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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » It Just HAS To Be Twue !!!
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The wonders of Academic Asshattery never cease. Fortunately most of the good science coming from the halls of institutes of higher learning occurred before the mold set in and actual scientific principles was scrupulously followed, to wit: a hypothesis was formulated to explain a particularly consistent behavior (and the hypothesis may very well have multiple explanations) and published, permitting peers to review the work and after considerable debate your theory just might be determined to be sound science or you go back to square one and start over again. But that was yesteryear. Today scientific method involves 1) An agenda that absolutely, positively must be proven, without any variance from the intended result 2) Research (usually paid for by public funds) carefully screened or adjusted to meet the agenda requirements and 3) Immediate publishing of the research results to the public sans any careful peer review.

And thus, we get the following. Alleged scientifically produced evidence (i.e. hard proof) of something, even the author himself finds arguable. But don’t let that stop you from immediately concluding the agenda has been proven and now “settled” science.

Gay Unions Sanctioned in Medieval Europe

Civil unions between male couples existed around 600 years ago in medieval Europe, a historian now says.

A nice conclusive statement isn’t it? Surely there must be incontrovertible evidence of this right?

Historical evidence, including legal documents and gravesites, can be interpreted as supporting the prevalence of homosexual relationships hundreds of years ago, said Allan Tulchin of Shippensburg University in Pennsylvania.

No question whatsoever, homosexuality has been prevalent throughout much of history and well documented in some cases. However, other ‘new’ evidence that the author himself alludes that could be interpreted (differently) doesn’t fall into the category of proof of anything.

If accurate, the results indicate socially sanctioned same-sex unions are nothing new, nor were they taboo in the past.

Hold the presses there. The existence of a legal document in and of itself is no proof of a societal sanction. Our legal system routinely voids various documents, being outside established customs and laws. We’ve seen wills conveying the decedent’s estate to pets that were eventually overturned.

“Western family structures have been much more varied than many people today seem to realize,” Tulchin writes in the September issue of the Journal of Modern History. “And Western legal systems have in the past made provisions for a variety of household structures.”

Why yes, I do believe you are right there anyway. We’ve adjusted family structures for couples with children from previous marriages, adoptions, custody for other than immediate familial relatives and such.

For example, he found legal contracts from late medieval France that referred to the term “affrèrement,” roughly translated as brotherment. Similar contracts existed elsewhere in Mediterranean Europe, Tulchin said.

In the contract, the “brothers” pledged to live together sharing “un pain, un vin, et une bourse,” (that’s French for one bread, one wine and one purse). The “one purse” referred to the idea that all of the couple’s goods became joint property. Like marriage contracts, the “brotherments” had to be sworn before a notary and witnesses, Tulchin explained.

Let me toss some other possibilities into ‘your’ maybe it is true hypothesis here. Throughout the medieval period numerous brotherhoods and sisterhoods sprang up, often related to religious practices. The Templars are one group that comes to mind. They were known as the ‘Poor Knights’ upon their induction into the order, they took a pledge of poverty, transferred their wealth to the order and pledged allegiance to their fellow Templars as brothers. Females entering convents also took similar pledges of poverty, piety and fealty to the particular order. An unbiased observer might conclude that considering the relative popularity of various orders such as these just might include legal documentation of their vows. I just happen to be a Notary Public myself, the notaries of the time were generally scribes, just ordinary citizens that could read and write. A notarized document is merely certification that the signatory parties are who they say they are, the document was not signed under duress and the statements and facts therein are the truth. A notarized document does NOT make any conclusion whatsover, that in this case the ‘contract’ has legal validity. Hells Bells you could have a mafia “Hit Contract” notarized if you really wanted to.

The same type of legal contract of the time also could provide the foundation for a variety of non-nuclear households, including arrangements in which two or more biological brothers inherited the family home from their paents and would continue to live together, Tulchin said.

Go ahead, keep inserting your foot into your mouth even further. Why don’t you?

But non-relatives also used the contracts. In cases that involved single, unrelated men, Tulchin argues, these contracts provide “considerable evidence that the affrèrés were using affrèrements to formalize same-sex loving relationships.” [Emph Mine]

Possibly, but you’ve provided a lot of evidence to the contrary. But don’t let common sense stop you from drawing a conclusion supporting your agenda. I do notice that on the path to ‘proving’ your agenda, the use of a number of disclaimers emnating from your piehole.

The ins-and-outs of the medieval relationships are tricky at best to figure out.

Buuuuwwwwaaaaahhhhaaaaaa….You just can’t make this shit up. All those tricky ins-and-outs. No doubt Mr. Tulchin has explored every possible combination of said activities.

“I suspect that some of these relationships were sexual, while others may not have been,” Tulchin said. “It is impossible to prove either way and probably also somewhat irrelevant to understanding their way of thinking. They loved each other, and the community accepted that.” [Emph Mine Yet Again]

Backpedal, cover your ass and proceed you ass-hatted academic chancre. If you take a look at most current religious orders, we are taught to view one another as brother and sisters in faith and with love. You know that pesky Bible book, that some of us plebes actually read, understand and believe in, tell us to do exactly that. It’s not an argument for homosexual love, you simpering, booger-eater.

Do keep on digging, just don’t mind if we piss in your hole from time to time.

78 Responses to “It Just HAS To Be Twue !!!”
  1. Unregistered Comment by Uchuck the Tuchuck

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    Okay. At the same time, 600 years ago, they burned people at the stake for a variety of reasons. The precendent has been set. Anybody got a match?

  2. Unregistered Comment by Uchuck the Tuchuck

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    And FOIST!

  3. Unregistered Comment by Uchuck the Tuchuck

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    And before anybody here or lurking in the shadows suggests that I advocate burning anyone at the stake for any reason, the answer is “no, I don’t.”

  4. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    Okay. At the same time, 600 years ago, they burned people at the stake for a variety of reasons.

    Yeppers and when the Pope dissolved the Templars in France, had them imprisoned and some executed, they were tortured to admit (among other things) to having unnatural relationships with men. But we can’t let actual history get in the way of pushing an agenda now can we?

  5. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

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    If accurate, the results indicate socially sanctioned same-sex unions are nothing new, nor were they taboo in the past.

    So God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for NOTHING????? Boy, was HE a spoil sport.

  6. LC Old Dog Comment by LC Old Dog

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    JB

    Is there a hanging slider that you can not hit out of the park.

    Great Fisking :em69:

  7. Unregistered Comment by Rustonite

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    I don’t see what the big deal is. I could draw up a document like that right now, and it would be legally enforceable. I don’t know how other states work, but under Louisiana law, there are very few restrictions on what adults can sign themselves into. I don’t see how the existence of households contracts implies societal approval of homosexual relationships, unless the afrerement mentions a right to the other signer’s body.

    This is why I’ve never understood the legal (as opposed to the moral or emotional) reasons behind gay marriage- any legal rights you can get from marriage over the other person’s property or person, you can get from a contract between the parties. For instance, my best friend (who is also male) is my medical proxy, because I have no close relatives living within several thousand miles. Tada, no marriage needed. Which is good, because I’m not sure how my girlfriend would feel about my marrying a guy.

    A thought on the notarization- in civil law jurisdictions (like Louisiana), notaries have significantly more of a role in the drafting of legal documents. They’re not just there to verify identities, they’re actually empowered like lawyers to draw up contracts and wills and such, and in some places, they can be held responsible if they produce an unenforceable document. Granted, this was 600 years ago, but it’s part of the same legal tradition, so if these were notarized, they’re probably valid.

  8. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    “I suspect that some of these relationships were sexual, while others may not have been,”

    Can you say “Projection” Boys and Girls?

    I knew you could! :em69:

  9. Unregistered Comment by CKO1986

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    I need to get out more…this is the first I’ve heard of this story.

  10. sig94 Comment by sig94

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    Thus sprake Allan “Choo Choo Tushpoker” Tulchin of Shippenituptoofarsburg University…

    JB, you definitely have a way of ramming it in and breaking it off.

  11. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    Rustonite-

    Thanks for the comment and welcome, I don’t believe I’ve seen you amongst the pack as of yet, pardon if I’ve been delinquent in noticing you before.

    Now to your comment:

    any legal rights you can get from marriage over the other person’s property or person, you can get from a contract between the parties.

    Exactly, spot-on 100% correct. There are any number of valid, legal powers of attorney that two parties can agree to. I faced the same issue a number of years ago, having custody of my children with bio-mom living over 2000 miles away. My fiancee (now spouse) couldn’t get the kids medical attention, registered for school or what have you. An attorney friend gave me a template for a few powers of attorney which I completed and the issue was solved, of course I included one for each other to sign medical consent to treat as well. While not being married at the time, these documents were still a de jure contract between us with no need to receive any state sanction whatsoever. We keep coming back to this EXACT argument. There is absolutely no impediment for same-sex couples to engage into any legal contractual relationship, including health care and financial matters. Actual legislation sanctioning “civil-unions” is a straw man argument. And oh, by the way before one of our resident trolls decides to shit on the Emperor’s brand new carpet, many businesses are now permitting employee’s to designate life-partners as beneficiaries for medical coverage.

    Personally, I think this is a good thing and business obviously does as well, without being forced to by the government. I could care less what living arrangements anyone choses to engage in, just don’t ask or coerce me into voting for it.

    Regardless, the tiny EXTREMELY vocal, rabid gay-lobby has one goal, to make us recognize, accept and put society’s stamp of approval on calling their relationships a marriage.

  12. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Sig:

    JB, you definitely have a way of ramming it in and breaking it off.

    Ya think, maybe, in light of the fisking at hand, you could have expressed that though in a somewhat different way?

    :em99: :em99: :em99: :em99: :em99: :em99:

  13. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    Another boner.

  14. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    I don’t see what the big deal is. I could draw up a document like that right now, and it would be legally enforceable.

    Ah, but the good Mr. Tulchin undoubtedly knows that and couldn’t care less because that isn’t the big deal for him here.

    He’s just trying to rewrite history, airbrushing it to fit his agenda and the truth be damned. The point? To eliminate that pesky argument about homosexual marriage being a major change in society by claiming that gays were being married 600 years ago with no problem whatsoever. Never mind actual proof.

    Not to mention that I find it utterly hilarious that anybody, even for a second, could imagine Medieval 1400s Europe as being tolerant of open, formalized homosexual partnerships. If the whiners today are complaining about hordes of Christofascist Gay-Haters roaming the streets, thirsty for gay blood, they ought to have been around to witness what the barbaric bastards back in the Middle Ages would do to sodomites as they were called back then.

    Yet here the twat Tulchin is, claiming that homosexual marriages were fully accepted and normal back then.

    In the 1400s. When feudal lords were allowed to hack down peasants for not looking away when they rode by.

    The worst part is, there’ll be some morons out there that believe it. More and more of them as the lie is repeated over and over again.

    Because that’s how leftards work.

  15. Lady Heather Comment by Lady Heather

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    I need to get out more…this is the first I’ve heard of this story.

    I first heard about this 10 years ago. That there were actually religious ceremonies for these “unions”. I remember some genius even supplied a medieval painting of 2 men standing together in front of a cleric to prove his point. (Funny what they’ll think in 200 years when they find pictures of my brother with my Grandpa standing next to him at his Confirmation)

    As JB alluded to, let’s just toss out actual, provable history, and twist and bend it to suit our agenda.

    Hopefully, History will raise its hand and bitchslap these revisionists big time.

    As you may have noticed, I’m calling BS on the gist of this article.

  16. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    Were they peeking men?

  17. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    And before anybody here or lurking in the shadows suggests that I advocate burning anyone at the stake for any reason, the answer is “no, I don’t.”

    What a shame. I do.

  18. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    Why waiste a perfecly good stake?

  19. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    I don’t waste it. Whaddaya think spears ‘em to the ground?
    :em95:

  20. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    That there were actually religious ceremonies for these “unions”.

    I remember that story as well Lady H. They were trying to say it was de facto homosexual marriage. The inconvenient truth of the matter though was that the evidence they were using to support it was a religious blessing of business partnerships and ventures. I can’t remember who it was who debunked that line of BS, but he did a first rate smack down on the shoddy, revisionist “research”.

    Can’t the idjuts come up with something new.

  21. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    Can’t the idjuts come up with something new.

    Reality would be refreshing.

  22. hOOt Gibson Comment by hOOt Gibson

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    I’m sure BJ and his ilk are in the corner celebrating this great news….life in the fag world is wonderful once again….

    hOOt

  23. LC FIAR Comment by LC FIAR

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    I just can’t seem to give a fuck about this issue one way or the other.

    Look at that. See.

    My give-a-fuck-o-meter didn’t move.

  24. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    Whaddaya think spears ‘em to the ground?

    Rocks are very reusable.

  25. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    JB
    good point about businesses and domestic partner benefits

    “one of our resident trolls”
    –well at least we count as residents

  26. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    Rocks are very reusable.

    But not NEARLY as depraved! :em93:

  27. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    I wonder if there could be something to graves having both names engraved on them. That would seem more significant than the legal documents that can be interpreted in different manners.

    Misha–thanks for the scary Middle Ages info.

  28. hitnrun Comment by hitnrun

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    I’ve recently taken a course on Western intellectual thought at a major university and I’m astounded by what passes for “evidence” of historic conventions for homosexuality.

    Other controversial topics with a much greater positive legacy- religion, capitalism, even morality- got no such favorable handling and assumptive bias in the course.

    Honestly, I’m frightened at what archaeologists in 500 years will make of my friendships. If they find a text message from when me or my friends was drunk or having woman trouble, or a nuke goes off and we all die in someone’s basement, will they claim we were packing each other’s fudge?

    Seriously, it says a lot about American universities when the arguments for homosexual unions are more valid and sound in almost perfect inverse proportion to the speaker’s academic credentials.

  29. Unregistered Comment by crazylegs

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    Of course homosexuality happened in the middle ages, along with beastiality, incest, rape, pedophilia, and just about every other sexual oddity and dysfunction you can think of. Base sexuality has little to do with society at large. Just in case the researcher wasn’t taking notes, sex is kind of a personal thing.

    That however, doesn’t mean it was officially sanctioned and recognized.

    Oh wow, our ancestors back in the middle age just might have looked the other way when two ‘colorful’ lords wandered by. They must have condoned it, and considered it perfectly normal! My parents and grandparents generation looked the other way when a woman looked a tad plump in her wedding dress, and had a baby six months later, but they sure as heck didn’t tell me go have fun and fornicate. Thats this generation, I wasn’t taught how to fist in first grade. The teachers just taught me boring stuff like mathematics, science and how to do proper research.

  30. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    crazylegs
    I kept posting clarifications to you for previous post misunderstandings. I hope you finally got them.

    Do you know where the term “flaming” came from? It had something to do with executions for homosexuality in the middle ages. However, I suspect you are right-the Lords could get away with a little more. The Netherlands were much more liberal–I think you could get away with more there, although this research was specifically on France.

    From what I can figure out, the fisting thing happened once to 12 year olds in Mass (and should never have happened). It’s ridiculous to trot out fisting every time sex ed is mentioned. Although, I’m all ears if someone can find another case.

    My sex ed in junior high was very straightforward and made things seem quite gross, actually–sure as hell did not make me want to run out and have sex. I wish I had been taught the sex ed at a young age about inappropriate touching. My life would be different.

  31. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    My fiancee (now spouse) couldn’t get the kids medical attention, registered for school or what have you. An attorney friend gave me a template for a few powers of attorney which I completed and the issue was solved, of course I included one for each other to sign medical consent to treat as well.

    When you’re gone, they can use this doc to support that you had two society sanctioned wives.

    As far a legal marriage back then, you’d have to show me Church documents that state Bob married Bill. IIRC, the Church was the entity that kept track of who was alive, dead, married, had children etc. The Lords didn’t give a damn as long as they got their proper taxes.

  32. Unregistered Comment by mindy1

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    I certainly do not doubt that there were some gay unions back then, but some of the evidence he mentions seems vague. Maybe some were gay, maybe some were friends or relatives who entered into a contract. Studies like this are why guys like you make fun of professors. :em08:

  33. Lady Heather Comment by Lady Heather

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    (Wrong thread)

    Thanks, Dave for putting in this edit feature.
    ;)

  34. Unregistered Comment by demonicgerbil

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    Flaming came from where? I don’t think so. Yon wikipedia, written by people who invented the term in the dark ages of the interwebs, says:

    The term “flaming” is believed to be a reference to the Marvel Comic superhero the Human Torch of the Fantastic Four. After the accident which gave Johnny Storm the ability to become a human torch, he was initially unable to control when he would burst into flames. He learned to control his powers by saying “Flame on” which would initiate the transformation into a human torch and he would return to his normal state by saying “Flame off.” [1] Since early users of the asynchronous text communication wanted to distinguish their angry/insulting/sarcastic portions of their response from their serious statements, they would prefix their angry/insulting/sarcastic text with “Flame on” and indicate the end of such statements with “Flame off.”

  35. Unregistered Pingback by HISTORIAN AS IDIOTARIAN « Texas Hold ‘Em Blogger

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    […] No Comments It’s appropriate that the Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler would be the one to fisk a leftwing historian with an agenda — as well as an agenda-driven journalist — for trying to […]

  36. Unregistered Comment by Red Neckerson

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    There were recognized queer unions in the bible as well…in a couple of places known as Sodom and Gomorrah.

  37. Unregistered Comment by demonicgerbil

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    Don’t tell anyone I’m being silly. :p

    >.>

  38. Unregistered Comment by emjem

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    Flaming came from where? I don’t think so. Yon wikipedia, written by people who invented the term in the dark ages of the interwebs, says:

    Use the disambiguator, dude. She was surely referring to “flaming” as is “flaming fag,” not “flaming post.”

  39. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    Gay Unions. Would that be like the IDCBC (Interior Decorators Collective Bargaining Coalition)

    or the NAFHS ( National Association of Fabulous Hair Stylists)?

    Why shouldn’t gay people belong to unions?

    If they were good enough for Jimmy Hoffa, they should be good enough for everyone else too.

  40. Unregistered Comment by crazylegs

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    Number one; Psychochick, I saw your post concerning the misunderstanding we had a few months back psychochick. S’ok, I went a little overboard, I have a tendency to do that. Especially when I Type while under the influence.

    Speaking of misunderstandings, I’m pretty certain she was talking about flaming homosexuals, not online flaming. Two entirely differently connotations. Though both do involve people of dubious sexuality, making thier gayness overly odvious for all the world to see.

    Yes, there was almost certainly a time in the middle ages where homosexuality could get a person executed. There was probably also a time when the locals would hang draw a quarter a small child for thumbing thier nose at a horse. The original researcher (And I use the term lightly) is too broad in his scope and mission. He’s trying to judge the entire time period and all of Europe on something that varied from time frame to time frame, and location to location.

    Why? Probably win ‘feel good’ points with the gay community. He’s attempting to revise history to make people feel better about the things they are doing that they are to a limited extent ashamed of. Its an attempt to normalize a sexual minority by claiming that they’ve always been around, always been normal, and that the current opposition they claim to face now is a complete fabrication and conspiracy cooked up by those who oppose thier lifestyle choice.

  41. Unregistered Comment by Mommynator

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    Thank you, thank you thank you for this debunking.

    I’ve had it up to here with “scholars” who try to impose degenerated and fallacious 21st century thought to other times and places. These are the same people who try to impose homosexuality on David and Jonathan because they were best friends and they had an arrangement whereby they would take care of each others’ families like their own in case one of them died.

    I’m sick to death of these people trying to impose homosexuality where it isn’t.

    I too had said that same-sex couples could draw up powers of attorney and medical proxies if they were so interested in being a “committed” couple (although research suggests that male couples still screw around even when they’re “married”). Why should they be interested in degrading the concept of marriage?

    Anyway, thanks for the additional thoughts.

  42. Unregistered Comment by Infidel River Rat

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    Damned fairies and their ilk will do anything to make deviation look normal, hell, a few years ago the APA :em72: (American Psychiatric Association) :em41: published a paper that condoned pedophilia! Nothing like libs parading perversity and telling us we have to accept it, because they call it diversity! :em38:

  43. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Crazylegs
    So glad you got that post–I was getting tired of repeating it every time I saw that you had posted. No hard feelings–I just felt badly that you thought I was rude to you.

    Actually I wasn’t talking about online flaming–I was talking about being burned at the stake. shudder

    Of course, they have always been around. Was it Roman or Greek society that viewed those relationships as really positive? The bible says to kill them. Therefore, they existed back then.

    A lot of them aren’t ashamed, although the gay teen suicide rate is through the roof. Why should they be if they are contributing members of society? I’m happy to see people in good relationships–straight or gay. You would be really shocked at some of the manly guys who are gay.

    The research does sound like a stretch, although again I wonder about the gravestone issue.

  44. Unregistered Comment by leoni2, LC

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    SoCal,

    You are correct. The church was the entity that kept all, or rather most, of the records, as they pertain to birth, death and marriage, mainly because most of the people who were educated were in some part members of the church. I don’t know about the rest of Europe, but when the only institution of higher learning (University) in England were only Oxford and Cambridge, the graduates from both institutions were expected to become priests after getting their MAs. If they didn’t, it might have been because the candidate was the son of a lord, who was simply expected to go to them to polish off the rough edges with their education before eventually becoming a member of the elite. So, if you were going to be married, it was to be done by a priest, in a church, and recorded by said priest. And considering what we do know about the church’s official policy as it comes to sodomites back then, no way in heck were they going to marry two guys in a church when the church establishment’s thinking was: male marry female, have kids, lots of kids, end of story.

    True, the lords and the others who were running the society could do whatever they wanted behind closed doors and nothing would happen to them unless it became a very big scandal, then something had to be done about it. But, if the common joe tried the same activity, and they get found out, which wasn’t hard to do, since those were very close knit communities where everybody knew everybody back then and, I hate to say it people, have a tendency to gossip about everything that happens, I’m sorry, but joe common man is going to be in deep, deep trouble with the local constabulary.

    I think this guy is reading a lot into those papers he found, and probably saying what he hopes is the truth, but is more than likely not. That is one of my pet peeves when it comes to history, stop projecting what you believe is acceptable now, onto what folks thought centuries ago, as its more than likely wrong. Take them for what they were, our ancestors who thought things different from what we think now, but who, for good or bad, eventually led to us.

  45. Unregistered Comment by leoni2, LC

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    Crazylegs,

    Why? Probably win ‘feel good’ points with the gay community. He’s attempting to revise history to make people feel better about the things they are doing that they are to a limited extent ashamed of. Its an attempt to normalize a sexual minority by claiming that they’ve always been around, always been normal, and that the current opposition they claim to face now is a complete fabrication and conspiracy cooked up by those who oppose thier lifestyle choice.

    I wished there was a clapping hands icon among the list because I’d be using it right now, because I think that you’d hit the nail on the head with this one, cause I also think this guy is just trying to score points with the gay community. Shame on him for that. Will this do, though? :em69:

  46. Unregistered Comment by leoni2, LC

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    PC,

    …being burned at the stake.

    That’s a new one on me. As far as I know, being burned at the stake just mean being burned at the stake. Maybe the academes have created a new word and haven’t shared it with the rest of us. Hmmm, yeah, yeah, that’s the ticket! A new term. Yeah. :em95:

  47. Unregistered Comment by salfter

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    JB, you definitely have a way of ramming it in and breaking it off.

    Ya think, maybe, in light of the fisking at hand, you could have expressed that though in a somewhat different way?

    If Larry :em72: Craig can start his press conference with “thank you for coming out today,” I think we can allow a little more leeway here. :em99:

  48. Unregistered Comment by seagoon

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    I too had said that same-sex couples could draw up powers of attorney and medical proxies if they were so interested in being a “committed” couple (although research suggests that male couples still screw around even when they’re “married”). Why should they be interested in degrading the concept of marriage?

    All pairings, either het or homo, have a biological tendency to screw around. We are not naturally monogamous- biologically monogamous species are hardwired to take one mate for life, and will not mate with another even if the first mate dies.

    That’s why marriage law is a near-universal cultural institution. Humans must have their sexual behavior regulated so that they can function in an ordered society.

    This is because marriage is a social institution, while mating is purely personal. In other words, the type of sexual activity indulged in (issues of age and consent excluded) does not affect society, while the money, property and children issuing which may result from a long-term social partnership (and marriage is a social contract involving usually-but not always- sexually involved partners) certainly does.

  49. The Major Comment by The Major

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    Yet another example of why I look at 21st Century “research” with a tremendous amount of skepticism. Start with an agenda, then take a piece of data and spin it to fit the desired conclusion. Tulchin left an awful lot of “Back Doors” (pun intended) to escape from should his peers actually call him on his research, but who in today’s academic world of enlightened and diversity-sensitive historical researchers would dare challenge his conclusions?

    Nobody.

    Can’t be pissin’ off the Gays, can we! Soooo… how does that effect the potential pool of OBJECTIVE peer reviewers? I’ll tell you what it does: it makes the pool so shallow you won’t get your feet wet wading through it! Apply this principle to the global warming “no more debate because it’s fact” and every other form of pseudoscientific horse shit and it is freakin’ amazing we can find our ass with both hands.

    Scientific method. It’s tedious, requires strict objectivity and sometimes doesn’t produce the outcomes we think it will. Reality is like that. Tough shit.

  50. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    Then there is the IBBJGM (International Brotherhood of Black Jewish Gay Men)

    Very popular in Chicago, I’m told.

    And, lest we forget, the CFIFTA (Congessmen From Idaho Foot Tappers Association)

    ( I don’t care who you are….That one is funny right there! )

  51. Unregistered Comment by crazylegs

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    Psychochick, I’m not saying that gays should have anything to be ashamed of, I’m saying that some of them are ashamed, or at least a tad embarassed about thier chosen preference.

    Some of them deal with it, some of them convince themselves that there is nothing they can do about it, they’re just hardwired that way (I’ll not debate the authenticity of that idea) and some of them seek ways to prove to themselves that they’re not as odd or different as they feel.

    Why do gays have parades? So they can all get together to generate selfpride among thier community, to prove the existence of that community, and to invite any lone homosexuals drifting about to join in thier community.

    Every societal group does stuff like this to a limited extent. Homosexuals have their events and clubs, different races have different organizations and so forth, every social group has some way of trying to herd its individual members into a place to give them the overwhelming message that A: You are not alone, and B: Be proud to belong in this group.

    Thats alright, seeking information on who and what you are is a good thing. I like to read about famous military men, and British war history, I like to dig through my grandfathers’ notes on our geneology. I’ve studied just about everything I am, or consider myself to be, and continue to do so thoroughly.

    But I don’t rewrite history to suite my ego. I don’t try to pretend that my family was antislavery when they weren’t. I don’t try to deny that my greatgrandfather was a racist, when I know for a fact that he was. I don’t try to pretend that one of my relatives wound up riding freighttrains as a hobo. I don’t try to change history.

    Thats what this guy is doing. If he wants to study gay history, then he’s more then free to do so. I’m sure he’ll find some absolutely fascinating and shocking information that will blow some modern misconceptions clear out of the water. But for the love of all things holy (Giggity giggity!) if you’re going to do historical research, have the decency not to seperate yourself from your beliefs and look at everything in a fair, critical and logical mindset.

    Studying history is a good thing, studying who and what you are is a good thing, rewriting and editing history to make yourself feel good about who and what you are is a very very bad thing.

  52. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    All pairings, either het or homo, have a biological tendency to screw around. We are not naturally monogamous- biologically monogamous species are hardwired to take one mate for life, and will not mate with another even if the first mate dies.

    Which is what separates most of us from animals: Self-Control, Discipline, and Commitment.

    As for their ability to get most of the ‘rights’ they seek by perverting th institution of marriage, in Washingtonistan, you can now “register” your “domestic partnership” with the state. Whoopee.

  53. Unregistered Comment by seagoon

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    But I don’t rewrite history to suite my ego. I don’t try to pretend that my family was antislavery when they weren’t. I don’t try to deny that my greatgrandfather was a racist, when I know for a fact that he was. I don’t try to pretend that one of my relatives wound up riding freighttrains as a hobo. I don’t try to change history.

    Thats what this guy is doing. If he wants to study gay history, then he’s more then free to do so. I’m sure he’ll find some absolutely fascinating and shocking information that will blow some modern misconceptions clear out of the water. But for the love of all things holy (Giggity giggity!) if you’re going to do historical research, have the decency not to seperate yourself from your beliefs and look at everything in a fair, critical and logical mindset.

    Studying history is a good thing, studying who and what you are is a good thing, rewriting and editing history to make yourself feel good about who and what you are is a very very bad thing.

    Beautifully put. There is nothing so odious as revisionist- or worse- projected history! Research and state your findings, with citations galore. Then, when the research is done, feel free to interpolate, extrapolate and postulate- just be sure to label those conclusions as such.

  54. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    crazylegs
    Thanks for your post. I’m envious. I know jackshit about my father’s family.

    I really wasn’t standing up for that guy. I was only curious about the gravestones.

    I thought that yours was a good analysis.

  55. Unregistered Comment by seagoon

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    I personally have no issues with gay, straight, group, serial, linear, or whatever civil marriages, so long as all parties are of legal age and free consent is given.

    That is none of my business- their choices as to domestic relationships don’t concern me and mine.

    I do strongly believe that no group should be able to force their definition of marriage onto a religious group. They want a civil marriage, fine, it’s for the taking. They want a religious marriage, that’s between them and the religion.

    As for the term marriage, I don’t really care about the semantics of it- if civil marriages are rebranded as civil unions, fine, whatever- so long as het civil marriages are also rebranded as civil unions.

  56. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Seagoon @ 55:

    You are going to have to quit speaking so much common sense here.

    I couldn’t agree more with what you just said — and I have been saying it here for a long time.

    What someone else does as a couple is between them. I could care less if they are two guys, two girls, a man and a woman, two transexuals, two cross dressers. It isn’t MY business. You can call their union whatever you like.

    Now I understand that most religions don’t or won’t recognize any other union but one between a man and a woman. That is fine — for the confines of that religion. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. Obviously, a “gay marriage” is not something that is going to be done in a Methodist Church. Therefore, within that church, they shouldn’t have to accept the union. However, outside that Church, even if none of the neighbors recognize the union, the government should — and so should the couple.

  57. Deathknyte Comment by Deathknyte

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    Psychochick:

    It was the greeks that thought it was a great thing. The Romans generally looked away. Unless of course you were the one getting buggered. Then you were no man.

  58. Unregistered Comment by seagoon

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    DJ, I have a problem with all morality laws that cannot be backed up with arguments about free consent (i.e. of legal age and not coerced).

    What people do among themselves is not my business, nor should it be, in my opinion. If the state must get involved, it’s involvement should be even-handed.

    I intensely resent having my conduct regulated if my behaviors are private and among consenting adults, and I support the state attempting to regulate the private, personal or consensual actions of other legally responsible adults.

  59. kwongdzu Comment by kwongdzu

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    Hmmm. Well it would explain Larry Craig. Some parts of Idaho are way behind the times.

  60. Unregistered Comment by seagoon

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    whoops, missed the edit

    and I support the state attempting to

    should read ‘and I do not support the state attempting to’

  61. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    leoni
    I was wrong (gasp!). It’s not flaming, but faggot that refers to being burned at the stick. The faggots were the pieces of wood.. Yuch!

    There’s a saying from the Middle Ages: “an intelligent woman is the work of the devil”–probably had a date with a bonfire, also

  62. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    I support civil unions between two consenting adults. If the government recognizes and benefits the union of a man and woman as one unit, then they should apply it equally to two men or two women as well.

    The argument that these benefits are in place because a ‘traditional’ marriage between a man and woman usually results in having children to take care of rings a bit hollow. There are a lot of married couples without kids, and a lot of unwed parents with kids.

    There are also a lot of gay couples who have kids as well, either through adoption or a previous marriage.

    As far as I can see, there is no legitimate reason for not allowing two people of any sexual combination to legally join together as one.

    It doesn’t take money from my pocket, and it doesn’t effect the way I live my life. It might even stop the Larry Craigs of the world from having to look for love in all the wrong places.

  63. kwongdzu Comment by kwongdzu

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    DJ: My problem with Larry Craig … well there’s more than one, actually. As far as the sex thing goes, who cares if he’s gay? Even if his policies are anti-gay, I don’t see that it makes him a hypocrite - just self-punishing. What I find dispicable, however, is the fact that he is married and has a family. He shouldn’t be trying to pick up ANYONE - man, woman or beast! The fact that he is a long standing politician makes it worse, because the family gets no privacy at all when the man messes up. His shame is their humiliation and pain as well. It speaks to the arrogance and selfishness of this twit that he would put his family in this position.

    Another of my more recent complaints about this man is he was an open borders proponent. Check his voting record on immigration. What’s a few illegals, as long as big agriculture is happy? IMO, this guy is a RINO because it helps to append an ‘R’ if you want to get elected in Idaho. Too bad you don’t have to actually earn the designation. People should have to pass some kind of consistency and values test before they are even allowed to call themselves Republicans.

  64. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    What I find dispicable, however, is the fact that he is married and has a family. He shouldn’t be trying to pick up ANYONE - man, woman or beast! The fact that he is a long standing politician makes it worse, because the family gets no privacy at all when the man messes up. His shame is their humiliation and pain as well. It speaks to the arrogance and selfishness of this twit that he would put his family in this position.

    Agreed.

    And then there’s the small thing that I, being horribly old-fashioned, have about people seeking sex with strangers in public, smelly, unsanitary restrooms.

    Sure, I’m a prude, but there’s something about somebody looking for random passers-by to fuck in a stinky outhouse that says “maybe he shouldn’t be part of running the country” to me.

    And don’t get me STARTED on his support for Shamnesty.

    Good riddance to bad rubbish, says I.

  65. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    My problem with Larry Craig is not that he is gay, but that he is still “not gay”, even though there is an ever-growing mountain of evidence to the contrary.

    Take for example the 1982 House page sex scandal. His name was never given up in the investigation, yet he jumped right out there to defend himself nonetheless:

    Guilty much? Nobody had heard these “rumors” until he jumped out there to deny them.

    There have been allegations concerning Craig’s homosexuality going back to 1967.

    Where there is smoke, there is usually a fire.

    The question is, are any of these sexual escapades illegal?

    Well, yes, some of them appear to be. Peeping or soliciting for sex in a men’s bathroom is a local misdemeanor. Having sex with minors and using drugs with them is also illegal.

    And there is the hypocricy factor, and no matter how you try to dice and filet it, it is still hypocricy.

    Larry Craig ran on, and was elected by the people of Idaho to have a certain direction. He was elected to represent them, and if that meant to support anti-gay measures, then I am quite sure they wouldn’t want him to practice being gay in his private life.

    I know that invariably, someone is going to bring up Barney Frank, and his 1989 scandal where he had sex with an adult male prostitute.

    It was illegal. I don’t recall if he was charged and convicted of a misdemeanor or not. He should have been.

    But the people of his district went ahead and re-elected him anyways.

    Gotta run. Comcrap is here.

  66. Unregistered Comment by leoni2, LC

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    PC,

    was wrong (gasp!). It’s not flaming, but faggot that refers to being burned at the stick. The faggots were the pieces of wood.. Yuch!

    I see. I guess you don’t know that the term fag, which comes from it, is also British slang for a smoke or cigarette? I’m guessing that the original use for the term, like for most term in the English language, is somewhat different from what it originally meant. It’s always in the context and use of the time.

    There’s a saying from the Middle Ages: “an intelligent woman is the work of the devil”–probably had a date with a bonfire, also

    Probably because most men back then didn’t think that women should be educated, unless they came from the elites, and even then, it wasn’t suppose to be the same type of education as the men were gettings.

    Now remember ladies, the best way to catch the future lord whateverhisname’s attention is to keep quiet, mind your own business, agree to everything he says, be available for bed, and knit, knit, knit.

    (Yes, it was an exaggeration, but I’m sure most of it was very close to the truth.)

  67. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

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    I know that invariably, someone is going to bring up Barney Frank, and his 1989 scandal where he had sex with an adult male prostitute.

    Not to mention Gerry Studds and his little tryst with a page.  And an underage one, at that.

    But I suppose that’s okay, isn’t it?  I mean, you don’t seem to have a problem with the fact that both Studds & Fwank both got re-elected (at least, not as much as you seem to have with Craig).  Where’s TEH OUTRAG3?!?!?1~

  68. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Not to mention Gerry Studds and his little tryst with a page. And an underage one, at that.

    I would have gotten to that if it hadn’t been for the interuption by the Comcrap guy. (I am beta testing ComCrap’s new “Super Modem” which delivers a whopping 30 mbps up and down. I guess it is their answer to the ever-growing FIOS networks out there.)

    But I suppose that’s okay, isn’t it?

    Personally? I am not okay with Gerry Studds, because it involved an underaged kid. I know we’ve had this conversation before during the Foley thing, and I was very consistent then too: under 16 is off limits period. Anyone between 16 and under 18 is off limits to anyone 21 or older. In other words, if a person is 40 and they are having sex with a 16 or 17 year old, they should be in prison. I don’t give a good goddam what political party they belong to, or if they were the same or different gender.

    Oh, and if you are giving that kid cocaine or any other drug? I don’t care if you are having sex or not — I will feed you alive to the pigs.

    Franks I could excuse because it was between two consenting adults, even if it did entail money changing hands. I think that laws prohibiting prostitution are pretty archaic and should be done away with. As far as the morality question between Franks and his constituency, they decided, and so be it.

    But Studds should be doing life without.

    I mean, you don’t seem to have a problem with the fact that both Studds & Fwank both got re-elected (at least, not as much as you seem to have with Craig). Where’s TEH OUTRAG3?!?!?1~

    No, Spats, no outrage. If Craig survives re-election, then so be it. It doesn’t make him any less of a hypocrite. At least Franks came out into the open with his sexuality instead of trying to hide it by overcompensating. All that is going to do is lead to further troubles in his life.

  69. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

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    Anyone between 16 and under 18 is off limits to anyone 21 or older

    Good thing this idea wasn’t around when my grandmother got married. She was 16; my grandfather was 28, iirc…

    They were married for over 50 years before he died.

  70. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

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    Gerry Studds is dead, so he’s serving life without…but I suspect it ISN’T quite where he expected to be…

  71. Radical Redneck Comment by Radical Redneck

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    Sky he’s getting the perpetual pencildick buggery WITHOUT any reacharound! :em72:

  72. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Hi, Dave!

    I support civil unions between two consenting adults. If the government recognizes and benefits the union of a man and woman as one unit, then they should apply it equally to two men or two women as well.

    As much as it may surprise you (from one of the eeeevil HaliBushHitlerCheneyBurton KKKOnservatives), I don’t either. I think the objections are twofold, if I may:
    1) The term “Marriage” being applied to something other than the traditional Man / Woman, lots of kids, etc., seems to be one of the big points of contention. Call it a Civil Union, identical otherwise to a traditional marriage, and I suspect most of the objections would dissappear.
    2) The people pushing the Gay Marriage issue are biting off too much at once. All of recorded history seems to support traditional M/W etc. unions. Trying to change too much at once should be expected to get a certain ammount of push back.

    It doesn’t take money from my pocket, and it doesn’t effect the way I live my life

    Exactly.

    It might even stop the Larry Craigs of the world from having to look for love in all the wrong places.

    I thought this was D.J., not B.C. :em93:

    My problem with Larry Craig is not that he is gay, but that he is still “not gay”, even though there is an ever-growing mountain of evidence to the contrary.

    I thought “Lying Bastard” was part of the job discription for Politicians.

    My problem with thes entire incident is that this apparently happened in a PUBLIC RESTROOM. I have kids, and I really don’t think that sort of behavior is something they need to be exposed to. They have to grow up fast enough already.

    That and the entire anonymous aspect. I don’t care if he is or is not, but I expect public officials to show a bit more discretion. Just like another public official we were discussing a few days ago. “Keep it off the streets and don’t scare the horses” seems to be a good rule of thumb.

    I know that invariably, someone is going to bring up Barney Frank, and his 1989 scandal where he had sex with an adult male prostitute.

    Well, since you brought him up (as I really wasn’t gonna), I didn’t care about him either. My objection was the sex ring being run out of his house by his boyfriend.

    Gotta run. Comcrap is here.

    You have my sympathies.

    ========================

    Spats:

    Not to mention Gerry Studds and his little tryst with a page. And an underage one, at that.

    Again, underage is the problem, not the plumbing.

  73. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Dave, are you futzing around under the hood again?

  74. Unregistered Comment by seagoon

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    Ah, Wil-

    A couple of points:

    1) The term “Marriage” being applied to something other than the traditional Man / Woman, lots of kids, etc., seems to be one of the big points of contention. Call it a Civil Union, identical otherwise to a traditional marriage, and I suspect most of the objections would dissappear.

    Like I said earlier, I have no problems with rebranding what the government does, so long as it is egalitarian. Government union, M-F, M-M, F-F, or any other combo, call what you will- leave the term ‘marriage’ exclusively to religion. That would certainly help things.

    2) The people pushing the Gay Marriage issue are biting off too much at once. All of recorded history seems to support traditional M/W etc. unions. Trying to change too much at once should be expected to get a certain ammount of push back.

    Ummm, no. The most dominant form of marriage in history is some form of polygynous plural arrangement- either combinations of man and wife plus other wives, concubines, house slaves, mistresses, etc, etc, etc…

    There are recorded, and in some cases still functional cultures with very divergent marriage customs, allowing homosexual, group, polygynous, polyandrous, temporary, and more. I can’t hunt links for you now, just arrived at work.

  75. Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P. Comment by Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P.

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    Psychochick

    I wonder if there could be something to graves having both names engraved on them. That would seem more significant than the legal documents that can be interpreted in different manners.

    Some thoughts to consider on this.

    1: Headstones and graves (in an organized graveyard), were frightfully expensive. We’re talking from several months to a year’s income or more for a skilled craftsman, from what I recall. (Remember that churchyard burials were often predicated on how much of you money had been tithed to the church through your lifetime. If you had been an obvious support to the local priest or his superiors, your chances of going into the church graveyard were high. And these are the stones that have survived to today. The wooden markers of the poor have not. (I will obliquely refer to this point again later on, I’m sure of it!)

    2: The point was raised concerning, say, two brothers who had inherited the family home, and both continued to live in that home. Or possibly two step-brothers? (or sisters/step-sisters, different names could be explained by widowhood.) Just as a reference, two of my great-uncles homesteaded two pieces of property together, building one house and one barn so that the buildings straddled the property line (part of the homesteading contract was that the ’steader had to build a house and barn and live on the property, just in case you were not aware of that detail). Neither married, as far as I know, so when they had passed on, the two homesteads were sold as a unit. (thus avoiding a potential mess with dividing the buildings, etc.)Such arrangements were not uncommon in the American West during the settlement/homesteading period.

    3: “Six feet under” The original purpose of burying six feet deep was to allow say, a husband to buried at one point in time, and the wife several years later, (or vice versa!), both in the same gravesite, with the same headstone. The second burial would, of course, be somewhat shallower, but still deep enough to prevent expression of the remains from the grave. (This is the origin of the term “boneyard” for a cemetary, oftentimes, before bodies were buried deeply, frost heaving would cause the skeletons or portions thereof to be expressed from the ground, thus exposing them on the surface. This is the same process that causes rocks to be brought to the surface in stony soil, BTW.)

    This could also have occurred in the above cases.

    4: Being an “old maid” or “lifelong bachelor” was not uncommon in the time period, either. Either you could not find someone you were interested in who returned the interest, or flat weren’t interested in anyone else, or you were just too revolting of a character for anyone to put up with you at all, you might go unmarried. (Or simply that no one could raise your dowry or you couldn’t raise one yourself!) (note, this would be relatively impossible in the lower classes, thus, for all practical purposes, exclusively the province of the nobility and non-noble middle class.) Oftentimes such unmarried persons of a particular age would form an association with others of a similar situation. Generally such persons would be related, but not in all cases. (Note, by “association” I am not referring to something like the AMA, I am talking about two (or possibly three or four), individuals who were, essentially (by the standards of today) roommates. If such people were without close family, they would be perfectly capable of acting in the manner described above, possibly even choosing to be interred in the same gravesite, under a common stone.

    Hope this gives you a little insight.

    Now, is this going to to KEEP saying that I am “currently editing” for the next half hour, Deej?

  76. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Guido
    Thanks–that was much information I was not familiar with. I will no longer wonder about the gravestones as potential evidence.

    Speaking of graves, I’ve never understood how they got so many of my ancestors in the grave in Germany–it must have been really deep. They were not cremated, because I was told if my family stopped paying for it, the bones would go in a pile somewhere with other bones (must keep paying!) Now that I think about, I think they might have been buried standing up.

  77. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Leoni
    I used to know that cigarettes are called fags in Britain. Lots of British music and films. And yes, meanings change over time. However, I think it’s highly worth mentioning that a common derogatory word once meant being burned at the stake.

  78. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    My problem with thes entire incident is that this apparently happened in a PUBLIC RESTROOM. I have kids, and I really don’t think that sort of behavior is something they need to be exposed to. They have to grow up fast enough already.

    Well, there’s that, too.

    I see Barney Frank weighed in on this:

    “What he did, it’s hypocritical, but it’s not an abuse of his office in the sense that he was taking money for corrupt votes,” said Frank, D-Mass. “I think people should resign when they have clearly done the job in a way that is dishonest.”

    Actually, Barney, the police report indicates that he tried to use his position as a US Senator to influence the arresting officer’s decision to charge:

    Added Frank: “It’s one thing to say that someone can’t be trusted to vote without being corrupt, it’s another to say that he can’t be trusted to go to the bathroom by himself.”

    So we have a Senator who we ‘trust’ to make the laws for this country and we can’t trust him not to solicit anonymous sex in a men’s bathroom?

    What is it about these bathrooms?

    I mean, the last place I would find ’sexy’ would be a men’s public bathroom. Hell, I can’t think of the last time I was ever sexually aroused in my own personal bathroom.

    The sound of Sloan valves flushing just doesn’t do it for me.

    Then there was Bob Allen, the bathroom trawler of the Florida House. He was arrested last month on a charge that he offered to perform oral sex on an undercover cop and pay him $20. Later, he said that he did it because he was afraid of the other black men in the bathroom.

    I’m thinking that maybe someone is putting something in those deodorizer sprays in the public bathrooms that cause high profile, otherwise, “Not Gay” Republicans to want to perform sex acts in the bathroom all of a sudden.

    Whatever it is, you Republicans had better get to the bottom of it soon (no pun intended), because guess what city the Republican Convention is going to be in…

    :em99: