Strict Standards: Non-static method sem_admin_menu::init() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-content/plugins/sem-admin-menu/sem-admin-menu.php on line 358

Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method sem_admin_menu::ob_add_menu() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 164

Warning: ob_start(): non-static method sem_admin_menu::ob_add_menu_callback() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-content/plugins/sem-admin-menu/sem-admin-menu.php on line 86

Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method sem_admin_menu::kill_gzip() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59
Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » All That The Kossacks Are Left With…
Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::add_css() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 164

Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::add_js() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 164
You are viewing the Archives for 2007.......If you want the current page, CLICK HERE.......

…is a used condom, ruffled and stained sheets and an uncomfortably painful sphincter.

It looks like at least some of the Nutroots are beginning to realize that they’ve been had. Again.

“Why would Senate Democrats risk alienating the netroots? Why risk alienating 1.3 million passionate, activist, money contributing, MoveOn.org members?

Because you dumbfucks already handed over your bong money to them and helped them gain a majority? Because, now that you’ve done your part, they’re washing their hands of your psychotic, Marxist antics because it simply doesn’t sell very well with the American public and, after all, they have Queen Hildebeest to elect, for which they’re going to need something more than a bunch of frothing, Stalinist nutcakes?

You’re no longer of any use to them. Actually, you’re a liability. Just like your former hero, St. Sheehan of the Ditch, the one you threw under the bus when she reached her sell-by date.

Enjoy, schmucks. Couldn’t have happened to a more deserving bunch of twats.

59 Responses to “All That The Kossacks Are Left With…”
  1. BauerPower Comment by BauerPower

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Well, well well, the chickens are coming home to roost. The leftards are gonna be left out of the party after all. Take their money, use their talking points to a point, but do not hug them or let them get in photos with you. Typical Democrap maneuver. They’ve done this to the black, Hispanics, Jews, Catholics, evangelicals, old school Democrats, and other folks, why not do it to a bunch of momma’s boys and basement dwellers also? MorOn.org, Act Now, Code Pink, and the Commies while being grass roots campaigners for the party of the whacky weeds and the ganj, will not be put front and center at the DNC Convention. They’re moment in the sun will be fleeting, and they’ll be shown as insignificant by their own party.

    Ah, what poetic justice. The MorOn.org ers and their hippie parents think they’ll get a Workers Paradise (if you think your paradise is fine with a Kulak Purge, Blood Purge, gulags, etc….) but instead will get the Orwellian Distopia that they say we’re in now. No, just wait, they’ll be listed as enemies of the new state, along with Talk Radio, Drudge, The Rottie Empire, etc….. They’re just the leftwing extremists who will anger master. We’ve had master’s ire since we’ve been born. So, like most collaborators, they’ll be repaid in kindness by ill treatment from their masters, or justice from the rest of normal America.

    That is all.

  2. LC HOGHEAD II Comment by LC HOGHEAD II

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    what aggravates me is that the Kossacks will still vote Democrat regardless of what the Rats will do; yet, many Conservatives are threatening to and may sit out over the smallest thing.

  3. LC Shamalama Comment by LC Shamalama

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    moulitsas

  4. BigDogg Comment by BigDogg

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Hoghead -

    You’re complaining about conservatives standing on principles???

  5. ohio right wing nut Comment by ohio right wing nut

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    1.3 million drooling fucknozzles finally waking to hopefully figuring out all these pols want is POWER they don’t give a rats ass about you,your cause just getting and retaining power soos they can rule over us like they think that they are entitled to do.

    But what will they do when the revolution comes? they have been fighting to remove all the guns, and I for one will not protect them.

  6. LC HOGHEAD II Comment by LC HOGHEAD II

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    BIGG

    Ive got no problem with principles,EXCEPT when used to extreme. It makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to stay home and not vote for a candidate that only agrees with you 70% (rudy, Mitt,etc) of the time (because your 100% favorite didnt get the nomination (Hunter,tancredo etc)),when your actions insure the opposition (hillary) candidate with whom you agree with only 10% of the time wins.Just my two cents, but its stupid, IMHO to cut off your nose to spite your face.

    HOG

  7. LC HOGHEAD II Comment by LC HOGHEAD II

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket“>

  8. Hardclimber54 Comment by Hardclimber54

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Misha I

    Because you dumbfucks already handed over your bong money to them and helped them gain a majority? Because, now that you’ve done your part, they’re washing their hands of your psychotic, Marxist antics because it simply doesn’t sell very well with the American public

    My, my, the Emperor has a way with words, the Emperor does!!! And mark my words, these numbnuts will STILL believe they are “needed” by the same people who just dumped them out like so much stinking garbage, cuz they will NOT learn. Being laughed at, I have to guess, is the only thing they seem to understand! :em99:

    HOGHEAD II, Thank you for the picture of Hillarious Lintbrush! I will print it, enlarge it, and use it as back up tissue in my bathroom. Got to be prepared you know… Great work with the hammer and sickle, by the way. And right on target too…

  9. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Good luck on that ride through Redrim County kostards!
    ‘Good a place as any to get scalped in,,

  10. MuscleDaddy Comment by MuscleDaddy

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Damn, that was great!

    I even stuck around and read all the way through the comments - My Favorite Comment Moment:

    …I expect to see stories about them jumping out of their windows any moment. Good thing they still live in their parents basements.
    - hutch1200

    That’s a LOT of dirty Che-Jammies there, man!

    HOGHEAD,

    To quote John Stewart (one of the few times I can do that without :em38: ):

    “That look…is where boners go to die.”

    - MuscleDaddy

  11. Muzzy Comment by Muzzy

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    It should be pointed out that hardcore righties are experiencing a similar disenfranchisement. After spending eight years claiming sole credit for successive Bush victories, Christian evangelicals are suddenly waking up to the fact that Dubya has somehow forgotten to enact any of the policies traditionally thought to appeal to them. Abortion is still legal, gay marriage is becoming more and more commonplace, Terri Schiavo was mercifully spared the hideous destiny the Christian Right had selected for her, pornography is still everywhere, birth control is still widely available, more people are divorcing than ever before, so-called ‘Intelligent Design’ has been exposed as the pseudo-scientific Creationist Trojan Horse we all knew it always was, and teacher led prayer is still something of a taboo. Apart from setting aside a few extra nickels for abstinence camps, the most openly faith based American government in living memory has done absolutely nothing to satisfy the religious voters who supposedly got them elected…twice!

    The hardliners on both sides of the aisle will always get fucked over by greedy politicians desperate to win over wavering middle ground voters. This is nothing new. Come next november, those whiners at the Daily Kos will suck it up and vote for whichever Democrat happens to be running. And the hardcore righties will probably do the same for whomever is chosen to represent the Republican party. Politics isn’t an exact science, but that much can be counted on.

  12. chuck Comment by chuck

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Hoghead-
    Rudy has proven to stand for about 10% of true conservative principles and is trying to bullshit us into thinking he supports 60% more. Sorry, his word isn’t good enough when his actions have shown otherwise for far too long. If the establishment morons in the Republican party insist on crowning a northeast liberal as the nominee for President, they will lose. A Rudy nomination will guarantee a repeat of 2006. We cannot beat back liberalism and socialism by voting for a liberal socialist because there is an (R) behind his name on the ballot.

  13. Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P. Comment by Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P.

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    …is a used condom, ruffled and stained sheets and an uncomfortably painful sphincter

    And I bet they didn’t even get a kiss goodbye…

  14. tvfoh Comment by tvfoh

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Gee Muzzy,

    You Channeling Dave today?

    The thing is what us “Hardcore Righties” espouse, those things have worked every time they have been tried!

    Show me the glorious history of socialism…

    crickets chirping..

    Oh yeah, 100 Million dead a great legacy that is! other than that, the ghost of lennin and marx can go screw themselfs. and so can the Kosturds.

    TVFOH
    The View From Out Here

  15. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    If they ever managed to get rid of all the “Hardcore Righties”, who would be left to feed and support all them socialist paradise’s?

    And even more important:
    Just whom would be left to blame their failures on?

  16. Unregistered Comment by leoni2, LC

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    So, the Koskiddies are crying in their soda pop that the pols of the Democratic party have taken their money and ignored them. All I can say is, tough, idoits. Get over it, or just MoveOn! :em99:

  17. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    #3
    LC Shamalama

    :em99: :em99: :em99: :em99: :em99: :em99:

  18. Unregistered Pingback by “Netroots” starting to realize they’ve been had

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    […] was the first sign, […]

  19. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Terri Schiavo was mercifully spared the hideous destiny the Christian Right had selected for her

    How ’bout we give you the same “merciful” ending then Muzzy. On her worst day she showed more brain activity than you did with that paragraph.

  20. Unregistered Comment by marstanman

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    “is a used condom, ruffled and stained sheets and an uncomfortably painful sphincter.”
    lol, The Emperor certainly can turn a phrase….
    and how true it is. the commie bastards are shocked, SHOCKED! that mainstream dems have dropped them faster than than a bra off saggy tits at a peace rally. But don’t despair Kossacks, remember, when the socialist paradise comes to fruition, no one will need money!
    Till then the dems you elected will treat you as you should be treated. namely like the retarded cousin no one talks about.(sorry Kennedy clan)

  21. Muzzy Comment by Muzzy

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    tvfoh wrote:

    You Channeling Dave today?

    The thing is what us “Hardcore Righties” espouse, those things have worked every time they have been tried!

    Well…it’s not as if the Conservatives have no good ideas. I’m certainly down with capitalism, and of the innumerable initiatives devised by fiscal conservatives to keep the Government’s prying eyes off of ordinary people’s private affairs and allow them to take care of business, a great many are perfectly sensible. Conservative fiscal policies do work, and I generally have no problem with them. I’ve also got a lot of time for your interpretation of the whole 2nd amendment thing as well.

    However, I’m pretty sure that abstinence only sex education did very little to hasten the collapse of Communism, and I’d be most surprised to learn that a staunch objection to gay marriage played any part in the pulverisation of the Berlin Wall. And herein lies the crux of my argument. My previous post referred exclusively to Christian Conservative social policies so laughably Panglossian in their conception (so to speak) that they simply cannot work. Take abstinence only sex education as an example. It’s a perfectly lovely idea in theory, and a surefire way to prevent unwanted pregnancies and limit the transmission of STD’s. Unfortunately, the practical reality is that the overwhelming majority of ordinary people simply will not play along. Give people the choice between potentially perpetual virginity and the chance to get a quick lay, consequences be damned, and the vast preponderence of people will choose the latter each and every time.

    Having said that, however, the real-world workability of these religious social programs is actually something of a side issue. Even if we knew for certain that every religiously inspired social program would prove eminently successful, that still wouldn’t change the fact that the most openly devout American administration in living memory has spent the last seven years looking for ways not to enact them. The fervent hope of literally millions of Conservative Christians to see their facile ideas cemented into workable legislation played a major role in Bush’s two election victories. Yet in seven years Bush has given the Religious Right nothing but lip service. The Christian conservatives have been just as marginalised by the Bush administration as the Kos kids will be by the next Democratic administration. And that was really my point.

  22. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    You Channeling Dave today?

    You know, I probably could have said the same thing verbatim.

    There are people on the fringes of both parties making all of the noise out there right now about being upset that their RINOs and their DINOs “betrayed them” and left them hanging.

    Here is a newsflash for you: KOS is not mainstream, nor is NewsMax. They offer dimension to each side, but that is about it.

    Dobson et al, may or may not run a third party candidate because they will have a hard time supporting any of the current Republican runners. But I suspect they will sit this one out and hope Hillary wins because nothing will boost their movement more than a Hillary Presidency. If you think the Right was energized during the Bill Clinton years, they will be downright electrified during the Hillary years.

    But traditional Democrats and traditional Republicans will still vote for their traditional primary picks.

    This time it will be Hillary, and I will probably find reasons to disapprove.

  23. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I was entertaining similar thoughts, ohio right wing nut. The second amendment means what it says, period. Many have tried distorting it through various means, I have read many; yet courts and congress now have generally favored the right to bear arms for some years now. Thirty years ago a vastly different story, I remember those times well, all too well. Nevertheless, those seeking power at any and all costs, from the left or right, would be in for one hell of a shock seeking to force feed their doctrines to the populace. Basic human nature, in my experience, dictates a need for self-protection…..of hearth and home, friends and neighbors. My wife and I own and shoot four different guns, well, not the twelve guage so much, but the forty-fives and the .44 rifle are used regularly. As I told one man, seeking to intimate he and his would collectively take my guns….”YOU just be first in line, asshole! Just look for the house with the NRA decals next to the door locks!” I’m told I’m a good shot with my .45. There are well over a hundred million gun owners here and at least five times that many guns.” God forbid it should come to that, but as Muzzy said…….we have been used, on and by both sides, a continuing saga. I must confess to a sadistic delight in this case, though…….

  24. kwongdzu Comment by kwongdzu

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Misha and Shamalama: :em99: :em95: :em99: :em95: :em99:

  25. kwongdzu Comment by kwongdzu

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    No wait, I got that wrong: :em99: :em72: (Funny shit!)

  26. tvfoh Comment by tvfoh

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I guess what I am trying to say Muzzy is,

    History has proved over and over again that to live like there is no God (and I mean Jehovah, God of Abraham, Issac and Israel.) only makes you a fool.

    until the last 40 years here in the “colonies” our politicans may have not been Christians, but they at least knew how to respect the Christian culture of America.

    The United States Is a Federal Republic that was set up by and for Christians. Listen to the words of our founders.

    “True Religion affords to Government its surest support.” - G. Washington

    “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.” - John Quincy Adams

    “The religion of the New Testament-that religion which is founded on the teachings of Jesus Christ and his Apostles-is as sure a guide to duty in politics and legislation as in any concern in life.” - Daniel Webster

    These men that we aspire to be like as Americans knew where the power came from to stand up to the most powerful country on earth 231 years ago. Its the same place we can get it to stand up to islamafacists today if we are willing to acknowledge Him as our God.

    TVFOH
    The View From Out Here

  27. Hardclimber54 Comment by Hardclimber54

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Fanusi

    You have an amazing grasp on history! Not to add fuel to the soon-to-be fire, but I wholeheartedly agree. The Constitution was written and formatted on Reason and Common sense, not religious belief. The right to choose one own religion, or lack thereof, was also included, but obviously not as a “ruling pre-requisite”.

    tvfoh, you have the right to choose and observe ANY religion of your choice, but I am with Fanusi on this one. Sir, I am an atheist, always have been, coming from a family of free-thinkers, and it would be frowned upon if my convictions were to be pushed unto others tagged to your Constitution or our Bill of Rights. Keep it in your heart, not in the political arena, with all due respect of course.

  28. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    The glory of the United states is that it alone, out of all nations in the world, is founded on reason. That it alone enshrines in its founding documents, a view of Man’s proper place as being on Earth.

    That is utter nonsense Fanusi. Your insistence on “reason” over faith in the thinking of the Founders is fundamentally flawed. The Founders knew that if man elevated his self to the ultimate arbiter of morality, he replaces God with his self and there is no answering to a higher authority. The intrinsic beauty of our founding documents and ideology is that they recognize that government also must answer to a higher authority as established by Judeo/Christian morality. Man, in the form of government, does not bestow rights on it’s citizens, they are preexisting, endowed by God and can not be taken from an individual without sufficient cause.

    As to your claim that the Founders were “Deists”, you are again sadly mistaken, taking the beliefs of Jefferson alone and projecting them on all of the Founders, and indeed all of Colonial America. In fact, of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Episcopalians (Anglicans), eight Presbyterians, seven Congregationalists, two Dutch Reformed, two Lutherans, two Methodists, two Roman Catholics, three Deists, and one unknown. Since religious belief was taken very seriously in those days, it is impossible to imagine that a document so crucial to the patterns of life as the Constitution would not reflect a Christian outlook. It is a profoundly Christian document, and profoundly conservative as well. The framers looked to Christian teaching as their guide, not to the writings of atheistic philosophers and theorists.

    According to biblical principles, the purposes of government are threefold: 1) to restrain the exercise of sin (Rom 13:3-4); 2) to enforce God’s standards of right and wrong (Rom. 13:3-4); and 3) to maintain order so Christians and others can practice right living (1 Tim. 2:2). However, though government in principle operates by divine authority, Christians have always believed that God places limits on that authority. During the pagan empire of Rome, Nero possessed unlimited power over every living thing in his realm, at least in theory. In contrast, Christian emperors and kings recognized that their power came from God and was limited by God, and in fact many were severely chastised by church authorities when they overstepped the boundaries fixed by God.

    The framers of our American form of government sought to limit government by the supreme law of the land — the Constitution. This limitation on government power is an inherently Judeo/Christian theory.

    Cobb wrote in 1902; “If we would seek the religion of the American nation, we must look into their life, customs and institutions. Looking on these things - the innumerable Christian temples and institutions of Christian charity, the days of annual thanksgiving, the prayers in legislative halls, the Bible in the courts, the constant resort in legislation and judicature to religious and Christian principles - we may safely declare that, if the American people be not a Christian nation, there is none upon the earth. Sixty years ago wrote De Tocqueville: ‘There is no country in the whole world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America. By regulating domestic life it regulates the state. Religion is the foremost of the institutions of the country. I am certain that the Americans hold religion to be indispensable to the maintenance of the republican institutions.’ On this opinion of the acute Frenchman, the Swiss Schaff commented, fifty years later: ‘I fully agree with De Tocqueville. I came to the same conclusion shortly after my immigration to America in 1844, and I have been confirmed in it by an experience of forty-three years and a dozen visits to Europe.’”

    Sorry Fanusi, *dryly* it is you who needs to read our history a little closer.

  29. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Hardclimber

    The Constitution does not seek to impose Christianity on anyone, in fact it expressly forbids the imposition of any faith on anyone, however the fundamental philosophies on which it draws are Judeo/Christian.

    To deny this is to deny the very reason for it’s existence, which is to limit governmental authority and power.

    To formulate the Supreme Law of the Land on reason and commons sense alone means that man may deviate from it as he sees fit because he alters his reasoning and a new common sense dominates. The Constitution denies this because the underlying truth of Gods laws does not change.

    Sorry, but Fanusi’s grasp of history is limited to only that which denigrates and denies the faith of the millions before us that have shaped it.

  30. Muzzy Comment by Muzzy

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    tvfoh:

    I know you wrote your last post with the reasonable expectation that I would respond to it. However, Fanusi has said everything I would have said and more. He and I seem to concur exactly on this issue. Please take his post as a more eloquent articulation of my perspective that I am capable of composing. Thanks.

