zit!

    Then we can really celebrate… :calvin:

  29. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant UNITED STATES

    Farankly, I couldn’t give a fuck about your macho little buddy’s opinion.

    No, Ronnie boy, the only opinions you seem to care about nowadays are yours and that of the little Korean geisha whose ass you’re tapping.

    I’m a soldier too

    So was Kerry. So was Murtha. Seems you’ve made the decision to follow in their footsteps.

    And you wring your hands in angst and wonder why few here take you seriously any more… :shake:

  30. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    So you’re saying that we should have left Saddam in power and that the elections were rigged. (Not to mention that anyone who doesn’t think Iraq is an “unwinnable quagmire” is “out of touch with reality“)

    Gack! I did not say the elections were rigged! I have no love for Saddam, he was a dangerous expansionist who got exactly what he deserved in ‘91. But we cannot go around whacking every dictator that walks on humanitarian grounds, as much as that idea is appealing, it is untenable.

    Some mistakes: We took the word of Iraqi expat intellectuals who hadn’t set foot in Iraq since heaven knows when that Iraq wanted a secular democracy. Bzzt! Wrong, as the elections bore out. Then we lowball the number of troops based on the Afghan model, and the country goes berserk on a looting spree. We disband the Iraqi army and are reduced to scrounging for any Iraqi who wants a job to sign up, and they can’t even be counted on to show up for training half the time. We disgrace our image by sending out troops to detain and interrogate who have no idea what the rules are and then they lash out and mistreat civilians and detainees, abetted by people in the administration who are amenable to some very questionable techniques of information gathering. And the low troop level and the hostility to our presence has disabled us from protecting regular Iraqis daily-witness the absurd violence daily that we are powerless to stop. THE CURRENT STRATEGY, whatever that is, is not working. Possible solutions: a draft, or a withdrawal leaving behind special forces and air support to the new government. But this long hard slog , this steady state of slow bleed without appreciable change is kicking our ass. It’s the height of stubbornness to continue in this manner, and I am no longer interested in seeing Americans die for a bad decision, if not several. Im tired of hearing about the deaths, and the close to 20000 wounded, not to mention all the kids who will have PTSD for the rest of their lives as a result of things they did and saw. Sometimes these things are necessary. I do not believe anymore that this is.

    I hope things turn around. I am skeptical as of now.

    There’s Daily kos, Huffington Post, DU, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The LA Times, CNN, MSNBC, and Michael Moore!

    I read the Post, CNN and that’s about it. I’m also reading a great book on the leadup and execution of the war called “The Assassin’s Gate”, truly an eye opener from a journalist with close ties to Iraqi expats who had the veep’s ear. Eye opening to say the least.

    Now that’s a sword that cuts both ways.

    Smartass. :finger: Just kidding.

    When did the people at the White House say the insurgency is about to end?

    Two come off the top of my head, Cheney and then that NR cover story by Rich Lowry, “We’re Winning”. Granted, Rich is not WH, but if you want I will go find more. Consider the endless positive statistics that Rumsfeld quotes that, um, endlessly change depending on who you talk to. Rumsfeld, to his credit, has said this fucker will take 5-12 years to put down, but that doesnt sound like the ’slam dunk’ the President, you and I were sold.

    Misha, I’m sorry I’ve been a total dick tonight. I’m totally OT, but to get back to it, I’m not on board with fucking with family members. I met those people and they were just like you and me. I’m trying to think golden rule here.

  31. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    And you wring your hands in angst and wonder why few here take you seriously any more…

    It’s cool, Spats, I can take a few hits.

    For the last time, you and BC, I am not getting any ass for this!!! :lol:

  32. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    Well, Ron, I thought if you got a little scratch it would expose a rich vein of sophistic bile.

    I love being right.

    That sense of annoyance you get everytime someone posts something with which you don’t agree? It lies in near-perfect inverse proportion to your ability to form a cogent response.

    And you wring your hands in angst and wonder why few here take you seriously any more…

    (Sigh. As usual, Spats puts it more succinctly.)

  33. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    And the professor sits back, confident of his superiority,even though he hasn’t done shit but insist I don’t know what I’m talking about.

    When are you gonna show me your encyclopedic knowledge of the history and politics of Iraq?

    Oh, that’s right, it’s not worth arguing with me. That was an exciting debate. You walk away and claim victory before you even say anything. Cute trick. Boring, but cute.

  34. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    So why are we the ones yawning?

  35. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    Oh, and for the record, now that this thread is effectively farked:

    I never said I had encyclopedic knowledge of Iraq. You did.

    (More evidence of the obvious.)

  36. SoCalOilMan Comment by SoCalOilMan UNITED STATES

    Sometimes these things are necessary. I do not believe anymore that this is.

    I’m a soldier too

    Ron, if I had these two things weighing on me perhaps my arguments would be the same as your’s. If you really believe, or have serious doubts about how your going to deal with the possibility of being stationed in the ME would affect you. Get out now.

    If you don’t believe in what is trying to be accomplished there you would be like a lifeguard that’s afraid of water. Wanting to do the job, but just not able commit to the task. And that’s the funny thing about the military, they don’t ask if you want to do something, they just expect you to do it.

    You seem to really care about the US, but have reservations about policy. If your a soldier you don’t think about policy, you carry out policy.

    You are looking for answers that are not going to be found here. I’ve enjoyed your posts and how they rile up the citizens. You’re respectful but damn persistant. To me, and probably most here, this is a black and white issue. They are bad and we are trying to be the best we can.

  37. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    Ron, if I had these two things weighing on me perhaps my arguments would be the same as your’s. If you really believe, or have serious doubts about how your going to deal with the possibility of being stationed in the ME would affect you. Get out now.

    Already been, would go again with pride.

    If you don’t believe in what is trying to be accomplished there you would be like a lifeguard that’s afraid of water. Wanting to do the job, but just not able commit to the task. And that’s the funny thing about the military, they don’t ask if you want to do something, they just expect you to do it.

    Hang on, hang on, I never said I didn’t want to help Iraq. I totally do. I am saying the things that have been done at high levels has screwed this thing up quite badly.

    If your a soldier you don’t think about policy, you carry out policy.

    I know. I am getting out in ‘08. Not so much because of Iraq, but it’s just not the place I want to be, I’m tired of being away from home-got two young boys who I see every other year lately.

    You are looking for answers that are not going to be found here.

    Well, I started by disagreeing about bringing family members into custody, but it is a sensitive subject and it’s easy to get sidetracked by the macro view of this thing.

    But thanks, SoCal. I don’t come in here to troll,I’m just having a bit of a political crisis. I’ve realized I’m caught between Stupid and Incompetent for political parties.

  38. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    I never said I had encyclopedic knowledge of Iraq. You did.

    Eat shit. You told me I was:

    clearly ignorant of matters regarding Iraq, the Iraqi people, their culture, their history, their politics, their current state of affairs or their aspirations.

    which implies that YOU are in a position to tell me so. You are not the slickest debater in the world, but you are fairly slippery, I’ll give you that.

  39. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    Oh, and SoCal, please, please don’t call me respectful, I won’t be able to tell Moriarty to eat shit without ruining my reputation. I learned at the Emperor’s blogknee how to be a raging asshole in public but a nice guy in reality.

    My apologies to anyone who knows this Moriarty better than I do should I be wrong about him.

  40. SoCalOilMan Comment by SoCalOilMan UNITED STATES

    I just love to watch the escalation of invectives. When the words start flying that’s when you know buttons are being pushed and I get an insite on what both sides of the argument are really pushing for. I’ve learned more here in the last year than in the last 10 years.

    By the way, I think you’re going in the wrong direction on this thread. I think this whole thing stemmed out of haul’em in, we can hold them for 48 hours, they if there is no proof they did anything wrong….let ‘em go. Kinda like the police do here.

  41. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    By the way, I think you’re going in the wrong direction on this thread. I think this whole thing stemmed out of haul’em in, we can hold them for 48 hours, they if there is no proof they did anything wrong….let ‘em go. Kinda like the police do here.

    No, check back, this is about detaining family members to get suspected insurgents to surrender, something I can’t agree with because I think that the majority of the resistance is to us, and our insurgent problem has been amplified by our presence. It’s easy to call them terrorists, but that requires a mischaracterization of the lion’s share of the insurgency. If this is not illegal, then it certainly is not helping our image. How would we feel? Like picking up an RPG and telling all our friends to do so too? I dont need the answer to that. Getting the hell out of this would be best for everyone involved.

  42. Unregistered Comment by Elephant Man UNITED STATES

    Gack! I did not say the elections were rigged!

    I know, I figured it out. You were saying we installed a puppet government run by Chimpy Bushitler and the U.S. Military. ;-)

    I have no love for Saddam, he was a dangerous expansionist who got exactly what he deserved in ‘91. But we cannot go around whacking every dictator that walks on humanitarian grounds, as much as that idea is appealing, it is untenable.

