Comment by Emperor Darth Misha I

Oh, I’m sure the Japanese won’t mind at all if we dump 130,000 troops and a substantial part of our Air Force there.

And talk about Rapid Reaction Force! Only about 4,000 miles as the crow flies. Across China and Iran.

Comment by Mrs. M

But don’t you see?? Once we bug out of Iraq and “occupy” Okinawa and Iraq decends back into the fifth level of hell…he can calm his guilty concience once again by demanding we retreat from Okinawa. It’ll be a quagmire there ya know.

Comment by LC Moriarty

On reflection, maybe Murtha isn’t as crazy as I thought. Consider:

We withdraw all of our troops from around the world to US soil. (If there’s no sense having “boots on the ground” in Iraq what’s the value of having them in Okinawa?)

We fight the WoT exclusively with air power (which is what he seems to be saying.)

Rather than risk bomber crews, we create pilotless aircraft.

Since jet engines are slow, we equip these aircraft with rocket engines.

We equip them with nuclear warheads (since that’s the most efficient way of bombing an enemy) and base them out of places like North Dakota. (We could even put some on submarines!)

We give them a catchy name. Something like “It Can Bomb Mecca,” and we use them, actively, as the centerpiece of our military and political dealings from now on.

You know, he may be a deranged, opportunistic, treasonous, senile lying scumbag of a politician…

But maybe he’s on to something.

Comment by juandos

Well Murtha don’t you know has some better ideas on what to do with the money that we as a nation are supposedly wasting taking down the terrorist towel head….

Note the following passage from this most recent Sunday’s Meet the Press in which socialism is apparently the answer:

MR. RUSSERT: The president says, “stay the course,” that within the next six months, Iraq will be secure under the direction of the new prime minister, and to do anything less now would be irresponsible.

REP. MURTHA: Well, “stay the course” is “stay and pay.” This is the thing that has worried me right along. We’re spending $8 billion dollars a month, $300 million dollars a day. And to give you some perspective of what that means, Gates said, “I’m going to quit the corporation, or I’m going to—less time with the corporation.” Well, you weigh $30 billion dollars. That’s four months of the cost of this war. This port security, if you want to spend more money, it’d would take 47 years the way we’re spending it. Education, the No Child Left Behind, a couple months of the war would pay for that. Whose going to, whose going to pay for this down the road? Our children and grandchildren are paying for this war. And then you have the, the, the emotional strain, the, the, the people who are being hurt.

On the floor the other day, you may have heard this, one fellow says, “We’re fighting this war.” We’re not fighting this war. One percent of the American people, these young men and women are fighting this war, with heavy packs, with 70 pounds of equipment, with helmets on in 130 degrees. That’s who’s fighting this war. And they say “stay the course.” There’s no plan. You open up this plan for victory, there’s no plan there. It’s just “stay the course.” That doesn’t solve any problem.

It’s worse today than it was six months ago when I spoke out initially. When I spoke out, the garbage wasn’t being collected, oil production below pre-war level—all those things indicated to me we weren’t winning this, and it’s the same today, if not worse. Anbar Province. There’s not one project been done in Anbar Province. Two million people live there. They have no water at all, no oil production, they have no electricity at all in that province where is the heartland of the defense. The first six months we went in there, no—there—not a shot was fired, so it shows you how it’s changed.

It’s getting worse. That’s why I feel so strongly. All of us know how important it is internationally to win this war. We know how important. We import 20 million barrels of oil a day—we use 20 million barrels of oil. We know how important, international community. But we’re doing it all ourself, and there’s no plan that makes sense. We need to have more international cooperation. We need to redeploy our troops, the periphery. What happened with Zarqawi could have been done from the out—it was done from the outside. Our planes went in from the outside. So there’s no reason in the world that they can’t redeploy the troops. They’ve become the targets, they’re caught in the civil war, and I feel very strongly about it.

Comment by Infidel River Rat

Why doesn’t somebody ask that miserable, sell-out lyingassed bag of shit “Mr. Murtha, what does it feel like tosell your soul for a few poll points? How does it feel to be nothing short of a total damned sellout and traitor?” in a damned press conference? I’m about to finish my tour and go stateside for good, and I’ll constantly tell everybody that he’s a LYING SAcK OF SHIT!

Comment by Son Of The Godfather

Senility is a sad, sad thing.

Comment by Beth* A.

I wonder when Murtha’s going to Iraq to address the troops he claims to care for.

Oh, he’s been - came across all supportive,and “I’m here for you guys! Keep up the good work!” (H/T -’One Marine’s View’ blog)

And then he came home and started selling them down the river.

Comment by SicSemperTyrannus

Ann Coulter in “Godless,” on Somalia:

“President Clinton, out of habit, pulled out without finishing.”

Trackback by Common Folk Using Common Sense

Have We Finally Discovered The Cause Of This Man’s Madness?…

Is John Murtha, D-Pa., a member of an al Qaeda sleeper cell?

……

Comment by SoCalOilMan

Whose going to, whose going to pay for this down the road? Our children and grandchildren are paying for this war.

He’s right, however he’s not talking about whether it would be less expensive now, or 5 or 10 years from now when it will still be there.

My son is just waiting for his diploma in 6 months to enlist, because he is waiting to serve for a cause that he believes in. He believes the cost will be much less now rather than later, but we will have to pay eventually.

And then you have the, the, the emotional strain, the, the, the people who are being hurt.

As opposed to the “hurt and strain” they will feel under a taliban rule.

Comment by RobertHuntingdon

Update… seems she is running as a Republican, though I found that hard to find on her site. Perhaps she’s running in a district that has a heavy concentration of idiotarians who might forget what a punter Murtha is if they realize his challenger is an EEEEVILLL Republican. Or perhaps she just figured it was obvious, since Murtha is a dhimmirat, although that isn’t as guaranteed since independents have a much harder time winning (unfortunately).

Anyway, I still hope she wins. Even if she turns out in the end to be a RINO, she still couldn’t possibly be worse than Murtha.

RH

Comment by LC Jon, Imperial Hunter

why aren’t yawl upset with those who control the Iraq (fiasco) policy ???

Maybe becuase we don’t think winning is a “fiasco”, though we’re well aware that you do.

Success in Iraq spells doom for the traitorous scum of the American left. When we finish with the sandlice, we’re coming for you. Shitforbrains.

Comment by Sir Christopher

caller to Limbaugh just made a great comment:

“just because somebody is a Marine does not mean everything that comes out of their mouths is gold. Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine, so was Jack Murtha”

Comment by Kristopher

And talk about Rapid Reaction Force! Only about 4,000 miles as the crow flies. Across China and Iran.

This might be feasable … provided we nuke a clear path through China and Iran to get there.

Comment by LC Ranger 6

doublestupid, do you think anyone here actually gives a shit what you think or have to say?

Your pathetic Evil bushhaliburtoncheneyrovian war for profit memes are the delusions of ignorant pissants that can’t think for themselves.

We

Don’t

Care.

Now go fuck your sister and further muddy the gene pool you’ve obviously come from.

Comment by CiSSnarl5.7

*sigh* Double Syphillis …

I live in the Middle East so my internet can be dreadfully slow…but even so it took me Exactly 9 key strokes and 3 Mouse Clicks to find out what John Murtha’s role in the Congress of the United States… and that is as follows…

Subcommittee on Defense, which Congressman Murtha is currently the ranking Member and former Chairman.”>House Appropriations Committee Web site

Total time it took to shoot your dumb ass assertion that John Murtha has “no control over Iraq Policy” full of holes…22 seconds…

Now can you please… either shut the fuck up or at least do some research before you open that yap of yours and spew the incoherent musings of a rapid poodle?

Comment by CiSSnarl5.7

OK I was already there so I donned my hip waders and said l”ets wade around in the kiddie cess pool of John Murtha’s little website shall we”?

Lo and Behold..what do I find?

Links to brandy-new articles about DOD contractS being awarded in his district..

June 2 2006 Lockheed Martin awards 1 Million VH-71 to …
June 2 2006 Raytheon selects Kuchera for programs
June 2 2006 Kuchera gets Northrop Contracts
June 5 2006 U.S. Air Force and U of P open clinic

See the common link..every one of those names are well known Defense Contractors or Military projects…Interseting no?

Just like any pork bellied congress critter Ol Johhny Boy got no qualms about sucking down as much DOD money as he can finagle…

But he’ll claim that our Marines murdered in “Cold Blood” sans benifit of trial…

John I have come to the firm conclusion your nothing more then a charlatan …a drag queen in a bad dress… and a hypocritical Cock Smoker…You rat fuck.

Comment by LC Ranger 6

ATTN: doublestupid [#31]

See #30.

FOAD

Comment by JannyMae

So, we have John hypocrite Murtha procuring defense contracts so that his district, “profits from the war,” and this doublestupid asshat is talking about Irey? And, not only is John Murtha procuring these contracts for his district, out of the other side of his mouth he is voicing his concern about, “the cost of the war!”

You just can’t make this shit up…

Comment by CiSSnarl5.7

So, we have John hypocrite Murtha procuring defense contracts so that his district, “profits from the war,” and this doublestupid asshat is talking about Irey? And, not only is John Murtha procuring these contracts for his district, out of the other side of his mouth he is voicing his concern about, “the cost of the war!”

His success in those DOD endeavours will be what gets his dumb ass another seat in Congress come election time…JOBS….Since the collapse of the Steel industry in that region both PA and OH voters are notorious for “voting thier wallets”

Comment by LC Wes, Imperial Mohel

Why aren’t yawl (sic) upset with those who control the Iraq (fiasco) policy?

From the new essay “The Party of Retreat and Defeat,” by Peter Collier and David Horowitz:

…And the result of these attitudes can be seen in the way the Democrats and their media allies have conducted themselves throughout. For the Bush administration and the coalition troops in Iraq the battles have been for Baghdad, Fallujah, Mosul and Basra, all engagements with the enemy in the field. For the Democrats and their media allies it has been Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, Haditha and Niger, all behind-the-lines battles against our troops and their commander-in-chief. For the Bush administration the chief prize has been Zarqawi, the beheader himself. For the Democrats it has been Scooter Libby. The Bush administration barely missed getting Osama bin Laden; the Democrats barely missed getting Karl Rove. The Bush administration’s strategy is to defeat the forces of terror. The Democrats are conducting psychological warfare aimed at American morale – the decisive factor in war.

It is hard not to conclude that the Democrats want America to be defeated in Iraq and that it is not only their electoral opportunism but their worldview that demands it. This shows how different the Democratic Party is from what it was a generation ago when its stalwarts assumed the moral leadership in the Cold War against the Soviet Union. The current Democrats bear no kinship to the John F. Kennedys, Hubert Humphreys and Scoop Jacksons who saw this prior conflict in the same black and white terms as Bush does the present conflict, and whose disheartening moments were far bleaker than the setbacks the U.S. has experienced in Iraq. Such men would be read out of the Democratic Party today and reviled as yahoos for their patriotism.

The worldview of the current Democrats was created generation ago in the first war that America lost on the home front, and it hasn’t changed since. Notwithstanding the Democrats’ timorous, and reluctant — and quickly retracted — support for the war in Iraq, and notwithstanding the disingenuous insistence that “anti-war” activists also “support our troops,” the leaders of the Democratic Party left – Kennedy, Kerry, Carter, Gore, Pelosi, Murtha — looked on the Iraq War from its onset as another Vietnam. Whenever there is the possibility of the use of American power against an enemy that can fight back, it is always for the Democrats a quarter past Tet.

Go read it all. Especially you, dDouble sStandards.

Trackback by Barking Moonbat Early Warning System

Murtha Math…

Try as hard as I can, I just cannot figure out where John Murtha is coming from. I realize he is a decorated war veteran but his recent comments and actions only serve to convince me he is suffering from some form of dementia or early senility. First h…

Comment by theDdoubleSstandard

ATTN: Comment # 41 by JannyMae

here is my challenge to you: please look through my prior comments and find one (yeah, only one) factual error

it seems that when some can’t argue with facts then they argue with ad hominems

Comment by LC Wes, Imperial Mohel

here is my challenge to you: please look through my prior comments and find one (yeah, only one) factual error

Well, for starters there aren’t any facts to speak of in your postings; only defeatism and whining.

And speaking of defeatism:

like i said yesterday, in this Bush-Bizarro world, if the number of terrorist attacks goes up that indicates that the Bush & Co. strategy is workin’ !!!

Well, for starters we haven’t had a meaningful terrorist attack on our soil since 9/11, so the Bushies must be doing something right. And what anti-terror do you recommend we ought to be doing, other than cutting, running and surrendering? Those seem to be the only options the Democratic Party (excepting Joe Lieberman) can come up with…and they’re also the only strategies you’ve shown us, as well.

And I notice you didn’t finish the quote from the Collier and Horowitz essay, to wit: “The Democrats are conducting psychological warfare aimed at American morale – the decisive factor in war. It is hard not to conclude that the Democrats want America to be defeated in Iraq and that it is not only their electoral opportunism but their worldview that demands it.”

So is that your purpose in wasting the Emperor’s bandwith - defeatist psy-ops against your own countrymen?

And please don’t start whining about my “questioning your patriotism.” Your lack of patriotism - or any pride in America whatsoever - is beyond question.

Comment by JannyMae

So, it sounds like little DoubleStupid is attempting to make the argument that, because the Republicans are in the majority in the house, that it renders House Democrats completely powerless?

What a maroon.

Comment by CiSSnarl5.7

So, it sounds like little DoubleStupid is attempting to make the argument that, because the Republicans are in the majority in the house, that it renders House Democrats completely powerless?

In his alterNAIVE reality…yes that is how things work because the GOP has control of both the house and the Senate in numbers the Donks can’t do a thing to stop them…there is no fillibuster…no ability to convince other GOP members to cross the aisle AKA RHINOS…OH my GOD..Carl Rove is the anti-christ !! DIeBold Machines are cheating…it’s a NAZI State…Freedom of Speech is DEAD..Run …Run for the Hills…the Sky is falling…SNORT!

He double pass me some of that shit your smoking man…I need a good giggle…I just “dont inhale”..wink wink nudge nudge..

Comment by LaVache

Just a seasonal safety reminder; It’s Summertime and school is out, so watch out for kids playing in the street

(and their teachers trolling on the web)

Happens every year this time, drive and post carefully!

Comment by fraydog

# 25.

Uh, do the words “Abscam unindited co-conspirator” mean anything to you? Not to mention the contracts that just ended up in his district… GMAFB.

Haben wir dieses troll bereits verboten?

Comment by theDdoubleSstandard

ATTN: FrayDog and JannyMae

i never contested the fact that Murtha was bringin’ the bacon home to his district - like all Congresscritters

is was simply pointin’ out, in an earlier comment, that Diana Irey may be personally profiting from this war

Comment by juandos

Hey RobH (#11), consider looking at the Gateway Pundit’s site…

Local lad, very sharp has been covering this seditious swine Murtha quite intently… Here’s a few links…

Murtha Pins Down Re-Election Themes

Now, Murtha Blames Marines for Mass Slaughter of Innocent Iraqis!

Is Murtha in Trouble at Home?

Vets4Irey.com

So much easier on the eyes than Murtha is…:lol:

Comment by LC Jackboot

DS-

how many times are you gonna use the word “insanity”? so, i ask you the following: “what have i said that is insane?”

As many times as you continue to spew your mind via your keyboard. Here I’ll offer some alternatives, each of which apply to your thoughts: balmy, bananas, batty, crackbrained, cracked, crazed, crazy, cuckoo, daffy, daft, demented, deranged, loco, loony. Feel Better Now? Good?

maybe you are right (doubt it!), that the Dems(Dumbs) have blocked the Republican controlled House. maybe you can site me Iraq policy proposed by the Reps that has been blocked by the Democrats. hurry up ’cause i am waitin’ for your reply

There you fuckin’ go..again….this ain’t an RNC blog. Please try, Please…to drop the Republican vs. Democrap bit. We could give a good shit about anything re: Foreign Policy proposed or blathered from either House or Senate. That’s the business of the Executive Branch. Maybe you should take the course in constitutional power and authority.

so, i ask you a similiar question: “find one fact in any of my prior posts that is errant”. hurry up ’cause i am waitin’ for your reply

No you carefully avoid facts, instead chosing to produce straw-dogs and clintonesque deflections. The few factual information you’ve produced thus far has been built on straw-dogs and conspiracy assumptions. Besides my friend, R6 already showed your ass in #50.

maybe you are right (doubt it !), that the Dems(Dumbs) have blocked the Rep. controlled House. maybe you can site me Iraq policy proposed by the Reps that has been blocked by the Dems. hurry up ’cause i am waitin’ for your reply

Assmunch- Whatcha do, cut and paste twice? See ATTN: Comment #51. Folks, we have a NYT op-ed page troll in our midst. Same level of competent editorial skills.

“I notice that you conveniently ignored my post #33, wherein I illustrate Murtha’s and thereby YOUR hypocrisy”

..mheh….Post #33 is MINE you asshole. Now I know you work for Little Pinch-maybe you’re his love child spawn with Helen Thomas.

I think our troll is in a flat spin and can’t figure out if he/she/it needs right of left rudder as the altimeter winds down.

Anzeige vom Hauptsitz-Personal: Kaiser, DS überfällt Diskussionen dennoch wieder. Nicht Sie beginnt die Musik und gibt ihm einen Schlag bereits? Das Stormtroopers sind bereit zur Tätigkeit und für das Behandeln des Todes zu den idiotarian Hunden hungrig.

Comment by Sir Christopher

DS, while i appreciate your lack of vitriol, the ensuing “arguments” you make are about as interesting as paint drying. For such meticulous citation and addressing responses, you are really not saying anything, nor are you even coming CLOSE to swaying anybody here; which really is the purpose of such exchanges, no?

did MoveOn.Org send you here in the same way Fatah sends mentally challenged teenagers into Israel to detonate suicide belts? Your argument belt misfired.

Comment by juandos

theDdoubleSstandard (#62) whines petulantly: “i prefer to respond to facts and logic not insults“…:lol:

Well since you have yet to post ANY facts whatsoever your previous attempts at swaying the crowed with your delusional world view is such an abysmal failure one can only assume that facts either don’t mean a thing to you or you ignore the facts since they tend to undercut your rant…

Keep trying lad, the entertainment value for me at least is priceless… Yet don’t forget the warning Misha gave you…:-D

Comment by Sir Christopher

don’t confuse vitriol and hyperbole

Comment by JannyMae

Ranking Democrat John Murtha

has absolutely no influence whatsoever on how this money is spent? None, whatsoever?

Comment by theDdoubleSstandard

ATTN: Comment # 68 by JannyMae

Now, please provide evidence that there has been disagreement on Iraq policy by the Congressional Democrats, whereby the EEEEVIL majority Republicans have blocked them from having, “influence,” on Iraq policy.

we are now entering the twilight zone.

in response to someone’s earlier post, i made the claim that Murtha has no legislative power over the US’s Iraq War policy.

now you seem to be sayin’ that there is no disagreement on Iraq policy, etc ???

isn’t this new line of thinking “a 180″ to your previous position (i.e. the Dems are against the war, etc., etc. etc.)

sorry, but you ain’t makin’ no sense

the question is “does Murtha have legislative power?” and if so, how has he used it to affect the Iraq War policy

i claim 1) that ’cause he is in the minority party; he has no power and 2) there has not been a single instance of a Murtha sponsored Iraq legislation that has passed through Congress

Put up, or shut up. Prove your allegation that John Murtha has no influence on Iraq policy, despite being on the Subcommittee for defense

i can’t prove a negative. i can’t prove that something that doesn’t exist, does exist.

fact - there is no Congressionally passed Murtha sponsored legislation that has changed the Iraq War policy

Comment by juandos

Representative Pink Hawk Spits Out 9 Lies in 90 Seconds…

Comment by SoCalOilMan

we are now entering the twilight zone.

Yes we have! While amusing to watch, I’m still waiting for this asshat to respond with a (any) factual argument since he agreed with me in #29.
Perhaps some advice, ignore each attach and just focus on one point and go for the kill shot. You are in enemy territory and outnumbered.

Comment by JannyMae

Actually, the topic of the thread, Murtha’s spewing of stupidity, was thrown aside in favor of an incredibly stupid statement made by our cute, little troll.

From what I can ascertain, there is no debate. Murtha has been conceded, by all, to be a senile old fool who shouldn’t be getting the amount of, “press,” he is.

Comment by MCaN

Oh, ok. Thanks! [wanders off in search of shiny objects, or video games, whichever happens to show up first]

Comment by juandos

What a terrible disservice to the color Pink.

Just…breaks my heart……

Yes a most definite disservice to the color pink…

Now what are the fairies going to use at their spring parties?

Comment by Sir Christopher

DS, wanna see a real, American, Patriotic “protest”?

Comment by Emperor Darth Misha I

i prefer to respond to facts and logic not insults

And I prefer to not respond to obvious trolls.

Listen, DS, and listen very carefully: Your argument that the minority party is wholly irrelevant might be considered interesting if it wasn’t so mindnumbingly inane. I suggest you find a post devoted to the subject in which to spew your blather.

Don’t see one?

Start a blog and make one, because you’re not hijacking this one.

And if I have to once more find a thread polluted beyond all recognition with your wildly off-topic one-liners and pathetic attempts at deflection…

You know the drill.

That’s TWO!

Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

Jumpin’ Jiminy Jeebus Krispy Kreme On A Log Flume Ride!!!

DoubleDoseOfStupid really is like a retarded puppy, isn’t he? No matter how many times you shove his nose in shit, he just doesn’t grok the concept that he’s not supposed to be taking steaming, putrid dumps on the carpet.

I’ll bet he’s still trying to figure out that butterfly ballot in his Palm Beach County rubber room.

Comment by RobH

Oh, wanted to paste a little bit of the Murthman’s record from the opponent website:

Do you know this man?

Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

Excellent Sire, I was simply amazed at your forbearance. That’s all it is, an inane, futile attempt to distort and most of all, to direct topics of discussion. Get a life takes on a whole new meaning here…Good old obsession, a persistent, irrational fixation on a given creature, concept or object…now does this remind anybody here of somebody? Naaah, didn’t think so……A perverse form of flattery, ture. But if one shits on the carpet one tme to many, they get flushed…..

Comment by LC Jon, Imperial Hunter

A careful and accurate translation of the Commandment “Thou Shalt Not Kill” will reveal the caveat, “Unless Thou Hast A Very Good Reason.”

The defense of ones self (you owe your death to no murderer, rapist, thief or conqueror for any reason) is imperative in your relationship to the Creator who gave you Life; nor must you suffer or allow the killing of your loved ones (it is your duty to protect them); and the same is as true for your nation, especially THIS nation, the like of which has never been seen in the entire history of humankind and in which the Liberty, Dignity and SOVEREIGNTY of the Individual are Paramount in Philosophy and by Law.

So…. Why are we, exactly, attempting to talk sense to traitors and their tools, like the current example, dDoubledDipshit?

Traitor, rifle, bullet… some dissassembly required.

Comment by LC Jon, Imperial Hunter

Hey Dog, good to talk with you again.

I freely and gleefully cribbed my “reading” of the Commandment from the good Colonel, Jeff Cooper, whose take on it that is. I think you’ll agre that the meaning is the same– one must have a very good reason to take a “human” life.

TYhe traitor left and media fifth column have provided us with those reasons, wouldn’t you say?

Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

a lotta people are postin’ comment here and i can’t respond to them all. if you have a question for me then please say it and i will respectfully and hopefully promptly reply

DoubleShithead, they’re not here for you to reply to.  They’re here so the rest of us can point at you and laugh.

most of this weblog’s threads consist primarily of vitriol

NAWWWWWWWWW!!!!!  Really?  Shocked, shocked  am I to hear of this!!!

Comment by Sir Christopher

Hundredth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Comment by Clarion

DS:

I think I see what you’re trying to say, that Vietnam was lost due to the incompetence of the military, and I for one appreciate seeing someone on the opposite side who is willing to document their words and back it up with links.

Polls are a stupid thing to base foreign policy on, though. They say that there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. If you’d ever studied statistics, you’d know that your sample demographic, your sample size, and even the timing of the poll can skew results so thoroughly as to make them utterly meaningless. Don’t throw polls around here as proof that you’re right — I consider polls (no matter which side they skew towards) to mean precisely jack and shit unless they are so overwhelming and the demographics and sample size are posted.

But I digress. Back to the issue of Vietnam. While that may or may not be true, and I am not enough of a Vietnam scholar to comment in either direction, one thing I can tell you for absofuckinglutely sure is that human nature is to attempt whatever the person thinks they can get away with, for no other reason than because they can.

Osama bin Laden has said straight up in one of his comments that Somalia and the Black Hawk Down incident in Mogadishu was the inspiration to try 9/11. The scared-chicken reaction led him to think that he might get the US to pull out of the Middle East by attacking the homeland, and for my lights, that was probably the single stupidest and most destructive thing Clinton did in his eight years in office.

The moral of the story: If we cut and run now, regardless of what is happening, we will only encourage the fanatics to come after us again and discourage our allies from following us ever again. Such a chicken-wuss move would isolate us politically and leave us with more enemies than we can handle. We have to stay the course — for our sake, for our allies’ sakes, and for the Iraqi’s sakes. We have to leave the message in the terrorists’ minds that we will not break, we will not run, and we will not fail, and that by crossing us, they have doomed themselves and their foolish and hateful ideology to the landfill of history.

We who are sitting in the middle of history being made (and make no mistake, we are) find it hard to see the long-term effects of our actions today. All we can do is do what we deem to be the right thing, here, now, today. We are not perfect — we never will be. But all it takes for the bastards to win is for us to sit by quietly and say “It’s their business, we cannot get involved.” And for the children for whom we have saved their parents, for the women who can go to school because of the actions of Coalition soldiers, for the public facilities that exist where none did before, we have made a difference. Talk to some boots on the ground instead of relying on polls. Ask the people who have been there and work with it every day what they see. And they’ll tell you, openly and honestly. And it just might teach you something.

Just remember, the man who says “I can” and the man who says “I can’t” are both right. What I think my fellow LC’s are trying to say is that we can, and as long as we believe, we can. It may sound hokey, but it is the honest truth.

Comment by theDdoubleSstandard

Comment by Clarion about me - the DdoubleSstandard

Oh, and LC’s, please lay off on the insults. You’re not being insulted, and I thought conservatives prided themselves on intelligent and civil debate instead of the ad hominem attack used by liberals. You guys are sounding like said liberals right now.

Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

…..it makes no damn difference whether or not you or anyone else agrees with why we’re in Iraq. The fact remains we are there and we’d better win while we are there. That does NOT mean pulling out.

The “war” has been over since 2003. We won. We deposed its leader, disolved its government and seized its land and resources. What we have now is an “occupation”, and that is the part where we will never win, if the people of the nation we are occupying don’t trust us or even want us there.

Check out the poll of 3000 Iraqis taken in March of 2006 by the International Republican Institute, and I draw your attention to page 40:

The vast majority of people (78 percent) trusted the Iraqi police and army versus a whopping one percent of the multinational forces (that is us, stupid Republicans) In fact, that is one percent multinational forces to six percent who trusted the insurgents! Six times more Iraqis trust the insurgency than they do us?

If that isn’t enough for you, perhaps you want to read a recent memo written by our Ambassador to Iraq to Condi Rice describing the conditions in Iraq — inside of the Green zone. Here are some of the highlights:

– “Personal safety depends on good relations with the ‘neighborhood’ governments, who barricade streets and ward off outsiders. The central government, our staff says, is not relevant; even local mukhtars have been displaced or coopted by militias. People no longer trust most neighbors.”

– One embassy employee had a brother-in-law kidnapped. Another received a death threat, and then fled the country with her family.

– Iraqi staff at the embassy, beginning in March and picking up in May, report “pervasive” harassment from Islamist and/or militia groups. Cuts in power and rising fuel prices “have diminished the quality of life.” Conditions vary but even upscale neighborhoods “have visibly deteriorated” and one of them is now described as a “ghost town.”

– Two of the three female Iraqis in the public affairs office reported stepped-up harassment since mid-May….”some groups are pushing women to cover even their face, a step not taken in Iran even at its most conservative.” One of the women is now wearing a full abaya after receiving direct threats.

– It has also become “dangerous” for men to wear shorts in public and “they no longer allow their children to play outside in shorts.” People who wear jeans in public have also come under attack.

– Embassy employees are held in such low esteem their work must remain a secret and they live with constant fear that their cover will be blown. Of nine staffers, only four have told their families where they work. They all plan for their possible abductions. No one takes home their cell phones as this gives them away. One employee said criticism of the U.S. had grown so severe that most of her family believes the U.S. “is punishing populations as Saddam did.”

– Since April, the “demeanor” of guards in the Green Zone has changed, becoming more “militia-like,” and some are now “taunting” embassy personnel or holding up their credentials and saying loudly that they work in the embassy: “Such information is a death sentence if overheard by the wrong people.” For this reason, some have asked for press instead of embassy credentials.

– “For at least six months, we have not been able to use any local staff members for translation at on-camera press events….We cannot call employees in on weekends or holidays without blowing their ‘cover.’”

– “More recently, we have begun shredding documents printed out that show local staff surnames. In March, a few staff members approached us to ask what provisions would we make for them if we evacuate.”

– The overall environment is one of “frayed social networks,” with frequent actual or perceived insults. None of this is helped by lack of electricity. “One colleague told us he feels ‘defeated’ by circumstances, citing his example of being unable to help his two-year-old son who has asthma and cannot sleep in stifling heat,” which is now reaching 115 degrees.

– “Another employee tell us that life outside the Green Zone has become ‘emotionally draining.’ He lives in a mostly Shiite area and claims to attend a funeral ‘every evening.’”

– Fuel lines have grown so long that one staffer spent 12 hours in line on his day off. “Employees all confirm that by the last week of May, they were getting one hour of power for every six hours without. … One staff member reported that a friend lives in a building that houses a new minister; within 24 hours of his appointment, her building had city power 24 hours a day.”

– The cable concludes that employees’ “personal fears are reinforcing divisive sectarian or ethnic channels, despite talk of reconciliation by officials.”

We are involved with the birth of an Islamic Republic far worse than that of Iran. This one is in the middle of a civil war, and we are nothing more than targets. We trott out the news that a low-level thug who claims to be Al Qaeda in Iraq has been killed, but he was almost infinitesimal in the real insurgency going on in Iraq.

Moving our military out of the immediate area is probably the best action to take. Keeping them where they are, only makes them targets and fuels the problems. It wasn’t our ground forces there that got rid of Zarqawi, it was an air strike originating in Kuwait, based on intelligence provided by Al Qaeda.

Comment by JannyMae

Chance, I was tempted to respond, and decided against it, also. I will say, though, that he kind of disproves his own point, by posting that pie graph.

If, and this is a big if, the people are correct in placing their confidence in the Iraq police and security forces to keep them safe, then, as we gradually withdraw our forces, we should be seeing a great improvement. Presuming that the Iraqis are more willing to, “out,” terrorist activities to the Iraqi forces, things should continue to improve, as they take over.

Comment by LC Ranger 6

Moving our military out of the immediate area is probably the best action to take. Keeping them where they are, only makes them targets and fuels the problems.

So just exactly when in a war are our troops NOT targets? That’s murthafucker logic “If we go home, there won’t be any terrorist”. Keep clicking those heels together DJ, you’ll get home someday.

It wasn’t our ground forces there that got rid of Zarqawi, it was an air strike originating in Kuwait, based on intelligence provided by Al Qaeda.

You get the Daily Double Dumbass Award™ for this one.

It was boots on the ground intelligence that allowed our ground troops to put a lazer designator on the house from across the street. You need to stop listening the fevered ravings of Okinawa murthafucker.

Comment by Darth Bacon

Damn…you restored the Live Preview, and I still misspelled “Coalition”.

Comment by Sir Christopher

wow, for a second there i had thought Zarqawi was a valuable kill, what with all the intelligence found and ensuing raids and exterminations we’ve been able to effect since we descended upon his blasted hideout.

nice try DJ Moving Goalpost.

oh, and why again did you feel the need to refer to Savage by his jewish name Weiner the other day while you were namedropping?

and you can see into the future and know that this Iraqi Islamic State you’re jizzing in your pants over is WORSE (though it has not been born yet) than your buddy Carter’s Iranian Islamic State.

Comment by Sir Christopher

BAGHDAD, Iraq — A key Al Qaeda in Iraq leader described as the group’s “religious emir” was killed in a U.S. airstrike hours before two American soldiers went missing and in the same area, the military said Tuesday.
“give defeat a chance” waaaaaaaa, right PP?

Comment by MCaN

ROTFLMFAO!!!

RvB is great……I must say.

Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

Ya’ know, it’s a good Gottdam thing that the stupid LiberIdiots weren’t in charge of the Union during, say, 1861-1865. Oprah, Spike, Harry and the rest of their brothers & sisters would still be picking cotton in Mississippi.

“But, President Lincoln, we lost 15,000 soldiers yesterday! We’ve GOT to cut ‘n’ run or we’re going to lose our seats in Congress next election! After all, it’s just a bunch of little brown people we’re talking about here!”

Comment by LC Chance

You know DJ, The goal of this was to make it possible for Iraq to stand on its own. They don’t NEED to depend on us, they DO NEED to rely on themselves. That was the way it was designed, thats the way its working out, and yet it somehow disturbs you.

How easy would be to exit if they all depended on us? How much easier will it be since they are learning to depend on themselves, and how in the hell can you and yours not see this?

Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

And yes, liberalism is a mental disorder.

And pathologically fatal, if left unprotected by a strong immune system. (aka REAL fighting mean and women) It’s a parasitic organism that feeds off of the worker cells and re-distributes the life-blood to the lazy fat cells, eventually collapsing the entire system under the weight of too many lazy fat cells and exhausted worker cells.

Comment by LC Chance

No Emperor, we did not liberate a bunch of insecure, bedwetting ninnies.

Unfortunately, the aforementioned incontinent ninnies are alive and well here at home.

Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

DJ, I’m going to bite my tongue out of respect for Misha, and the work you do to help him, but I swear, a political deviant like yourself has NO fucking room to call Republicans stupid.

Oh fer cryin’ out loud. Don’t bite your tongue on my account. You will only bleed and that might lead to an infection. Just because I twist the nuts and bolts here doesn’t mean that I deserve preferential treatment simply because there are occasions I disagree with you.

The Iraq Military and Police are who they SHOULD be trusting, thats why WE are training them.

Did you forget that there was already a security structure in place prior to us disbanding them?

So just exactly when in a war are our troops NOT targets? That’s murthafucker logic “If we go home, there won’t be any terrorist”. Keep clicking those heels together DJ, you’ll get home someday.

Wake up, Ranger, we are NOT at war. We are involved in an occupation. We won the war back in 2003.

It was boots on the ground intelligence that allowed our ground troops to put a lazer designator on the house from across the street. You need to stop listening the fevered ravings of Okinawa murthafucker.

I think you need to keep up with the facts. Zarqawi was ratted out by his own people, most likely on orders from the real al Qaeda. So we sent in a team, put a lazer designator on him, and presto, no more Zarqawi. We didn’t need to have 150,000 troops hanging around inside of the country to do any of that. In fact, the Iraqi forces could have done it themselves.

Do you consider who trains these ING and IPF forces? Hmmm? You don’t think Iraqis know who is ultimately responsible for their safety?

So they are now trained. Another mission accomplished. Leaving them alone to do their job might actually give them more clout.

The six percent trusting the thugs and militias with their protection are either cowed by them, or aligned with them.

I agree. But six percent is a pretty hefty figure, when you consider that it is six times the amount that want to see us remain there.

And then there’s a little thing you liberals are fond of citing- “Cultural Bias”…you never ponder for a moment that an Arab may have a problem confessing any positive feelings (much less concede to the demeaning condition of relying on Infidels for protection) towards an outsider, when being questioned by a stranger who is quite possibly also a fellow Arab.

Again, I agree, and all the more reason to start backing away and let their own military and police take over.

I can’t understand for the life of me why you only see the negative assessments as valid or relevant, and not the positive ones, such as the growing abilities of the ING and IPF.

Did it appear that I was unhappy that 78 percent of the people want their own military and police to provide security for them? I am ecstatic. I would be more concerned if the numbers were the other way around.

Despite the steady lowering of coilition casulaties […]

Don’t you also mean the steady lowering of coalition forces too? (not that there were many to begin with besides the US and Britain)

[..](due to a lowering of attacks, in part), despite the very nature of the tactics of desperation employed by the Saddamists and Al Qaedists (”Terror”, which you percieve as a sign of robustness, but is in fact a means of imposing themselves upon a “terrified” populace), despite the lessening of the poverty levels and lack of services to areas outside the Sunni triangle war-zone, you carp on…

First, the number of attacks have been increasing, as there are a multitude of factions each vying for some kind of power. The attacks aren’t necessarily directed towards our troops, but they are directed towards each other.

Unemployment is hovering over fifty percent, with most reconstruction jobs going to an imported labor force. We are building a $1 Billion embassy and twelve bases over there in a compound that is larger than the Vatican. Yet not one of those jobs is going to the Iraqi labor force. At least with the German and Japanese occupation and reconstruction, we utilized native labor, which not only kept the Japanese and German people out of trouble and from being idle, it also gave them a sense of ownership in their affairs. People who have jobs don’t have too much time on their hands to be insurgents. Instead, we leave fifty percent of Iraqis idle and unemployed so that companies like Haliburton and Bectel can utilize slave labor and reap insane profits in the process.

I’m glad people with your beliefs are part of the discourse- it helps identify you, and to marginalize you in the marketplace of ideas.

Funny, the majority of people in this country don’t feel “marginalized”.

Damn…you restored the Live Preview, and I still misspelled “Coalition”.

Actually, Misha restored it. I had forgotten about it.

Stupid? Yeah, concentrate on that 78 percent, and then ask yourself this: Would that police force even be there without the multinational forces? Hmmmmmm?

Yes, they would have been there, if the “mulit”national forces hadn’t disbanded them. Their only “crime” was that they tended to be “Baathists”, even though it was a requirement in the Saddam regime to be a member to hold a good job.

And please, differentiate between insurgents and fucking terrorists you mornonic dumbass liberals and MSM like to call minutemen and insurgents.

Did you need a dictionary?

Insurgent: Participating in open revolt against a government or ruling authority

Terrorist: An individual who uses violence, terror, and intimidation to achieve a result.

One isn’t necessarily exclusive to the other. Terrorism is a tactic.

Stupid liberal Democrats, the hatred for America grows every day.

I am getting a little tired of the meme that just because we disagree with your political tactics, we somehow hate America. We just hate the tactics, that’s all.

wow, for a second there i had thought Zarqawi was a valuable kill, what with all the intelligence found and ensuing raids and exterminations we’ve been able to effect since we descended upon his blasted hideout.

I never said killing him was a bad thing. If there was anyone who deserved killing, it was Zarqawi. But it should have been done sooner, like the umpteen times we had the chance prior to invading Iraq, but President Chuckles shitcanned the plans.

oh, and why again did you feel the need to refer to Savage by his jewish name Weiner the other day while you were namedropping?

What, do you think I am being anti-Semetic or something? In case you didn’t know, I am Jewish myself. Perhaps you are reading a little too much into this?

As I recall, you were holding Michael up like he was some kind of authority or something. I was just telling you that he isn’t what he appears to be on the radio. As I said, I have known the man personally and professionally for many years. If you wish to remain gullible, then far be it to keep you from that endeavor.

and you can see into the future and know that this Iraqi Islamic State you’re jizzing in your pants over is WORSE (though it has not been born yet) than your buddy Carter’s Iranian Islamic State.

Have you even bothered to read the Iraqi Constitution? Perhaps you should focus a bit on Chapter One, Article (2)(a) and Article (90) where it talks about the Federal Court being made up of judges and experts (read that lawyers) in Sharia Law.

Read Michael Totten on Northern Iraq and Kurdistan

Aren’t the Kurds actively trying to pursue autonomy from the rest of Iraq? They want no part of the rest of Iraq. Given the chance, they would become Kurdistan, not Iraq.

Frankly, I think the best option for the entire region would be to split Iraq into thirds.

It is funny that nobody here has even mentioned the memo I posted from our Ambassador to Iraq to Condi Rice detailing the conditions over there.

The only war going on over there is a civil war:

Civil war: A war between factions or regions of the same country.

Occupation:

1. Invasion, conquest, and control of a nation or territory by foreign armed forces.
2. The military government exercising control over an occupied nation or territory.

War:

1.
a. A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
b. The period of such conflict.
c. The techniques and procedures of war; military science.

We are occupying a sovereign nation, we are not at war with it. Iraq is involved in the beginnings of its own civil war, of which we aren’t a party to, nor should we be. (at least that was the arguments you gave when Clinton went into Kosovo)

Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

so you hang on every word of the memo from State, but poo poo the memo we found on Zarqawi’s body saying that THE INSURGENCY is in dissaray?

lol! This was your hand-picked ambassador. He was one of the greatest cheer leaders for the invasion, and he got rewarded for his stance. Now he is realizing that everything is falling apart all around him. I am only going from his words that can be verified, versus some “papers” of Zarqawi’s that to this date can’t be. Could it be that you are giving more credence to Zarqawi than you are our own ambassador?

As far as Zarqawi’s “papers”, aside from the fact that there is still no authenticity to them, he was probably talking about his insurgency efforts. His group was just one tiny faction of many insurgency groups that have sprung up in Iraq since the invasion. Even Tony Snow has indicated that Zarqawi wasn’t operating with the blessing of the heads of al Qaeda.

what’s it like, living every day looking for the cloud in a silver lining? Another day at Err America.

You can’t miss the clouds that you people are creating. Since this “war on a terror”, terrorism has risen exponentially. We are actually creating terrorism, not preventing or eliminating it. Instead of going after the ones that were responsible for 9/11 (remember bin Laden “dead or alive”?), we invaded a country that didn’t have an insurgency or terrorism prior to the war. We provided a training ground for terrorism.

If you think that any of our actions over there has made the region “safer”, you are smoking some really funny shit.

Since our failing foreign policies in that region, we now have several other countries with Hezbolla and Hamas in charge.

Maybe we are on the verge of winning, and you and your sick ilk want to “quit before the Miracle” simply for your own political gain.

The evidence is pointing in the other direction. Even the sovereign government of Iraq is pressuring the Bush administration for a timetable for our troops leaving.

This is actually a good thing. You see our troops leaving as a “bad thing”. The longer we stay there, the longer it will be before things settle down, and the Iraqis can get on with the rebuilding of a stable nation. Nobody is saying that we should wash our hands of the entire thing, we just need to get out of the way by redeploying to a place where we can offer support when needed. The Iraqi government feels that it can handle most of its problems on its own now.

Personally, I think the first groups to be removed from Iraq should be the contractors. Put the Iraqis in charge of their own rebuilding. This will create jobs for those who are angry because they can’t find work. This will cut down the insurgency dramatically, and give the Iraqis a sense of ownership in their own nation.

The assumption by many is that Iraqis were like the Afghans — unskilled and incapable of taking care of their own infrastructure. The fact is, Iraqis are highly skilled and educated people. Things would have been a lot more stable after the invasion if these people had been allowed to work on their own reconstruction. We probably could have been completely out of there by now and on to something else.

it’s thinking like yours that got us into the problems we’re in now. Clinton showing weakness for eight fucking years started this whole ball rolling.

Not only was Saddam boxed in, his only threat was to himself. He had no weapons, he had no viable military or equipment. If anything, he hated Islamic Fundamentalists more than we do. He had nothing to do with 9/11, and given the chance, he would have wiped out Zarqawi and his training camp that was ironically protected by our no-fly zone.

If you want to talk about “weaknesses”, how about the 150 separate reports indicating that Bush was told about the possibility of the 9/11 attacks being imminent? His only response was to extend his vacation. I think the most damning was the PDB entitled “Bin Laden determined to strike in U.S. (by hijacking airplanes)” Bush went fishing.

Go back a few months to the transfer of power, when the Bush administration was briefed on the most important threats to national security. Osama and Al Qaeda was at the top of that list, but the only thing Bush and Cheney wanted to know about was Iraq. In fact, Cheney was tasked to head up a terrorist task force, and it never met once prior to 9/11.

The grown ups are simply cleaning up your mess.

More like the inmates are running the asylum.

As far as a liberal progressive strategy for this mess, here is a plan that should at least be considered.

Note: I said considered — something that seems to be lacking in this administration and throughout most Republican circles. There are alternatives out there, but instead of looking at the pros and cons of any of those alternatives, they are routinely dismissed and attacked because they don’t allow for anything else but the narrow path or course of action. I am NOT saying that EVERY alternative should be adopted, but they should at least be considered before being dismissed out of hand simply because of the source.

The truth is, nobody wants to see us fail at anything, regardless of the propaganda out there. It isn’t in any of our interests to have a destablized Middle East.

You call this administration “decisive” and “strong”, but the reality is simply blind bullheadedness. True leadership allows for a change in tactics and adjustments when things aren’t working, and the ability to admit when things aren’t going well.

Comment by LC Moriarty

Murtha.

(Yawn.)

Frnak has the goods, as usual.

Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

You don’t just not get it, you don’t want to get it.

Oh, I “get it”, and so does the majority of people in this country. Staying the current course is NOT working, it is only deteriorating. How many attacks have occurred today? How many have been taken hostage? And now we have seven Marines and a Sailor charged with murdering an Iraqi civilian? Could this be a sign that things might actually be breaking down over there, and our troops are over-stressed? How many of these guys were “stop-loss”‘d or had served way too much time over there without being rotated out? It is certainly a valid defense. How many more might be psychologically effected by being over there too long without a break?

I can’t blame these troops for the actions that led to them being charged, I blame the policy itself that put them in that situation. We had no real plan for AFTER the war was concluded — and still don’t. The pattern of incompetence by the planners in this thing is staggering.

I was stunned by the stupidity of your last few posts, but this zinger made me realize, you simply won’t face reality regardless of the presented facts.

You mean your version of the presented ‘facts’? More and more facts are coming out every day now, showing that most of the reasons for going into Iraq were at the very least were wrong. (and I am being charitable here) Initially, I bought those reasons like you still continue to do, but now there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I don’t understand why you hope so fervently that we fail in Iraq and in the WoT (proven by your never ending search for bad news and misrepresentation about both) , but it’s clear by your posts that you do.

Why can’t you get it out of your mind that I DON’T hope we fail in Iraq? Just the opposite. But the way we are going about it WILL ultimately fail, unless we re-evaluate what it is we are doing and make some serious adjustments. THIS is what you are failing to understand, either by design or by having a closed mind.

Look, it is a lot like a football game. You might go in the game with a set plan to win, but the other team might screw up those plans and you have to make some adjustments to the plays in order to regain momentum.

I want Iraq to succeed, and to that end, I want to see this administration change its tactics so that it does.

Comment by Sir Christopher

Golly, you didn’t tell us THIS about your new Hero Murtha PP!

Last June, the Los Angeles Times reported how the ranking member on the defense appropriations subcommittee has a brother, Robert Murtha, whose lobbying firm represents 10 companies that received more than $20 million from last year’s defense spending bill. “Clients of the lobbying firm KSA Consulting — whose top officials also include former congressional aide Carmen V. Scialabba, who worked for Rep. Murtha as a congressional aide for 27 years — received a total of $20.8 million from the bill,” the L.A. Times reported.
In early 2004, according to Roll Call, Mr. Murtha “reportedly leaned on U.S. Navy officials to sign a contract to transfer the Hunters Point Shipyard to the city of San Francisco.” Laurence Pelosi, nephew of House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, at the time was an executive of the company which owned the rights to the land. The same article also reported how Mr. Murtha has been behind millions of dollars worth of earmarks in defense appropriations bills that went to companies owned by the children of fellow Pennsylvania Democrat, Rep. Paul Kanjorski. Meanwhile, the Center for Responsive Politics, a nonpartisan campaign-finance watchdog group, lists Mr. Murtha as the top recipient of defense industry dollars in the current 2006 election cycle.

Comment by LC Ranger 6

Political incest and inbreeding.

Now we have a better understanding of where the moonbat gene originates.

Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

This “majority” you’re throwing around, would that be the one that elected this administration? Twice?

Yes, and fickle as they are, if the election were held today, this administration would lose by a far greater margin than the 3 million they won by in 2004. People know more now than they did two years ago. They are getting past the propaganda on this thing, and they are getting real tired of the never-ending Iraq.

Zarqawi himself tells the world from his grave no less that “staying the course” IS WORKING, but DJ here in the safe trappings of his CONUS based uberintelligencia Sooper Sekrit war spying machine knows he’s lying.

Fer cryin’ out loud, Ranger, I was only saying what the White House Press Secretary was saying. Just because FAUX News didn’t focus on it doesn’t mean it wasn’t said.

*rolling eyes in disbelief*

Is that before or after you stick your fingers in your ears and go “la-la-la”?

More than a million soldiers rotate through a 12 month hardship tour, less than a dozen MAYBE screwed up and you focus on only the actions of those few. And you wonder why I think you want us to lose? Dense much?

Really? I have four friends currently over there, who have been there continuously since 2003. Do you think they are the only four stuck in their situation? There are people over there right now on their third and fourth tour. Is it happening to everyone? Probably not, but I suspect that there are a substantial number of them. The question I had was whether these particular guys had been over there longer than they should have been. I was looking for mitigating circumstances for their alleged actions. We owe them that much. But if you think they have only been there less than 12 months, then they have no action.

To this ignorant statement I’ll just say that you obviously never served. Hardship tours are 12 months. Unless there is a shortage of your MOS and it is critical to the mission you serve 12 months on a hardship tour. If you are stoplossed IN THEATER during a hardship tour, it would last only as long as it took to replace you with a matching MOS.

I never made it to combat, but I did serve. But that is immaterial, since what is happening now is not how it has always been. There are people doing more than one hardship tour, and they are NOT all volunteering for it. Sure, there are people who are volunteering, and bless them for it. But I suspect the reason has more to do with comradery (not wanting to let your buddies down) than it has to do with the “mission” itself. The MOS excuse is thin since there are a lot of people over there doing jobs so far out of their MOS that it doesn’t even make sense.

Which means they possess a personality trait that is naturally lacking in the moonbat population: Courage.

Oh, you mean like the “courage” of Dick Cheney, George Bush, Karl Rove and let’s not forget that “pimple” Rush had on his butt. “Cut and Run” was a habit with these guys long before Murtha, who actually has more experience in these matters than they will ever have.

*CLANG!!!* and my 36oz ClueFungo™ knocks that moonbat meme over the wall and into the lake.

*ouch* And that bit of linky love came straight from, that’s right, a senator’s personal website. No blogger link here. But oh, I’m sure it’s just his version of reality.

• Since 2003 Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent.

And how old were these munitions? Pre-Gulf war? Probably the same that we sold him in the first place. Hardly the “huge stockpiles” we were told that Saddam was manufacturing in the lead up to the invasion.

But hey, it is good they found something, although I am sure that if we had continued with inspections instead of spending $8 Billion a month occupying a sovereign nation, they could have been destroyed a long time ago.

Dissent = good, patriotic, American

Screaming “we can’t win” during a time of war, gettarope.

Not a war, Ranger, an occupation. The war is over and has been for three years. There is nothing to “win” in an occupation — we already own it.

We are not fighting the sovereign nation of Iraq. You cannot have a war with an ally — especially one we just installed. Ergo, our presence there is an occupation.

Also, there has never been a war against Iraq declared by Congress — the only body of our government allowed to declare war.

Another sign of the occupation was evident when President Bush showed up unannounced a week ago in Iraq, giving the Iraqi government a whopping five minute notice of his arrival. Try doing that with Russia, Red China, or even Great Britain. Nope, still boils down to an “occupation”, not a war.

shit, he makes Cunningham look like a Piker. No wonder the fat slob traitor is screaming so loud. Murtha, not you PP.

You haven’t heard me defend Murtha here too much. He is usually pretty much a hawk on most military issues. On this one issue, he happens to be right. If he is “dirty”, get rid of him — it’s a no-brainer. I have long advocated getting rid of just about everyone in Congress and bring in term limits — I don’t care which side of the aisle they are on. I don’t want anyone in a position of power to enrich themselves at the expense of the country.

I would much rather have a person in office I don’t agree with who is NOT on some kind of ‘take’ than to have someone in there I DO agree with who is bilking us. I have always been fiercely consistent on that.

Ranger, you and I are just going to have to disagree on this. You refuse to make adjustments in how we eventually end our occupation, in favor for “staying the course” — even if we have gone as far as we can with it. I think you envision a never-ending war, while the majority of people want it to end as soon as possible — however long that might be. You equate changing plans with “cutting and running” even though there has never been any honest debate on it. You see it as “losing”, where the rest of us see it as we have already won. It is all about perceptions. It doesn’t mean that either one of us is “wrong” or “right”. Regardless of what you think, our goals are the same. We just argue over the road we take, that’s all.

Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

Thanks, cOOtch. Still having those homoerotic desires I see.

Comment by LC Ranger 6

Whistling past a graveyard DJ.

Or in this case whislting past reality.

Like I said, waste of Misha’s bandwidth. You’d swear the moon was made of cheese after breaking off 6 teeth on a piece of it.

Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

Nope pissant, just looking at the writings of a gutless SOB who he and his ilk cheered every US death and rooted for the Viet Cong 35 years ago when I returned from Vietnam….you like Murtha and Kerry, hate this country and it’s troops.

I did?

I lost a brother over there, you cork in the asshole of progress. Quit trying to assume things about me that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I’ve tried to be nice to you and talk reasonably with you. You appear to be totally incapable of it. You can’t debate, so you just revert to name-calling and using homoerotic terms. Any sense of validity in your narrow viewpoint is lost. In fact, I have yet to determine what point, if any, you have other than to be a complete and utter moron.

And tell me, hOOt, what, if anything, have YOU done to support the troops? How about their families? Are you one of those people with the faded ribbons and/or flags on your car? Do you just mouth the words saying you “support” the troops? Try putting your time and money where your mouth is. I do. I routinely give between 10 and 20 percent of my income to veteran’s groups, I buy and ship items to troops currently in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I do errands for troop’s family members here in the Seattle area. I find time to take disabled vets to the movies, to dinner, and other things.

You know absolutely nothing about me.

Comment by LC Ranger 6

I routinely give between 10 and 20 percent of my income to veteran’s groups, I buy and ship items to troops currently in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I do errands for troop’s family members here in the Seattle area. I find time to take disabled vets to the movies, to dinner, and other things.

Then you must have two personalities. One you display here and a completely opposite one when you are “doing things” for vets and thier families because with your attitude the only vets that I can think of that would let you “do things” for them would be of the code pink variety.

Comment by Mark6591

Actually, DJ, your nonsense is just plain moonbattery.

Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

Actually, DJ, your nonsense is just plain moonbattery.

And let that be the reason I will no longer be making political comments here. If it is the sound of one hand clapping you want to hear, then far be it from me to provide the other hand.

I will just stick to the technical stuff (and music) and keep my political mouth shut.

Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

Now DJ, that is cut-and-run. Put up or shut up.

I choose shut up — at least on political topics.

I understand if you can’t stand the heat.

Heat? No, boredom and exhaustion. Besides, what’s the point? I listen to what people have to say, but it appears that nobody cares to hear what I am saying. I am not picking on anyone here, it happens on all political sites. You might have remembered my failed experiment on the Political Puzzle a couple of years ago. Everyone on both sides tend to talk past each other or call names. Not a great tactic if you are trying to convince the other person.

If we wanted to hear the sound of one hand clapping, this blog would look like the DU:

I can’t recall the last time I went to that site — at least five years. It sounds like you spend much more time there than I EVER could, or would.

No, Ranger, I woke up this morning and decided that it is better for me AND you if I simply stick to the technical things here. It doesn’t mean I won’t talk to you in the Instant Bark about other things, but frankly, I spend the better part of my day with political topics swirling around me — for which I get paid — it just becomes tiring to come home and continue on.

I don’t post all that much on Grouchy’s site either — for the same reason. I might post something once, maybe twice a week, if the mood hits me.

I will post humor and music here, but I am bowing out of the political stuff.