Not Much Kossing at the Yearly Kos (A Post in Which I Ramble On and On in Hopes that I Might Reach an Actual Point)
Posted by: Emperor Misha I in Imperial Thoughts, Politics2:23 am
At least that seems to be the conclusion (albeit somewhat simplified by yours truly) in this post from IB The Jawa Report as well as elsewhere among “infiltrators” who attended the over-hyped event in hopes of actual, you know, debate. For example, the series run at the IB Hot Air (this is just one link, but read all of them if you haven’t already done so, links are at the bottom of each post).
I’m not surprised, however.
I can certainly understand why so many people were taken aback by the lack of actual debate and critical questions. You only have to read a random post at the Daily Kotz along with its comments to get the impression that you’re dealing with a bunch of opinionated, fire-breathing idealists willing to take on any idea in brutal mouth-to-mouth combat (OK, so that might not have been the best way of putting it, but you understand what I mean), but that’s just their online personas speaking. Not that conservatives don’t have online personas as well, online personas that differ a lot from their real life cuddly selves, even I have been accused of being “nice” and “polite” in real life (but don’t believe a word of that nonsense), but what we don’t have is the group-think so prominent among liberals/socialists/progressives. Conservatism isn’t a religion. Liberalism, on the other hand, is. Yes, there are exceptions, and I always enjoy running into them, but there aren’t nearly enough.
Gather two or more conservatives in the same place and you’ll have furious debate about politics from the moment that you’re done shaking hands and introducing yourselves, sometimes it won’t even last that long, your main problem will be to get people to shut up for long enough to replenish the supplies of good eats and copious drink.
In your typical gathering of conservatives, nothing is sacred. Sure, there are issues more volatile than others, but everything’s open to discussion if whoever offering the challenge actually wants to discuss it. If you want to take it to extremes, Devil’s Advocate is a game that conservatives play better than any other group of people and it’s just about as much fun as you can legally have without taking your clothes off. And once you’re done tearing each other to shreds verbally, depending on how far you want to take it, you shake hands, agree to disagree and tear into somebody else. Once you’ve figured out where the heck the beers are hidden.
Am I stereotyping here? Oh yes I am, but my personal politics have been firmly anchored on both sides of the political divide, and I’m here to tell you that it’s not nearly as much of a stereotype as you might think.
So why weren’t the halls and corridors filled with furious debate at the Yearly Kotzfest? Forget about it being because it was a gathering of like-minded people. Again, try gathering a few “like-minded” conservatives and see just how long it takes before people are citing sources, splitting hairs and quoting literature while making snide remarks about each other’s intelligence. We don’t agree on anything. That’s our strength, it’s not a weakness. We don’t accept anything as catechism, unchallengeable and true just because it’s been decided that it’s true. There are issues that we rarely ever debate because they’ve been debated to death already and it’s not all that much fun repeating yourself, but if anybody feels like it, bring it on. And do make sure that the beer cooler is well-stocked first. It’ll be fun.
It’s because liberalism/socialism/progressivism (and I’ll call it “socialism” from here on out because I’m getting tired of typing it all out every time. Just substitute the whole mess if you feel that I’m being unfair, I couldn’t care less) is an ideology for young people who are looking for an anchor, a set of established “truths” that they can learn by heart and cling to for dear life. It’s also an ideology built on a desire for a utopian paradise that we’d all love to live in but, once reality smacks us in the face and we learn how the world really works, is impossible to achieve. Again, this is a religion for young, well-meaning people who just want everybody to be happy and content. Who could possibly see anything wrong with that? I can’t. I was one of them. I still don’t see anything wrong with the ideal that they’re striving for, but I’ve learned enough from studying the real world and the history of it to know that it’s not merely an impossible dream, the only way you can even hope to get there is by denying human nature and trying to force humans to be something that they’re incapable of being. And that’s why it inevitably leads to the horrors of the concentration camps, the gulags, the purges and G-d knows what else socialism is responsible for.
The only thing it can’t and won’t ever claim responsibility for is success. You might as well try to reverse the law of gravity.
And since it’s inherently a religion based on an impossible ideal, dissent and questioning is not allowed. When people start questioning it because the “brilliant” theory of it doesn’t seem to work all that well, they eventually become conservative (or libertarian, or neo-conservative, or whatever. I’m trying to save space here). That’s what happened to me. I don’t regret my youthful idealism, I still stand by my adolescent desire for a world in which everybody had what they needed and contributed what they could, but it just doesn’t work that way. There’s nothing “dumb” in wanting a world like that, it’s a laudable desire to create Heaven on Earth and, like most daydreams, it’s utterly undoable. But hey, you’re young. You’re supposed to dream. As a matter of fact, you’re supposed to dream all of your life, because that way true progress lies. Just don’t do it to the point where you’re denying reality and sleepwalking through life.
You’ve got to work with what you’ve got. I’d love to be able to fly without mechanical assistance, but I don’t have wings. So I build a plane.
That’s the conservative way. I can’t change my physiology to the point where I grow wings, so I find another way of doing it, taking into account the limitations that I cannot escape. Hello Real World™. I hate you, but I have to work with you because you’re all that I have. That’s called “growing up” and that’s what is the difference between socialists and conservatives. The socialists are either still in Phase One or just decided never to leave it because they liked it better there. I can’t blame them. The real world is an uncompromising, heartless bitch. I just can’t waste my life in a fantasy world that doesn’t, that can’t exist.
So how does this tie into the lack of dissent and debate at a gathering of socialists? It ties in perfectly.
If your entire world view is a house of cards built on well-meaning falsehoods and “gee I wish it was that way”s, you can’t afford anybody questioning it for any reason. If you allow that camel to poke its nose under the tent, you’ll have to start re-examining everything that your utopia is based on and, since it is logically impossible for it to exist in the real world (it’s been tried more than enough times, with predictable and tragic results), you’ll soon end up being faced with the choice of either losing your safety blanket and facing the real world on its own terms or just nodding like a moron in order to avoid upsetting the apple cart upon which you’ve built your fantasy world.
Just ask Christopher Hitchens what happens when you challenge the catechism of socialism. Ask me. I’ve been there, I have done that, I have the T-shirt and the scars of ripping off the umbilical cord to a world that exists only in the fantasy of well-meaning idiots.
No, I’m not in the least surprised that the Yearly Kotz turned out to be a gathering of nodding robots boring everybody who’d hoped for signs of intelligence and individual thought to tears, because I was once one of them. I couldn’t turn off my brain and accept the religion of socialism at face value, so I had to leave. Not easy, because I felt quite comfortable in the womb of wishful thinking, but I’m glad that I did.
But I would no more expect individualism and passionate debate from a bunch of socialists than I’d expect a beaver to come up with the Grand Unified Theory.
Individualism is anti-thetical to socialism. You get a set of pre-approved talking points decided upon by your “betters” and you’d damn well better stick to them or you’ll be ostracized as being anti-social.
Too harsh? An example:
Right to life. How much debate have you witnessed among the left regarding abortion? How much debate have you witnessed among the right regarding Terri Schiavo?
On the right, we took up a difficult and immensely divisive issue, getting quite angry and passionate about it and calling each other names in the process. I know I did. Yet we’re still here. I still don’t agree with the outcome, but it’s water under the bridge now. What’s done is done and each side had their say. Time to move on. We’re still friends as far as I’m concerned. If the issue comes up again in some other future case, we’ll jump back in the trenches and have another go at it but, for now, it’s over. We both had our say, we knew that we couldn’t both have our way at the same time, but we spoke out, no holds barred, and that’s what it’s all about, in my opinion. We can’t always, all of us, agree, but we owe it to ourselves and those who come after us to face the discussion, to say what we need to say, even if it puts us at logger-heads with people we normally agree with. Let it never be said that we held our tongues for the sake of convenience, for the sake of keeping the peace for peace’s sake.
Do you see the same thing happening if half of the left were to question NARAL?
I’m an individualist and I’m proud of it. I’m an individualist and I’m a conservative because of it. I know what I believe, I know that I believe it because I think that I’m right, not because somebody else has told me that I’m right, but I also know that I don’t know that I’m right, which is why I so much enjoy people challenging my beliefs. It makes me smarter, and it helps me understand the very REAL world that we live in.
Challenge my beliefs all you want, as long as you present an argument based on real life observations and actual facts. I may not agree with you, I may say things to you that are decidedly uncharitable and you may return the favor as much as you like, but at the end of the day I’ll know that I had a debate with an individual instead of an insecure, helpless drone and, on top of that, we’ll still have an awful lot of beer that needs drinking and I need your help.
If you end up agreeing with me that’s great, but it’s worthless unless you know why you agree with me rather than just bobbing your head like one of those idiotic dog dolls that were all the rage in cars years ago.
We’re individualists, even when it hurts. Especially when it hurts. It’s not worth a damn if there’s no price involved.
That’s what makes us different, and that’s why looking for independent thought at a festival of fools like the Daily Kotz is like looking for diamonds in a dog turd.
Thatisall.
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Well then let’s see if I can ramble on without a point…:lol:
Clinton Links GOP Policies to More Storms
Its always worth listening to a known pathological liar when he tells you he’s backing up his barking moonbat of a VP…:lol:
June 13th, 2006 at 4:41 amAn excellent post, sir. A further comment is here…
DK
June 13th, 2006 at 5:03 amI second the motion by DK - a top-notch post, mein Imperator!
June 13th, 2006 at 6:52 amContinuing the discussion, both literally and figuratively, is there any more planning going on among the LCs out there for a NW gathering of Rott fans? I’m currently in Vancouver, WA, listening to Lars Larson every day; is there any way I can help make it happen??
Tim
Nice post, but as a stereotypical conservative, I must dissent.
I beg to differ. I turned away from the socialist utopia myself because there was something dangerously dumb about wanting heaven on earth. G-d gave man free will to make good and bad decisions and take their consequences. The socialist vision of heaven (and it is a religious dogma) is a land where there are no choices. In this “perfect” world where it is impossible for a properly perfected man to make any wrong choices because an enlightened state makes all of them all for him it is impossible to live life as anything but a slave. This mindless submission and surrender of free will is also found in socialism’s psychotic, retarded little brother: Islamism.
June 13th, 2006 at 8:27 amNilbog,
I find that I must dissent with your dissent:
To WANT heaven-on-earth isn’t dumb - in fact, it is a testimony to a very basic desire to see everyone taken care of & happy.
What’s DUMB is the socialist ‘answer’ to making that happen. They all envision their world as manifesting in some Trekkian universe, where everyone has enough, no one is without and if someone, somewhere is found in a poor condition their salvation is as simple as “join us.”
The problem there is that this Roddenberry-esque ‘reality’ depends heavily on both technologies that are fully capable of sustaining the nuts-and-bolts of the “basic needs” department AND the the willingness of all people to largely hand themselves over to be ‘cared for’.
The problems, then, are both that those Federation technologies DO NOT exist AND that many, many people are unwilling to hand themselves over and would be distrustful of any existing system of government (or product of same, of which are we all) “getting it right” in the first place (to jump metaphors: “they meddle”).
The Kos kids and their ilk, lacking the technologies and universal agreement of others to be “looked after” - but also lacking the skills/education/patience to CREATE those technologies in order to FOSTER that agreement - have instead adopted the groupthink-push-everyone-into-the-mold-whether-they-like/can-sustain-it-or-not mentality: “Everything will be fine if you just SUBMIT TO MY WILL”.
WANTING heaven-on-earth is fine…they just can’t/won’t commit to the REAL path to MAKE it happen, and hate anyone ‘else’ who realizes that THEY can’t either, and instead decides to get on with this ‘reality’ thing.
Talk about a ramble - going to work now.
- MuscleDaddy
June 13th, 2006 at 9:31 amEmperor,
There’s another thing, a simple yet devastating set of truths we individualists keep in our arsenal:
Words mean things and words have consequences.
In the “deconstructionist” line of thought that permeates Leftist thinking, meaning itself is under attack - my view is as good as yours simply because I chose it.
I’m sure it’s fun, living in a world where white is as good as black, up and down can be reversed at will and E=mc^2 can be dismissed for being “sexist.” Once you’ve reached that stage, Utopia isn’t far away - all you have to do is click your heels three times.
Then we rationalists always come along and piss in the soup. We question, we argue, we apply (gasp!) logic, we disagree, call each other names and despite the gravity of it all, we shake hands, hoist a couple and stay friends. (Worse, we even insist on such outmoded things as manners and politeness because many of us are armed. )
That’s why they hate us. They’re “progressive” and think they’re an unstoppable force of nature.
We remain the unmovable object.
June 13th, 2006 at 9:56 amI’m glad you dissent, nilbog, as a matter of fact I’d be worried if nobody did.
However, I think that we agree more than we disagree, most likely because of my choice of words being less than optimal. When I say that there’s nothing dumb in wanting the impossible (well, “wishing for” would probably be a better term) I mean just that. To subsequently waste everybody’s time by trying to turn that fond and idealistic wish into reality is, on the other hand, not merely dumb, it’s downright dangerous as you so correctly point out. It’s dumb because it’s never going to happen, and it’s dangerous because attempting to achieve the unachievable invariably means that you’ll have to force people into being something they not only aren’t, but cannot ever be.
I see nothing wrong in wishing that gravity could be suspended at will, as long as nobody tries to pass a bill saying that airliners have to cut off their engines at cruising altitude to save fuel.
The former is just wishful thinking, the latter is socialism.
June 13th, 2006 at 10:04 amMuscleDaddy,
June 13th, 2006 at 10:10 amRespectfully, I offer the following: Heaven is a state of perfection. Mankind is imperfect and not perfectable. Any society, however technologically advanced, can never entirely overcome this fundamental flaw. Good, better and even great civilizations and cultures can be made by men on Earth. Heaven cannot. Ever.
This does not mean we ought not to do the work (often dirty though it is) to make the world a better place. It is our moral duty to do so. But I think it is important to maintain a certain humility that perfection is impossible in this world. It is the hubris and unimpeachable confidence in perfectablility that leads men to justify the gulag and other greater horrors.
Besides, I think you should see the film “Serenity” (based on the series “Firefly”) for an accurate portrayal of what a real Federation of Planets would look like.
To get to heaven, you have to try to be good all the time, ask forgiveness when you inevitably fall far short of this impossible goal, and lastly, die. I’m not willing to be so proactive on that last requirement, so I’ll settle for making the world a better place until my entry into either heaven or hell is mandatory.
Speaking of this, check out this photo from yearlyKos - this sums it all up.
June 13th, 2006 at 11:28 amHmmm, maybe you should be here, instead about commenting on it from afar.
June 13th, 2006 at 12:08 pmHmm pretty good points, for the most part. I agree with a lot of what you say. I don’t agree that utopia is impossible, but I definately agree that libtards (or for that matter, any humans) are never going to be able to create it. It could happen but it won’t happen as long as human nature is what it is. And changing that will require an act of God.
Not entirely on point, but even the sci fi writers (well the good ones at least) realize that utopia isn’t going to happen while human nature is unchanged. Which is why I was so absolutely PISSED off at Azimov at the way he ended his Foundation series. He should have known better. But lots of others have recognized reality and dreamed of making things “better” without giving up the reality that “perfect” is impossible. I’ve been rather addicted to David Weber’s Honor Harrington series recently, so I’ll use that as an example. Even in a world where the standard of living is so incredibly high that they basically resemble the America of today (except that there are no true poor because thankfully Queen Elizabeth’s government wasn’t stupid enough to allow a generational welfare system) in comparison to the China of 100 years ago, there are still libtards who want to “help out” the “poor” among their fellows, “conservatives” who are really more of reactionary idiots who want to “go back” to a system that never really existed, and just about everything else in between. I was pretty annoyed with Weber when I started reading the series, because at first he just named the parties without actually delving much into the politics of the “centrists” and “crown loyalists” and so I was annoyed that the only political party he made out to be bigger idiots than his “liberals” were his “conservatives”. Well it turns out better than I expected later on, for those who haven’t read the series I won’t spoil anything else. But his understanding of politics and human nature is far greater than I originally gave him credit for. Sometimes I wonder if he started out just writing a sci fi book and ended up writing a very smart political treatise that he had to stretch over multiple books because it’s so heavily wrapped in allegory and fun. Well not really. But there is a lot of intelligent insight in there, including the idea that people can disagree and then eventually come to a compromise without having to silence the opposition completely. Unfortunately sometimes the worst of the lot has to be completely discredited in every way first. Such is the reality of today, with the libtards. Until they are as thoroughly discredited and shown for the absolute incompetent airheaded fools they are as Weber’s “conservatives” become in his later books, real discussion and progress are stalled by having to protect even the right to debate and the right to religious freedom and other such stuff from the pure evil of the far left.
RH
June 13th, 2006 at 12:14 pmMan, you give me a food synthesizer and a holodeck and I will show you how depraved one individual can get.
June 13th, 2006 at 12:17 pmOh, sorry. Didn’t realize we were having an “intellectual” conversation.
My bad.
Carry on.
*wanders out of room dreaming of holodeck scenarios*
June 13th, 2006 at 12:19 pmNilbog,
The metaphor-shift on ‘meddling’ was from Serenity - it was what River said to the teacher about unification in the first ‘dream sequence.’
Again - and I guess it sounds like I’m in line w/Misha - there’s nothing wrong with WANTING a utopia, but real conditions won’t even reasonably allow the attempt, a fact over which the Kos-sters continue to stick their fingers in their ears and scream LA-LA-LA - except when they occasionally pause to blame Bush for their failure.
Ranger6 - yeah.
- MuscleDaddy
June 13th, 2006 at 12:32 pmIs it possible that everyone at the Kotzfest this year was a right-wing infiltrator?
Maybe that’s why it seemed so dull? If everyone there was one of us, trying to ‘blend in’ with the Kossacks… You can see the result, can’t you?
June 13th, 2006 at 12:59 pmnilbog: Ironic that you mention Firefly/Serinity. I’ve watched the first 8 episodes in the last 2 days (amazing what you can do when you put off homework) and am working on the rest of it.
As for the general discussion, I am one of those young “idealists,” but I like to think I’m rather grounded. I just aspire to make my little corner of the world as good as possible. If I can get married, raise my kids in a moral fashion, and die with the world better than I left it, I will consider my life a success.
The university I am attending, thankfully, is NOT a stronghold of liberalism. An engineering school in the middle of Missouri is a great place to be a conservative, as even the leiberals will *gasp* get into a reasoned debate on many issues (abortion, which most debates tend to end up on; foreign affairs; gun control; etc).
June 13th, 2006 at 1:16 pmAs for flying without growing wings vs building a plane…. you might want to look at this link.
http://randomdude.com/blog/threads/2003-Batwings
That’s the good pic, and the fellow has a link to a Brit article that has somewhat more detail.
June 13th, 2006 at 4:33 pmOf course, it’s kinda important to live in the REAL WORLD, and as we all know, libs and lefties are far REMOVED from this, and their solution is “redistribution of wealth” and “equality” (at other peoples’ expense) - seems to me that WE of the Rottweilerian persuasion tend to be more REAL than those utopian lefties who still think communism and socialism is the answer and oughta be tried one more time……………..
June 13th, 2006 at 6:56 pmI have been at this conference for the past two days now, and it isn’t anything like the way you are describing it. It might be boring to you BECAUSE everyone tends pretty much agree.
I was here when Hillary got booed though, and frankly it wasn’t all that surprising. The ONLY thing that really makes her (and Bill for that matter) appear “Liberal” is when you compare them with the far right like yourselves. In reality, they are just a milder version of Corporatists, part of the DLC wing of the Democratic Party. There is a lot of animosity towards Hillary within the party rank and file, and if today were any indication, she might have an uphill battle within the party ranks if she does decide to run in ‘08.
It is too early to tell, but I suspect that the Democrat nomination is going to be a surprise pick, not one of the “usual suspects”.
June 14th, 2006 at 2:10 amWell, I would’ve loved to be there if I could, but I couldn’t.
You’re right, however, that I would’ve probably been bored because of the universal agreement in the church of liberalism. Bored silly, more like, and bothered by acid flashbacks to when I used to be one of the anointed few.
Where are the searching questions? Where are the “I agree with what I think you’re trying to say, but I’m not so sure that your proposal is the optimal path to pursue” questions? Where are the “give me a break, that’s just fucking nuts” exclamations. Nowhere, unless they haven’t been reported. And I’d be bloody surprised if there’d been any at all.
It’s a knitting club, that’s all. It’s a congregation gathered to worship the anointed word from on high. It’s a band of insecure dimwits trying to find a group of people who won’t question them or their beliefs. It’s a fucking pacifier, a rattle, a safety blanket.
It. Is. Boring.
I’ve been to more of those gatherings than I care to remember back in my youthful idiocy when I thought that my worth in life was measured by how good I was at not getting an ideological wedgie.
Damn, when I found out that you could go absolutely apeshit on somebody’s cherished beliefs, tear at them and be torn to shreds in return, let it all hang out and STILL have a beer with them while we agreed to disagree, now THAT was liberating. And I’m talking about good friends here, not people that I generally don’t associate with. I love being challenged, I love the merciless war of words and ideas, but I never, not ONCE, got that from the Holy Church of Liberalism.
There are exceptions, such as yourself, but you’re so rare as to be best described as a statistical outlier. I wish to G-d there were more of you, because that would be truly fun, challenging and very educational. Heck, I might even have to revise some of my own ideas for the umpteenth time as a result.
You’re the exception, Dave, not the rule.
You can’t dismiss it as “just because everybody here generally agree”, because I’ve been at several meets now with people that agreed quite a bit more than just “generally”, and we STILL couldn’t go on for more than a few minutes without somebody starting an argument. Because we’re individualists. Nothing is sacred.
June 14th, 2006 at 2:44 amThe purpose of the conference was to pull us together, not squabble amongst ourselves. Conservatives can afford to do that right now since they are the party in power. Liberals are trying to pull themselves together, finding those areas where we do agree.
The Democrat Party is more diverse than the Republican Party. They aren’t as close knit as you’d like to make them out to be. Republicans benefit from that because at times they are able to siphon off some groups of Democrat votes on certain hot-button issues such as abortion, gay marriage, G-d, and guns. But the rest of their philosophy lean to the left on most other issues.
But I think you are going to find that your hot-button issues are not going to be as big of a pull for many of these “nomad” Democrats this time. There are far greater issues that are out there, and judging by the polls, the people are starting to wake up and say “enough is enough”.
June 14th, 2006 at 11:54 amNow that I think about it, I can see where the greenhorn, inexperienced liberal might get the idea that dissent is prohibited on the right. This is the reason: we debate. That’s what we do.
The aforementioned fresh-faced young liberal assumes that “debate” goes like it does within Yearly Kos: where no one is allowed to hurt someone else’s feelings via the socialism of political correctness. They assume that any kind of heated debate, any kind of difference of view automatically means stifling of dissent. I think this ties in with their lack of understanding regarding the First Amendment, which you analysed up at the top.
What escapes the garden-variety liberal is that the kind of debate is actually an unspoken agreement between conservatives of the open indulging of the principles of free speech. That, if you (in the general sense) believe that spacemen live on Mars and I tell you you’re an effin’ loony, it does not automatically mean I want you dragged off by government censors.
Nonsense. It didn’t happen even when the Democrats were in power. Dissent isn’t permitted because it’s not politically correct. Someone might be offended, and we can’t have that. (Unless it’s a conservative Christian, and then it’s pink sugar heart love. Or a rite of passage or something)
Witness DU: it was created for the very debate that you seem to be saying happens. So..why doesn’t it? Why does the average DUer, when daring to attempt a debate, get shouted down with “lousy freeper troll!” for stepping out of line? Sure, DU is an extremist cesspool echo chamber, but it wasn’t supposed to become one. It was created for liberal debate…and then we discovered that liberals can’t debate among themselves. So, in that vacuum, DU became the laughingstock we know it as today.
June 16th, 2006 at 7:12 am[…] …………………………………………………… […]
July 12th, 2006 at 10:47 am