    The thing is, thanks to Russia, France an Germany, Saddam was going to have the sanctions dropped against him wherepon he would have reconstituted his WMDs (if not nuclear, then at least his chemical and biological weapons) and resumed his expansionist ways.

    Saddam was like a stubborn and stupid mule. No matter how many times we whacked him over the head, he would have continued his bullshit and the U.S. having to come back again and again to deal with it.

    Some mistakes: We took the word of Iraqi expat intellectuals who hadn’t set foot in Iraq since heaven knows when that Iraq wanted a secular democracy. Bzzt! Wrong, as the elections bore out.

    You mean tha Islamic theocracy that’s stridently demanding that we get the f**k out of their country? Wrong. (Dammit where’d you put that buzzer?)

    Then we lowball the number of troops based on the Afghan model, and the country goes berserk on a looting spree.

    The looting spree that turns out was grossly exxagerated by CNN, The Washington Post and the rest of the “unbiased media”?

    We disband the Iraqi army and are reduced to scrounging for any Iraqi who wants a job to sign up, and they can’t even be counted on to show up for training half the time.

    We should have trusted those goodwilled Republican Guard chaps and let them “watch our 6″!

    Yep! Good idea! :lol:

    Or were you talking about those partially trained conscripts rounded up by the above mentioned Republican Guard to be used as cannon fodder?

    They sure would have been useful! :lol:

    About those on folks who can’t be counted on to show up. Are you talking about the guys who get car bombs set off in their midst yet keep coming back to sign up sometimes as soon as they brush the body parts off of them?

    You mean those guys?

    Or is Michael Yon and his “ilk” that report such things happening with regularity just right-wing lackeys for the Bush administration…..

    We disgrace our image by sending out troops to detain and interrogate who have no idea what the rules are and then they lash out and mistreat civilians and detainees, abetted by people in the administration who are amenable to some very questionable techniques of information gathering.

    So Abu Graib and the death of Mowhoush was “the norm” was it?

    How about that savage and beastly concentration camp in Gitmo where those terrorist assholes er, “poor innocent civilians” are treated to three specially catered “hots” and a cot along with Korans and prayer rugs.

    Unspeakable horror! Damn that Chimpy Bushitler!

    And the low troop level and the hostility to our presence has disabled us from protecting regular Iraqis daily-witness the absurd violence daily that we are powerless to stop.

    The same could be said about any blighted urban center in the U.S.

    Ever been to Detroit, South central L.A. or Camden N.J.? :lol:

    THE CURRENT STRATEGY, whatever that is, is not working.

    In your opinion.

    Possible solutions: a draft,

    Why? part of “THE CURRENT STRATEGY” is to withdraw troops (Which is happening, by the way) as Iraqi forces come on line)

    Of course, a “draft” would really make the idiotic “Iraq is Vietnam” analogy ring more true with the assorted liberal moonbats that like to parrot that meme.

    By the way, wasn’t their a vote on reintating the draft put forth awhile back by the democrats that was resoundingly defeated?

    Kind of like Murtha’s “cut and run” er, strategic redeployment idea.

    The democrats “talk the talk” but sure don’t “walk the walk” now do they.

    Too bad they don’t mention that on CNN or in The Washington Post.

    or a withdrawal leaving behind special forces and air support to the new government.

    Like I said before, that’s part of “THE CURRENT STRATEGY”. As Iraqi forces come on line, they’ll replace our troops so eventually (as in the next year or so by current projections) all that will be left is special forces and air support.

    But this long hard slog ,

    As Bush has mentioned repeatedly. That whole “Stay the course” thing that the left holds with such contempt)

    this steady state of slow bleed without appreciable change is kicking our ass. It’s the height of stubbornness to continue in this manner, and I am no longer interested in seeing Americans die for a bad decision, if not several. Im tired of hearing about the deaths, and the close to 20000 wounded, not to mention all the kids who will have PTSD for the rest of their lives as a result of things they did and saw. Sometimes these things are necessary. I do not believe anymore that this is.

    And there it is.

    The main strategy of the Iraqi insurgency and al Queda that they’ve been honking since the beginning..

    Keep up the pressure and the Americans will fold up and “cut and run”. Just like in Viet Nam, Beirut and Somalia.

    I’m sure they’d thank you for giving credence to their strategy. :shake:

    I hope things turn around. I am skeptical as of now.

    That’s good to know. At least you’re not totally consumed with “Bush Derangement Syndrome”. ;-)

    I read the Post, CNN and that’s about it. I’m also reading a great book on the leadup and execution of the war called “The Assassin’s Gate”, truly an eye opener from a journalist with close ties to Iraqi expats who had the veep’s ear. Eye opening to say the least.

    I’d suggest reading The Washington Times and surfing through various news networks (including Fox) for “balance”.

    While it’s all too easy to go That network is full of biased :poop:, switching up networks on a regular basis does give a better overall picture.

    As far as Assassin’s Gate goes, I’ll give it a read though I tend to suspect it’s chock full of “quagmiry goodness”. (Just kidding but the flowery praise heaped upon it by the usual liberal Bush and neo-con hating supects raised a “red flag” with me.)

    Here’s a seemingly impartial review of that book for any curious LCs and GLORs

    Cheney and then that NR cover story by Rich Lowry, “We’re Winning”. Granted, Rich is not WH, but if you want I will go find more. Consider the endless positive statistics that Rumsfeld quotes that, um, endlessly change depending on who you talk to. Rumsfeld, to his credit, has said this fucker will take 5-12 years to put down, but that doesnt sound like the ’slam dunk’ the President, you and I were sold.

    Um, Cheney said that the insurgency should be over by the time this administration is over. That’s three years from now.

    That’s hardly a statement filled with hubris. (Unless of course, you’re of the “Iraq is a neverending quagmire” mindset.)

    I never heard Bush claim it was going to be a “slam dunk”.

    I heard plenty of liberal moonbats screeching it wasn’t going to be a “slam dunk”.

    In fact, the democrat/liberal moonbat assumption of the time was that Iraq would be awash in American corpses and that taking Baghdad would be like taking Stalingrad.

    They clung to this meme, breathlessly hanging on Bagdad Bob’s every word right up until he was giving that press conference saying Bagdad was “impenetrable” while American tanks rolled by behind him…

    I don’t think the “quagmire moonbats” ever quite got over that one…. :lol:

    For the last time, you and BC, I am not getting any ass for this!!!

    Are you sure? C’mon you can tell us! ;-)

    “Prease Ron! You terr your fliends that Ilaq is unwinnable and me love you long time!” :lol:

  43. Unregistered Comment by Elephant Man UNITED STATES

    I forgot to mention that I’m going to give Assassin’s Gate a try if I can find it at the bookstore.

    I got sidetracked by the hilarious memory of Bagdad Bob and posting the photo of the North Korean “hottie” that’s prompting Ron towards his “negative outlook” (allegedly) ;-)

  44. SoCalOilMan Comment by SoCalOilMan UNITED STATES

    E Man:

    South central L.A.

    Didn’t you know South Central L.A. doesn’t exist anymore? It’s now South Los Angeles and there are no gangs or shootings anymore.

    Ron:

    I think that the majority of the resistance is to us, and our insurgent problem has been amplified by our presence.

    I agree with you on this, however….of course they are going to resist “us”. We are the ones with the power in the region so who else are they going to poke at. But I can’t believe you think that we are there for anything other than to do what we said we wanted to do.

    All this crap that is coming to a head in the ME was going to happen sooner or later soon. With Hammas running the Paliswinians and that wacko president in Iran, this is just the point in time where the hammer strikes the anvil. We just happen to be the lucky SOB’s that have to deal with it.

  45. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    The thing is, thanks to Russia, France an Germany, Saddam was going to have the sanctions dropped

    I think we have veto on that as permanent member-I don’t think this would have happened.

    So Abu Graib and the death of Mowhoush was “the norm” was it?

    Let’s just say it’s going a bit beyond isolated incidents now. How about I raise you a few Shi’a secret prisons and a few extraordinary renditions?

    You mean tha Islamic theocracy that’s stridently demanding that we get the f**k out of their country?

    Whoa! Excluded middle, 10 yards for muddying the debate! The majority of seats went to The United Iraqi Alliance, which is comprised of SCIRI and…someone else, both Islamic political parties. Allawi’s coalition got stomped.

    The same could be said about any blighted urban center in the U.S.

    This is way worse and you know it. Joker.

    Why? part of “THE CURRENT STRATEGY” is to withdraw troops (Which is happening, by the way) as Iraqi forces come on line)

    I cant say I have too much confidence in the floating numbers from(insert administration official here who somehow doesn’t have their talking points straight).

    By the way, wasn’t their a vote on reintating the draft put forth awhile back by the democrats that was resoundingly defeated?

    The draft is a shitty solution, I’ll give you that, but it might help forces resemble the troop estimates of certain commanders who suddenly were “disappeared”. Rangel was a numbfuck anyway, I never understood why he would vote against his own resolution, which brings us to:

    Kind of like Murtha’s “cut and run” er, strategic redeployment idea.

    I think that resolution was totally misrepresented, especially by the Republican version of it. If it was the same resolution, why was it rewritten?

    The main strategy of the Iraqi insurgency and al Queda that they’ve been honking since the beginning..

    Keep up the pressure and the Americans will fold up and “cut and run”. Just like in Viet Nam, Beirut and Somalia.

    Sometimes, at some point, you just gotta throw your hands up and go “fuck it”. No really, like I said, withdraw to Kuwait, provide air support to the government, training and special forces. Maybe lowering our silouhette will help. And I am aware that I have mentioned two contradictory strategies because I myself do not know what is right, but my point is let’s think about what is wrong and the best way to fix. I lean toward withdrawal at this point.

    I’d suggest reading The Washington Times and surfing through various news networks (including Fox) for “balance”.

    Isn’t the Washington Times owned by Sun Myung-Moon or something?

    As far as Assassin’s Gate goes, I’ll give it a read though I tend to suspect it’s chock full of “quagmiry goodness”. (Just kidding but the flowery praise heaped upon it by the usual liberal Bush and neo-con hating supects raised a “red flag” with me.)

    Actually, it goes all the way back to the origins of neoconservative thinking as being…wait for it…a product of the the schism of the student activist LEFT!!! Who learned a totally different lesson from Vietnam.

    Um, Cheney said that the insurgency should be over by the time this administration is over. That’s three years from now.

    I’ll give you this one, but there is no appreciable decline in violence just yet, and damn, Dick, could there be a bigger cognitive dissonance between “last throes” and “four years from now?

    “The level of activity that we see today from a military standpoint, I think, will clearly decline.”

    More BS from Dick.

    Jesus Christ, E-Man, if this tete a tete gets any longer I might need to cut these in two and take a half hour to rest my eyes! :lol: I’m on night shift and I shall outlast you!!!! :mad:

  46. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    With Hammas running the Paliswinians and that wacko president in Iran, this is just the point in time where the hammer strikes the anvil. We just happen to be the lucky SOB’s that have to deal with it.

    So far, there’s good news on the horizon on both of those situations. The EU and Russia is standing with us on axing aid to the PA until Hamas changes their charter. And having El Zippola to offer anyone they will have to change unless theyd like to have it out with the Al-Aqsa Brigades without some cash. Hamas’ election may have been a strange blessing in disguise.

    And as far as Iran, I was quite surprised to see Europe grow a pair and try to haul Iran’s ass to the the Security Council. And it looks like the Iranians are squirming about this. Things are taking a positive turn, I think.

  47. SoCalOilMan Comment by SoCalOilMan UNITED STATES

    And it looks like the Iranians are squirming about this. Things are taking a positive turn, I think.

    There ya go a positive perspective on this.

    Maybe…Possibly this administration had a looonng range plan on dealing with the arab states. I know it’s hard to fathom Republican’s particularly under W could actually have forseen this, and maybe even given it a little push to get it going now rather than later.

    Things are starting to settle down in Iraq and we can turn Afganistan over to the Useless Nitwits to keep them occupied. So now we are sitting on Iran’s border. Wouldn’t even have to refuel our planes.

    And I am aware that I have mentioned two contradictory strategies because I myself do not know what is right, but my point is let’s think about what is wrong and the best way to fix. I lean toward withdrawal at this point.

    Withdrawal just means we’ll be back there in a few years. This is not Viet Nam. We are now talking about MWD’s and nukes, not just ground forces and conventional warfare. The stakes are much higher and I don’t like the idea of my grandkid’s hidding under their school desk, like it will protect them from whatever weapon happens to go off like I had to do in the ’60’s.

  48. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

    You told me I was:

    “clearly ignorant of matters regarding Iraq, the Iraqi people, their culture, their history, their politics, their current state of affairs or their aspirations”

    which implies that YOU are in a position to tell me so. You are not the slickest debater in the world, but you are fairly slippery, I’ll give you that.

    [NOTE: Sorry, Moriarty. It wasn’t formatting correctly, so I had to tweak it a bit to make it a bit more readable and deliniate clearly who was saying what to whom. Feel free to bop me about the head & shoulders if I didn’t get it right. -Spats]

    All right.

    To someone with no knowledge of a topic, I can see how you could infer that any amount of knowledge might seem “encyclopedic.”

    Point ceded.

    Eat shit.

    Well, that knocks the pins out from under everything. I can see I’ve lost the debate right there. Well, played, Ron. (Extra points for style and spelling, even.)

  49. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    I’m not British, Moriarty, I can leave the “a” out. Go to Webster, nitpicker.