  31. Hardclimber54 Comment by Hardclimber54

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    0311 Crunchie

    The Constitution does not seek to impose Christianity on anyone, in fact it expressly forbids the imposition of any faith on anyone

    My point exactly Crunchie. Your Founding Fathers did specify a separation of church and state, and the role of Christianity is NOT denied. But, as Fanusi so eloquently stated, was not to be used as a basis for government. This does not, in my opinion, denigrate of demean the beliefs of millions, or those of just a few, it guarantees that whatever belief you choose to have or not have is your choice, and your choice alone. Biblical law was not, again, the basis for the form of government put together by these men, Common sense and Reason were. The fact that the citizens were given free choice in their religious beliefs is not a form of government, but a form of liberty

  32. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    1.) Some quotes please, to back this up.

    The Declaration, the Constitution, The Federalists Papers, in toto. I don’t cherrypick certain quotes of the founders, I read their writings and treatises en masse to get their beliefs.

    The vision of the Enlightenment was of Man as God.

    So Fanusi, then being an athiest and a worshiper of the Enlightenment, then you don’t believe in yourself. If the Enlightenment saw man as God, then that was a view of the Enlightenment the Founders did not share. They knew the evil that man was capable of, and knew that government, being an institution made by and of men, could also be capable of great evil, and therefore in need of restraints.

    But that doesn’t change the fact that the founding documents of America are all based on the Enlightenment.

    Um no, they were based on 5,000 years of human existence (including the enlightenment), as studied by the Founders, and the application of the lessons learned. Unless of course you are now going to claim that Moses, Demosthesene, Cicero, and Plato were all 15th century Venicians or Neopolitans.

    In practice, the Christian Church was so successful in preaching the doctrine that life didn’t matter, that if ten thousand died in an outbreak of plague, or warring between two dukes, it was accepted as the norm. Because it was largely the norm, and the times when this worldview held sway is rightly known as the Dark Ages.

    The church preached, and preaches, that the suffering here does not matter, for that if you lead a righteous life in the face of suffering you will be blessed and your burden lifted in the after life. The church most definitely did not state that human life didn’t matter, the sanctity of life has been one of the bedrocks of the Christian church since it’s beginning. Hate to burst your bubble here, but The Dark Ages didn’t magically appear because the Pope snapped his fingers. They were caused by barbarians destroying the Roman Empire. And it was the same church you so gleefully mock that saved the collected knowledge of the ancient Greeks and others that made the Enlightenment possible.

    I intensely dislike this accusation.

    Tough, I intensely dislike the arrogant contempt you display towards any man of faith. Is that a product of the Enlightenment too, or just natural snottiness.

    Facts are facts.

    Yes they are.

    If the facts paint an unflattering picture of Christianity during the Dark Ages,

    I thought we were discussing the religious beliefs of the Founders, not the Dark Ages.

    and if the facts were that the founders - those that actually mattered, in that their opinions were those that shaped the documents that founded the US - were deists, then these are the facts.

    So, Fanusi has decreed that out of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, and out of the collected beliefs of approximately 2 million Americans, the opinions of only three matter. I must have missed that part of the Federalist Papers where lightning flies from Jefferson’s fingerprints and he decrees that all Americans shall believe as he believes and the votes and signatures and debates of the other founders are null and void.

    Here Fanusi, since your vastly superior intellect must have missed it, this thread was hijacked when you claimed the Founders “were deists”. I posted the facts that only three were Deists and listed the particular Christian denomination of all of them. Based on that, back up your claim that the Founders “were Deists” and deny that the founding documents do not embrace the Judeo/Christian tenets I described.

    1. Does or does not the Declaration state that mans rights are granted by God?
    2. Does or does not the Constitution place limits on governmental power?
    3. Where or where not the overwhelming majority of the Founding Fathers Christians?

    Given that the Bible calls for the death penalty for apostasy, for blasphemy, for breaking the sabbath and so on, and that the First Amendment specifically forbids this kind of nonsense, I think it is fairly clear that the Founders were not particularly interested in enforcing Biblical Law.

    Never said they did. (BTW, those tenets of Biblical Law are Old Testament, not New. There is a difference). Stop inferring so much into a simple statement. It says “enforce Gods standards of right and wrong”. Thats a far cry from enforcing Biblical law.

  33. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Hardclimber

    Your Founding Fathers did specify a separation of church and state,

    Actually no they didn’t. They prevented the establishment of a state religion. No where in the Constitution is there a separation of church and state.

    Biblical law was not, again, the basis for the form of government put together by these men,

    Never said it was. I said Judeo/Christian tenets and beliefs were.

    The fact that the citizens were given free choice in their religious beliefs is not a form of government, but a form of liberty

    Agree 100%. But the basic tenets of individual liberty and worth, of government restraint, of recognition of the evil men and government were capable of, those are Judeo/Christian tenets, and those are the bedrock of the Declaration and the Constitution.

  34. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    this thread was hijacked when you claimed the Founders “were deists”. I posted the facts that only…

    Just to be clear, that’s not an accusation of hijacking. I should have said “we hijacked this thread”.

  35. Muzzy Comment by Muzzy

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    L.C. Crunchie wrote:

    The church preached, and preaches, that the suffering here does not matter, for that if you lead a righteous life in the face of suffering you will be blessed and your burden lifted in the after life.

    Heh, yeah. They should make a billboard. I can see it now.

    Christianity: Satisfaction guaranteed or your autopsy’s free!

  36. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    That was actually amusing Muzzy.

  37. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    US Constitution, first amendment (partial)

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

    *emphasis mine.

    There is no Constitutional separation of church and state. IIRC, that came from the Federalist Papers, and I don’t recall those being part of the Constitution. Most of our government today seems to overlook the second part…

  38. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Skyechild

    IIRC, that came from the Federalist Papers,

    Actually it came form a letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists, stating that the Establishment Clause guaranteed them freedom of worship.

  39. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    All the establishment clause is saying is that the feds are prohibited from declaring a national religion (like the church of England did), although I see Islam being embraced as the national religion in the not-so-distant future.

  40. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Jefferson? And here all this time everyone thought it was James Madison who authored it…

    http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2004_spr/blasi.htm

  41. Radical Redneck Comment by Radical Redneck

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Christianity: Satisfaction guaranteed or your autopsy’s free!

    No it’s YOUR autopsy, not mine. As exposers and spreaders of the REAL religion, the satisfaction, etc, reveled by YOUR heroes, not mine. Like Castro, Chavez, Hitlery, etc…

    Sad.

  42. Xystus Comment by Xystus

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    The vision of the Enlightenment was of Man as God.

    Allow me to muddy the waters for everyone by introducing “Field’s Theory of the Relationship of Man to the Universe”–which is at least approximately what its author called it. He was an English-lit prof (yes, his name was Field) & introduced it to a class I was in around 30 years ago. He illustrated his theory with a series of crude figures of different sizes on the chalkboard; they represented different Western historical eras’ view of man’s importance. The Classical (Greco-Roman) outlook actually came closest to F. K.’s notion of “Man as [g]od.” It seems the ancient Greeks didn’t draw a very sharp line between human & divine, & even the Romans deified some political figures. (Nowadays, of course, we demonize ‘em! :em93: ) In the Medieval period the human becomes relatively insignificant, but the Rennaissance inflates his size back to Classical dimensions. Coming to the Enlightenment, Dr. Field drew a uniquely middle-sized figure, standing for what we might call a “moderate,” “balanced” or “reasonable” concept of man’s place in the world. Man wasn’t G-d but reflected his Maker’s qualities & had a worthy part to play on earth. This is maybe where the ridiculed idea of “the best of all possible worlds” (Leibniz?) appears. One might even claim the Founders were trying to construct the best of all possible governments! It may be that this was the only era in which they could’ve made a workable USA.

    If anybody cares, the Field Theory brings back both the big & little guys in the 19th century–simultaneously. Science & technology give humans some “godlike” powers but make them out to be unimportant inhabitants of the cosmos. Gotta leave it there for now….

  43. tvfoh Comment by tvfoh

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    To Fanusi Khiyal,

    Not answering to higher authority is the Lie the serpent sold to Eve. “If you eat of the tree you will be LIKE GOD” emphasis mine.

    We know how that turned out.

    I have a simplistic way to show that there are no atheists. A god is what you believe is in control of your life, (Jesus, nature, fate, etc..) If you believe that nothing is in control, then YOU are in control of your life so, you are your god. Hence no atheists.

    I submit that the enlightenment was the devil trying to hijack the Reformation. The reformation was the awaking of people to the biblical truth of salvation by faith. Faith is proven by works not the other way around. The reformation destroyed over a thousand years of rule by a church that said it was the sole arbiter of a man’s faith. It was the publishing of the Bible in the common language that showed the simplicity of Gods plan. Not the traditions of men that Jesus spoke out against. Great you got me showing my protestant roots.

    Enlightenment is men saying “see how smart I am.” They don’t want to admit there is a superior creator, because if you do that, then you realize you owe him something, and your pride of being intelligent gets in the way of that. The Gnostics of Alexandria and Greece were an example of that. They believed that Men are divine spirits stuck in a material world created by an imperfect spirit, they usually accused the Jewish God of being that imperfect spirit.

    My quote was not from John Adams the second president but his son John Quincy Adams the sixth president. I found the quote in Christian life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States by B. F. Morris printed in 1864 it was a quote on the title page of the book. I’m not sure what speech it came from.

    Now to point out some examples of God in the founding of America, from the Declaration of Independence.

    that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; ( Creator does not refer to monkeys or the colonists parents) It refers to a being greater than a man.

    with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence ( They admit that they rely on a power greater than that of a Man)

    Crunchie and others have talked about the Constitution so I won’t drag that out.

    But I would like to also point out a work of Samuel Adams The Rights of the Colonists written November 20th 1772.

    “Just and true liberty, equal and impartial liberty” in matters spiritual and temporal, is a thing that all Men are clearly entitled to, by the eternal and immutable laws Of God and nature, as well as by the law of Nations, & all well grounded municipal laws, which must have their foundation in the former.—

    He is stating that all National and municipal laws Must have their foundation in the laws of God and nature (which he created) for true liberty.
    Here is a more interesting idea he put forth in this work. I’m keeping the original spelling on this section.

    In regard to Religeon, mutual tolleration in the different professions thereof, is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practiced; and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind: And it is now generally agreed among christians that this spirit of toleration in the fullest extent consistent with the being of civil society “is the chief characteristical mark of the true church” & In so much that Mr. Lock has asserted, and proved beyond the possibility of contradiction on any solid ground, that such toleration ought to be extended to all whose doctrines are not subversive of society. The only Sects which he thinks ought to be, and which by all wise laws are excluded from such toleration, are those who teach Doctrines subversive of the Civil Government under which they live. The Roman Catholicks or Papists are excluded by reason of such Doctrines as these “that Princes excommunicated may be deposed, and those they call Hereticks may be destroyed without mercy; besides their recognizing the Pope in so absolute a manner, in subversion of Government, by introducing as far as possible into the states, under whose protection they enjoy life, liberty and property, that solecism in politicks, Imperium in imperio leading directly to the worst anarchy and confusion, civil discord, war and blood shed—

    At the time this was written, those were the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Get that America, is OK not to be tolerant of a religion that seeks to subject us by force. islamofacists may not apply for citizenship here. Muslims may if they won’t convert or kill us. Tolerance is extended to the tolerant only.

    In the state of nature, every man is under God

    Does it sound like Sam thinks he is God?

    “The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man; but only to have the law of nature for his rule.”—

    Again, law of nature (nature created by God) is supreme. If you do not count man and then look at all the order in natures intertwined systems and think that it was not created by something greater than what we understand, then you are hopelessly confused.

    I hope that this answers your criticisms of me and the place of faith in the founding of America.

    TVFOH
    The View From Out Here

  44. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Fanusi:

    I watch these arguments as they evolve with some small ammusment, usually, and don’t often get into the middle of the fray. I would make an exception here, if I may.

    You argue that there is no “Higher Power” to which we are all eventually accountable. As you have no doubt noted, this argument is rather strongly rejected by most of the regulars. Some do so out of belief, some (like muself, for instance) out of what we consider personal proof of God’s Divine Providence and Mercy.

    I suggest, sir, that you may be tilting at windmills on this subject?

    The Dark Ages were not the mistake of God, but the mistake of mortal men. The travesties and atrocities can be laid at our feet, not His. We do not know or understand His mind, and only dimly appreciate His Law. Otherwise, we would all be perfect, right?

    You have amply proven that you are very knowledgable, and able to argue your points, but I do not believe you will be able to convince this audience.

    Nor do I believe we will convince you.

    In any event, we will all know the Truth, one way or another, quite soon enough. Meanwhile, I will continue to ask God for his blessings for you and yours. As my Faith requires.

  45. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I am reminded once again how difficult it is to get any kind of rational conversation on these matters.

    And I am reminded what a condescending ass you can be.

    I should have liked a few quotations when you asked for them.

    I’m going to assume that you are attempting to chastise me for not providing quotes. Since you apparently don’t understand what…

    The Declaration, the Constitution, The Federalists Papers, in toto. I don’t cherrypick certain quotes of the founders, I read their writings and treatises en masse to get their beliefs.

    means, here are some “quotes”. They’re kind of long and you’ll have to go to the library to find them.

    The Federalist Papers
    - Hamilton, Madison, and Jay
    Jefferson & Madison - Koch
    The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution - Bailyn
    The Framing & the Fathers of the United Sates Constitution - Farrand
    Two Treatises on Government - Locke
    Fifty-five Men - Rodell
    The Foundations of American Constitutionalism - McLaughlin
    On the Constitution of the United States - Story
    Commentaries on the Laws of England - Blackstone
    Democracy in America - De Tocqueville

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…

    I’m not sure what your point is in emphasizing “respecting”. The establishment clause states Congress shall not institute a national religion. Jefferson however had no problem allowing state governments to continue the practice of religious qualification for office holders, practiced by 11 of the 13 states. Jefferson saw the prohibition of state instituted religion as a Federal issue, and left the issue of religion exclusively to the states. So while President Jefferson refused to proclaim a day of religious thanksgiving, Governor Jefferson had no such reservation, doing so in 1782.

    this is what the author of this, Thomas Jefferson, had to say:

    Fanusi, you dare to admonish tvfoh to learn our history, and yet you ignorantly claim Jefferson authored the 1st Amendment? Madison wrote the Bill of Rights, not Jefferson. In fact, Jefferson was not even a delegate to the Constitutional Convention and had no input on it’s wording.

    not blindfolded alleigance to scripture.

    When did I claim the Founders were acting out of a “blind faith to scripture”? I stated, succinctly, and correctly, that the tenets of individual worth and restraint on government, were Judeo/Christian beliefs upon which the Founders drew to shape the framework of the American Republic.

    you have danced around my point with those questions.

    No I haven’t. Your original point, that I countered, was that the Founders were deists, which as I have shown they were not. In fact, 51 of the 55 delegates were practicing Christians and active parishioners. My whole point is that the vast majority of the Founders were well educated Christians, and that their Christianity shaped their views and opinions of governance. I have not once tried to claim Jefferson or Franklin were not deists. I know that Jefferson was, and that Franklin toyed with it, although some of his later writings hinted at a Christian belief in his old age. You meanwhile have sought to characterize Jefferson as the only Founder of any consequence. Our Constitution was not written by one man, but by a Delegation of 55 men, of which Jefferson was not one. And though he wrote the Declaration, it was edited by the 2nd Continental Congress and reflected the values of an overwhelmingly Christian nation.

    You make the assumption that ‘God’ must mean the Judeo/Christian Yahweh, instead of the deist abstraction of ‘God’.

    Yes I do. An assumption based on the fact that when an 18th century American spoke of God, he meant the Judeo/Christian God.

    You ask whether the majority of the Founding Fathers - I assume you mean the signatories to the Declaration - were Christians. Damned if I know, and, as I said before, who cares?

    I meant the signers of both the Declaration and the Constitution, which if you had read my comment’s you would have known. Then you say “Who Cares?” That’s the whole POINT of this little conversation Fanusi. You claimed the Founders were deists, I said they were not, they were Christians. And you still haven’t answered the question, except to say you don’t know. Kind of makes my point when I rebutted your statement that the Founders were deists.

    The question is what the views were of those who were active in framing the founding principles of America: Jefferson, Paine, Franklin and so on.

    You left out a few. How about Washington, Madison, Jay, Hamilton, Hancock, Henry et al. All who were equally influential on developing our founding principles. And while we’re at it, how about those who influenced them? Locke, Blackstone, Aristotle, Cicero, Livy, Tacitus, Machiavelli, Socrates, Herodotus, Plato, Alexander the Great, St. Augustus, Augustine, St. Thomas of Aquinas, and Christ, just to name a few.

    I am far more interested in what Jefferson wrote about religioln than what Lyman Hall, to just pull one name out of a hat here, did, and, this is key, so is everyone else.

    You presume to know what everyone else here wants eh? How…reasonable of you.

    But when Jefferson is the one who actually gets to write the First Amendment, and get’s to chase away people who want to add bits about Christ to the document,…

    Your ignorance is showing yet again. Madison wrote the 1st Amendment, not Jefferson. And since Jefferson wasn’t even present at the Convention, and their deliberations and debate were secret, I doubt he “chased away” anyone.

    whose opinion matters? Who, in fact, is holding all the cards?

    The 55 actual delegates who debated and ratified the Constitution?

    If Christianity is so central to the constitution, why is it that America is, I repeat, the only country in the world with no established state religion?

    See the Establishment Clause. While Christianity was a prime factor in the principles of our Republic, the Founders refused to trample state or individual rights by establishing a national religion. They believed strongly in freedom of conscience.

    And, as a request, please don’t quote mythical nonsense at me, because I have a shelf full of it, and if we are going to start throwing these things at each other, I have more to throw.

    You mean mythical nonsense such as the Founders were deists or that Jefferson wrote the 1st Amendment. Yeah you’re right, you have a lot of it to throw.

  46. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Fanusi

    Thomas Jefferson was the author of the Virginia law on religious freedom, upon which the religious freedom aspect of the First was grounded.

    Sorry, but that’s not what you said;

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…

    Emphasis mine. And if you think I’m playing gotcha, this is what the author of this, Thomas Jefferson,

    But when Jefferson is the one who actually gets to write the First Amendment, and get’s to chase away people who want to add bits about Christ to the document, whose opinion matters?

    You stated unequivocally twice that Jefferson authored the 1st Amendment. He did not. Now you try to lie and say that wasn’t what you said?

    Crunchie you once again bring up a rather long list of documents, sans any quotations from them that would make your point.

    As I stated before, I don’t cherry pick quotes. I read the Founders as a whole. But, since you are so hung up on quotes, here are a few.

    John Adams and John Hancock
    :
    “We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!” [April 18, 1775]

    John Adams:

    “The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

    Samuel Adams:

    “He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [“American Independence,” August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

    “Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

    John Quincy Adams:

    “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?”

    “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity”?
    –1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

    Benjamin Franklin:
    “God governs in the affairs of man. (Not exactly the views of a deist, as I understand them) And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

    “In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]
    In Benjamin Franklin’s 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach “the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.”
    In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as “a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone.”

    Alexander Hamilton
    :

    Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
    (1) Christianity
    (2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
    “The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”
    On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”
    “For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests.” [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
    “I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man.”

    John Hancock:

    “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
    “A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775″

    Patrick Henry:

    This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
    —The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
    “It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
    “The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”
    John Jay:
    “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816.
    James Madison;

    “We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”
    “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

    “I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temporal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.”
    Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
    In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
    “An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress
    “It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”
    At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
    “For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
    the LORD is our king;
    He will save us.”

    And since you seem to be claiming that Jefferson’s deism made him inherently anti-Christian, here’s a few from him;

    “The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
    “Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
    “I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.”
    “God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (Excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nation’s capital)
    Now I am not claiming that Jefferson believed in the Divinity of Christ, however he was not as dismissive of Christianity as you have portrayed.

    I am unwilling to wade through that kind of textual mass for the purposes of a blog discussion.

    Then perhaps you should, for your own “enlightenment”. Then perhaps you wouldn’t be quite as ignorant of our Founders.

    Moving onward, you say that I consider Thomas Jefferson the only one who mattered; this is facile, since I have already brought up the other major figures,

    I don’t believe that word means quite what you think it does. Facile adj. 1. easily done, used, etc. a facile task, facile methods 2. moving, acting, working, etc with ease; 3. of easy manners or temper; agreeable; yielding: Sarah’s facile nature readily adapted itself to any company.

    since I have already brought up the other major figures, such as Thomas Paine, author of “The Age of Reason”, and John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin, and so on.

    THE other major figures huh? What about these other giants of the Constitution Washington, Madison, Jay, Hamilton, Hancock, Henry et al.

    You mention Thomas Paine’s “Age of Reason”, I’m assuming to try and claim that that attack on organized Christianity and the divinity of the Bible had an impact on our Founders when they wrote the Constitution. Yet it wasn’t written until 1794, 7 years AFTER the ratification. Ex Post Facto impact perhaps?

    Then there’s Washington, and I have real trouble finding any positive endorsement of Christianity;

    You are seriously questioning Washington’s Christian faith based on Bishop White’s complaint that he was reserved in his worship. Washington was one of the most devout of our Founders. I have read many accounts written by his soldiers talking about his hours spent in prayer and how it inspired them. Here, some more of those quotes you love so much, this time from George Washington;

    From his farewell address; The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion” …and later: “…reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle…”

    “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
    “What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [Speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
    “To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian” [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
    During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

    in accord with the - still undefined in this debate, I might add - Christian principles.

    Still undefined?! How many times do I have to say it? Are you even reading this? Again for the umpteenth time, the principle that each man has worth, and that government must be restrained. Here are a few of the appropriate Bible versus, Rom 13:3-4, Rom. 13:3-4, and 1 Tim. 2:2. Since you say you are reading it now, maybe you can look them up yourself.

    Jefferson was hardly an insignificant figure

    Never said he was. I just said he wasn’t the only Founder of influence.

    being the author of, in addition that which I have aleady mentioned, the preamble to the declaration of Independence.

    Actually he wrote the entire Declaration. Will you do a little research please?

    Lastly, this discussion started when you incorrectly claimed “the founders were deists”. I said they were not, they were Christians. If they were all deists and not Christians as you claim, why would they end the Constitution thusly?

    Done in Convention, by the unanimous consent of the States present, the seventeenth day of September, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-seven, and of the Independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our Names.

  47. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Give it up, Fanusi, you’re not going to win this one. And I don’t say that “just” because Crunchie knows the Founders and their writings inside out as is quite evident, I say it because it’s a debate that has been going on over here ever since “certain circles” in society decided to interpret the Founders’ devotion to Freedom of Religion as a desire to create Freedom from Religion.

    Something that would have been odd to say the very least since a large number of them had fled Europe because they weren’t allowed to worship as they wished over there. Notice that it wasn’t because they weren’t allowed to not worship.

    It’s an even more absurd claim when one then, as easy as anything, can find hundreds of quotes where the Founders invoke G-d, Christ and Christianity in general, something you’d hardly expect from a bunch of agnostics, “deists” and atheists, no?

    The one thing the Founders were concerned about, and that’s what’s being constantly and deliberately misinterpreted by people such as yourself, was that the almighty Fed should one day make the same mistake that most other nations had made, namely to institute a national religion. Their hostility was entirely directed at the notion that some future government should, one day, decide that everybody had to be Lutherans or that, at the very least, Lutherans would be the “official” and subsidized religion of these United States of America. Or Baptists. Or Methodists. Or, or, or…

    Their contention wasn’t that religion shouldn’t be present in the public square, you’ll find not ONE quote supporting that interpretation, it was that no religion in particular should ever become the “preferred” one.

    And, in this, they were nothing short of brilliant, as I can attest to. Nothing has contributed more to the miserable state of Christianity in Europe today than state religions. When you’re automatically born with a “religion by default”, then religion ceases to hold value at all. When no thinking and searching is involved, then what you find at the end of the rainbow won’t mean very much to you.

    But do carry on if you must, Fanusi. I always find these debates amusing, if for nothing else then because I’m sure that the Founders are laughing their butts off in Heaven over them, right now.

  48. Muzzy Comment by Muzzy

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I’m always rather perplexed when I read the words of men steeped in scholarship splitting hairs down to the atom over the “real” thoughts and intentions of a bunch of guys who lived about 300 years ago. I mean, how do we know that these people would have even contemplated writing the First Amendment if they could have foreseen the internet. They might well have decided that a crackdown on freedom of speech might be a rather good idea. Then where would we be?

    I couldn’t care less if Thomas Jefferson was a Deist, an Atheist, a Fundamentalist Snake Handler or a fucking Moonie. I don’t care *how* many of the Founding Fathers secretly yearned to establish a Christian Theocracy. None of that matters one single iota. It’s a completely academic discussion. The fact of the matter is that commingling religion and government simply doesn’t work. You show me a country governed according to religious principles, and I’ll show you a shithole. End of.

  49. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    (myself and Crunchie - n.b. should I include the LC, and I am not sure what that means)

    It means “Loyal Citizen” and is something that you grab for yourself if you feel that the particular shoe fits, the philosophy behind it being a “claim it if you believe it’s yours” title being that nobody who didn’t believe that would voluntarily claim it for his or her own. Also, it tends to tick off and frustrate people who hate everything having to do with this site and it’s great fun to boot ;-)

    If you were to ask me if it fit you, I’d answer with a “definitely!” Why? Well, expressing sentiments like this one:

    Be that as it may, as I said before, I have to say what I consider the truth, to the full extent and capacity to do so.

    …is really what this site is all about and, even though we have most certainly disagreed and continue to disagree on a quite fundamental level on some subjects, I have never known you to NOT present your case in a thoughtful, reasoned manner (OK, with a bit of snark here and there, but that, too, is what this site is all about :D ).

    *nods* I’ll grant you that. Certain cynics have made the point that if you wanted to torpedo American Christianity, you should lobby to have it made a state religion. It’s amazing what the prefix ‘public’ does, isn’t it?

    It is indeed. Which is one of the reasons why I, as a Christian, would be as rock solidly against making Christianity, ANY denomination thereof, the official state religion here.

    Au, contraire Misha. This is petty on my part, but here is what Madison had to say:

    And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together

    Not petty at all, Fanusi. I don’t agree, but it’s a perfect example of just how we end up disagreeing on this subject the way we do. You see, the funny thing is that we agree on the level that matters, which is what Madison, I humbly submit, meant to say when he said that: Government shouldn’t be peddling in religion. I agree. We have churches for that, and that’s where it belongs. But this is a far cry from saying that all expression being remotely connected to anything religious should be forbidden to politicians which is where “your side”, I once again humbly submit, tend to extrapolate the Founders’ thoughts quite a bit.

    And they made that quite clear by saying “Congress shall make no law…” They didn’t say “Congress shall make no mention of.” Also, when they wrote that we should have no religious tests for office, they didn’t mean that no religious people need apply, they meant that it didn’t matter what you believed or not believed as far as eligibility for office is concerned. Again: If they had meant for religious thought and sentiment to be banned entirely from the public square, they would have said so.

    Of course, if they had said so they would have been blitheringly insane. Your religion is as much a part of your thought process as any other belief you might hold. You can’t just yank it out of yourself when you speak in public because it is part of who you are, just as it would make absolutely no sense to say “no mention of a belief in free market capitalism is allowed in the public square.” Such a ban limits thought rather than frees it, which would, ironically, be exactly the opposite of what the Age of Reason is all about. In other words, you’d be saying that the Founders were motivated by a desire to make political discourse and thought as open as possible (which is correct), while at the same time banning one entire school of thought from the marketplace of ideas. And that’s not even mentioning that it would be a school of thought to which the vast majority of them adhered.

    I suppose it’s because some people on the agnostic/atheist side are nervous that we Christians would start basing every law on the Bible, no discussion allowed. If so, don’t worry. You couldn’t get enough Christians to agree on what the Bible said to make that happen. Last I checked, we had roughly 7,265 denominations in this country, and they all disagree vehemently on at least ONE subject ;-)

    And even if they could, they’d find themselves up against Christians such as myself who wouldn’t allow it on general principle, and I dare anyone to question my Christianity.

    Anyway, back to the subject: I find it funny that we disagree so much when, at the bottom of it, we are actually in full agreement. I don’t want to live in a country run by clerics any more than you do. And it doesn’t matter to me whether they be Christian clerics or atheist ones. I don’t mind atheists in government, if their constituents want an atheist there, then it’s their democratic right, as long as they don’t base their legislation on their established “fact” that G-d doesn’t exist. I don’t mind atheists in government arguing that it is “inappropriate” to have the word G-d in the Pledge, it is their right to have that opinion, and if they can find enough voters that agree with them, then they can have it removed. I won’t like it, but this country isn’t run according to what I want. It’s We the People, not Me the People. What I DO mind is them claiming that it is inappropriate because “the Constitution says that we can’t”, because it doesn’t. Nowhere. That’s a poppycock argument, indicative of no intelligent thought processes inside the skull of the one making it.

    And I don’t like religious dogma, even when it comes from people who claim not to have one.

  50. jaybear Comment by jaybear

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Muzzy sez:

    I couldn’t care less if Thomas Jefferson was a Deist, an Atheist, a Fundamentalist Snake Handler or a fucking Moonie. I don’t care *how* many of the Founding Fathers secretly yearned to establish a Christian Theocracy. None of that matters one single iota. It’s a completely academic discussion. The fact of the matter is that commingling religion and government simply doesn’t work. You show me a country governed according to religious principles, and I’ll show you a shithole. End of.

    well though out and well said Muzzy, however….

    I think that those “certain unalienable rights” that our founding fathers spoke about carry extra importance when they are endowed by someone other than some politician. When they’re endowed by “Our Creator” then that means that we are born with them, not presented with them by a court or a judge.

    Applied properly, like in this nation, God and religion can play a very positive role. Faith in a higher power deflates ones image of oneself as superior…something MOST of our decision makers today could desperately use. The founding fathers had little faith in mans ability to establish a free republic, they believed that their mission was divinely inspired. What distinguishes them from people like Innocent III or bin laden or ahmadinejad is that they didn’t believe that they were empowered to set up a Papal nation or a caliphate. They were too humble for that, they believed in the free will of men and believed that men were blessed by God to think and live on their own, free of the encumbrances of a state dominated by a church or religion.

    I believe that the experiment of One Nation Under God works pretty damned well over here. It’s only when our elected representatives start seeing themselves as minor deities that things go awry…..