LC & IB Kit asks some very uncomfortable questions in this post, a post sure to raise some hackles and cause quite a bit of hand-wringing and furor.

Go read it all. We aren’t going anywhere. We’ll still be here when you get back.

Back again? Alright then.

Have we become too soft, too desperate in our desire to sanitize the war to actually, you know, WIN it? Have we become suicidal in our demand that our side never get their hands dirty in a war against an enemy so deranged, so completely devoid of humanity that we have never encountered anything like it?

Kit has a point. Kit has quite a few of them, as a matter of fact, and the questions she raises are questions that we need to ask ourselves, no matter how uncomfortable they make us. Because if we don’t, if we don’t settle once and for all the question whether we’re in this war to win, knowing full well that winning it can’t be done without icky stuff happening along the way, if we don’t do that and instead continue to insist that our troops commit suicide by figthing a war that we won’t allow them to FIGHT, then we really ought to grow up and decide that we don’t have the stomach for war anymore.

War is Hell. That’s why we shouldn’t engage in one lightly. That’s also why we should fight it uncompromisingly and to the fullest if we DO decide to engage, because it’ll end it and its attendant hellishness much sooner if we do.

So I have to ask my own self as well, considering my earlier thoughts on Haditha: Have I become too soft, too unrealistic in what I demand of those fine soldiers risking their asses while I sit safely at home, snug under the blanket of safety that they’re paying for with their blood?

I’d love to answer “no” quite categorically, but I’m not sure that I can.

How can our troops be expected to be victorious in battle against an enemy that routinely uses women and children as shields if we castigate and punish them every time one of the involuntary shields get hurt? Are we really demanding that our troops let themselves be slaughtered rather than risk the life of one single innocent?

If so, then we’ve completely forgotten everything that history has ever taught us about war.

We need to make a decision to either shit or get the fuck off the pot and, if the former, to realize and accept that it’s going to get ugly before it’s over.

Does that mean that we should not care when civilians get caught in the crossfire and ugly things happen as a result?

Of course not. That would be insane to suggest. We do care, we should care, we must care, but that doesn’t mean that we have to refuse to let our soldiers do the job we sent them to do, just to prove how much we care.

We have, as a nation, decided to send some of the finest, most well-equipped and thoroughly trained killing machines into harm’s way on our behalf.

We have no right to act all self-righteous when ugly things happen as a result.

Those who would send our troops into battle with both arms tied behind their backs ought to put on a uniform and go relieve them instead of posturing and preening from their armchairs.

If you have a “clean” and “ethical” way of winning a war against monsters, defeating the most inhuman scum that we ever fought without getting your hands bloody then, by all means, go show the rest of us how it’s done. It’d be very educational, since it hasn’t been done in all of human history.

Not once.

As to myself, I’ll take Kit’s words to heart and start applying them to my judgment of how the war is fought and, just as importantly, how it should and must be fought, at least if we want to win.

And if we don’t want to win, then let’s at least be honest and bring the boys home.

Me, I’m all in favor of winning.

119 Responses to “Haditha, Revisited”
  1. juandos Comment by juandos UNITED STATES

    Well maybe just maybe something like the following can be applied to the Haditha case: A veteran who lost both arms in the war in Iraq is suing filmmaker Michael Moore for $85 million, alleging that Moore used snippets of a television interview without his permission to falsely portray him as anti-war in “Fahrenheit 9/11.”

    Couldn’t this case if successful be used as future basis for some the asinine rantings made in public by the likes of Murtha, Kerry, Reid, Durbin, et al?

    After all these clowns won’t be protected by the present status forever…

    Just asking…

  2. LCJackboot Comment by LCJackboot UNITED STATES

    Dead Nuts- X-Ring- Spot On

    Lookup: Dresden WWII, Feb 13-15, 1945

    First!!!!

  3. juandos Comment by juandos UNITED STATES

    First!!!!

    Yeah? First what?…:lol:

  4. Unregistered Comment by LC Wes, Imperial Mohel UNITED STATES

    Among the things that should be considered when judging whether or not these Marines committed a war crime is that many of Haditha’s “insurgents” apparently were women and children. Michelle Malkin reproduced part of an television interview with Marine Lance Corporal James Crossen, who was in the convoy that was ambushed that day in Haditha. Crossen was himself gravely wounded by the same IED that took the life of LCPL Miguel Terrazas, in whose name the alleged massacre subsequently took place as an act of vengeance.

    While Crossen himself suspects that some atrocities took place that day - he was unconscious and being medevaced while the alleged war crimes were taking place - he had the following to say about the terrorist stronghold of Haditha, Iraq:

    Crossan: We used to go out on patrols and have the little kids count the patrols and all that stuff and we couldn’t really do anything except grab them and throw them inside their houses…

    KING 5 TV interviewer: Why would you do that? Because you were afraid that the kids were scouting for the insurgents or you thought they were in danger?

    Crossan: There are little kids that scout for ‘em. ‘Cuz later that day we, along the main road there, we cut behind a few buildings and the next patrol that went out got hit. And that little kid that was just there and there was people all around. But the day that I got hit they were planning a major attack and it got spoiled, so, and there was like 20 some people, insurgents, that were gonna attack the cop that day.

    Then we got hit by an IED and the cops sent out a squad of Marines, and the insurgents just started attacking then, just right off the bat and we just foiled it. We were just driving back from the cop. I remember taking a left and then a right, and then remember waking up from the ground for a split second. And then waking up in the helicopter and then finally knew what happened in the hospital.

    KING 5: So after you were injured, also tell me, you lost one of your guys. What can you tell me about him?

    Crossan: We lost Lance Col. Miguel Terrazas. He was a good guy. He was from El Paso, Texas. And he was my point man. He was pretty much the guy I went to if I needed anything.

    KING 5: Was he driving the Humvee at the time?

    Crossan: Yes he was.

    KING 5. And so you were sitting next to me?

    Crossan: Yes, I was in the passenger side. I know in my heart if I was there, I possibly could have stopped what happened, so. ‘Cuz I know that the other team leaders and even staff sergeants…they both, they all kinda, listened to me and I just gave ‘em ideas and all that stuff. Things just went smoother. But I just don’t know.

    KING 5: How do you feel about the villagers involved? Um, you know, do you have emotion as you think about them or not really?

    Crossan: No. Because half of them were bad guys. You just never know, so. It really didn’t cross my mind.

    KING 5: There are reports of, you know, little children being killed and women being killed.

    Crossan: Little kids I can see being bad and even some of the women, but just over there, you just can’t tell who the bad guy was…

  5. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    I am going to have to disagree on this one.

    These Marines weren’t fighting Iwo Jima, Hamburger Hill, or any other massive firefight. This was a civilian population center. It is like comparing apples and well, ravioli.

    “Major Combat operations in Iraq are over”. This would have relegated our forces over there to a peace-keeping mission, with the emphasis on protecting the civilian population, not shoot at anything that moves.

    No matter how much lipstick you try to put on this, no matter how someone tries to justify this as “war is hell”, IF the allegations are true (and it is STILL way too early to tell — I will wait for the official report to come out) then in at least a few of the reports, there was not only a case for murder, but also one to cover it up.

    I am in no way painting an entire branch of service, or our entire military personnel with the broad brush here. From all accounts so far, this was an isolated incident perpetrated by a small handful of Marines (and a Sailor) — and it should be treated as such.

    Personally, I would much rather wait until the official report come out before we start backfilling, justifying, pointing fingers, proclaiming gloom and doom, etc. Everything up to the release of the official report is nothing more than speculation and mental masturbation.

  6. sig94 Comment by sig94 UNITED STATES

    There is nothing new about killing children in war, ask any WWII vet, like my father-in-law, who had to deal with Hitler Youth snipers. In his words, they were worse then the SS. These kids were completely brainwashed, amoral and vicious.
    They refused to surrender.
    Our GI’s killed them.
    And there were no regrets.

  7. NCLivingBrit Comment by NCLivingBrit UNITED STATES

    Well ignoring the post counting, I have to say the author of that article makes a damn fine point.

    We do expect an inhuman amount of forebearance by our military personnel in this and almost every war.

    I’ve said it here before, we really don’t (well at least us overweight armchair generals anyway, those who served and do serve probably do) what it’s like to live and work and fight for and among people who not only want us, but our entire culture and way of life dead.

    And while I can’t approve of killing civilians, I am guilty of just what that article says: Wanting clean, tidy war.

    Which is a unrealistic, at best and selfish at worst. So yes, even if they did kill unprovoked….. I suspect that only means unprovoked -that- day. Because I’ll bet dollars to dinars that the day before people who look and sound and act very much like the deceased Iraqi’s were handling weapons, laying traps and scheming to kill our troops that day and the day before and surely the day after.

    -Our- troops. And we should remember that, for every man or woman killed in -our- name, we ratchet the tension around these self-sacrificing folks a little tighter, give -them- a little more burden to bear without succumbing to the very human frailties they have already put aside en masse to keep us from the wolf at the door.

    I’m not a man for prayer, my faith is long gone….. But just in case someone can hear me I’ll say a prayer in the hope that -our- warriors find themselves with no reason to feel as these people must have to do what they did.

  8. Unregistered Comment by LC Wes, Imperial Mohel UNITED STATES

    One more thing: If you’ve read any history, you’ve probably come across many accounts of lawless or totalitarian societies - I would say that most of the Islamic world qualifies as both, at this point - you’ve come across accounts of indoctrinated children (and women, for that matter) being used as soldiers, assassins and terrorists. Both the Nazis and Soviets did so during the Second World War, and many of the most vicious Nazi “Werewolf” diehards in the immediate postwar era were kids. You saw the same thing in Asia with the vanguard of Mao’s “Great Leap Forward (many of them were kids), the Vietcong, and the Khmer Rouge (most of them were kids).

    Or the infamous child soldiers of various recent and current African civil wars.

    Or the ongoing examples of “Palestinian child abuse” displayed at Little Green Footballs and elsewhere, featuring heavily-armed Arab grade schoolers being indoctrinated in anti-Western and anti-Jew hatred.

    Sorry, but it doesn’t automatically follow that our troops are guilty of committing war crimes, even if, regrettably, women and children were killed…particularly since our enemies make a point of hiding among civilians when they launch their attacks. And recruiting women and kids to carry them out.

    And because our enemies - foreign and domestic - are always so quick to label our troops babykillers and war criminals, without any evidence whatsoever.

    If some Marines at Haditha did in fact slaughter innocent women and kids, then I’ll be the first to applaud their hanging. I’d just like to get all the facts in before we start the lynching…and find out whether, in fact, a lynching is called for.

  9. juandos Comment by juandos UNITED STATES

    Sorry DJ, I’m just going to have to plain disagree with your statement (#5): “These Marines weren’t fighting Iwo Jima, Hamburger Hill, or any other massive firefight. This was a civilian population center.“…

    DJ, EVERY fire fight is just like those places you mentioned…

    It does NOT matter what elected politico says what about a situation, the fact is when the feces hits the fan all that hot air by Bush or anyone else for that matter means less than nothing…

    Here’s another story the so called news media and other seditious swine will try to make hay out of: U.S. troops kill pregnant woman in Iraq

    U.S. forces killed two Iraqi women — one of them about to give birth — when the troops shot at a car that failed to stop at an observation post in a city north of Baghdad, Iraqi officials and relatives said Wednesday. Nabiha Nisaif Jassim, 35, was being raced to the maternity hospital in Samarra by her brother when the shooting occurred Tuesday

    Sad! Hell yes its sad!

    Should the US forces have made an exception here even though they had no idea of what the situation in the car was?

    No! Hell no! No damned way!

    Someone else already pointed out a well known fact, terrorist towel heads have no problem using children or anything else in their collective attempt to collect on the 72 white raisins

  10. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    Again, I am going to reserve any further comments on this story until I read the official report. I think that is only fair, don’t you?

  11. juandos Comment by juandos UNITED STATES

    DJ rightous says: “ think that is only fair, don’t you?

    Yes sir, most definitely…

    None the less, I don’t agree with the way this war is being directed from the White House…

    Personally as far as I’m concerned, every upright person in that country should be a target of opportunity but then again that’s how all wars are won as history has proven time and again…

  12. Unregistered Pingback by Flopping Aces » Blog Archive » The MSM Bias & Haditha UNITED STATES

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  13. Princess Natasha Comment by Princess Natasha UNITED STATES

    For the 100,000,000,000th time: the blood of the innocents is not on the hands of the Marines, it is on the hands of cowardly shitbag terrorists hiding behind these innocents, without any regard for their lives.
    That is all.

  14. Unregistered Comment by charles68 UNITED STATES

    The author has a point that we have become far too detached from the reality of conflict, and what it takes to win. It requires total commitment. The enemy has it. If you are not a soldier or in a military family, this war doesn’t impact your life beyond inconvenient news spots. I support the PResident, but I believe he has failed in this respect. If this war was important enough to start, it is important enough to win. To win we must be committed.

    But the author’s main point is wrong. Atrocities are committed by all sides in all conflicts. That does not mean atrocities should be considered acceptable behavior. Its one thing if these guys thought they were under threat, and in the heat of battle they lobbed grenades into the houses that they stormed with guns blazing. If this is what happened, then its not a massacre and its not an atrocity. If innocents were killed, we can call it an unfortunate tragedy.

    I think one of those happened just today. Some pregnant lady ran a checkpoint and was killed along with her friend. This is a tragedy.

    If on the other hand, the killings took place over several hours, and bound captive women and children were executed at point blank range, then that is murder. I find it hard to believe really.

    (I think there probably are a lot of real bad guys we are detaining that should be given a double tap, and that we are fighting this war with our pinky fingers, but that is still no excuse for murdering infants).

    I am anxious to find out what really happened.

  15. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    These Marines weren’t fighting Iwo Jima, Hamburger Hill, or any other massive firefight. This was a civilian population center. It is like comparing apples and well, ravioli.

    DJ,

    I’ll forward your comments to my wife’s grandfather. He served in the USMC. He landed at Tarawa and, when he recovered from his wounds, Okinawa.

    I’ll point out that in Okinawa in the latter case 70,000 Japanese troops were killed. Civilian dead were estimated at between 62,000 and 150,000 of the island’s total population of 460,000.

    His reply should prove interesting. I wonder what he’ll think of your comparison.

  16. LC Delftsman3 Comment by LC Delftsman3 UNITED STATES

    This was a civilian population center. It is like comparing apples and well, ravioli.

    DJ, I think you’re wrong in that…the whole damned town is a center of operations for the Jihadis, and believe me, I know from experience, both military and civilian that a 12 yo can and WILL kill you just as dead, and I have the scars to prove it.

    I want to see the results of the investigation before I will tinge any of these men with the slightest guilt.

  17. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    Okay, I’ll bite — but just to point out the STARK differences:

    Here is a Google News Search of the term “planted an AK-47“. Herein lies the issue.

    You are focusing on an idea that this was a “firefight”, because the original version said it was. The allegations being made now say that there was no firefight, and that the Marine unit simply went from house-to-house shooting anyone they could find.

    IF this is true, would you consider that the “fog of war”? How does this in any way compare to the heroic battles your wife’s grandfather and all those others went through?

    But the author’s main point is wrong. Atrocities are committed by all sides in all conflicts. That does not mean atrocities should be considered acceptable behavior. Its one thing if these guys thought they were under threat, and in the heat of battle they lobbed grenades into the houses that they stormed with guns blazing. If this is what happened, then its not a massacre and its not an atrocity. If innocents were killed, we can call it an unfortunate tragedy.

    I couldn’t agree with this assessment more. And like this following statement:

    I am anxious to find out what really happened. [emphasis mine]

    This is where all of the speculation should be held until we really do find out what happened.

    I want to see the results of the investigation before I will tinge any of these men with the slightest guilt.

    I am not assigning guilt to anyone. Notice I have been VERY careful to state IF these allegations are true. The author already has assumed that they are.

  18. L.C. Rowane Comment by L.C. Rowane UNITED STATES

    Comment by Princess Natasha
    For the 100,000,000,000th time: the blood of the innocents is not on the hands of the Marines, it is on the hands of cowardly shitbag terrorists hiding behind these innocents, without any regard for their lives.
    That is all.

    WooHoo! way to put it in a nutshell.

    I sure as hell won’t be playing mutha with the Marines, even if there IS evidence that could show they killed women and children who is to say that it could be helped?

    I have written the President about his quote in USA Today and on Fox News and asked him when these Marnes were tried. After all Murtha has called them murderers in public and even BuSHITHEAD didn’t bother with the of-used-unjustly “allegedly”. They’ll use this when talking about a murdering bastard caught with a dead child in his car and blood all ovr him but not about the troops fighting for the freedom of America…no the whole friggin world.

    If I thought the illegal aliens fracas had pissed me off I was in for a hell of a surprize when I saw this crap this afternoon.

    When in Hell are these left-wing sheep going to learn that in war there is a thing called “Collateal Damage”? This is when unintentional personell are killed. War must be fought brutally so that people don’t come to like it too much.

    I’ll bet that the first tool built wa a weapon which shows that violence is an inate characteristic, not some minor abberation. Man is born violent and throughout most of history has died violent deaths.

    How can America hold its head high if every time soe piddly little thing happens a pathetic EX-Marine goes in front of the mediots’ cameras and accused them of attrocites.

    WHEN can we hold these traitors accountable for their actions????????

    Duty, Honor, Country
    (in THAT order)
    Rowane

  19. L.C. Rowane Comment by L.C. Rowane UNITED STATES

    “American troops must take the high road! We must not torture! We must not strike the enemy preemptively! We must only react to them if fired upon!”

    Doesn’t this sound more like a policeman?

  20. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    IF this is true, would you consider that the “fog of war”? How does this in any way compare to the heroic battles your wife’s grandfather and all those others went through?

    Don’t know, I wasn’t there. But I will state this without hesitation: Much of what went on in Okinawa was not “heroic” by any rational standard. It was the simple yet terrible task of killing enemy soldiers - and often civilian men, women and children. The principles of winning battles, particularly that of ruthlessness remain immutable by definition.

    In his biography, Paul Tibbits (the commander of the 509th Composite Group and the Enola Gay,) remarked on the practice of firebombing civilian population centers, a tactic he claimed to have recommended to General LeMay and that LeMay ultimately adopted for widespread use. He wrote that while it is horrific to reduce entire cities and their populations to ashes, in ashes they must lie as the price of defeating fascism.

    What is curious in this light is the manner in which the media regards, primarily through allegation, the conduct of today’s combatants. We, the public, are no better for our indugence in discussion, debate and endless hand-wringing, usually in advance of verifiable facts.

    It may be convincingly argued that we have already lost the war against militant Islam, because we no longer possess the aggressiveness, the decisiveness and the ruthlessness required to win it.

  21. Unregistered Comment by Useless UNITED STATES

    Just as the liberals are convinced that when the jihadis start lighting off nukes in the US, they’ll only target the eviel members of teh VRWC, they expect that our troops will also be able to ONLY target the bad men. I don’t see a doubl standard here. Just the typical application of what libs call “logic” and what the rest of us call stupidity.

    Let’s wait for the investigation, shall we?

  22. Emperor Darth Misha I Comment by Emperor Darth Misha I UNITED STATES

    It may be convincingly argued that we have already lost the war against militant Islam, because we no longer possess the aggressiveness, the decisiveness and the ruthlessness required to win it.

    I’m afraid that you’re right, my friend. Deadly afraid, because it’ll be the end of us.

    When we start evaluating the horrors of war through the prism of peace, we’re already far down the slope to defeat.

    War is not to be glorified, because it is truly Hell, but it’s not subject to the rules of peace either. You cannot fight a war that way and hope to win.

    If I’m wrong, then please, somebody, point me to a war that was won that way.

    When I was taught the trade of war, and mind you that was a time of relative peace, at least in my corner of the world, we were taught that the only thing that mattered was winning. That our trade was a brutal, dirty, horrid one, but that we were to part with our civilian notions of “fair” and focus on the objective.

    I don’t remember a five point briefing that included “make sure that no innocents are hurt, no matter what the circumstances.”

    Soldiers are killing machines, that’s their job. They do that, they sacrifice part of themselves in order to do what has to be done, in order to do a job for all of the rest of us so that we won’t have to do it in our own living room.

    They don’t merely risk their lives, they risk staining their immortal souls and they wave a fond goodbye to the comforts of being a civilian and having a choice. They willingly stare down the horrors of Hell and, in order to do so and survive, they must forever learn to know and deal with The Machine, that dark, primeval corner of our soul that we all would love to keep suppressed.

    We have no right to judge their actions from our safe, air-conditioned rooms. We have no right to demand that they face down that and still adhere to all of the conventions of civilized, mall-bound society. We have no right to ask them to face THAT and still criticize them for doing what they have to do.

    Do we have the right, in light of the enormous sacrifice that they’re already making, to demand that they expose themselves to even more danger by acting according to the rules of peaceful, civilized society, a society where you DON’T have to walk in the shadow of imminent and gruesome death every second of the day?

    I think not.

  23. Trooper THX1138 Comment by Trooper THX1138 UNITED STATES

    As I had planned on being an officer in the US Army, I have to agree with both Misha and the blogger. We read articles about kids as young as 6 shooting classmates, and this is in a fairly civilized country! And we somehow expect that children who get taught that non-muslims must either be converted, subdued, or killed, aren’t gonna shoot at our soldiers? Let’s get real, here. No two ways about it, it’s a damn shame and a waste to have to do it, but if a kid is working for a terrorist, or he picks up a gun and points it at a soldier, that kid’s life expectancy just dropped by a whole hell of a lot. The Marines deserve a hell of a lot better than to be stabbed in the back first by the people they’re trying to help, then by their own countrymen.

  24. Unregistered Comment by Infidel River Rat HONG KONG

    The vast majority of this shittyassed mess is the doing of the shittyassed jellyfish-spined news media!! I was here in Kabul the day the fucking riots from that wreck happened. My platoon was in garrison on rapid-response duty, and as soon as the word reached us as to what was going on, we were ready to go to anty situation and do our job. Waiting in theplace we were, one of our platoon went online with his laptop, and had the AP story on yahoo, not even a half hour after we got the brief! These shittyassed newsmaggots are here and see the multitude of successes we’re having here, and they can’t get it on satellite fast enough when something goes wrong! How about National Lynch a Reporter Week, everyone? They’re NO different from the maggots that threw trash on vet’s graves on Memorial Day weekend, or the slimyasses that call us vets babykillers! God help the first moonbat that crosses my path stateside, because I’ll break its fuckin’ neck, and enjoy it! Now you can once again see why the unwritten cardinal among us GI’s is”NEVER TRUST A NEWSMAGGOT!!)

  25. juandos Comment by juandos UNITED STATES

    Charles68 (#14) makes some very valid points: “Atrocities are committed by all sides in all conflicts. That does not mean atrocities should be considered acceptable behavior“…

    Define atrocity please…

    Personally I define atrocity as putting politically correct encumbrances on our armed forces in the middle of a war on terrorists and countries that support terrorism… But hey! That’s just me…;)

  26. juandos Comment by juandos UNITED STATES

    Well isn’t this interesting?!?!

    Gateway Pundit has the following: John Murtha… Here is Your Cold Blooded Killer!

    Ahmed Hussein Dabash Samir al-Batawi

    Al-Batawi, who was arrested in Iraq on monday, has confessed to “hundreds of beheadings“… “hundreds of beheadings!”

  27. juandos Comment by juandos UNITED STATES

    BTW if you are tired of what passes for news by the usual suspects (the Haditha story being the latest load of spun fecal matter) then consider perusing the following on occassion: Black Anthem Military News

  28. Unregistered Comment by Infidel River Rat HONG KONG

    Thanks for the link, Juandos, I needed that. Can someone ask the MSM shitballs who have assumed “guilty until proven innocent, and even then we won’t accept it.” about ANY serviceman over here. I Tend to get depressed anymore when I even begin to perouse any mainstream news source. The damned Stars and Stripes over here has even printed editorials from Cindy fuckin’ Sheehan! NEVER trust the MSM!!!

  29. Unregistered Comment by charles68 UNITED STATES

    You guys keep conflating two different things.

    1. Intentionally killing unarmed civilians who pose no threat; and

    2. Unintentional deaths of civilians in a combat zone.

    Sure kids can shoot guns. But that still doesn’t mean that in a non-combat situation where there is no direct threat, you can simply line up kids and shoot them.

    I grant a very wide latitude to soldiers in combat when it comes to responding to perceived threats. By that I mean #2 above encompasses a VERY wide circle of possible circumstances. But there are situations outside that circle. In those situations you do not line up women and infants and blow their brains out.

    The investigation will hopefully reveal the context and better define the perceived threat.

    In this 24/7 hyper media environment we all get quite jaded by having to watch terrible news coverage, and the instinct to stand by the troops no matter what is noble and usually correct. But you know what they say about a stopped watch being right sometimes…

    If they are guilty, and it comes to sentencing, I would even go so far as considering the conditions over there as highly mitigating circumstances. These young men go through hell. ‘Temporary insanity’ - or something along those lines, ought to play into this. Where do you draw the line of individual responsibility and highly trained young men cracking under circumstances that most people can’t even begin to fathom???

    Unfortunately for the soldiers, if they are guilty, then the military will have to make an example of them.

  30. Unregistered Comment by The Almighty Mattski UNITED STATES

    I don’t give a rat’s ass whether my Marines killed women and children; if they were taking fire, they SHOULD return it! How many Americans were killed by grenades hurled by kids in Viet Nam? By Panzerfausts fired by Hitlerjugend? A child can drop a man just as quickly as anyone else, in some cases even quicker.

    The question here is simple: did the Marines kill those in Haditha in error, or out of a sense of vengeance? Chances are, it was in error (and I’ll bet my next paycheck against a fucking jelly-donut that the investigation will bear me out). Having been a Jarhead myself, I know the psyche of our Marines, and I am FULLY CONFIDENT that they did not attack those people with murderous desire, but simply made a bad call. They’re human, they make mistakes. In warfare, however, mistakes often cost lives; it’s an unfortunate result.

    I firmly believe that there was no way in hell that those Marines went in there specifically to kill the first people they came across. In Vietnam I can believe that those sorts of things COULD HAVE happened, mainly because so many of our troops were draftees who did not enter the military with the same level of duty, responsibility, and commitment that our troops enter today, ESPECIALLY MY MARINES. But to stand there and say the Marines willingly and intentionally killed innocent people (John Fucking Bastard Shithole Murtha)? BULLSHIT!

    Wait for the resulting report of the investigation. If my Marines acted irresponsibly and with malice, hang them for the criminals they are, because there is no room for that shit in my Marine Corps. BUT, if my Marines merely made a bad call, if they made a genuine mistake in the heat of battle, exonerate them and tell the media and anyone thinking likewise that they can shove it up their collective asses; shove it so far, in fact, that they can taste it. Let those mealy fucks walk a patrol and see whether they can do as well.

    Semper Fi,
    Mattski

  31. Unregistered Comment by Clarion UNITED STATES

    These Marines weren’t fighting Iwo Jima, Hamburger Hill, or any other massive firefight. This was a civilian population center. It is like comparing apples and well, ravioli.

    I dunno, DJ, in Iraq where the terrorists hide behind civilians, ANY location is a location of a potential firefight. Let’s face it, these assholes do not follow the Geneva Convention. If they won’t follow it, technically we don’t have to.

  32. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    I dunno, DJ, in Iraq where the terrorists hide behind civilians, ANY location is a location of a potential firefight.

    Go back and read charles68 @ #29

    You guys keep conflating two different things.

    1. Intentionally killing unarmed civilians who pose no threat; and

    2. Unintentional deaths of civilians in a combat zone.

    Sure kids can shoot guns. But that still doesn’t mean that in a non-combat situation where there is no direct threat, you can simply line up kids and shoot them.

    I think he pretty much boiled it down. Now we NEED to wait until the official FACTS are in before ANYONE passes judgment.

    Let’s face it, these assholes do not follow the Geneva Convention. If they won’t follow it, technically we don’t have to.

    Because they don’t, we won’t? As the most powerful and professional military in history, we choose to go to the lowest common denominator?

    Besides, who decided that the Geneva Conventions were “quaint” first?

    Aren’t we supposed to be setting the example over there? Our military is the most awesome and professional in the world, but they are also our ambassadors.

    I am positive that 99.999 percent of what our military does over there is great and wonderful. Unfortunately, all of that gets overshadowed by the one or two isolated incidents that are bad. Forget what passes for “outrage” in this country and in the media. What matters is how the average Iraqi civilian views these types of things before they decide to join forces with the insurgency. It isn’t the good things that make recruitment posters, it is always the bad things.

  33. Unregistered Comment by ichpokhudezh UNITED STATES

    Uh-huh. While I hate to be in the ‘told you so’ camp but this is what happens when you don’t know who are you fighting with.

    Regardless of whether Marines were right, partially right or wrong completely about these alleged civilians chalk up another point or two for US-haters around the globe.

  34. Unregistered Comment by Tennessee Budd UNITED STATES

    Pithy & well-reasoned anti-troll response—as is usual, Majesty. Thanks for the link & for the tongue(keyboard?)-lashing.

  35. Princess Natasha Comment by Princess Natasha UNITED STATES

    Interesting how leftard piss-drinkers get their granny-bloomers in a bunch about the “rights” of murderous swine contained in Gitmo, yet completely ignore the presumption of innocence when it comes to these Marines. As to America-haters around the world, and what they “think”—in the words of the leftard darling Kos-Kunt: screw ‘em.

  36. Radical Redneck Comment by Radical Redneck UNITED STATES

    Nat,

    You’re so right. Over here there’s a perpetually enraged Dutch claiming that this will end the US and the EU will take over the world.
    It’s pretty funny actually. DK has got into it too.

  37. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    Good Gawd, Radical!

    You’re still sparring with that moron?

    Really now, it’s not nice to treat the mentally-challenged like that…

    ;-)

  38. LC Ranger 6 Comment by LC Ranger 6 UNITED STATES

    I for one don’t really care whether these Marines killed women and children or not.

    I care that these Marines volunteered to put their lives on the line to protect me.

    I care that these Marines get up everyday to do a job that the majority of people in this country can’t or won’t do.

    I care that they have left family and friends to go to a God forsaken place and fight animals that will shoot a baby and stuff its body with explosives so that when one of ours picks it up the baby explodes.

    I care that they know that if they are captured they will most likely be tortured and have their head sawed off with a rusty machete and they STILL volunteer to protect me.

    What I don’t care about is whether some “innocents” get killed because the animals they are fighting use innocents as shields.

    These “innocents” helped create these animals. It’s their backyard. We are a tool to help them fix their toilet. We are not the shit that floats in it.

    I’m sorry that innocents get killed in war, but we didn’t create the situations that cause it.

    There are no innocents in Iraq or Afghanistan until they are civilized countries ruling peacefully and our troops come home.

    There are enemy combatants and collateral damage. I really don’t care what the investigation of this incident uncovers. Every single one of those Marines deserves a medal just for being there.

    Period.

    If these Marines operated outside of their SOP they should be sent home. Period.

    I would still buy any one of them a beer and thank them. And anyone that hasn’t faced what they are still facing today can just SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!

  39. jaybear Comment by jaybear UNITED STATES

    Princess Natasha said:

    For the 100,000,000,000th time: the blood of the innocents is not on the hands of the Marines, it is on the hands of cowardly shitbag terrorists hiding behind these innocents, without any regard for their lives.
    That is all.

    You forgot one party that is also responsible for the continuing slaughter of innocents over there, and I quote Infidel River Rat: the shittyassed jellyfish-spined news media….With their continuing reporting of the quagmire, and the disheartened military, and “strength and committment of the insurgency“, they give our enemies…nay civilization’s enemies…a huge shot of confidence and encouragement. But what really sickens me about the degree of their propaganda is how selective they are about what they want to disseminate to the public/sheep. Abu Graibh? we had weeks of stories, Koran abuse? weeks of stories, Cindy Shitcan?, still a story….Gold Star Mothers?, Medal winners? 14 of 18 Iraqi provinces functioning and peaceful?…..I hear nothing but crickets. Now my memory isn’t what it used to be, but I don’t recall any similar outrage about the killing of innocents when the branch davidian women and children went up in flames either, do you?

    Simply put y’all, we are losing this war. We aren’t losing it in the field, guys like IRR are too committed and too good at what they do for that to happen. It’s the lying/traitorous press and their masters, the democrat party who are ensuring defeat in this conflict. They encourage our beastly enemy, they undermine the effort here at home, and I don’t know why they do it…I really don’t. It’s discouraging that they would ignore the lessons of history, specifically the Christian defeats in the Crusades and what happened after that in Outremer and Spain and Southern France and Jerusalem and Antioch. Read your history, the muslims have never stopped the war against the infidel Crusaders, they’re still fighting it 1000 years later….are you really that blind? or that stupid?

    to all of the liberals and America haters out there. Whether you like it or not, we MUST win this one. If you won’t damper your hatred enough to join civilization in this Crusade, then get the hell out of the way….come groveling back after this war is won. But for now, just shut up and leave us alone so our military and our patriots can save your way of life for you.

  40. Unregistered Trackback by Right Truth UNITED STATES

    Haditha and what the world is saying…

    This is my first post on Haditha. I thought I might actually wait for the facts to come out before expressing an opinion, but it doesn’t seem that anyone else feels the need for facts. That is very unfortunate. If…

  41. Radical Redneck Comment by Radical Redneck UNITED STATES

    Really now, it’s not nice to treat the mentally-challenged like that…

    My mom always said that. But, then again, she never was much fun. ;-)

  42. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    Radical,

    An afterthought. You might find these articles interesting:

    http://denbeste.nu/external/Zinmeister01.html

    http://denbeste.nu/external/Harris02.html

  43. Radical Redneck Comment by Radical Redneck UNITED STATES

    Dr H,

    Good articles. I subscribe to AE but started after these.

    Zinsmeister is a great writer. He’s now with the administration right?

  44. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

    The Geneva Conventions apply to ALL MILITARY ACTIONS! Just because they are not following them doesn’t mean we can’t! That’s one of the things that make us the good guys. Also, the military has a thing called LOAC, Law of Armed Conflict. We all follow it, it defines what we can and can’t do, and has a lot to do with the Geneva Conventions. As soon as somebody picks up a weapon and points it at me or my buddy, he is a valid military target, and I am authorized to use minimum force necesary to save my buddy or myself. Minimum force necesary is sometimes deadly force! If using less than deadly force on said person would put me in mortal danger or give him a chance to kill my buddy or buddies, then I am totally within the law to take that person out. ANY CIVILIAN THAT USES OR ATTEMPTS TO USE A DEADLY WEAPON ON A UNIFORMED U.S. MILITARY PERSON BECOMES A LAWFUL COMBATANT. ANY!

  45. Beth* A. Comment by Beth* A. UNITED STATES

    Some of the most powerful comments I’ve ever had the privilege to read are in this thread. I know I’m biased; even changed jobs to have a chance to work at the Marine base nearby; but I will support these guys FOREVER because friends who come back, come back missing a piece of themselves - and we have the gall to judge them for what we can barely stand to imagine????

    These men will hold accountable themselves anyone who dishonors the Corps. They don’t require us to do that for them. It does place a stain in their souls, as Misha wrote, from what they have to see and do and bloody well endure. The Marines I’ve met all seem to hold themselves to insanely unmeetable standards. Anybody who hasn’t seen that cost in their eyes, has no idea AT ALL what the hell they are talking about, or what damage they do to these men who defend us with their own bodies and blood, and bones and sinew, who throw everything they are into the fights they undertake.

    It is very surreal to walk into a store on Base, with all these guys in DCU’s and dust-colored suede boots moving up and down the aisle, shopping basket in hand and sometimes child or SU as well, buying groceries and whatever else, going on with daily life, and then to see that they have to get in a line where even at the check-out stand on a Marine base, they are greeted with newstand articles on their brothers in arms being villified already in the press. What other job as impossibly hard as theirs would add grievious insult to injury in this way?

    Nobody is saying much about this story that I’ve heard. The men and women on Base seem to be responding to the coverage in a few different ways; with numbness, a hard-edged indifference, or worse, a pained acceptance of whatever part of it cannot be ignored.

    In spite of all of it, in spite of insults, and fear and even family and financial hardships, STILL they go back out and continue to cover our asses with theirs! They, and all our troops, have my complete respect always for that kind of selflessness.

    They deserve better from us.

  46. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

    Here’s an article about LOAC

  47. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

  48. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

    Hmmmm, the link won’t show. There’s a good one on about.com, I googled it.

    [Fixed it. The secret is to highlight the text you want to become the link before you click the “link” button. If you don’t highlight anything, the link will still be in the code, but it won’t show — Emp. M.]

  49. LC Ranger 6 Comment by LC Ranger 6 UNITED STATES

    Oh, and I should have added…

    They are fighting the animals that hi-jacked 4 airliners filled with men, women and babies who most definitely were not combatants and flew them into buildings filled with men, women and babies who had committed the high crime of getting up and going to work that day to provide for their families.

    Death to islam. Kill them all.

  50. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

    Now you are starting to sound like Ann Coulter……I like it!

  51. Unregistered Comment by LC Staci GBOR UNITED STATES

    You know, thank God Washington didn’t have a bunch of whiny Monday morning quarterbacks critiqueing him. If he did, he was a lot more brutal. A LOT.

    And come on guys, we are prosecuting one of the last Abu Gharib soldiers, and the media and the far left needs a new one to harp all over and help give the terrorists more talking points.

    Shit, they are literally writing the script for bin Laden and Zarquerry.

  52. Unregistered Comment by LC Staci GBOR UNITED STATES

    These Marines weren’t fighting Iwo Jima, Hamburger Hill, or any other massive firefight. This was a civilian population center. It is like comparing apples and well, ravioli.

    DJ, 100%, but not the point you are trying to make.

    At least the ENEMY was in uniform, not dressed in uniform.

    And have you ever seen what the children learn in school over there? Or let’s say the mosques? I have, and even in Egypt, where we are peacefully, to hate us and wish for our death, it is common social studies.

  53. TPCrasher78 Comment by TPCrasher78 UNITED STATES

    This whole massacre thing, smells like a another attempt to make an Abu Ghraib out of a fucking molehill. Look, it sucks when the innocent die. But, let’s face facts. One, war is hell, get a fuckin helmet. Two, if you know your area is a combat zone, get the fuck out. Three, no one knows the full details on this Haditha business. We may never know, and I pray some stupid public trial does not come up. Let the military handle this with their own courts. This isn’t Rules of Engagement or High Crimes or some other damned liberals wet dream on nailing our troops. This is real life. Those guys had a choice. Choose to die, for abiding by cubscout rules and maybe looking good for the world. OR choosing to live, firing at a suspected enemy, and living with that choice. Both suck, and we know what choice was made. What happened is between the troops, the Almighty, and the others involved. This is not between the MSM and the other vultures.

    And anyone who thinks our troops are kill crazy sadists, ought to read back to the shit Saddam’s peckerhead Republican Guard did in Kuwait, to the Kurds, to their own fucking people in the Shiite Uprisings. Anyone calls us Nazis, read what the SS Einsatzgruppen did, read what their Muslim Troops did in Yugoslavia. Come back after reading that and say our troops suck. I fucking dare you.

    The last thing we need is a public trial on this shit. That’s why there’s military court. And there’s civilian and criminal courts outside the military. Different set of laws, period.

  54. JannyMae Comment by JannyMae UNITED STATES

    1. Intentionally killing unarmed civilians who pose no threat; and

    2. Unintentional deaths of civilians in a combat zone.

    There is a significant problem with this. We don’t know yet, what actually happened. You are presuming that scenario #1 took place. Lose the assumption, please.

    Sure kids can shoot guns. But that still doesn’t mean that in a non-combat situation where there is no direct threat, you can simply line up kids and shoot them.

    Again, it seems that you are presuming that this is what happened. Were you there? If this is indeed what happened, it’s inexcusable. Deliberate slaughter of innocents, without reason, is appalling. But, if the bad guys are responsible for these deaths, and have tried to pin the blame on the Marines, or if these, “innocents,” were, “collateral damage,” in a fight with the enemy, then we are talking about an entirely different situation, so your point, in that vein, is well taken.

  55. Unregistered Comment by LC Staci GBOR UNITED STATES

    Look, it sucks when the innocent die.

    Especially when they think there is no war and wake up to go to work or send their kids on a flight to go to some National Geographic field trip.

    And I do recall when we had riots out here, my mother would NOT let me go outside.

  56. L.C. Rowane Comment by L.C. Rowane UNITED STATES

    The Geneva Conventions apply to ALL MILITARY ACTIONS! Just because they are not following them doesn’t mean we can’t!

    Shorty, I don’t know how you can win a war when only one side follows a set of rules and restrictions.

    These soldiers that are protecting civilization are hamstrung from the start.

    Duty, Honor, Country
    (in THAT order)
    Rowane

  57. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

    Sir, I understand what you are saying: the rules are in their favor, because they don’t follow them. However, what I said is a legal truth. And *IF* these Marines did something wrong, the rules (LOAC, ROE and UCMJ) will punish them. We play by the rules, it’s not fair to us, but we do. We are completely unable to be proactive, and it is killing our people. But, one of the DUTIES of Marines and all other military members is to play by the rules. It seems though, that Washington is being selective about the rules sometimes. Remember the soldier who rolled the grenade into the tent at the beginning of the war? Under the UCMJ, he should have been tried in a field courts-martial and executed for treason during a wartime situation. All the evidence was there, but justice was not handed down immediately like it should have been. He actually had to be held by a unit other than his own, for fear that his unit would retaliate.

  58. Unregistered Comment by Cheryl UNITED STATES

    LC Ranger, Princess Natasha, I agree with you completely. Listening to the president’s pathetic mumblings yesterday on this latest trumped-up incident just about put me over the edge. I found his incoherence frightening. He appeared intimidated, and I do believe he’s lost his ability to govern. It would seem that the liberal media, along with the policians have taken control of the government.

  59. Unregistered Comment by Mark6591 UNITED STATES

    As many posters have noted, our alleged leadership has assumed the deer-in-the-headlights cringe before the media circus. I take this as a really bad sign that political rather than legal principles will drive the Haditha investigations. Waiting for more facts is a good idea, if indeed facts emerge. I would give any American soldier the benefit of a doubt regarding the deaths of the Iraqis. We may never get the full story, and what we get may well be politically motivated. The civillian powers have demonstrated an absurd tendency to indict soldiers for doing their duty. I suspect many of the marines will seek legal counsel - I sure as hell would. I do not wish to see these men offered up as a human sacrifice on the altar of political correctness.

    I have taken the liberty of wholesale duplication of a really good post by NCOShorty from:

    http://euphoria.jarkolicious.com/journal/2006/05/31/2427/

    ShortyNCO Says:
    June 1st, 2006 at 1226
    Maybe so, but there is a much smaller group of “We” in this case for rights in this case, the way it is handled and punishment, and that “We” is your VOLUNTEER military. This is a military issue, and it will be handled in military courts-martial. “Trial by jury of peers” in this case is a board of MILITARY members. The judge, *IF* it proceeds to courts-martial, will be a MILITARY member. All parts of this will be carried out with the honor and respect of all traditions of the military, including the investigation. “We” have laws governing us that you, if you have never been in the military or researched, have never heard of before! Did you know that a commissioned officers in the U.S. military DOES NOT have the right to free speech in all things? They are not allowed to speak out against the civilians appointed over them. This includes RETIRED commissioned officers, like those generals who are calling for the Honorable Rumsfield’s resignation. If the military were so inclined they can court-martial these people and send the to a Federal penitentiary, just for speaking their minds. So, the military will take care of it’s own, as always, and you can rest assured the truth will be found, and it will be handled the way it should be! If these Marines are guilty, then they will be found guilty, if they are not, they will not be. In either case the general public will be a bystander, and not a participant. Feel free to demonstrate and protest about it, just remember it is the U.S. military that defends your right to do these things.

    I really hope Shorty’s faith in the system is justified. Remember, Jack Murtha was a Marine and Weasely Clark a general officer and horse’s ass.

  60. LC Beaker Comment by LC Beaker UNITED STATES

    This is all bullshit. The way we should have fought this war is the way I wanted it done. On September 12, 2001, we should have completely destroyed Afghanistan (Followed by Pakistan, Iraq, Syria and Iran if necessary) with nuclear weapons.

    Period.

    This is Gulf War II, and we’re fucking it up. Hopefully, we’ll get it right in Gulf War III. After all, it took the Romans three tries before they solved their pesky Carthage problem. Sadly, we didn’t learn from that example and move straight to our own version of the Third Punic War.

  61. LCJackboot Comment by LCJackboot UNITED STATES

    Shorty #57-

    field courts-martial and executed for treason during a wartime situation

    Prolly not treason, more like an Article 99 with the same result- Execution if convicted. If the unit was under enemy fire at the time he would have been shot as he stood, all nice ‘n legal, sans courts-martial.

    My take on the affair is:

    1) We don’t know the details and may not ever get them as this will be handled by the military legal system. Essential facts may be sealed for opsec reasons.

    2)We do know that there is exculpatory evidence concerning the unit involved that has NOT been released.

    3)The investigation is ongoing, therefore any comment by anyone is inappropriate as it would be for an incomplete civilian criminal investigation. The leaking source in this matter should therefore be reasonably assumed to have an agenda, no?

    4) Yes we do make our troops play by the “rules” as our current military “folks” here at the Rott point out. With that said, we DO and WILL continue to encounter hostile children, women, etc. If our guys aren’t willing to pull the trigger on little Achmed with a dynamite belt he should come off the line.

    It’s sad that the left cannot and will not accept the concept of “Totality of War”. I lived and served through the Cold War. Do you think our Boomers and Missile Silos are armed with tactical weapons? Muli-Megaton weapons have a single purpose-to take out population centers. PERIOD. We devastated the Nazi war machine and moved on to the massive destruction of industrialized cities in general. LeMay’s B29 ops out of the Marianas was intended to devastate the japanes e civilian populace. It created casualties a number of orders of magnitude MORE than Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    That friends, is why the crews of those systems were hand picked. They KNEW that if the order came to push the button, babies, women, children, old men, nuns and puppies would die by the millions. But die they must if needs be the Price of Freedom.

    That tactic won the war in Europe and Japan, potentially saving millions of lives. It’s an aspect to be factored into the mix when engaging in war (and starting one). I agree without reservation, that sometimes real bad shit happens and innocents die. It sucks if you happen to be in a place where your government or leaders exposed you to that danger, but it’s bloody well not the fault of the guys on the sharp end of the sword.

    I’ll jump in with the other LC’s here. Let the investigation play out, the JAG folks will zealously prosecute any malfeasance and the public will get the story.

    Memo to Libs: We know you’ve written of yourselves and grandchildren in this 1000 year war. Do us a favor and keep the fuck out of Our Way to win this, besides you’ll be the last one the alligator eats. Isn’t that what you really really want? Bleat, moan and wring your fuckin’ hands until they bleed, bu t know this. Real americans will go down Standing and Fighting this war of the civilizations, if we win you can crawl out from under the bed and belly ache until the next one comes along. If we lose, maybe they’ll be in a good mood and sharpen the knife before they hack your head off.

    F.E.T.E.

  62. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    *sigh*

  63. Unregistered Comment by LC Staci GBOR UNITED STATES

    I can agree with this playing out before it’s tried being wrong. But what pisses me off, is as much attention as they made with those prison pics, you BARELY hear about how the US prosecuted the perps. And guess what, so does everyone else. And the damage is done.

    Another talking point for the terrorists. I thank the media and Murtha. FOAD.

  64. LC Ranger 6 Comment by LC Ranger 6 UNITED STATES

    *sigh*

    This is exactly why liberals can never be allowed to regain any power in our government.

    They’ll get us all killed.

    Or worse.

  65. JannyMae Comment by JannyMae UNITED STATES

    Murtha shooting his mouth off, via premature ejaculation, has inflated this incident exponentially. That’s why I find him so utterly disgusting.

    I have been saying all along that all this speculation is only fueling the fire, and we should wait until the investigation is completed, and let the military handle it through proper protocol.

    Over and out.

  66. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    This is exactly why liberals can never be allowed to regain any power in our government.

    They’ll get us all killed.

    Or worse.

    In case you hadn’t caught several of my previous comments on this topic, I will quickly summarize:

    I’d prefer to withhold judgement until all of the facts come in, and an official report is released. All of this stuff here is supposition and mental masturbation, trying to defend something that not one person here has any officially verified or concrete facts on.

    I have seen the gnashing of teeth and renting of garments concerning this story on several blogs — left and right — and they all don’t seem to be able to wait until the fookin’ facts are in.

    ergo, my *sigh*

    I don’t think it is a “Liberal” or a “Conservative” trait to want to wait until we know what the fuck we are talking about. Apparently, jumping to conclusions is though.

  67. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

    If you listen to talk radio, Michael Savage is talking about trying to get a very good lawyer for these guys.

  68. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant UNITED STATES

    I’d prefer to withhold judgement until all of the facts come in, and an official report is released. All of this stuff here is supposition and mental masturbation, trying to defend something that not one person here has any officially verified or concrete facts on.

    You  may prefer to wait, Dave - but Murthafucker, et. al, don’t apparently wish to do that.  And if we here in the Blogosphere don’t counter their bullshit, it’ll be accepted at face value as incontrovertible fact.

    And that is not acceptable.

  69. Unregistered Comment by bloodyspartan UNITED STATES

    It’s to late for that wait till the investigation is finished.
    This is war and we have to finish it all the way.
    Either we make it public policy that our troops will destroy anything that interferes with our winning and we will back them to the Hilt.

    Or We neuter our boys once again and pull out.
    The world must know that American people and leadership Will Do Whatever it Takes to Win.
    If the American people let this pass and don’t tell tell our leaders stop playing for the camera and do what we elected you for we are well on the way to extinction.

    I hate to say it but the Old Phrase Kill them all and Let God Sort them out is quite appropriate here.
    I fear once again they are Bush’s scapegoats.
    Sensitivity training has already started..
    Without fear it will get worse. Look at Karzai complaining about the riot.

    Bush is doing a Hell of a job with that kind and gentle religion known as Islam.

    This waiting for the investigation is BS.

    There have been some already, all this does it give time for the enemy to feed the flames.
    This is the same shit as the Koran down the toilet.
    The media intend to destroy what the military has accomplished.

    The only way to be safe is to give them all a choice

    Peace or Oblivion.

    Choose.

  70. LC Ranger 6 Comment by LC Ranger 6 UNITED STATES

    In case you hadn’t caught several of my previous comments on this topic, I will quickly summarize:

    DJ, I read several of your posts.

    My point:

    I

    Don\’t

    Care.

    I don\’t care what the investigation reveals or doesn\’t. If these guys killed attacking insurgents and they turned out to be children and women or if these guys did something outside SOP or lost it in a rage and shot up a bunch of muslims out of revenge for fallen comrades,

    I

    Don\’t

    Care.

    They are there doing what needs to be done. If they did lose it, take them off the line and send them home. I\’ll be happy to buy them a beer and help them decompress.

    They completed very tough training and were viewed under a microscope by their trainers. These guys would never have made it through boot camp if they were unbalanced (see: jesse macbeth) or had homicidal tendancies.

    If, under the stress of battle and sudden, brutal death of comrades, they did something YOU and the liberal asshat community in general consider an atrocity, go down to your local recruiting office, sign on the dotted line, do the training, deploy to Iraq and show us all how you liberals can conduct a necessary war better than these brave volunteers.

    Otherwise just shut the fuck up and thank your lucky stars that you have men and women willing to risk life and limb to give you maintain your right to be a complete fucking moron and not be summarily shot in the street for it.

  71. LC Ranger 6 Comment by LC Ranger 6 UNITED STATES

    Shit. \”give you\” was supposed to have a line strike through it.

    TECHNOMULIGAN!!!!

    [Not a problem, sir. Happy to help out. -S]

  72. Unregistered Comment by destarius SINGAPORE

    As much as I support the war and our troops and respect the sacrifices they’ve made, I cannot agree with LC Ranger’s position at all, and I doubt even serving Marines would as well.

    If they lined up innocent women and children and shot them, notwithstanding whatever pressure they were under, this would be a failing to comply with the Rules of Engagement and they should all be subject to court-martial, not a “it’s okay to shoot civilians, you were all tired and such”.

    The stress of battle is ABSOLUTELY no reason to excuse soldiers disobeying standing orders. The failure to punish alleged criminal behaviour of this magnitude would be a great victory for the terrorists and insurgents, and would lead to a general breakdown of discipline among the troops, and likely encourage further ‘breakdowns’ resulting in meaningless and unnecessary civilian deaths since it’s been given a greenlight.

    In addition, from the viewpoint of an Iraqi, imagine a US-flag waving Iraqi who loved the US troops. After an intense firefight which leaves a couple of brave Marines dead, the Marine unit decides to punish the entire village, pulls out half of his extended family and shoots them, execution-style, including his 5-year old daughter. What do you tell him? “You should be really glad our soldiers put their lives on the line for you, you ungrateful little towel-head, sorry about your family tho, lolz! Love, Cheney.”

    I don’t think that can be what you are saying. Let’s be glad and grateful for the brave soldiers who risk their lives daily, but it would be going too far to say that ‘bravery’ is an excuse for a breakdown in good order.

  73. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    I don’t care what the investigation reveals or doesn’t. If these guys killed attacking insurgents and they turned out to be children and women or if these guys did something outside SOP or lost it in a rage and shot up a bunch of muslims out of revenge for fallen comrades,

    And if they didn’t kill “attacking insurgents”? The allegations are that they weren’t attacking insurgents, but went on a civilian killing spree after one of their own was killed by a IED. Part of the story — allegedly admitted to by one of the Marines currently in custody — was where they led an Iraqi man out by gunpoint, shot him, and then planted an AK-47 on his body to make him look like an insurgent.

    Still don’t care?

    IF this story is true — and we won’t know until the report is released — then something terribly wrong occurred that day.

    You cannot just lump in all Iraqi civilians with the tiny number of insurgents to create a justification for this. There are rules of engagement, and targeting civilians is not part of those rules. I can understand collateral civilian deaths, but the allegations in this case do not support the collateral.

    We don’t know the facts yet. All we have so far is allegations. This is why talking about this as if we know what happened is just plain silly right now.

    If, under the stress of battle and sudden, brutal death of comrades, they did something YOU and the liberal asshat community in general consider an atrocity, go down to your local recruiting office, sign on the dotted line, do the training, deploy to Iraq and show us all how you liberals can conduct a necessary war better than these brave volunteers.

    What, do you think they would take me again — at MY age? Is the military so desperate that they would take 55-year-olds now? :lol:

    Do you think the military is an exclusive club for Conservatives? I think that you will find that the demographics in the military is roughly what it is in the real world.

  74. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant UNITED STATES

    Do you think the military is an exclusive club for Conservatives? I think that you will find that the demographics in the military is roughly what it is in the real world.

    Oh, really?

    Even more striking is the disappearance of liberals from the upper echelons of the military. In 1976, the ratio of conservatives to liberals in the military was 4 to 1. Now, according to the poll, conservatives outnumber liberals 23 to 1, with only 3 percent of senior military officers describing themselves as “somewhat liberal.”

    The Journal reports that among the civilian elite, 27 percent consider themselves somewhat liberal.

    Guess we could call that another “Air America’s ratings are improving” moment, eh, Dave? :lol:

  75. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

    He’s very right about the demographics. Another theory put forth is that insurgents killed everyone, and then lured the Marines down there to make it look like a massacre, and all else followed. Once again, this is a THEORY. I resent the comparison to My Lai. 500 civilians is very different than 2 dozen. Even if this happened, it was not ordered from higher up (My Lai), it was committed on the spot with one group, possibly for revenge. The My Lai comparison is merely a tool used by the military haters to drag the opinion of the military down. My Lai was different, I belive. If this did happen, I’m not trying to say it is not a terrible thing, but the scale is not the same as My Lai.

  76. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    Sure, the upper echelons of the military have always been Conservative. But the military is not made up of the upper echelon, the bulk are enlisted personnel and those are closer to the makeup of the rest of the country.

    It would be interesting to poll these people six months or a year out of the service.

    Guess we could call that another “Air America’s ratings are improving” moment, eh, Dave? :lol:

    Again with the AAR reference?

    We aren’t doing too bad in trends. Many markets have reached their “Preferred Advertising Block” goals (which for those of you who are not familiar with the radio market, the TRUE indicator for whether a station’s making it or not is by whether they qualify for Preferred Advertising Blocks. You can always tell the “health” of a station’s programming by listening to the types of commercials aired. — that’s something Brian Maloney and Michelle Malkin doesn’t tell you.)

    I don’t know how many times I have to say this but, AAR is NOT a network, it is a content provider. Many stations that call themselves “Air America Affiliates” usually offer content from more than one provider, such as Air America, Jones, Product First, and Westwood. A few of those stations even offer content from FOX.

  77. Unregistered Comment by charles68 UNITED STATES

    Randomly executing civilians will not lead to victory, unless the victory conditions include annihilation of the entire arab/muslim world. We aren’t there yet. In any case, that decision will be made at the top, and not where the rubber meets the road. If it ever comes to that, then it won’t be policy carried out by foot patrols.

    Until that time comes, our soldiers must fight according to the rules laid out for them.

    I’m all for escalation. For example, rather than detaining bad guys (who we really know are bad), let’s just kill them. Fine. If we want to intimidate, let’s use their ears as key rings. No harm done. But even this is light years away from executing non-combatant women and children.

  78. LC Ranger 6 Comment by LC Ranger 6 UNITED STATES

    You cannot just lump in all Iraqi civilians with the tiny number of insurgents to create a justification for this.

    I can lump all Iraqi’s into one group - ISLAMIC!

    I am subhuman to a believer in islam. I have no problem returning the favor.

    But thank you as a liberal for acknowledging that the insurgency is “tiny”.

    There are rules of engagement, and targeting civilians is not part of those rules. I can understand collateral civilian deaths, but the allegations in this case do not support the collateral.

    Let me translate moonbatese: :”But the “allegations” (moonbat for facts) in this case do not support the collateral (innocence of the Marines)”

    Here’s a clue: “Allegations” don’t support anything. To assert that the “allegations” support anything is an admission that you are a biased POS. Your liberalese is too obvious.

    You, as an American, should unwaveringly support our troops until there is OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary and then you should, AS AN AMERICAN, question that proof until it is undeniable. And even then you should err on the side that our soldiers had a break of some sort, to be sympathized with, not demonized.

    Instead you fucking liberals attack our soldiers from anecdotal evidence at best and convict them in the court of public stupidity.

    Fuck you liberals. These men are heros. They will never have anything but my utmost respect and admiration. If they fell from grace under the pressures of war they are still an order of honorable above any coward liberal that would dishonor their VOLUNTARY service.

    Do you think the military is an exclusive club for Conservatives? I think that you will find that the demographics in the military is roughly what it is in the real world.

    I think you are delusional. Nearly 100% of the military, active, inactive, retired and prior service hate liberals and support the War on Terror and this administration (with angry reservations about parts of it). The only anti-military people that have served are liars, politicians and mentally ill individuals, oh and the pussies that hit sick call daily.

    on your left, sick call
    can’t cut it, sick call
    fallin’ out, sick call

    The rest failed to survive birth.

  79. Princess Natasha Comment by Princess Natasha UNITED STATES

    That is the problem, Charles. It is not yet known if there was, in fact, an execution of non-combatants. However, our “dear” media are trying to pass judgment before all the facts are in. That is what gets people’s blood boiling, around here. Our “beloved” journos are willing to stand up for the “rights” of splodeydopes detained at Gitmo, yet they are pointedly ignoring the very real rights of these Marines. Innocent until proven guilty. If it’s good for the scum detained at Gitmo, it better be good for the Marines accused of certain bullshit.

  80. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

    Then again, I think everyone is conservative…….liberals just have this wierd brain disease. So, the demographics are the same!

  81. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant UNITED STATES

    Again with the AAR reference?

    Yeah, again.  Get used to it every time you say something stupid like that.  You may be the Imperial Tech Wizard, but when you make a stupid statement like the above, you get called on it.

  82. Emperor Darth Misha I Comment by Emperor Darth Misha I UNITED STATES

    What Natasha said.

    Could we cut the “you’re supporting the execution of women and children” bull, please?

    If, IF, IF (and I’ll drop dead of surprise if it turns out to be the case) these Marines, after the battle, rounded up women and children, lined them up and shot them in the head, then I think that you’re going to have to look long and hard to find anybody trying to excuse it. I know I won’t.

    What I’m talking about, and I’m still 100% speculating here since the investigation isn’t over, is whether civilians got killed in a firefight or not. As in accident. Shit happens. War sucks. Get over it.

    Besides, let’s not conflate the issues here. There’s a legal side and there’s the other side. If they broke the rules and disobeyed standing orders, then they’ll be punished. That’s the way it works. It may not be fair, it may not be reasonable, but that’s how it works. The other side, non-legal one, is: “Do I feel outraged and indignant that they did it?”

    This example:

    Part of the story — allegedly admitted to by one of the Marines currently in custody — was where they led an Iraqi man out by gunpoint, shot him, and then planted an AK-47 on his body to make him look like an insurgent.

    Again, as you yourself so very correctly point out, DJ: This is alleged, but let’s just for the nonce assume that what was said is true. Just as a mental exercise:

    A man was led out, was shot and had an AK-47 planted on him.

    So far the allegation. What it doesn’t say is whether he was just picked out randomly or whether there was a reason to pick him out for execution.

    For now, let’s discard the notion that they just picked a hapless Iraqi man because they felt like killing somebody. Again, this is a mental exercise. I don’t have insider knowledge and, for all that I know, he could’ve been sitting in his bathroom all the time knitting socks for Kurdish orphans. I’m getting to a point here, so bear with me:

    He could’ve been one of the guys shooting at the Marines a minute ago. “Oops, we’re losing here, I better drop this rifle and run off and hide, hoping they don’t find me.” Not at all unusual where unlawful combatants, partisans, franc-tireurs, call them what you want are concerned.

    Here’s my point (finally!, I hear you sigh):

    Would hunting him down, dragging him out and shooting the motherfucker’s head off be against the rules? Well, according to the rules and customs of war, it wouldn’t be. Too bad. You pose as a civilian in order to better be able to kill, you in turn can be executed on the spot in full accordance with the customs of war, no trial needed. You broke the cardinal rule of warfare, now eat a bullet.

    However, there’s the matter of the standing RoE. I don’t know for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised if following the customs of war built over centuries of warfare had been deemed too “barbaric” by some pencil-pushing, rear echelon Band of Bedwetters, completely ignoring WHY the customs of war are what they are. It’s to protect civilians. But logic never was the bedwetting generation’s strong suit, so I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that the RoE say that it’s a no-no.

    Which would mean, of course, that rules have been broken, orders disobeyed, which can only mean disciplinary action. Again, that’s how it works. It’s an idiotic rule, a stupid order, but that doesn’t mean that it can be disregarded at will.

    That’s the legal side.

    Now the other side: Would I be morally outraged at a Marine, or any other soldier, who just shot an unlawful combatant in the head after he’d broken every fucking rule in the book, endangering civilian lives by posing as one of them and killing one of our soldiers in the process?

    No. HECK no! Not a chance in Hell. Not now, not tomorrow, not ever. I’d buy that man a beer any day of the week and twice on Sundays because, under the circumstances, I MIGHT VERY WELL HAVE DONE THE EXACT SAME FUCKING THING.

    It’s the same with a speeding ticket. If I get one, I pay it. I have to pay it. I knew the rules, I broke them, I got caught. Pay the damn fine.

    But I’d never ever in a million years feel bad about having broken the rule in the first place.

  83. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty UNITED STATES

    Perspective:

    On December 7, 1941, Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor killed 2,403 military personnel and 63 civilians.

    From July 23, 1943 through August 3, 1943, successive fire and high explosive bombings of Hamburg killed over 50,000 people (mostly civilians) and destroyed over 250,000 homes.

    On the nights of February 13 and 15, 1945 the firebombing of Dresden killed between 25,000 and 35,000 lives. The majority of the dead were civilians and many were refugees.

    Germany, it should be noted, never directly attacked the United States.

    On the night of February 23, 1945 an estimated 100,000 Japanese civilians were killed in the firebombing of Tokyo.

    On August 6, 1945, Little Boy killed an estimated 80,000 Japanese civilians, with 60,000 dying in sucessive months of radiation effects.

    On August 9, 1945, Fat Man killed 39,000 Japanese civilians with an estimated 75,000 dying later of radiation effects.

    In no case did accusations of “war crimes” rise to the level of prosecution.

    In the attacks of September 11, 2001, an estimated 2,986 people were killed, (the majority being civilians) making them more deadly than Pearl Harbor.

    Whatever else one might gather from this, it should be clear that history points to a heavy toll to be exacted for again “rousing a sleeping giant.” That we have shown the restraint we have given our capacity and justification for destruction is nothing short of astonishing.

    We each stand surrounded by hundreds of thousands of innocent ghosts, every one demanding justification for a war to eradicate an ideologic equivalent to militant Islam. Yet, we do not question their incalculable loss, but quietly understand that it was a part of “what had to be done.”

    You will pardon me if I regard the current discussion as inane, bordering on idiotic.

  84. Unregistered Comment by bloodyspartan UNITED STATES

    I hate to say it guys but I believe we have already lost the battle on this one.

    With our warriors now undergoing Warrior Training I think we are finsished. The cowardly politicos have already signed off and want to find some one to hang it on. We are just waiting for the hit list.

    I think they only way to stop this would be for Bush to put a stop to the investigations.
    Tell them tough shit it it’s over. IT is called WAR!!

    I cannot understand how some news org. starts a story the day after it happened. What does this prove? You mean there were no imbeds this day. Afraid to leave the tent probably.

    This means all the weapons disappeared already right?
    All this bullshit after the scene has benn compromised means nothing. People get shot and blown up all the time in Iraq. I guess since they still had their heads it had to be Marines.

    Just like Pantino the JAG only wants convictions to make themselves look great.

  85. LC Mike in Chi Comment by LC Mike in Chi UNITED STATES

    This butthead had video and was wrong in the manner he presented it.
    IIRC, he hid it from the Marine group leader and passed it to his editor on the sly. He then sent the next month and a half back-peddling his rational on why he had to be sneaky.
    This news cycle will last till election day only to be overshadowed by eleventh hour brewhaha cooked up to sway nervous-nellie’s votes.
    DJ is right.
    Until the trial has concluded speculation is unprotected mental masturbation.
    SO, please, practice sanitary cerebral sex and use a tissue at least.

  86. LC Mike in Chi Comment by LC Mike in Chi UNITED STATES

    That should have been *...spent the next month.*

  87. LC Mike in Chi Comment by LC Mike in Chi UNITED STATES

    Oh crap…there is video.

  88. tvfoh Comment by tvfoh UNITED STATES

    Do you think. That our politicians will get any guts soon? or our talk show hosts? A Lt. Col called Rush from Iraq and asked to either be turned loose or bring him home. Rush tiptoed around that. does any one know of a politican that is saying what we think? no they just walk around wagging there tongues at these heros hoping that no one notices the bull crap running out there mouthes and ears because they are so full of it.

    “When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.” Thomas Jefferson

    TVFOH
    The View From Out Here

  89. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    What Misha said.

    [Note to Ranger: I refuse to engage in the ”fuck you” mentality. I don’t do it to you, and I would expect at least the same consideration in return. It just shuts me off from even considering anything you have to say — even if I might agree with it.]

  90. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    Technical Note: Yes, I am aware of those hash marks (/) appearing in the comments when you use a quote or an apostrophe. I am not sure what the problem is, it started happening right after I upgraded to WordPress 2.0.3 this evening. I suspect it has something to do with the markup features they changed, and hopefully someone else notices it quickly and comes up with a fix…

  91. Unregistered Comment by destarius SINGAPORE

    LC Moriarty, while it’s true that the Allies in WWII caused many civilian casualties, these casualties were caused to the populace of an enemy nation. The idea was to force a surrender, demoralise the enemy, deprive them of human resource, etc. It was not just ‘revenge bombings’, although it may have served that ancillary purpose.

    Unless you are calling Iraq an enemy nation, I think it’s fair to say that our soldiers should be extending some sort of basic rights to Iraqi civilians, such as not shooting them arbitrarily. I think at least part of the mission is to establish trust and confidence in the new government, and if the perception is that US troops can kill any civilian for any reason with impunity, than that mission is lost.

    I’m all for Misha’s position, but Ranger’s position goes too far e.g. civilians who volunteer to be human shields have given up their non-combatant status and should be turned into fine red mist, but those who have not shown to have anything to do with the terrorists and insurgents should not be groundlessly executed.

    While the facts are not yet clear, we can still draw the line as to what’s acceptable or not.

  92. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

    –[Sara Lister] declared during a recent Harvard-sponsored seminar. “The Marines are extremists. Whenever you have extremists, you have some risks of total disconnection with society. And that’s a little dangerous.” –

    Yeah, they are extremists–*Extreme* patriots! *Extreme*ly dedicated! *Extreme*ly honorable!

    Sorry, couldn’t pass that one up.

  93. Unregistered Trackback by CatHouse Chat UNITED STATES

    I believe in our Marines!…

    The blogosphere is ablaze with commentary concerning Haditha and the Marines who just might be tried for murder. Now, I don’t know exactly what happened: I wasn’t there. However, that idiot Murtha - who also wasn’t there - seems quite…

  94. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    Recent? That was October of 1997, and it had more to do with sexual discrimination and sexual harrassment issues than it did anything else.

    A great rebutle to Lister by Michael W. Rodriguez can be found here THIS is the description that people should think of when talking about Marines.

    A Marine wouldn’t commit the types of crimes that are lined out in the current allegations. Therefore, IF the allegations are true, then they weren’t Marines.

  95. Nanashi Comment by Nanashi UNITED STATES

    comesa

    And apparently, I became Italian.

  96. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

    Sorry, that was a quote I pulled right out of the article. Didn’t check the time of it.

  97. Nanashi Comment by Nanashi UNITED STATES

    Or I did, until my post went somewhere. Let’s try this again.

    For the 100,000,000,000th time: the blood of the innocents is not on the hands of the Marines, it is on the hands of cowardly shitbag terrorists hiding behind these innocents, without any regard for their lives.

    That is all.

    What she said. Place the blame where it’s due.

    You may prefer to wait, Dave - but Murthafucker, et. al, don’t apparently wish to do that. And if we here in the Blogosphere don’t counter their bullshit, it’ll be accepted at face value as incontrovertible fact.

    And that is not acceptable.

    That’s what it comes down to. I’m all for getting all the facts, but even then our collective opinions will matter as much as a mosquito fart in a tornado. The fact of the matter is that we’ll never have the right to sit in judgment…even as a veteran, I know I don’t.

    Not to be vulgar, but anyone putting on airs trying to insist that he/she somehow does simply by pretending to be saintly and virtuous can go play in the traffic.

  98. Princess Natasha Comment by Princess Natasha UNITED STATES

    –[Sara Lister] declared during a recent Harvard-sponsored seminar. “The Marines are extremists. Whenever you have extremists, you have some risks of total disconnection with society. And that’s a little dangerous.’’ –

    Sara Lister is one dumb-ass bitch.

  99. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    Like it or not, Murtha is privy to a LOT more information on this than anyone here. Should he have held his tongue until the investigations were over and a report released? Probably. I could be wrong, but so far I have only heard him state that there was evidence pointing towards the possibility of these charges being true, and that there was an official investigation looking into them.

    As far as being able to “pass judgment”, we all know what is right or what is wrong. Volunteer or not, our military serves as not only our defenders, but as our ambassadors as well. These people put the “face” on America to those abroad.

    As destarius pointed out in #91:

    Unless you are calling Iraq an enemy nation, I think it’s fair to say that our soldiers should be extending some sort of basic rights to Iraqi civilians, such as not shooting them arbitrarily. I think at least part of the mission is to establish trust and confidence in the new government, and if the perception is that US troops can kill any civilian for any reason with impunity, than that mission is lost.

    Remember, our mission there was to “liberate” the Iraqi people from a brutal dictatorship, where civilians were being “disappeared” and murdered by the Saddam regime. Iraq is not an “enemy nation” — we recognize and approve of its government. That government has serious concerns about what happened in Haditha, last November, and it was that government that pressed for an official investigation to look into these allegations.

    Now it appears there is a second and third set of allegations, probably brought on by opportunists in the anti-US coalition seeking to fan the flames.

    We shouldn’t be afraid to investigate these allegations, if for no other reason than to clear them up.

  100. LC Ranger 6 Comment by LC Ranger 6 UNITED STATES

    [Note to Ranger: I refuse to engage in the ”fuck you” mentality. I don’t do it to you, and I would expect at least the same consideration in return. It just shuts me off from even considering anything you have to say — even if I might agree with it.]

    Having lived in The Great Northwest Moonbat Breeding Grounds™ for 12 years its been my experience that moonbats “shut off” anytime they hear information that doesn’t align with their view of the world so frankly I don’t really care and the “fuck you” attitude comes into play anytime anyone, anyone, disparages the United States Military in any way.

    I would happily tear murthafucker’s throat out with my teeth [note to Secret Service: Only if it wasn’t illegal]

    Even imply that our great military is anything but the honorable, brave, patriotic organization that it is and you will get “Fuck You” all day long.

    [Note to DJ: Besides, having gotten a note from you I know you read it and that’s good enough]

  101. jaybear Comment by jaybear UNITED STATES

    Let me toss a theory out at ya’. It’s common knowledge that it is a doctrine of the islamic terrorist groups to work their hardest to discourage the America homefront.They remember the protests during Vietnam, our jellyfish stance on Iran after the hostage rescue disaster, Reagan pulling the Marines out of Beirut after the barracks bombing, and clinton’s brilliant handling of the somalian issue, i.e. skate out of there ASAP after we suffer casualties. In each one of those situations, America weakened and abandoned the campaign that they were engaged in….thus letting the bad guys win.

    Could it be, that this situation is being played to accomplish that goal? The islamobeasts already have their mouthpieces like murtha and cnn and others fanning this for all it’s worth, giving their beastly cause nothing but encouragement. Now, as DJ points out there are MORE allegations of so-called atrocities popping up….Look for more of this…don’t be surprised if we start finding clusters of bodies all over Iraq, supposedly killed by coalition troops. I fear that the slaughter will magnify in the coming days…encouraged by the guilty as charged bellowing and the anti-bush/anti-iraq/anti-military screeching of so many in the media and government…..

    Keep talking murtha, you senile bastard…keep shaming our troops, muslim supporting media….bad mouth them all you want kos and du….let’s have a running count of the innocent civilians that die as a result of your retarded, diseased ideaology and hatred of this nation.

    the body count starts now

  102. Emperor Darth Misha I Comment by Emperor Darth Misha I UNITED STATES

    …but so far I have only heard him state that there was evidence pointing towards the possibility of these charges being true, and that there was an official investigation looking into them.

    If only that had been all he’d said, Dave.

    But it wasn’t. He came out and openly stated as a fact that Marines had “killed civilians in cold blood” while being under incredible stress and pressure because of, you guessed it, the Evil BushHitlerCheneyHalliburton’s stupid invasion plans.

    Now how one manages to react irrationally out of unbearable stress, fatigue and desperation and does so “in cold blood” at the same time, I’ll let Murthafucker explain. In case somebody comes up with meds that can at least temporarily alleviate his obvious senile dementia, that is.

  103. Princess Natasha Comment by Princess Natasha UNITED STATES

    I suspect terrorists kill these civilians themselves, then blame the Americans. It has happened before, and it is a very plausible scenario. But the leftard swine such as Murthafucker and assorted journo-whores don’t even consider that possibility.

  104. Unregistered Comment by LC Staci GBOR UNITED STATES

    You know, IF these guys did do something like the soldiers in abu gharib, that was just atrocious, then whatever punishment is fitting, fine. BUT, for anyone, especially someone in Congress to say the shit that Murtha has, is just bullshit. WHY this is being played out in the news is the question. Again, feed the terrorists more talking points.

    Someone used this quote on another blog with this discussion, and it should give anyone with half a brain something to think about with fuckwits like Murtha who is spewing his shit with NO facts.

    “Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged”- Abraham Lincoln

    And Murtha has been doing this BEFORE this happened. I think we should exile his ass to Iraq to REALLY see what the fuck our soldiers are going thru.

    And Dave, that link you used as a counter only made me admire the Marines more. To be criticized for taking Kennedy’s quote “Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country” and label these guys extremists, that’s a bad thing? Well, for the handouts to a majority of losers and race baiters, maybe they can learn from this and do some attitude adjustment. I guess I would fall in the extremist camp too. Better than being a part of a group that shits all over this country during war.

  105. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

    OK, this is starting to become ridiculous. I could maybe believe that one of those incidents happened. Not likely, but possible, I’ll give it that. Now we’ve got *3*, including Haditha? I’m sorry, but No. Not just No, but HELL NO! Our military is too highly trained and disciplined in my opinion. I’m going to trust in our military trial to sort this out properly, they seem to have better luck than civilian courts at least. I just can’t believe that our ground pounders are cruel and undutiful to have commited the things that are being said about them. Duty, Honor, Country is a motto that too many of our military people live by. It is our DUTY to report ANY violation of LOAC, ROE or Geneva Conventions to our supervisors. I don’t care how much I like the guy next to me, if he is shooting unarmed civilians in cold blood, he is unworthy to be in my military, and a disgrace to the uniform he is wearing and should be treated as such. Maybe I’m in the minority, but I like to think that I’m not. If I am, then we have got serious problems.

  106. Grits Comment by Grits UNITED STATES

    Today, Sean Hannity mentioned that a young girl of 12 or so survived the “massacre” and she said she had put her fingers in her ears because she and 7 or 8 people in her family knew the bomb was going to go off when the Marine convoy came by. Logic tells me it was more than just that family of 7 or 8 that knowingly let a Marine patrol that was trying to protect them get blown up killing one Marine. Kill them with small arms? Nah. The town deserves about half an hour of intense arty followed by a thorough B-52 carpet to leave the place big craters and smsll gravel to make sure they get the bastard that set off the IED. Send the Marines home for some much deserved R&R. Other towns will get the idea that it isn’t wise or safe to knowingly let Marines die. The only one dead that has my sympathy is the Marine.

    Grits

  107. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    Having lived in The Great Northwest Moonbat Breeding Grounds™ for 12 years its been my experience that moonbats “shut off” anytime they hear information that doesn’t align with their view of the world so frankly I don’t really care and the “fuck you” attitude comes into play anytime anyone, anyone, disparages the United States Military in any way.

    Maybe it has more to do with someone having a “pottie mouth”.

    Usually when someone resorts to the “Fuck-yous”, it means that their argument has run out of steam. It’s the grown up version of a temper tantrum. I used to tell my kids to “use your words” when they would start screaming.

    But like I said earlier, some of your argument had merit, and other parts didn’t. But I lost interest in even discussing it with you.

    Sure, we could have traded a few “fuck-you”s (and a few other insults you probably have never heard before) but what would be the point?

    Perhaps you didn’t notice, but I wasn’t disparaging the military itself, in fact I went out of my way to say that we shouldn’t paint the military with a broad brush over the alleged actions of a few.

    MY point in all of this is IF any of this happened, then the perpetrators aren’t Marines except in the technical sense.

    Now late breaking news this afternoon has the Pentagon cleared troops of wrongdoing in Ishaqi

    Investigators have determined U.S. soldiers followed proper procedure and will not face charges for the deaths of at least four Iraqis during a raid near the town of Ishaqi on March 15, Pentagon sources said Friday.

    As I pointed out above, it is likely that with the one allegation, there would be others that follow — brought on by anti-US insurgency. Call them “copycat allegations”, if you will. But it certainly doesn’t mean we shouldn’t investigate, if for no other reason but to point out the fraud.

    Someone above mentioned “guilty until proven innocent”. I should point out that doesn’t legally apply in the USMJ. But that aside, we do have to assume that these guys are legally innocent, but look towards the investigation as a way to clear them. This is why I still say that until the investigation is done and over with, and a report released, trying to pick nits here is silly.

  108. LC Ranger 6 Comment by LC Ranger 6 UNITED STATES

    Usually when someone resorts to the “Fuck-yous”, it means that their argument has run out of steam. It’s the grown up version of a temper tantrum. I used to tell my kids to “use your words” when they would start screaming.

    I spent 8 years in the Infantry. The fact that I don’t say “fuck you” in the same fashion our youth now say “ya know” is a function of intensive speech rehabilitation.

    If I have a temper tantrum, you’ll know.

    I promise.

    Perhaps you didn’t notice, but I wasn’t disparaging the military itself, in fact I went out of my way to say that we shouldn’t paint the military with a broad brush over the alleged actions of a few.

    “I support the troops, but not the war” meme has a maximum effective range of zero meters. Oblique attacks on the military are as damaging and dangerous to the men on the line as murthafucker’s comments.

    Grow up DJ. You can’t be anti-war and pro-troops. Its like saying you are anti-racist and pro KKK.

    MY point in all of this is IF any of this happened, then the perpetrators aren’t Marines except in the technical sense.

    First, I dare you to say that to a Marine (other than murthafucker) and survive.

    Second, MY point is why the fuck you even give this horseshit any credence.

    You, as an pro-American (making assumptions here), should vehemently defend the Marines in question until proof undeniable materializes. To do any thing less means that you hope these Marines lose. And then if proof does materialize proving their guilt, you should scream for an investigation to find out exactly what caused this incident and the mental break of our brave soldiers – all the time defending them against negative publicity. To do otherwise would make you a very bad person, much like our loathsome murthafucker.

    Someone above mentioned “guilty until proven innocent”. I should point out that doesn’t legally apply in the USMJ.

    Where did you serve DJ? I’m surprised at your knowledge of the UCMJ. Were you JAG? I really am interested to know. Please elaborate.

    But that aside, we do have to assume that these guys are legally innocent, but look towards the investigation as a way to clear them. This is why I still say that until the investigation is done and over with, and a report released, trying to pick nits here is silly.

    DJ, I certainly don’t want to believe that you are stupid. I want to believe that you are a very smart misguided moonbat with exceptional technical skills.

    But you have to understand that you can’t, simply can’t, send troops into battle and then pin their arms to their sides. You can’t rationally expect that collateral damage won’t occur. And you can’t expect a soldier in a war zone to act like a woman in Albertson’s grocery store when someone does something provocative, you know like shoot her kid riding in the cart.

    Here’s a hint, when you live in a war zone:

    1) Don’t yell loudly at people with guns.
    2) TELL THE MARINE CONVOY THAT’S COMING THAT THERE IS AN IED ABOUT TO EXPLODE WHEN YOU KNOW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
    3) Don’t play Frisbee with the little yellow discs that the planes and helicopters drop.

    The moral of this post DJ, catch a clue, you’re hurting America with your viewpoint, however much you have the right to it.

    Oh, and FUCK YOU!!!

  109. Unregistered Comment by NCOShorty UNITED STATES

    What does USMJ stand for? S is too far from C in may opinion to be a fatfinger. Maybe X,D,F or V. The UCMJ is the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

  110. Unregistered Comment by Nilk AUSTRALIA

    Short time lurker, first time poster.

    I’ve only just read about whatever has been happening in Haditha, so expect plenty of ignorance from me.

    That said, I am appalled at the treatment meted out to our troops (I’m allowed to say that because as far as I’m concerned, you Americans are mine just as much as the Aussies are) by the so-called purveyors of information.

    The only thing I saw on the news about this last night was the announcement of ‘ethics training’ for military personnel in war zones, to which my instant response was a loud ‘fark you!’ at the tv.

    There is not a lot I can contribute to this discussion except to say that any marine visiting Australia can just drop me a line. I’ll make sure that you never have to buy a beer anywhere in this country.

    You are honoured and appreciated more than you know, and I am past the stage of caring what the meeja have to say about Haditha. We all know that it will be as far from the truth as possible, in order to make our men and women over there look as bad as possible.

    The minute this situation arose, there should have been a media blackout, to ensure that the investigation could occur with minimal interference from grandstanders like Murtha. Now, any outcome will be tainted and worthless. The only ones who know the truth are those involved and God.

    God bless all of those serving in the Middle East, and God be with you all.

    And if I were in a position of authority, the bombs would have been dropping from September 18, 2001. (I figure a week to mobilise should be plenty of time.)

  111. Emperor Darth Misha I Comment by Emperor Darth Misha I UNITED STATES

    I spent 8 years in the Infantry. The fact that I don’t say “fuck you” in the same fashion our youth now say “ya know” is a function of intensive speech rehabilitation.

    Well, you do most certainly have a point there, Ranger 6. I ran into a WWII vet the other night, nice man, suit and tie, undoubtedly somebody who’d moved on in the world, yet the moment he and I found out we were on the same wavelength, f*cks and a**holes went flying all over the place. It’s just jargon. You tune into it instinctively and it doesn’t really mean what a lot of people think that it means.

    Now, on to other matters.

    Actually, you CAN “support the troops” and “oppose the war” at the same time. There’s one way of doing so, and the only reason that we’ve reached the point where such a thing seems impossible is because hardly anybody espouses the correct way of doing it. Allow me to illustrate how those two seemingly incompatible views can exist, honorably and honestly, in the same person (this is, of course, not my personal view):

    “I think this war was a mistake, but since we, as a nation, have decided to send the troops in, we have to finish the job and I support our troops in the great job they’re doing, whether I agree with the overall objective or not. My beef is with the ones who give the orders, not with the boots on the ground. We decided to do it, now let’s finish the damn job.”

    Like I said, I support the objective, I think that our going in was the only right thing to do, so I support the troops AND the war, but I just wanted to point out that it is possible to not support both and still be honorable and honest.

    Let’s take another example: Kosovo. I don’t honestly think that it was something that we should’ve wasted money and blood on, it was the EUnuchs’ problem and a horrible mess of ethnic conflict going back to the middle ages, and it’s no secret that I wouldn’t piss on Clinton if his dick was on fire, but once the decision was made I supported the troops all the way. I didn’t think the job was worth doing, but once the decision is made you’d damn well better make sure it’s done or all the sacrifices will have been in vain. As was the case in Somalia.

    So yes, it can be done. The problem is that the vast majority of people “opposing the war but supporting the troops” aren’t being honest. They want the troops to lose because they’re against the war and they’re lying through their fucking teeth when they say otherwise.

    But that doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to support the troops and oppose the war at the same time, it just means that it’s become a cliche.

    Or let’s take something much more personal (for me, at least), WWII ETO.

    Isolationists can make a very good case as to why the U.S. should’ve never gotten involved and lost thousands upon thousands of her youth on the battlefields of Europe. One of the crimes that the Nazis didn’t commit, and there are precious few of those, was to attack the U.S. directly. From a purely strategic point of view, there was no reason for our great nation to get involved. Yet we did, and I’ll be forever in the debt of this country because of it, because I’d have grown up under tyranny if it hadn’t been the case.

    But I can’t, logically, say that the U.S. had to step in, and I can certainly see how isolationists may have thought it was all a waste of effort yet decided to stand by their country and see it through once the decision had been made.

  112. Emperor Darth Misha I Comment by Emperor Darth Misha I UNITED STATES

    And welcome aboard, Nilk!

    I’m honored to have you as a subscriber and, in case you should ever choose to come over here, drop me a line.

    I’d be more than happy to make your stay as pleasant as humanly possible, if you’d bear with me for constantly trying to make you stay forever, that is :)

  113. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    The moral of this post DJ, catch a clue, you’re hurting America with your viewpoint, however much you have the right to it.

    Oy veh. Hurting America? Are you telling me that people hang on my very word and opinion? (okay, maybe the vast majority of Americans pretty much agree with me on this, but I dare say it isn’t because I am saying it.)

    “I support the troops, but not the war” meme has a maximum effective range of zero meters. Oblique attacks on the military are as damaging and dangerous to the men on the line as murthafucker’s comments.

    Grow up DJ. You can’t be anti-war and pro-troops. Its like saying you are anti-racist and pro KKK.

    The troops didn’t put themselves over there. They did what they were supposed to — they followed orders. They don’t have to agree with those orders, nor do they have to even approve of the war — but they go because that is what they do.

    You are the one choosing to combine policy with those who impliment it. I am against the policy, NOT those who are charged with carrying it out. Not all of us are brainwashed into thinking there isn’t a difference.

    Can you tell me who said the following?

    The president must remember that the military is a special instrument. It is lethal, and it is meant to be. It is not a civilian police force. It is not a political referee. And it is most certainly not designed to build a civilian society. Military force is best used to support clear political goals, whether limited, such as expelling Saddam from Kuwait, or comprehensive, such as demanding the unconditional surrender of Japan and Germany during World War II. It is one thing to have a limited political goal and to fight decisively for it; it is quite another to apply military force incrementally, hoping to find a political solution somewhere along the way. A president entering these situations must ask whether decisive force is possible and is likely to be effective and must know how and when to get out. These are difficult criteria to meet, so U.S. intervention in these “humanitarian” crises should be, at best, exceedingly rare.

    [I’ll wait, go ahead and Google it, if you don’t know…]

    Give up?

    It was none other than Condoleeza Rice, in her scepticism about using the military as a tool to remake nations and civilize a hostile world. She wrote this piece Foreign Affairs to attack the missuse of the US military in nation-building projects during the Clinton years. She wrote this back in 2000, while she was the principal foreign policy advisor to the man who was soon to become President Bush.

    How things have changed.

    Our military was never designed for police actions. Historically, we have been lousy at it — even with a president who didn’t live in a bubble like this one does.

    The only thing 9/11 changed, was to provide the excuse President Chuckles needed to go into Iraq — something he said he was going to do even before he “won” the presidency in 2000.

    He either didn’t take into consideration or he didn’t care that Iraq was made up of three separate waring factions kept in place by a brutal dictator. These factions have hated each other for longer than the US has been a country. Their memories are generational, whereas we have a collective memory going back maybe thirty years.

    First, I dare you to say that to a Marine (other than murthafucker) and survive.

    Funny you should mention that. I was talking to a Marine Captain this morning about this very thing, and he agreed with me.

    You, as an pro-American (making assumptions here), should vehemently defend the Marines in question until proof undeniable materializes. To do any thing less means that you hope these Marines lose.

    Hell, I can’t even defend some of the things I’ve done in my life, and now you are asking me to defend something that we still do not have all of the facts on? How can I say this in a way that you might be able to understand?

    We do not have the facts on this story. We only have allegations. Allegations are NOT proof that these men did anything wrong, so there is really nothing to defend them against. When we get the FACTS, then you can start talking about defending them based on the facts. I am making no assumptions of their guilt at this point. I just want to know the FACTS before I pass any kind of judgment.

    YOU on the other hand are jumping to the conclusion that the facts are already in, and you want to now justify them. At this point, it is still all supposition.

    And then if proof does materialize proving their guilt, you should scream for an investigation to find out exactly what caused this incident and the mental break of our brave soldiers – all the time defending them against negative publicity. To do otherwise would make you a very bad person, much like our loathsome murthafucker.

    You are putting the cart before the horse here. First, establish whether something did happen. It sounds like you are already determining that this happened the way the allegations say it did. I am not willing to go that far. I want to know the facts first. Then, and only then can we determine what it was that caused it to happen.

    You make the assumption that I think what happened was somehow criminal, or even evil. I don’t know. What I do know is that given enough stress, we are capable of doing things we wouldn’t ordinarily do. Of course I would want to explore how this happened — if it did. You might not like the answers though.

    I have devoted waaaaay to much time on this topic — considering that none of us really know anything yet. Like I said some 100 or so comments ago, I really want to wait until the official report is out before I say anything further. Let the investigation run its course, THEN determine what, if anything needs to be said or done about it.

    The REAL crime is to assume anything before all of the facts are in.

  114. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    “I think this war was a mistake, but since we, as a nation, have decided to send the troops in, we have to finish the job and I support our troops in the great job they’re doing, whether I agree with the overall objective or not. My beef is with the ones who give the orders, not with the boots on the ground. We decided to do it, now let’s finish the damn job.”

    Dammit, Misha, you took the words out of my mouth. (actually, it took me two hours and a lot of interuptions to send my last comment.) That was a perfect example of how it is possible to support the TROOPS, and still be against the war.

    It can even be possible to have supported the war initially, and then find that for whatever reason, further presence was only making matters worse and not better, and still support the troops.

    But simply mouthing the words and putting a magnetic ribbon on your car isn’t really enough for me. I volunteer through my local VA and a couple of other organizations that offer support to injured personnel, and family support to personnel currently deployed. Fifteen percent of my income goes to those causes. I put in a minimum of ten hours per week towards this. That’s how much I “hate” the troops, Ranger.

    I probably should clarify myself a little about my support of this Iraq thing:

    My problem wasn’t the need to take out Saddam. We needed to, we did, and we did a great job doing it. My problem was the aftermath. There was no real planning for the aftermath — and from every indication, there still isn’t. There is no yardstick for success, no defined point where we can say it is done, now let’s go home.

    The administration apparently didn’t take into consideration that the only thing holding the three waring factions (Kurds, Sunnis and Shias) together was a strongman government. Once we took that away, all hell broke loose.

    I think it is a huge mistake to assume that the insurgents in Iraq are the same “al-Qaeda” that caused 9/11 just for the purpose of putting a face on what we are “fighting” over there. Most of the insurgency are the Iraqi factions fighting for control. By definition, it is a civil war — that we find ourselves in the middle of — even if we don’t want to offically admit it.

    If it weren’t for the fact that our country and economy wasn’t so dependent on the oil, we wouldn’t give a rat’s ass about any of them. These problems started way back when the British controlled the area and the oil fields. It was the British who drew the artificial lines creating Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, etc, and they did it not for the people who occupied that land, but for the oil companies that pumped the oil.

    One of the biggest blunders we’ve made in Iraq was bringing in contractors to do the work that the Iraqis could have been doing. We disbanded their security because they were baathists. (under the Saddam regime, you HAD to be a baathist to have any of the good jobs) Unemployment is over sixty percent in Iraq, and all they see are over-paid US contractors doing the jobs they could (and should) be doing.

    Appearances are everything to these people. These are a proud people, and they need to be able to work their problems out amongst themselves. Our role should have been in the background, not a domineering one.

  115. Unregistered Comment by Nilk AUSTRALIA

    Thanks for the welcome, Misha. :) Next time I’m in the States, I’ll drop you a line, although it won’t be for a while.

    Back on topic now.

    Looking at the ‘news’ about Haditha and the Middle East in general, I’m starting to lean towards the idea of pulling the troops out.

    This is not so much a surrender/cut and run scenario, although it will be played up as such in the meeja. The MSM will portray anything we do in a bad light, so f*ck them. Let’s get our guys out of there, and let the Iraqis, Afghans and the rest fight it out amongst themselves. As the curse goes: May you get what you wish for.

    And what do we do when our lads and lasses are back home where they belong? We strengthen our borders. With Mexico, with the Top End in Darwin and on the Cape York Peninsula. With East Timor and the Solomons.

    We all know it’s going to get a lot worse before it gets better, and everything I read looks like it’s ramping up.

    Time to look out for number one, as we get no gratitude for looking after others.

    Whenever there’s a natural disaster, it seems like the only assistance comes from the Evil and Lesser Satans with a few satellites. Funny that. I know that zakat is a big thing, but not for infidels, and in any case, disasters are Allah’s will.

    When we got hit with Cyclone Larry recently, about the only assistance offered came from George W Bush. Quelle surprise!

    I’m over sacrificing our best and bravest for a pack of ingrates. And that includes the moonbats with their delusions of righteousness.

    /rant.

    (Apologies. Just been reading Malkin)

  116. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW UNITED STATES

    The MSM will portray anything we do in a bad light, so f*ck them.

    I wrote something about that in a comment here. You will never get good news from the media, because it isn’t what the people want to hear.

    Let’s get our guys out of there, and let the Iraqis, Afghans and the rest fight it out amongst themselves. As the curse goes: May you get what you wish for.

    It is probably the best thing we could do. All we are doing there right now is prolonging the inevitable. These people have to feel the ownership in their country and their destiny. Will things get worse when we leave? Probably, but I think they will get worse no matter when we leave.

    We’ve accomplished the mission we initially set out to do in Iraq: We got rid of Saddam Hussein. We didn’t fail in our mission, and we have something to be proud of. Now let the Iraqis do the rest.

  117. LC Ranger 6 Comment by LC Ranger 6 UNITED STATES

    You are the one choosing to combine policy with those who impliment it. I am against the policy, NOT those who are charged with carrying it out. Not all of us are brainwashed into thinking there isn’t a difference.

    No. I am saying that during a time of war, you and your ilk are providing aid and comfort to the enemy while we have troops in harms way.

    If you don’t like the policy, vote others in [here’s a clue, you can’t because the MAJORITY wins. This doesn’t include you]. Spewing your anti-war, anti-American rhetoric does nothing but encourage the ENEMY, give them sound and video bites to replay over and over in the middle east and generally get ignorant people to kill our troops.

    Wake up asshole. You have the blood of American soldiers on your hands and for that I would happily knock your teeth out.

    There are ways to protest that don’t involve enabling the enemy. If you can’t understand that, I’ve no use for you [remainder of comment deleted to protect the innocent]

    YOU on the other hand are jumping to the conclusion that the facts are already in, and you want to now justify them. At this point, it is still all supposition.

    You are either illiterate or stupid or intentionally obtuse. My bet is all three.

    I said I don’t care what the facts come back as. I admire and hold in high regard these men simply for the fact that they are willing to volunteer to do what you have seen fit to not only never do, but criticize from afar and enable those who would try and stop them from doing it.

    Defend this country.

    Hell, you can’t even do it with words. You are a coward of the lowest order.

    Let me say it again:

    Fuck You.

  118. Emperor Darth Misha I Comment by Emperor Darth Misha I UNITED STATES

    Now… I don’t, as a rule, get involved in other people’s flame fests (they’re too much fun to watch and, besides, it’s not like anybody around here really NEEDS my help), but I have to say that you’re being unfair here, Ranger.

    You’re absolutely right that there ARE those that are lying through their teeth when saying that they “oppose the war, but support the troops”, using it as a transparent cover for their desire to help our enemies prevail in order to “get back” at the EEEEEVIL Bush.

    There are a LOT of them, to be exact.

    But DJ ain’t one of ‘em.

    Quite to the contrary, as a matter of fact. He’s gone out of his way, since the first post around here on the Haditha matter, to repeatedly state that the facts aren’t in, that it’d be unconscionable to draw conclusions about the “guilt” of the Marines before they are (if they’re guilty of anything at all) and that all of this, until the report is published, is nothing but speculation.

    Heck, he was saying that even before I was.

    He’s not the one claiming that the Marines are guilty prior to the evidence being in. He’s not the one calling them “cold-blooded murderers”. The likes of Murtha are doing that and, as far as I can tell from what he’s written on the subject, they don’t even remotely belong to DJ’s “ilk.”

    Of course, I could be completely wrong, but that’s how I interpret things.

  119. Unregistered Comment by destarius SINGAPORE

    I’m probably jump in here and agree with the Emperor. DJ has been fairly balanced in his assessment.