    Boy, you work so hard at bullshit debating tactics,especially ad hominems. But, I’m finished jacking around with you, and having some fun up top. You enjoy your last word, you hear?

  50. Unregistered Comment by Lady Heather GLOR UNITED STATES

    Dayum.
    :oogle: :shake:

  51. Unregistered Comment by Lady Heather GLOR UNITED STATES

    Also–

    Everytime there’s friendly fire, a troll smiles.

  52. Unregistered Comment by The Ref UNITED STATES

    The web is all about nitpicking, didn’t you know? Don’t be a :pill:.

    Oh yeah! :koolaid:

    Irregardless of the same tired arguments we have heard over and over and over and over regarding the legitimacy of invading Iraq, how the war is going, etc. let’s confine ourselves to the topic at hand, shall we?

    Namely, should some civilian weenie in a secret agency be allowed to circumvent his superiors, the whistleblower process because he felt that his opinions were paramount. Think on this a moment. Would it be better if he had told the ChiComms or Iran this information, rather than do the same thing through the offices of the ACLU? If you hold any kind of secret clearance you know that a secret a little bit leaked is like a woman who is a little bit pregnant.

    I do not fault the man for his convictions. I hope that government workers posess a moral code. I find fault with the way he is expressing his convictions. Leaking details of investigations of Jumpin Jihadis because you do not like interrogating his wife for two whole days is silly-and dangerous in a time of war.

    Just who the fuck do these so-called principled leakers think they are anyway? They do not work for an asbestos or cigarette company. They work for the government and need to STFU unless their opinions are solicited, or they get promoted.

    Part of the reason is because hte administration is loathe to go after these guys, and the media that massages them like KGB officers, is because they are afraid to get negative press. Fuck ‘em. Spying is spying and should not be tolerated.

  53. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

    Thanks, Spats.

    Everytime there’s friendly fire, a troll smiles.

    Waitaminnut…

    This guy is friendly?

    Has the Empire been secretly cloning an Army of Jbeez? Engaging in forbidden cB transgenic splicing? Doing Um Yeah deep conditioning on the Imperial Stormtroopers? Experimenting with h gas?

    If so, I heartily approve.

  54. Blackiswhite Comment by Blackiswhite UNITED STATES

    This guy is friendly?

    He’s a regular, and occasionally displays a conservative bent, and Spats hasn’t reset his password, so yeah, he’s friendly.

    :lol: :lol: :lol:
    *ducks and runs*

  55. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    Has the Empire been secretly cloning an Army of Jbeez? Engaging in forbidden cB transgenic splicing? Doing Um Yeah deep conditioning on the Imperial Stormtroopers?

    I know I shouldn’t be down here again, but…

    Of all the things you said…(sniff)…that (sniff)… hurt the most… :shake:

  56. Unregistered Comment by Elephant Man UNITED STATES

    I think we have veto on that as permanent member-I don’t think this would have happened.

    While maybe not officially, the sanctions would be ignored.

    Let’s just say it’s going a bit beyond isolated incidents now. How about I raise you a few Shi’a secret prisons and a few extraordinary renditions?

    WTF are you babbling about? Are you referring to those supposed secret prisons in Eastern Europe?

    Whoa! Excluded middle, 10 yards for muddying the debate! The majority of seats went to The United Iraqi Alliance, which is comprised of SCIRI and…someone else, both Islamic political parties. Allawi’s coalition got stomped.

    You really shouldn’t post while you’re getting “Clintonized” by “Kim Jong Ilette”.

    What does it matter who makes up the Iraqi government?

    I’m merely pointing out that the Iraqi govt. isn’t demanding we leave. You alluded that they were.

    Instead of showing proof to back up your original assertion, you babble something about “Allawi’s coalition” getting “stomped”.

    And you claim “I’m muddying the debate”. I don’t know whether to :shake: or :lol:

    Sometimes, at some point, you just gotta throw your hands up and go “fuck it”. No really, like I said, withdraw to Kuwait, provide air support to the government, training and special forces. Maybe lowering our silouhette will help. And I am aware that I have mentioned two contradictory strategies because I myself do not know what is right, but my point is let’s think about what is wrong and the best way to fix. I lean toward withdrawal at this point.

    Osama thanks you, Zarqawi thanks you, etc. etc.

    Nothing shows American resolve like “cutting and running” er “strategic redeployment”

    It’s the Murtha way…. :lol:

    Isn’t the Washington Times owned by Sun Myung-Moon or something?

    Who knows? I haven’t seen any calls to join the moonie cult in that paper so what difference does it make?

    Who owns a network or newspaper has little bearing on its “political bias”.

    That’s left to the editors. The owners don’t care unless the network or newspaper starts losing money hand over fist.

    Actually, it goes all the way back to the origins of neoconservative thinking as being…wait for it…a product of the the schism of the student activist LEFT!!! Who learned a totally different lesson from Vietnam.

    So that’s why today’s liberal asshats loathe the “neo-cons”.

    They’re “traitors” to the “movement”.

    And all this time I thought it was the latent anti-semitism that’s all too pervasive in the modern day moonbat.

    I’ll give you this one, but there is no appreciable decline in violence just yet, and damn, Dick, could there be a bigger cognitive dissonance between “last throes” and “four years from now?

    “The level of activity that we see today from a military standpoint, I think, will clearly decline.”

    More BS from Dick.

    I’m glad you “gave me this one”. (Though a bit grudgingly ;-))

    Jesus Christ, E-Man, if this tete a tete gets any longer I might need to cut these in two and take a half hour to rest my eyes!

    We know what you’re resting your eyes on you sly dog!

    Ron! I gwow weary of you deblating the yankee imperialists! Me want to Boom Boom long time!

    I’m on night shift and I shall outlast you!!!!

    Outlast me?! Never! :satansmoking:

  57. Unregistered Comment by Elephant Man UNITED STATES

    Things are taking a positive turn, I think.

    Indeed they are….

    Pressure Grows on al Zarqawi and al Qaeda in Iraq

  58. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    Outlast me?! Never!

    Whatever. You needed some sleep before continuing. Victory is mine.:guns:

    Korean babes are something else, you gotta admit…I walk down the streets of Taegu with my tongue hanging out.

    Who owns a network or newspaper has little bearing on its “political bias”.

    Oh, that depends on the paper. And the Wash Times is so far right biased anyway, it’d make good birdcage lining. I find this to be an intersting admission from you, nonetheless, now are you able to apply this to CNN?

    Nothing shows American resolve like “cutting and running” er “strategic redeployment”

    Does it really matter? Anyway, I didn’t say just drop the damn thing, “cut and run” is unfair. And neither did Murtha.

    I’m merely pointing out that the Iraqi govt. isn’t demanding we leave. You alluded that they were.

    Your strawman bulidng abilities are weak, grasshopper. You’re trying to stuff your own strawman that you made before. I didn’t allude shit about that, I said succinctly that Iraqis did not elect secular reformers, they elected Islamists in large part. You said I said they wanted us out.

    What does it matter who makes up the Iraqi government?

    Because it blows a big ass hole in the notion that Iraqis want secular democracy, the type we understand.

    You sick fuck.Think we can dance like this till 100 posts? ;-)

    Hear any good creme brulee jokes lately? I hear there’s a good one up a few threads… :lol: :lol:

  59. Unregistered Comment by Elephant Man UNITED STATES

    Whatever. You needed some sleep before continuing. Victory is mine.

    Whatever you say…… (pats little Ronny on the head) :whatever:

    Oh, that depends on the paper. And the Wash Times is so far right biased anyway, it’d make good birdcage lining. I find this to be an intersting admission from you, nonetheless, now are you able to apply this to CNN?

    Maybe not so much to CNN since they had to move to the “right” since FoxNews was cleaning their clocks in the “ratings”.

    The Washington Post on the other hand isn’t fit to use as toilet paper. It’s already covered with shit.

    Does it really matter? Anyway, I didn’t say just drop the damn thing, “cut and run” is unfair. And neither did Murtha.

    Bullshit. You can try to nuance it in typical liberral moonbat fashion by calling it strategic redeployment but it’s cutting and running.

    Nice try.

    Your strawman bulidng abilities are weak, grasshopper. You’re trying to stuff your own strawman that you made before

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black

    I said succinctly that Iraqis did not elect secular reformers, they elected Islamists in large part.

    Oh really? let me refresh your memory:

    “That fucking government? Created by us, of course it’s going to approve of us. Don’t give me any shit about “the people elected it”. We created the interim, laid out the hierarchy, picked the people, kept the cars out of the streets so people could vote, everything except carry them to the polls“.

    According to you “we created that government” and according to you, “of course its going to approve of us.”

    So your inane babbling about “secular democracy” is just that, babbling.

    Because it blows a big ass hole in the notion that Iraqis want secular democracy, the type we understand.

    Maybe it blows a “big ass hole” in your “notion”. There’s a Shiite majority in Iraq. Anyone with half a brain knew that the new government was going not going to be purely secular democracy.

    You sick fuck.Think we can dance like this till 100 posts?

    Sure. Though I think it’s going to devolve into “how many different ways can we say the same thing over and over” ad nauseum

    Hear any good creme brulee jokes lately? I hear there’s a good one up a few threads…

    I suppose you could consider it “good” if your 12 years old….. :smirk:

  60. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    The Washington Post on the other hand isn’t fit to use as toilet paper. It’s already covered with shit.

    This cracks me up, because the Post is considered by lefties to be a right wing tool. Witness the Howell and VandeHei flap. So, I can only conclude that both sides are wrong, reading their prejudices into the stories. I can link to the controversies if you havent heard of them, I’m pressed for time right now.

    Anyone with half a brain knew that the new government was going not going to be purely secular democracy.

    Boy, you sure are good at throwing Bush overboard when you want to win an argument…

    I suppose you could consider it “good” if your 12 years old

    Awww, someone’s grumpy..

  61. Unregistered Comment by Elephant Man UNITED STATES

    This cracks me up, because the Post is considered by lefties to be a right wing tool. Witness the Howell and VandeHei flap. So, I can only conclude that both sides are wrong, reading their prejudices into the stories. I can link to the controversies if you havent heard of them,

    They consider everthing to the right of Pravda and “Mother Jones” to be a “right-wing tool”

    I’m pressed for time right now.

    I can imagine.

    Helen Thomas and Kim Jong Il don’t look favorably on tardiness.

    Try to give Helen a little more “attention” this time.

    She got a bit “cranky” after the last “session”.

    Boy, you sure are good at throwing Bush overboard when you want to win an argument…

    How did I throw Bush under the bus? (This should be good :lol:)

    Awww, someone’s grumpy..

    Not really. I’m just saying that the joke was weak. It’s not like the accolades were pouring in from the other LC’s….:lol:

  62. Unregistered Comment by Ron

    They consider everthing to the right of Pravda and “Mother Jones” to be a “right-wing tool”

    And you consider the Washington Times to be objective journalism.Do you still have a point?

    How did I throw Bush under the bus?

    So you’re going to sit there and tell me that a secular democracy is not what Bush had intended, and that it’s not disappointing at all to watch society after society choose Islamist governors? I give the fuck up. You can backpedal all you want to make it sound like everything is going according to plan.

    Not really. I’m just saying that the joke was weak

    Better than

    Try to give Helen a little more “attention” this time.

    She got a bit “cranky” after the last “session”.

    It’s bad form to rip other people off(the owner of the “DVDs O’ Doom” in this case). Jeez, try and make a friendly jab…

    It’s not like the accolades were pouring in from the other LC’s

    Probably because they don’t know what to make of our little internecine squabble. Lord knows they don’t want to take the side of a moonbat ike m’self.

    Let’s just call the thing a draw, it was somewhat interesting.I bow to your superior bluster, cuz it’s goin’ sour.

  63. Unregistered Comment by Elephant Man UNITED STATES

    And you consider the Washington Times to be objective journalism.Do you still have a point?

    As opposed you claiming the Washington Post is objective. Talk about pimping the liberal moonbat :koolaid:

    So you’re going to sit there and tell me that a secular democracy is not what Bush had intended, and that it’s not disappointing at all to watch society after society choose Islamist governors?

    so now you’re a mind reader as well? When did Bush say that he intended for Iraq to have a secular democracy.

    You’re just using the “OMG they’rer all islamic” boogieman to build a strawman.

    I give the fuck up.

    Good idea. you’re not helping the dissuade the notion that you’ve turned into a drooling leftist asshat.

    You can backpedal all you want to make it sound like everything is going according to plan.

    And you can backpedal all you want from your assertion that Iraq is an unmitigated disaster with no hope or end in sight.

    It’s bad form to rip other people off(the owner of the “DVDs O’ Doom” in this case). Jeez, try and make a friendly jab…

    I didn’t rip BC off. He would have said something. Besides, apparently you didn’t read my response to your “friendly little jab” in the other thread.

    Probably because they don’t know what to make of our little internecine squabble.

    I think they know exactly “what to make of it”.

    They just didn’t think it was funny. *shrug*

    Let’s just call the thing a draw, it was somewhat interesting.

    That’s funny. Osama said something like that last week to the U.S.

    Between that and your insistance that we “cut and run” er strategically redeploy really has me wondering…..:lol:

    I bow to your superior bluster, cuz it’s goin’ sour.

    TRANSLATION: I’m going to Strategically redeploy rather than admit that I lost this arguement.

    Getting a little “grumpy” are we? :lol: :finger: