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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » Fat-Nazis on the Prowl in New Zealand
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Too high of a BMI? Forget about moving to New Zealand, then (link thanks to Sir Christopher):

British citizens Rowan Trezise, 33, and Richie Trezise, 35, are living apart as she tries desperately to shed the pounds needed to comply with New Zealand guidelines that immigrants maintain a healthy BMI, or body mass index.

BMI is a weight-height ratio that estimates percentage of body fat. The New Zealand Immigration Service requires all applicants to undergo a complete medical examination, which includes body size measures like “waist circumference.”

Next, they’ll be denying entrance to spouses who smoke, spouses with asthma and spouses voting to the right of Josef Stalin.

The regulations were supposedly put into place for budget reasons. The country’s health care system cannot afford to open its doors to overweight immigrants, a spokesman for New Zealand’s Fight the Obesity Epidemic explained to the Daily Mail.

Another wondrous bonus gift that comes with socialized healthcare: Pretty soon, the “free” healthcare will be rationed off to only those individuals approved by the Almighty State. Of course, the fact that you can’t GET the “free” healthcare because you’re not a government-approved specimen of the human race doesn’t mean that you won’t have to PAY for it via your taxes.

First, they came for the fatties, but I wasn’t fat so I didn’t stand up…

Oh, and other than that the BMI is a certified crock. Not the way it’s calculated, but the way the “approved range” is defined by the Powers that Be. Just like the “approved cholesterol range” which has magically changed downward every time the pharmaceutical companies have come out with a new statin drug or just didn’t like their volume of sale.

Oh yes, nationalized healthcare is a wonderful idea. Under that, the government gets to define who gets to go to the doctor and when, and we all know that the government is only here to help, right?

77 Responses to “Fat-Nazis on the Prowl in New Zealand”
  1. Sir Christopher Comment by Sir Christopher

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    this story dovetails with it SO well:

    UK Fat Patients Claim Discrimination

  2. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Some health insurance companies in this country use the BMI as a reason to deny claims or coverage. This isn’t the government, this is your private insurance carriers.

    But read the article here a little closer: it only pertains to immigrants to New Zealand, not the people who are already citizens.

    Don’t you want immigants to this country learn English and the American way of life? Why shouldn’t New Zealanders expect the same of their immigrants?

  3. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

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    I’m about 40 pounds overweight, but according to the guidelines of the US, I would be considered morbidly
    obese. Those BMI indexes, IMO, are a joke. And learning English is way different from mandating how much someone can/should weigh.

  4. Unregistered Comment by Quilly Mammoth

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    I don’t know how concerned I am about New Zealand when in Boston the Beantown Brownshirts want people to submit to warrant less searches for the purposes of confiscating guns. Constitution? We don’t need no stinkin Constitution.

  5. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon

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    Deej, Deej, is it just a habit or what that you so reflexively attempt to defend indefensible communist crap with OFF TOPIC stuff that is totally unrelated? We’re talking about GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE in New Zealand. You bring up insurance in America. That has absolutely NO relationship to the topic at hand. All you accomplish is to prove that insurance in America is screwed up too… and it wasn’t like we didn’t already know that…

    And yeah SkyeChild there is an ENORMOUS difference between weight and language.

    RH

  6. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    Some health insurance companies in this country use the BMI as a reason to deny claims or coverage.

    So? I’ve seen patients denied insurance coverage on the basis of an elevated CEA, a test that should never be used as a blanket screening measure.

    BMI, it turns out, has less utility for predicting obesity-related disease than waist circumference (WC), something we’ve known for some time. (Better to be a “pear” than an “apple” — at least from the standpoint of where you carry your fat.) Here’s a central point:

    The main finding in this large-scale study is that accurately measured percent fat overall is not associated as strongly as WC with indicators of obesity-related health risks.

    Now, New Zealand can do whatever it pleases. But here’s the inequity: I’m 6′4″, 220 pounds and my BMI is 27 — overweight, but not obese. I’d qualify for immigration and I’ve never had a bit of difficulty qualifying for health and life insurance.

    However, I have a strong family history of coronary artery disease and diabetes. I work out routinely and take three medications to address my horrid-looking lipid profile and my hypertension. I can point you in the direction of any number of obese individuals who don’t share my concerns. Perhaps the Kiwis should demand a family history and DNA sample (to be evaluated for diabetes, hyperlipidemia, alcoholism and other risk markers) and stratify exclude on that basis.

    It seems more scientific and fair. After all, the problem with eugenics was that they just didn’t have adequate technology to make it work back then.

    Anything to make the Das Volk more gesund must be a good idea.

  7. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Skyechild
    The people that really skew off the scale are people like bodybuilders that have a lot of muscle.

  8. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Moriarty
    Thanks for your technical comments, but you’re creeping me out at the bottom there!

  9. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    PC,

    The Slippery Slope Fallacy is only a fallacy when we stipulate that other side is rational, honest and will act with integrity. (… something Neville Chamberlain should have borne in mind…) Governments seldom make the grade.

    If you want to become completely creeped out, get a copy of The Nazi Doctors . (Bet ya didn’t know that the death camp killings were all medically-supervised “euthanasias” carried out in the name of “racial hygene.”)

    Just “doctor’s orders”, all it was…

  10. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    hygiene

    PIMF.

  11. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

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    Don’t you want immigants [sic] to this country learn English and the American way of life? Why shouldn’t New Zealanders expect the same of their immigrants?

    :em72:

    :em98:

    C’mon, Dave. You know that that’s equating beans to bananas. Wouldn’t this be a “racist” policy towards, say, Samoans, as opposed to Ethiopians?

    I know that you’re probably just trying to play Lucifer’s Barrister™ here, but at least try not to be so transparent.

  12. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Moriarty
    Thanks! I have a big stack of books threatening to fall over and kill me, but this looks really important. It’s tempting just to order it from Amazon. Spouse runs a large bookstore and gets a big discount, but getting him to get anything for me is liking pulling teeth. I think I’ll go with Amazon.

    No I didn’t know that, either. Yuch.

  13. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    That has absolutely NO relationship to the topic at hand.

    Au contraire, mon frère. You are against Government health care and are using the actions of New Zealand as yet another reason to dislike it. I get that.

    I only pointed out that under our current system of health care for the sake of profit, people are routinely denied health care for the same reasons. So yes, there is a distinct relationship here. We do it under our private, HMO for profit system, they do it under their government-run system. It isn’t a “gotcha” reason to dislike a government-run health care system. I am sure you could find another reason, but this isn’t one of them.

    As far as my comment about YOU wanting immigrants to conform to values, practices and customs of Americans, New Zealanders also have the right to require immigrants to their country conform to values practices and customs there. If you want me to give a health related example, then I could do that as well. We turn down people coming into this country for a myriad of health reasons.

    In this particular story though, if you want to take advantage of New Zealand’s government-provided health care, as an immigrant, then you had better do something about your weight.

    Besides, why does any of this bother anyone here? Were you planning on immigrating to New Zealand?

    Their country, their rules. It is a pretty simple concept.

  14. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    Yeah, nice thing about socialized health care. Just ask the Canadians coming here to get treated. Or the folks in England told they have three months left to live and their surgery is scheduled six months from now. Yep, good thing, socialized health care, lousy for everybody. I’d rather have my taxes cover those that can’t or won’t pay, as they do now. You can bet your bottom dollar, or euro, or yen, that those foisting these policies upon us do not have to live by them, as witnessed by our own government.

  15. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    BMI is a load of crap anyway. When I was in the Corps there was a Marine who was a former pro-linebacker (New England I think, my memory fails me) who was pure muscle, solid as a rock. He was put on weight control and his career threatened because his BMI said he was overweight.

    There was another Marine who was a power lifter. Also pure muscle, also put on weight control because his BMI was wrong.

    Both were 1st Class PFT also.

  16. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    We do it under our private, HMO for profit system, they do it under their government-run system.

    Except that here one can sometimes choose an insurance plan, even some that offer bariatric surgery. Only some HMOs discriminate on the basis of BMI.

    It isn’t a “gotcha” reason to dislike a government-run health care system.

    Speak for yourself. I dislike any “system” that discriminates on the basis of something as poorly delineated as a blanket relationship between all comers with elevated BMIs and putative cost to the “system.”

    Here’s a thought: Why not simply cut to the chase and discriminate on the basis of race? It’s a potent risk for coronary artery disease and stroke.

    Oh, but that wouldn’t be politically correct, would it?

    Besides, why does any of this bother anyone here? Were you planning on immigrating to New Zealand?

    Their country, their rules. It is a pretty simple concept.

    Yep. Just don’t complain when Hillary’s Health Police tell you that you’re denied care because your BMI is 2 points over some arbitrary limit and they cite some poorly-designed low N studies to show that they have right idea on dealing with health care costs since “it worked in New Zealand.” It happens all the time.

  17. Unregistered Comment by LC Elchonon, Imperial Chief of Civil Disobedience

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    BMI?!?! I am certified underweight.. every jewish mother including those whose daughters I dated and broke up with wants to feed me and feed me OY!

    Deej, yes insurance company’s are private company’s and can deny whoever the hell they want.. they denied me too.. so you know what my dad did ? he went back to being a pharmacist from the medical equiptment biz which yes made more but CVS provides me with FREE gratis aetna health care… mi glasses were free too (300$)

    Obese people can go get medicaid and social securty and blah blah blah..

  18. Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P. Comment by Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P.

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    Crunchie

    As another example of this sort of crap. I met a young lady recently who is currently active service, Army, who was informed that she had a choice of losing twenty pounds or being denied reenlistment.

    This girl is DENSE (bodily speaking), she lifts. She’s about 5′4″ and around 135lbs. And could probably bench press ME for about 50 reps.

    No body fat, (other than the usual female type locations), but she is “overweight”.

    What kinda fookin’ idiots… Nevermind…

  19. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    Isn’t this the same crap coming from people screaming you can’t discriminate against overweight people? I’ve known some fat dudes, and they were stronger than hell. This sorta reminds me of the big bruhaha raised in San Francisco when that billboard went up…When the aliens come they’ll eat the fat ones first. I damn near wrecked my truck…….it got taken down.

  20. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Guido
    It’s wrong, but it’s the BMI thing that screws super-muscular people. Muscle weighs more than fat, so it seems like they are heavy for their size. They should use a body fat measurement scale to double-check in cases like that, but there probably isn’t a standard for that.

  21. LC CountryRED GLOR Comment by LC CountryRED GLOR

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    You’ve got to be shittin me

  22. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

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    When the aliens come they’ll eat the fat ones first. I damn near wrecked my truck…….it got taken down.

    :em01:

    Guess I’d better lose some weight, then. Thanks for the chuckle, Caveman!

  23. Unregistered Comment by nerbygirl

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    Oh my GOD, the people on this website are discussing weight/fat ratios instead of missing the whole meaning of what Misha is talking about?

    Someone cannot enter a country because they are overweight?

    What’s next? Is Eugenics on the rise?
    I looked at one definition: Eugenics is a social philosophy which advances the improvement of human heredity traits through various forms of INTERVENTION.
    Jeez, all of this sound Orwellian to me, and led by the PCP police.

  24. Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P. Comment by Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P.

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    psychochick

    It’s wrong, but it’s the BMI thing that screws super-muscular people. Muscle weighs more than fat, so it seems like they are heavy for their size. They should use a body fat measurement scale to double-check in cases like that, but there probably isn’t a standard for that.

    There is, but it’s harder to look at than a height/weight chart. It would require, like, I dunno, some THOUGHT on the part of some useless, feckless, ambitionless, anonymous drone in an office somewhere.

    The stupid part of all this crap in the military is that if a soldier/sailor/airman/Marine can’t make the PT standards, they are gonna be out anyway. Why worry about the fact that some of the people that are being dumped are some of the most dedicated people in the military? The decision can be made on the basis of information that can be gathered in thirty seconds, with equipment that is sitting in every medical office on every military post and station in the world.

    Quick, cheap, and dirty. That’s the name of the game here.

  25. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

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    Nerbygirl,

    No one has missed the point. We are all (except for our resident lib) mocking NZ for its archaic, Orwellian attitudes towards the “pleasantly plump” of the world.

  26. LittleRott84 Comment by LittleRott84

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    As another example of this sort of crap. I met a young lady recently who is currently active service, Army, who was informed that she had a choice of losing twenty pounds or being denied reenlistment.

    This girl is DENSE (bodily speaking), she lifts. She’s about 5′4″ and around 135lbs. And could probably bench press ME for about 50 reps.

    No body fat, (other than the usual female type locations), but she is “overweight”.

    What kinda fookin’ idiots… Nevermind…

    Whoever told her that she was overweight is full of :em72: I don’t know how old your friend is, but she’s the same height as I am, and the max for me is 147 (I’m 23).

  27. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    Not all people are the same. I’ve always been heavier than I look, and I am not overweight by any standard. I knew a guy, stood five-six, weighted two-twenty. He was not fat…but he was built like a fire plug. The sort of guy that would wander off and return carrying an engine block…for an eight cylinder.

  28. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Just ask the Canadians coming here to get treated.

    You could ask me, because I go UP THERE for my medical. It doesn’t cost me anything, and I actually get in to see a doctor faster than I would if I had my treatments down here. Canada actually pays for my physical therapy down here since it is closer to where I live.

    I would be 100 percent uninsurable down here in the United States due to my pre-existing medical conditions. In other words, I would have been dead several years ago if I had to rely on the great HMO medical scam here in the US.

    As far as Canadians coming here for treatment, you can bet that the Canadian government is paying their way, because most people cannot afford the medical costs out of pocket.

    Or the folks in England told they have three months left to live and their surgery is scheduled six months from now.

    Usually, if you are told you have only three months to live, your case is terminal, and there is no surgery in the world that is going to save you. I don’t know where you are getting this information, but it sounds a bit suspicious.

    I don’t care what kind of medical system you have — there is no way you are going to “save” everyone. But of all the first world industrial countries in the world, this is the only one that has forty million people without medical insurance because they simply cannot afford it due to a medical system whose sole mission is to turn a profit, not provide medical coverage.

    Do you want to know one of the major reasons many of the jobs have been leaving the US? It is because of the high cost of health insurance. Most businesses don’t want that extra expense per employee, which can be as much as $10-$12 an hour more per employee. What was the GM and Chrysler strikes about? Health care. It is exactly the reason why Republicans are going to lose in a big way this next election.

    The question is, do we want a Hillary health care plan that favors the insurance companies and winds up costing each of us through the nose, or do we want one of the other plans that expands medicare or medicaid?

    Personally, I don’t care. I can still go up to Vancouver.

  29. LCBrendan Comment by LCBrendan

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    The question is, do we want a Hillary health care plan that favors the insurance companies and winds up costing each of us through the nose, or do we want one of the other plans that expands medicare or medicaid?

    New Zealand isn’t interested in Hillarycare. Stick to the point.

    But read the article here a little closer: it only pertains to immigrants to New Zealand, not the people who are already citizens.

    The NZ Govt is froot loops….Australia is absorbing their citizens at a great rate.“will the last ones to leave NZ please turn out the lights and feed the pig”?

    (Ref to old Prime Minister Piggy Muldoon)

    Don’t you want immigrants to this country learn English and the American way of life? Why shouldn’t New Zealanders expect the same of their immigrants?

    You move to NZ when I wasn’t looking, Allyn?

    This BMI thing is crap, and yet more proof the NZ Govt has lost the plot.

  30. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    You know, I don’t want to be too argumentative. However, upon further thought I don’t think this is as stupid or fascist as it might seem immediately. I am very obese (about 80 lb is from drug interactions), so I am well aware of the conditions that can result: increased cancer(s), heart disease, diabetes, dementia. An increase in obesity adds tremendously to the cost of health care in this country (direct medical costs $93 billion).

    http://www.forbes.com/business/2006/07/19/obesity-fat-costs_cx_mh_0720obesity.html

    I don’t think it’s that horrible to exclude obese people, and that would include me. There are lots of problems with the BMI measurements, but you can’t argue excessive weight (which does not appear to be the case in Misha’s example)

    Insurance companies will decline coverage for things like athlete’s foot in the US, so it would not surprise me if they did screen out obese people. I have no experience with nationalized health care systems, but I could never in a million years get my own insurance policy here: MANY conditions. I’m on spouse’s work policy, which periodically stops paying my claims. It’s enough to make me paranoid (wait–I was already).

    Yeah, you could extend to race and smokers, but it doesn’t seem like they have yet. I am married to a smoker–I don’t think they are evil.

    Actually, what also worries me in this country is insurance companies getting the results of genetic screening that indicates a predisposition for a disease and denying coverage based on that.

  31. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    the crazy thing about this is that the weight range was changed a few years back to make more people over weight. when i got married i weighed 130 lbs at 5′9″. my wife is a dietician and show me weight range charts putting me 25lbs underweight. 22 years later i weigh 170 and am overweight where the old charts would put me low normal. admittedly i have put on a lot of fat from inactivity but i am too lazy to care. here is a link to a bmi calculator

  32. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Hilljohnny
    They changed the categories, too. There used to be a morbidly obese category (in the early 2000s), and now the highest category is obese.

  33. Unregistered Comment by Quilly Mammoth

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    Allyn opined:

    As far as Canadians coming here for treatment, you can bet that the Canadian government is paying their way, because most people cannot afford the medical costs out of pocket

    .

    Uhmmm…. Bullshit. Total, utter, complete with malice aforethought, bovine excrement.

    My wife is Canadian and members of her family come here for treatment for various ailments. And it’s strictly out of pocket. Most still prefer the Canadian system…but I think that’s because they can afford to come here for the long waiting list stuff. My brother-in-law wants to come back here to be a radiologist because he thinks that people there often get short shrift. He’s concerned that the Canadian system will decay to British National Death Service levels. And he works in that, to you I’m sure abomination, Alberta.

    And here in the US we try heroic measures to save people. My wife’s grandfather was sent to hospice to die. Not worth the cost to fight what was killing him. Two months later he was sent home in remission, but with no further treatment. Eighteen months later he died. In the US he might have had a chance.

    But in your socialistic fuck all world he was simply too costly. So don’t peddle you bullshit when people have certain knowledge that it isn’t the panacea that you claim it be, Allyn. It just makes you look stupid.

  34. Unregistered Comment by Draven32

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    And *poof* half of the immigrants making $125,000 a year working at WETA Digital suddenly disappear…

    (and about $10 mill in tax money, natch)

  35. Unregistered Comment by Draven32

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    The stupid part of all this crap in the military is that if a soldier/sailor/airman/Marine can’t make the PT standards, they are gonna be out anyway. Why worry about the fact that some of the people that are being dumped are some of the most dedicated people in the military? The decision can be made on the basis of information that can be gathered in thirty seconds, with equipment that is sitting in every medical office on every military post and station in the world.

    These folks also tend to be the most EDUCATED people in the military….

  36. Unregistered Comment by mindy1

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    This is truly maddening-when a person loses weight, it should be up to them no the gov’t-how can they even justify that. :em12: :em98:

  37. Radical Redneck Comment by Radical Redneck

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    As far as Canadians coming here for treatment, you can bet that the Canadian government is paying their way, because most people cannot afford the medical costs out of pocket.

    :em72: Complete and utter :em72:

    I’m taking you up on that bet. Prove that the Canucks getting treated here are sponsored by the maple leaf gubmint (not including token PR stunts (sending here a high-profile, heart tugging case).

    When you lose this bet, you will wear one of your Che’ shirts in the front row of a Hannity Freedom Concert™ :twisted: :em93:

  38. Useful Idiot Comment by Useful Idiot

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    The BMI is a crude money saving tool used by insurers. They even promote it’s use. There’s always some fluff piece on the news or internet about how to calculate it. But, it WAAAAY overestimates the obesity epidemic. At 6′1″ 185, I’m considered at risk, or pre obese, or whatever term that particular article chooses. Yet, I’m very, very fit, and thankfully know better than these numbskulls. But, still, follow the money: If you have a fallacious guideline (BMI) that makes people pay extra to get coverage, then you promote the fallacy ceaselessly until people believe it.

    It’s a familiar M.O.

  39. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    What was the GM and Chrysler strikes about? Health care.

    Horseshit !!! The big automakers see Universal Health Care as an easy out to fund their retiree health benefits, that were negotiated by the unions and they foolishly accepted.

    UHC is a win-win for them because they (and other large companies) believe they’ll immediately be able to dump their retirees into the government system.

    It is exactly the reason why Republicans are going to lose in a big way this next election.

    More of same excrement, the left is trying to make health-care an issue, but I don’t see enough people to buy into it to make much of a difference. I work for a small company (<30 employees) and aggressive shopping has kept health-care costs reasonable, yeah they’re up a bit, but it’s not bankrupting the company or the employees.

    This election cycle is going to be about Homeland Security and the WoT. The left knows it, and also knows that it’s their soft-white underbelly. They’ve bent over for the socialist, frothing moon-bat wing of the party on the war and won’t be able to reframe the “issues” into the same old domestic class-warfare playbook and pull it off. Catch-22 for the Left.

    As to the Canadian system, Red can give you all the horror-stories you want. Her brother developed heart troubles leading to an MI. He was put on a waiting list to see a Cardiologist SIX months after the first heart attack. He suffered at least THREE more during that period and Thank G_d he survived them. Her mother showed a lung mass on a routine X-Ray, she waited months for an MRI and then months more to see a Pulmonologist to determine a course of treatment. Next fer instance. Her mom recently took a serious fall, she went to the hospital and they determined she had ruptured a spinal disc and displaced a vertebrae. Treatment? “Oh you don’t need to be hospitalized, just go home and take it easy”. That’s an injury that has a significant risk of paralysis without definitive in-patient treatment for a geriatric patient.

    Many residents of B.C. travel to the Seattle area for scripts and treatment and NO their BC Care Card does NOT pay for it.

    Trying to use your own example as a real snapshot is facile at best.

  40. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    Even if the Canadian government paid for some of the treatment, and in most cases I seriously doubt it,,,,,why should an individual have to elave the country in the first place to receive critical medical attention? Profit driven companies have created miracles of technology, saving lives….and yes, treatment often very expensive. That’s what insurance is for. Personally I wouldn’t blame any parent going to any lengths to save their child’s life, insurance of not. I would do the same. I remember standing over my wife, thanking God for insurance, she on life support, ICU, tubes running down her nose, in her veins, a computer maintaining her vital functions as massive does of vancomycyn were administered. The doctors pulled out the stops saving her life, told me she was young and strong. She was thirty then, she is fifty now….yet I remember it as if it were yesterday. And I thanked God for the minds and hands that developed and built those machines and medications….the ones often purchased by governments with socialist heath care policies.

  41. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    My own (admittedly limited) experience with Canadian patients leads me to conclude the following:

    The Canadian system is fine if you have a case of the sniffles or some other self-limited, minor problem. If you have something life-threatening and urgent, get your bags packed for a trip South. You’re in for a long wait. (Unless you’re a dog, of course.)

    Canadians who can afford it carry their catastrophic coverage in the US. Those who don’t roll the dice, wait and hope for the best, not infrequently dying in the process.

    Horseshit !!! The big automakers see Universal Health Care as an easy out to fund their retiree health benefits, that were negotiated by the unions and they foolishly accepted.

    Yep. Cinch up your chinstraps and adjust your goggles, folks. It’s gonna be a bumpy ride.

    Enjoy, DJ. This is your future, explicitly planned and carefully executed by your neoCom socialist pals.

  42. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    That link tightened my gut right up, Moriarty. I would have lost my wife. You can sure as hell bet those bastards holding their people hostage to their health care can get the treatment they need. And as allegedly compassionate some claim socialist health care to be….it is here in the states where someone will get treated for emergency situations, and often the bill is written off. Yes, you owe, and often bankruptcy is the result. But I have waited for hours in emergency rooms while illegals and non English speaking people were treated. So in a very real sesne we do have socialized medical care here….for illegal immigrants.

  43. Unregistered Comment by Draven32

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    I’m living on disability and my wife can’t work. I get coverage, she doesn’t. She eneds knee replacement. the L.A. County health care system has taken three years to determine she needs a knee replacement, and put her in for the surgery, which still has not been actually scheduled.

  44. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Moriarty
    Would that be rude to ask you a brief professional question? If it’s okay, could you e-mail me at tetrodotoxin2 yahoo? (newly diagnosed–not sure how much to worry about extreme symptoms). other options for info have problems.

    If you need any advice on plants, plant compounds, or fungi, that’s about all I have to trade. You probably know all about the medicinal plant compounds.

    Speaking of fungi, there is some really interesting info on fungal poisoning, hallucinations, witch trials, LSD, Peter the Great’s army, socialist food distribution, and The X-Files (all related to the one fungus). If anyone is interested, you have my e-mail address.

    I did order that book–a little light reading never hurt anyone!

    Jackboot
    sorry about your wife’s relatives’ experiences. 6 months for a cardiologist after a heart attack?

  45. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    PC,

    No problem… but is that tetrodotoxin@ or tetrodotoxin2@ ?

    Also, yer pharmacology trivia question for the day: Where does tetrodotoxin get its name?

    No fair peeking.

  46. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    New Zealand isn’t interested in Hillarycare. Stick to the point.

    And neither am I. I covered the point and added an angle that was related to those of us here in the US. If you think New Zealand’s heath care is out of line, just wait to see what we end up with Hillary.

    The initial “outrage” of this thread was the fact that New Zealand was using a questionable criteria in accepting immigrants into its socialized healthcare program. It didn’t say anything about whether it applies that same criteria towards its citizens or not.

    I am also not sure whether New Zealand is as “heavy-set” as people from the United States, where there are people who are — by any criteria you choose to use — well, fat.

    If you are 6 feet tall and weigh 240 — you are fat overweight. Get over it or lose some weight. If you got “Furniture’s Disease” (where your chest has slipped into your drawers) then you are probably fat. If you haven’t seen “down there” for a while, or you fall on your face trying to see your toes, then you might be a bit too fat. I don’t mean to be condescending or heartless here, I am just stating a fact. I could easily fit into the fat category as well.

    I know it isn’t politically correct to refer to someone as being “fat” any more — to be “polite” we use euphemisms such as “big-boned” or “big-framed” to describe people who probably should cut back on the big bowl of ice cream while they sit on the couch watching TV.

    None of what I just said endorses the BMI scale which is just an excuse for insurance companies to charge higher premiums or deny payments for what they see as “unhealthy choices”. Sometimes being fat overweight horizontally- or scale-challenged is (gasp!) a medical problem caused by glandular disorder brought on by drugs or herdity.

    Uhmmm…. Bullshit. Total, utter, complete with malice aforethought, bovine excrement.

    I hate to break this to you, but I am a Canadian citizen. I recently had major surgery — in British Columbia. and I get my followup treatments right here in the United States — and it is paid for by (wait for it…) the Canadian government health care system.

    But in your socialistic fuck all world he was simply too costly. So don’t peddle you bullshit when people have certain knowledge that it isn’t the panacea that you claim it be, Allyn. It just makes you look stupid.

    Yet I am still alive, after four remissions, four surgeries, and what would have been several million dollars of care right here in the US that probably would have been denied by the insurance companies.

    Pardon my short temper when I say this:

    I live this fairy tale, you fucking idiot stick. Unlike you, who pulled your entire opinion out of your ample ass, I actually have the experience of having to deal with BOTH medical systems in a big way. Come back to see me when you’ve had three organs, a rib, and several tumors removed. Tell me how that went for you down here in the US.

    Tell me how you were able to do it AFTER the insurance companies all turned you down for coverage years earlier because of your pre-existing illnesses. Tell me about it when the insurance company decides that whatever procedure the doctors say you need is considered to be “experimental” and therefore not covered — even though it is a procedure that has been commonly used for years.

    I lost a friend a few years ago who had been denied a liver transplant because he didn’t have insurance. His brother was a perfect match for partial liver transplant, but just before the surgery was going to be performed, the insurance company denied the claim then dropped him.

    Why?

    Because twenty-six years earlier when he was in college, he had been admitted to the hospital after getting drunk and falling over a retaining wall. He broke his leg in the fall.

    Because he failed to mention the fact that he had been drunk at the time he went to the hospital, for a broken leg, the insurance company promptly dropped his coverage saying that alcohol HAD to be the pre-existing cause of his failed liver.

    He died five days later.

    I’m taking you up on that bet. Prove that the Canucks getting treated here are sponsored by the maple leaf gubmint (not including token PR stunts (sending here a high-profile, heart tugging case).

    I am not one of those high-profile heart tugging cases. I just recently had surgery up in British Columbia, and I get followup visits done right down here in the Seattle area — including physical therapy. ALL of it is paid for by the Canadian health care system.

    UHC is a win-win for them because they (and other large companies) believe they’ll immediately be able to dump their retirees into the government system.

    Yes, and it also takes their high costs of providing health care to their current employees as well. The only real companies against UHC is the insurance companies, who have spent billions of dollars convincing people lke you that UHC is a bad thing and misrepresent UHC in other countries as “failures”.

    Are there problems with UHC systems in the other industrialized countries? Sure. There are problems with ANY system. But by and large, MOST of the system works.

    The problem here in the US is that our health care system is driven by profits over health care. An insurance payout is considered to be a “medical loss”. Medical case reviewers are rewarded for “saving” money by denying cases.

    Many residents of B.C. travel to the Seattle area for scripts and treatment and NO their BC Care Card does NOT pay for it.

    Funny how I get reembursed then.

    I can’t take my PharmaCareCard to a pharmacy down here and expect to pay for drugs. But I file a claim form and I get re-embursed. My doctor down here will bill MSP directly because it was set up to do that.

    Enjoy, DJ. This is your future, explicitly planned and carefully executed by your neoCom socialist pals.

    It all depends on the particular surgical or therapeutic treatment required. If you need a knee replacement — sure, you might wait up to six months for that. You might wait that long here, if not longer. But if your case is like mine — surgery now or die — then it is surgery NOW, with no wait. It is all about case prioritizing.

    Yes, everyone likes to think that THEIR case is the most important one. THEIR ailments are more important than the other guy’s. Because of that, you will have some disgruntled people to complain about their “long waits” in a “fucked up health care system”.

    I hear that right here at home. My roommate had back surgery in May, and knee surgery in July. He waited almost a year for it, and now that he’s had it, he is STILL complaining about how “fucked up” the system is.

    Not only that, he has been on medical leave from Boeing since he was injured there over a year ago. He will be going back next month, and he expects to be let go because of his claim.

    But I have waited for hours in emergency rooms while illegals and non English speaking people were treated.

    That statement prompted two three questions:

    1) Were these illegals and non-speaking people taken ahead of you BECAUSE they were illegal or non-english speaking, or did they have more of an emergent need for medical care?

    2) How many times do you go to the emergency room?

    3) Do you always get your medical care done in the emergency room? Why don’t YOU have medical insurance?

    I apologize for my shortness of temper here.

    Like I stated above, I have been living this healthcare fairy tale for a very long time. It is costly to maintain a residence in two countries just so that I can afford medical care when I need it.

    I am lucky in MY situation because I have dual citizenship and can legally hold residence in both countries simultaneously.

    As I said above, there are going to be problems with every medical “system”, and there are going to be some trade-offs. Can I point to negative ones in the MSP Care system? Sure. But over all, I have found that where I can get care through BC, I cannot get care through the US unless I pay for it out of pocket.

    Many of the people who travel down from BC don’t want to wait for medical care, so they DO come down here to the US and pay out of pocket. But they certainly aren’t going to pay for major surgery down here out of pocket, and they aren’t going to have to wait in a line in BC to have it done either.

  47. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Moriarty
    THANK YOU!

    it’s 2

    I assume you’re asking in general and not me, right? The Major knew, which is no surprise.

    I have this right wing death beast debating partner. He hasn’t said anything, but he’s obviously done something covert. Weird stuff will come up, and I’ll ask him how he knows that, and there will be silence. He knows what tetrodotoxin is. I don’t know whether to write that off as being very knowledgable or something more nefarious.

  48. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    ) Were these illegals and non-speaking people taken ahead of you BECAUSE they were illegal or non-english speaking, or did they have more of an emergent need for medical care?

    2) How many times do you go to the emergency room?

    3) Do you always get your medical care done in the emergency room? Why don’t YOU have medical insurance?

    One…no, they came in after me…every one of them. And no, they were not in greater difficulty. Not if you walk in. I had to help my daughter in, not being able to breathe does that. The receptionist had difficulty speaking English. And yes, as far as I could tell, I speaking limited Spanish…I was the ONLY one asked if I had insurance!
    Two, as often as necessary. When your wife or daughter suffers a severe asthma attack, you do not wait. Regardless of time of day.
    Three…no, I do not. Yes, I have medical insurance. Quit making assumptions.

  49. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

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    Quoth’d our esteemed DJ:

    I hate to break this to you, but I am a Canadian citizen.

    Their country, their rules. It is a pretty simple concept.

    How ’bout you kindly shuttin’ the fuck up about ANYTHING that has ANYTHING to do with the US, then?

    BUSTED!!! (Or would that be “PWNED!1!”?)

    :em99:

  50. LC CountryRED GLOR Comment by LC CountryRED GLOR

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    I hate to break this to you, but I am a Canadian citizen. I recently had major surgery — in British Columbia. and I get my followup treatments right here in the United States — and it is paid for by (wait for it…) the Canadian government health care system.

    See now that is a different spin on it when you say it is the Canadian government health care system

    The government also controls the liquor stores, insurance companies, telephone companies, etc …That was in 1995

  51. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    BMI is a joke. I was looking at the chart in my Doc’s ofice earlier this week thinking that even for my height, it didn’t fit the parameters since I ran 12 miles a day in high school.

  52. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    How ’bout you kindly shuttin’ the fuck up about ANYTHING that has ANYTHING to do with the US, then?

    Because I have been a citizen here in the US just as long, and it would be nice if this country would catch up to the rest of the world when it comes to how health care is provided.

    Fifteen years ago, people were not ready for single-payer Universal Health Care. Things have changed, and the majority of people in this country WANT to have a change in how our health care is provided.

    Ever since Edgar Kaiser lobbyed John Ehrlichman to get the Nixon Administration behind the Health Management Organizations (HMO) our health care system has been steadily getting worse.

    If you don’t believe that this has been a set up all along, don’t listen to me, listen to Nixon and Ehrlichman discuss it.

    It is a bad recording and it is very hard to hear what they are saying, so here is the official transcript:

    February 17, 1971
    5:26 pm - 5:53 pm
    Oval Office
    Conversation 450-23

    John D. Ehrlichman: On the—on the health business—

    President Nixon: Yeah.

    Ehrlichman: —we have now narrowed down the vice president’s problems on this thing to one issue and that is whether we should include these health maintenance organizations like Edgar Kaiser’s Permanente thing. The vice president just cannot see it. We tried 15 ways from Friday to explain it to him and then help him to understand it. He finally says, “Well, I don’t think they’ll work, but if the president thinks it’s a good idea, I’ll support him a hundred percent.”

    President Nixon: Well, what’s—what’s the judgment?

    Ehrlichman: Well, everybody else’s judgment very strongly is that we go with it.

    President Nixon: All right.

    Ehrlichman: And, uh, uh, he’s the one holdout that we have in the whole office.

    President Nixon: Say that I—I—I’d tell him I have doubts about it, but I think that it’s, uh, now let me ask you, now you give me your judgment. You know I’m not to keen on any of these damn medical programs.

    Ehrlichman: This, uh, let me, let me tell you how I am—

    President Nixon: [Unclear.]

    Ehrlichman: This—this is a—

    President Nixon: I don’t [unclear]—

    Ehrlichman: —private enterprise one.

    President Nixon: Well, that appeals to me.

    Ehrlichman: Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can—the reason he can do it—I had Edgar Kaiser come in—talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because—

    President Nixon: [Unclear.]

    Ehrlichman: —the less care they give them, the more money they make.

    President Nixon: Fine. [Unclear.]

    Ehrlichman: [Unclear] and the incentives run the right way.

    President Nixon: Not bad. [Emphasis mine]

    Nixon was against the idea of the government providing health care — like virtually every other industrialized country in the world. This was a program he could get behind — private sector making profits, and giving the illusion of providing health care on par or better than any other country in the world.

    But he knew from the onset that the reality is in order for the private sector to make any money, they had to provide LESS health care by systematically denying legitimate claims.

    But it didn’t stop him from addressing Congress and the country the next day about his bold new National Health Strategy:

    Richard Nixon
    Special Message to the Congress Proposing a National Health Strategy
    February 18th, 1971
    To the Congress of the United States:

    In the last twelve months alone, America’s medical bill went up eleven percent, from $63 to $70 billion. In the last ten years, it has climbed 170 percent, from the $26 billion level in 1960. Then we were spending 5.3 percent of our Gross National Product on health; today we devote almost 7% of our GNP to health expenditures.

    This growing investment in health has been led by the Federal Government. In 1960, Washington spent $3.5 billion on medical needs–13 percent of the total. This year it will spend $21 billion–or about 30 percent of the nation’s spending in this area.

    But what are we getting for all this money?

    For most Americans, the result of our expanded investment has been more medical care and care of higher quality. A profusion of impressive new techniques, powerful new drugs, and splendid new facilities has developed over the past decade. During that same time, there has been a six percent drop in the number of days each year that Americans are disabled. Clearly there is much that is right with American medicine.
    But there is also much that is wrong. One of the biggest problems is that fully 60 percent of the growth in medical expenditures in the last ten years has gone not for additional services but merely to meet price inflation. Since 1960, medical costs have gone up twice as fast as the cost of living. Hospital costs have risen five times as fast as other prices. For growing numbers of Americans, the cost of care is becoming prohibitive. And even those who can afford most care may find themselves impoverished by a catastrophic medical expenditure.

    Because this thing is so long, you should go here to read the entire proposal

    The man lied through his teeth and for the past thirty five years we have been systematically fucked by the HMOs and the insurance companies.

    BUSTED!!! (Or would that be “PWNED!1!”?)

    Funny, I don’t feel it.

    [11/09/2007 @ 0953AM — Edited a huge chunk out of this comment but provided a link to the original transcript]

  53. Unregistered Comment by Quilly Mammoth

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    Allyn opined

    I live this fairy tale, you fucking idiot stick. Unlike you, who pulled your entire opinion out of your ample ass, I actually have the experience of having to deal with BOTH medical systems in a big way. Come back to see me when you’ve had three organs, a rib, and several tumors removed. Tell me how that went for you down here in the US.

    Listen, asshat. You fucking lied. So don’t get all pissy on me when I call you on it.

    You lied here:

    As far as Canadians coming here for treatment, you can bet that the Canadian government is paying their way, because most people cannot afford the medical costs out of pocket.

    That isn’t true, Allyn, and you know it. I have Canadian relatives who had to come here for stints. BEeause the waiting line was too long and they would have become a medical risk if they waited any longer. And they paid for it out of pocket. You got good treatment? Good on ya! Lot’s don’t there. Many don’t here. Life isn’t fair but painting a rosy picture when none exists _is_ a fairy tale. And it’s your’s, skippy.

    American Senior Citizens are waving to sick Canadians as one goes north for cheap meds and the other goes south for vital surgery. In fact, Liberal MP Belinda Stronach, went to California for breast cancer treatment. Why?

    Instead, MacEachern said the decision was made because the U.S. hospital was the best place to have it done due to the type of surgery required.

    We don’t know exactly _why_ she had to go to California, except that it’s a private matter and since the Canadian Government didn’t pay for it it is, well, private. As Canadian Commenter points out:

    Gerald Skowronski
    Unless the Canadian taxpayer paid for Stronach’s surgery, we have no business trying to find out the details of this intensely personal situation. I may not agree with her political tactics but her personal life is her own.

    Moreover, when _some_ Canadians come to the US for treatment they have to fight Canadian Bureaucrats to get paid. Hmmmm, just like the Managed Healthcare folks here.

    When Hillarycare became big news in the early 90’s much was made of the people coming south for treatment. At that time it was more fiction than fact, with only several thousands of “medical refugees” heading south each year(Most of whom paid out of pocket, Allyn). This is changing. Particularly because when many of these studies were conducted the dollar was very strong. (Both that paper and a Frazer Institute report from the late 90’s).

    However, with the Yankee Dollar now worth less than the Loony, and the increasing failures of the Canadian Healthcare system (following the politics in Saskatchewan now, Allyn), this is changing, and doing so quickly.. Particularly when in 1999 Cancer Center Ontario entered into a contract with Detroit’s Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute to treat Canadians. One of the _rare_ cases where the Canadian Government has _paid_ for it’s citizens to get treatment…assuming they could afford to live here at their own expense during treatment, of course.

    But in all these papers, Allyn, the over riding reason that more Canadians don’t go South for surgery is because they have to pay for it out of pocket. Not at all what you said.

    In the mid 90’s studies indicate that only few thousand came South for treatment, most at their own expense but by 2007 this number is expected to reach nearly 50,000. Most at their own expense, and because it is at their own expense there is difficulty in knowing exactly how large this problem is getting.

    you can bet that the Canadian government is paying their way

    Not according to any reputable source.

    Who’s the “fucking idiot stick”?

  54. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Listen, asshat. You fucking lied. So don’t get all pissy on me when I call you on it.

    How in the fuck did I lie? Did you lack basic reading skills when I mentioned that I am a living, breathing, example of being re-embursed by the MSP?

    I don’t give a rats rusty fuck whether you have relatives who haven’t figured out how to get the government to rebate their medical costs. Calling ME a liar because they don’t get re-embursed for their expenses is assinine. You are obviously ignorant of the entire system, or there is something you are telling us about. Are your people even signed up with MSP and have a CareCard and/or a PharmaCard? Or did they just throw their hands up and surrender so they could come down here for their medical needs?

    It really makes no fucking difference to me one way or the other. I know what I get, and I have no problems.

    That isn’t true, Allyn, and you know it.

    As Saint Ronnie said: “Now there ya go again”. I am doing it right now. I make a fairly good living, but I certainly couldn’t afford to pay for the medical procedures I have had out of pocket.

    I have Canadian relatives who had to come here for stints.

    Maybe they would RATHER pay for their medical out of pocket. Maybe they like the medical down here in the US? Those are rhetorical questions — I don’t really care.

    You got good treatment? Good on ya! Lot’s don’t there. Many don’t here. Life isn’t fair but painting a rosy picture when none exists _is_ a fairy tale. And it’s your’s, skippy.

    Maybe because your relatives are painting a bleak picture is the reason you tend to believe the worse. The reality is whole lot different.

    I don’t know the story as to why your relatives feel the need to head South for their medical — did I mention that I don’t care? Whatever reason they have is their own.

    I think I mentioned this above, but if I didn’t, I will now. Medical ailments and the medical care associated with those ailments is subjective. Some people have bad experiences with their medical providers/insurance companies and there is nothing that is ever going to change their minds about their perception once they feel they’ve been ‘burned’.

    I can only go with MY own experiences with the Canadian, British, American, Israeli, and German health care systems. I have dealt with them all. Each have their good points, each have their bad.

    I would rather be here in the US for my medical, but economics prevents me from doing so. Luck of birth allows me to take advantage of the Canadian system, which also allows me much cheaper prescription drugs.

    American Senior Citizens are waving to sick Canadians as one goes north for cheap meds and the other goes south for vital surgery.

    I just had my recent surgery up in BC at St Paul’s. I guess I was one of those “waving people”. The thing is, I wasn’t the only American in the hospital getting surgery. I found six Americans who checked in for surgery at the same time I did. I don’t know how they were getting their procedures, but apparently it isn’t all that uncommon.

    We don’t know exactly _why_ she had to go to California, except that it’s a private matter and since the Canadian Government didn’t pay for it it is, well, private. As Canadian Commenter points out:

    Maybe as a public figure she didn’t want her medical history strewn all over the papers? Maybe she needed a specialist that only could be found in California.

    Who knows?

    Her reasons are HER reasons, which may or may not have a damn thing to do with her perception of or the healthcare of Canada at all. Maybe she wanted to combine hospital with vacation. Did she go to Disneyland?

    Her medical trip to California is not “proof” of anything.

    Moreover, when _some_ Canadians come to the US for treatment they have to fight Canadian Bureaucrats to get paid. Hmmmm, just like the Managed Healthcare folks here.

    I can only speak from MY experiences. I have no problems getting re-embursed for my costs down here. In fact, I was just commenting to my wife the other day that I am actually making a slight profit because of the exchange rate between the US and Canadian dollar at the moment.

    But in all these papers, Allyn, the over riding reason that more Canadians don’t go South for surgery is because they have to pay for it out of pocket. Not at all what you said.

    I notice that much of your “papers” are directly or indirectly from the Fraser Institute, which is a Conservative think tank set up to tear down the basic liberal structure of Canada.

    Gee,why don’t I find that surprising?

    Canada has its Conservatives also. They just aren’t as prevalent as they are here. I also think that there is a little “grass is greener on the other side of the fence” syndrome going on with some people in Canada. They think that just because they have to wait for a whopping 18.3 weeks up there that things are going to be magically different down here. I know people who are waiting for teeth cleaning for six months right here in Lynnwood. It took me a whole year to have my teeth pulled for dentures.

    But hey, wanna have some fun facts?

    As terrible as you and your relatives think the Canadian health care system is, chew on these facts for a moment:

    Canada has a mortality rate of 7.86 individuals per 1000. The United States has a 8.26 per 1000 rating. By comparison, Mexico has a mortality rate of only 4.76 per 1000.

    People are dropping like flies in Swaziland, at the rate of 30.35 per 1000, and the best place to be is the United Arab Emirates because they shed people at the rate of 2.16 per 1000\

    Oh, and the source for this information comes from the CIA World Fact Book just so you know I didn’t pull if from one of my “Liberal Resource Books”

    Not according to any reputable source.

    I am the only reputable source I need on this. You might not like it, but as I’ve said earlier — I don’t really care.

    The point is, I have a very personal stake in this, and I am much more of an expert when it comes to MY medical experiences than YOU are. I would also venture to say that I am much more of an expert at dealing with the medical systems of four countries than you are.

    I can tell you that both Britain and Germany have their pluses, but that overall expertise is much better here in the US. The medical services in Canada are comparable to those here in the US, and for ME they are much better because you aren’t having to rely on the HMO or an insurance company whose only motivation is profit.

    I know that the Nixon address to Congress is a bit long. But if you read what the Ehrlichman/Nixon conversation said the day before, you get a fairly good idea how the health care system really runs here in the US.

  55. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    Alright Folks,

    Maybe a word or two from another Canadian citizen might help some…

    Certainly there are waiting lists, but rest assured that if your case is serious and does require IMMEDIATE action, you will get it. Yes, some of our citizens do go down to your country form some form of treatment or another, that’s a fact. Some do not want to wait, easily understood! And yes, Canada Health Care System is ENTIRELY run by the government. However, keeping in mind that some hospitals are busier than others, there is a tendency towards long waiting periods in our “emergency” rooms, however should a patient come in with a real emergency (i.e. bad car accident victim) the staff will address this issue immediately. DJ, as a Canadian citizen, is entitled to reimbursment for his care, plain and simple. Keep in mind also that a Canadian specialist might recommend his patient receive specialized care in the US which, in some rare cases, will be paid for by our government. Now, not ALL treatments and services are paid for or reimbursed. Should a patient choose to go to Florida for instance, because there is a center there which treats the problem faster than our own hospitals, and that same patient can receive the same treatment here but at a later date, this is not reimbursed nor paid for. Only the very wealthy seem to avail themselves of treatments and services offered by your clinics, which is understandable. They can afford not to wait…

    To play the devil’s advocate, and although nobody likes to wait for anything, I find our medical staff to be doing an extremely good job under the circumstances. I live in New Brunswick, and received excellent care whenever such care was needed (i.e. broke a bone in my hand once… took less than two hours from admission to discharge…). Please don’t think that our hospitals are cold, uncaring establishments just because we have state sponsored health care, it would be far from the truth.

    That being said, our politicians do NOT go to regular hospitals. They are sent to the National Defence Medical Center in Ottawa, one of the world’s best equipped, staffed and administered hospital. No waiting in line with the “masses” for their care…

  56. Lady Heather Comment by Lady Heather

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    Dave,

    With all due respect, what the f**k is this? I’ve always respected your opinions because you seemed above the fray. To paraphrase”St Ronnie” (as you sarcastically call him) said, “There he goes again…”

    What gives? Are you alright? If you’re feeling terrible (which I would understand completely) then quit poking sticks in the hornet’s nest. And if you do, don’t be surprised and pissed off at the reactions you get around here. Damn man, at least BC had that LOL emoticon at the end of his comment to you.

  57. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    As terrible as you and your relatives think the Canadian health care system is, chew on these facts for a moment:

    Canada has a mortality rate of 7.86 individuals per 1000. The United States has a 8.26 per 1000 rating. By comparison, Mexico has a mortality rate of only 4.76 per 1000.

    Thank you for your considered epidemiological opinion, Dr. Allyn. Rest assured that the public health community is anxiously awaiting the advance draft of your magnum opus entitled “Two Centuries of Abject Statistical Idiocy: Why Correlation Really Does Equal Causality.”

    I notice that much of your “papers” are directly or indirectly from the Fraser Institute, which is a Conservative think tank set up to tear down the basic liberal structure of Canada.

    I notice that much of your rebuttal concerns a conversation and a 36-year-old speech from the same man who presided over the imposition of a national 55-mile-an-hour speed limit, wage-and-price controls, “stagflation”, burgeoning unemployment, a devalued dollar, unprecedented surcharges on foreign imports, an adjusted inflation rate of 12.2% — and who resigned in disgrace rather than face impeachment, removal from office and probable felony charges… but who apparently didn’t want to impose a nationalized health plan because he thought that might be overreaching.

    Gee,why don’t I find that surprising?

  58. kayinmaine Comment by kayinmaine

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    We want 100% of all human needs provided by the government FREE OF CHARGE. Right away that eliminates medical, and environmental racism.

    [Want in one hand, shit in the other, and see which fills up fastest.

    And spew your manifestos elsewhere, bitch. -The Management™]

  59. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    With all due respect, what the f**k is this? I’ve always respected your opinions because you seemed above the fray. To paraphrase”St Ronnie” (as you sarcastically call him) said, “There he goes again…”

    Heather,

    As you know, I have been going through the medical thing lately. I use the Canadian system because the US system of HMOs and insurance companies have long-past failed me — I cannot be covered.

    When I mention this inconvenient fact that I use the Canadian system and that I get my health care I receive down here in Washington paid for by the Canadian government, I am called a liar — or that I don’t know what I am talking about because someone has a relative who doesn’t know how to get re-embursed for healthcare outside of the country.

    I get a bit short with people like that — and I apologized for the temper in the same comment.

    Sometimes it get a bit frustrating when you are living through a medical ordeal and your patience is already stretched to the limit because of having to adjust to a less-than-perfect health. Then you have someone who doesn’t even know you, or even have a solid understanding of all of the facts — just what he has heard from other people — tell you that you are full of shit.

    It is a bit frustrating.

    The “Saint Ronnie” remark was an attempt at injecting some humor. It is hard to deny that many Conservatives look towards Ronald Reagan as a “saint” and would at least like to add his likeness to Mount Rushmore — even if it means knocking one of the other heads off.

    And Reagan did say the words, “There you go again” during the second presidential debate with Jimmy Carter and he was responding to Carter who accused him of wanting to do away with Medicare and Social Security.

    To sum it up Heather, I don’t care if someone disagrees with me on my opinion — that’s one thing. But I am not going to just sit still and have someone call me a liar — when I am going through the very thing they are calling me a liar about.

    And thank you Hardclimber for clearing it up a bit, since I obviously don’t know what the hell I am talking aboot.

    Get it? Aboot? damn I kill me :em01:

    Anyways, let me say it again:

    “I am not gay — I never have been gay. I love my wife.”
    (oops, wrong statement)

    I apologize for losing my temper on this thread. And I do love my wife. I love her living 299 miles away from me.

  60. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    I notice that much of your rebuttal concerns a conversation and a 36-year-old speech from the same man who presided over the imposition of a national 55-mile-an-hour speed limit, wage-and-price controls, “stagflation”, burgeoning unemployment, a devalued dollar, unprecedented surcharges on foreign imports, an adjusted inflation rate of 12.2% — and who resigned in disgrace rather than face impeachment, removal from office and probable felony charges… but who apparently didn’t want to impose a nationalized health plan because he thought that might be overreaching.

    Perhaps you missed the part that I conveniently emphasised in Nixon’s conversation. The part where Ehrlichman said:

    “Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can—the reason he can do it—I had Edgar Kaiser come in—talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because the less care they give them, the more money they make.

    This is the US medical system in a nutshell. Nixon sold it to us by lying about having a “National Health Strategy” that would look and feel like a Universal Health Care system but be run by private companies, and that everyone would enjoy full coverage for a cheap cost.

    But he knew the opposite was the truth. The only way these private corporations could make money was to get out of paying for medical treatment by any means necessary.

    I don’t think that even Nixon could have predicted how corrupt the current HMO and private insurance industry is now.

  61. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    kayinmaine

    As mentionned before, who cares about what you and your ilk want?!? Isn’t it time for your nap?

    Poor brainless child…

  62. kayinmaine Comment by kayinmaine

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    kayinmaine As mentionned before, who cares about what you and your ilk want?!?

    I want the Bush Regime to free the Gitmo hostages! Then have their untaxed corporate minions pay them the huge reparations they are entitled!

  63. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Call me curious, but what exactly is KayinMaine saying that has someone riled up enough to cut her comments out? I have talked with Kayinmaine on a couple of other sites and she doesn’t strike me as someone disruptive or disrespectful.

    She is a progressive, and granted the other sites I have talked to here were progressive sites. What the heck is she saying here that has someone blocking her comments?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

  64. MuscleDaddy Comment by MuscleDaddy

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    AAKKKK! AAUUUGGHH!!

    Whew! Sight’s coming back…. so is hearing.

    The whole blinding/deafening ‘test pattern’ thing is ROUGH when it sneaks up on you like that.

    At least when my Dad starts going off about ‘Nixon’(!) as though he were relevant, it’s something I sort of half-expect could happen at any moment, and I’m more-or-less prepared for the automatic response.

    Man, that sucks!

    Please don’t do that again!

    - MuscleDaddy

    P.S. - I’d also appreciate it if you could refrain from blaming contemporary things on McCarthyfdlghksdblguisbnfgklibhcfbvybfv

    damn.

  65. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    I spoke too soon, I see.

    kayinmaine @ #62

    I want the Bush Regime to free the Gitmo hostages! Then have their untaxed corporate minions pay them the huge reparations they are entitled!

    Kay, I know how tempting it must be to come out swinging here. You don’t have to — most people here are more than willing to talk rather than fight.

    I don’t know if you remember me from over at Equal Time or even Liberaltopia. It is possible to get your point across here if you stick to the topic and engage a discussion.

    Drive-by sloganism is not going to work here, and it only pisses everyone off — including the one lone Liberal here. (me — and lately I get pissed off easily, but that is mainly because of medical issues)

    Try a different tact. Talk to people here — most don’t bite. They probably won’t agree with you, and that’s alright too. I have NEVER met anyone who agrees 100 percent with anyone else anyways. But I think you will find that there are a LOT of areas where you can agree. Just look for them.

  66. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    DJ Allyn, ITW

    Try a different tact. Talk to people here — most don’t bite. They probably won’t agree with you, and that’s alright too.

    I already tried to reason with her in that particular vein Sir, to no avail… Moonbats on Parade’s comments of mine will so indicate. This is provoking just for the sake of it. Also indicative of a mind lacking depth of intellect coupled to an obvious lack of life experience, lightly seasonned with infantilism du jour.

    Try talking to a shoe Deej, you might have better luck…

  67. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    DJ Allyn, ITW

    Oops, reference my comments to kayinmaine, “but he was a good boy” post should have been my reference…

  68. MuscleDaddy Comment by MuscleDaddy

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    DJ Sez:

    I have talked with Kayinmaine on a couple of other sites and she doesn’t strike me as someone disruptive or disrespectful.

    For some reason this struck me as interesting, and since Kay’s name links to her site - I went to look…

    Fun Stuff!

    My Christmas wish for 2007: THE AMERICAN MILITARY STORMS THE WHITE HOUSE, CAMP DAVID, THE RANCH IN TEXAS, BUNKERS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY, AND OTHER PLACES THE PIGS IN THE WHITE HOUSE RESIDE………….AND ARRESTS THEM ALL!

    Then there will be peace on Earth. The End.

    Oh yah - Kay & Rosie - the living personification of well-measured, carefully considered thought & discourse.

    Hmeh.

    - MuscleDaddy

  69. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    MuscleDaddy

    Oh yah - Kay & Rosie - the living personification of well-measured, carefully considered thought & discourse.

    My #66 and 67 above should be of service as well. My comments on forum “Garbage Disposal” will indicate that I actually TRIED to reason with the woman, and all we keep getting is slogan and nonsense. Good luck to you!

  70. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    For some reason this struck me as interesting, and since Kay’s name links to her site - I went to look…

    Have you been to MY site? :em01:

    How is anything she says over there any different than some of the stuff I see posted here? There are people who just don’t like the Bush Regime, just as there are people here who said pretty much the same thing about the Clinton Regime.

    And I will go out on a limb here and tell you that there will be people here saying roughly the same thing about the next Clinton Regime.

  71. Lady Heather Comment by Lady Heather

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    The “Saint Ronnie” remark was an attempt at injecting some humor. It is hard to deny that many Conservatives look towards Ronald Reagan as a “saint” and would at least like to add his likeness to Mount Rushmore — even if it means knocking one of the other heads off.

    He IS a saint. Too bad he wasn’t Catholic and divorced. I would be writing to the Vatican.

    And Reagan did say the words, “There you go again” during the second presidential debate with Jimmy Carter and he was responding to Carter who accused him of wanting to do away with Medicare and Social Security.

    D’uh, I know, Dave. I had forgotten that he said that to Carter during their debates, I only remembered his saying it about the Democratic party. Despite my handicap of being a conservative (*sarcasm*), I knew not to address YOU as THEY.

    :em99:

  72. MuscleDaddy Comment by MuscleDaddy

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    DJ Sez:

    How is anything she says over there any different than some of the stuff I see posted here?

    and…

    And I will go out on a limb here and tell you that there will be people here saying roughly the same thing about the next Clinton Regime.

    But you see Deej - you just provided the example for the answer…

    When we don’t like someone from your side of the isle, or despair their ‘being in charge’, - we shudder, we complain, we indulge in name-calling, we even (upon occasion) employ…. hyperbole.

    But we don’t LAUNCH INTO PAROXYSMS OF ALL-CAPS, MOUTH-FOAMING, TONGUE-CHOKING HATRED - WISHING (OH FOR THE LOVE OF MOTHER GAIA) FOR THE U.S. ARMY TO COME SWOOPING IN WITH THEIR ENVIRONMENTALLY-FRIENDLY HYBRID BLACK HELICOPTERS AND END THE NOXIOUS LIVES OF THE EEEVILCHIMPYMcBUSHITLERBURTONGLOBALZIONISTCONSPIRACY AND ALL WHO CARRY ANY ASPECT OF THEIR DNA, BEFORE THEY TRY TO SILENCE RANDI RHODES YET AGAIN!!!!

    That’s the difference.

  73. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Well, maybe not with the CAPS-LOCK on, but there have been many-an-occasion here where I’ve read stuff that a cursing gypsie would have been proud of.

    Should someone come over to YOUR site and lay this stuff down? Of course not. But if they want to get it off of their chest/breast on THEIR site, then who cares?

    Some people are very passionate about their political beliefs. Personally, I don’t take too much of any of this all that seriously. (with the exception of someone calling me a liar over MY health care experiences, but I digress)

    I don’t “hate” Bush. I just never found him to be great presidential material. The Right could (and should) have done a lot better. Even Bush the Elder could have run again in 2004 and been a whole lot better than Bush the Cowboy Clown.

    It might surprise you to know that I personally don’t have a problem with a Conservative president. But I do have a problem with a president who pretends to be a conservative and turns out to be a corporatist bent on robbing the treasury blind for his corporate buddies.

  74. MuscleDaddy Comment by MuscleDaddy

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    DJ Sez:

    Should someone come over to YOUR site and lay this stuff down? Of course not. But if they want to get it off of their chest/breast on THEIR site, then who cares?

    No one ….but that wasn’t the context, either.

    She came on, spewing her manifesto/doctrine/screed/whatever, and someone from The Management™ shut her down.

    You came up and said ‘What was that about? I have found Kay to be quite reasonable’

    I said ‘Okay, I’m willing to listen to Deej - let’s go look’.

    The rest, as they say….

    Also, as you might have guessed - I don’t have a problem with a Conservative President, either.

    … wish we had one.

    - MuscleDaddy

  75. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    We want 100% of all human needs provided by the government FREE OF CHARGE.

    Where the every loving hell is THAT spelled out in ANY of our Founding Documents?? The Government is NOT responsible for ANY of our needs EXCEPT guarding the border and making sure we are all safe to meet OUR OWN needs you pretentious little moron. Besides…the Government doesn’t have a gotdamn dime of it’s own anyhow. It all comes from US. So you are demanding that WE provide YOU will all human needs free of charge?

    Screw you and the Tofu horse you rode in on. :em96:

  76. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Perhaps you missed the part that I conveniently emphasised in Nixon’s conversation.

    Namely:

    All the incentives are toward less medical care, because the less care they give them, the more money they make.

    Or perhaps I didn’t. That quote doesn’t explain why some HMOs offer bariatric surgery, diabetes education and host of other services.

    Smart insurers (of which there are a few) try to keep their patients healthy because (gasp!) it makes them money. Stupid ones don’t.

    I won’t debate that the medical insurance situation in the US is a mess. However, the fault for that mess has far less to do with corporate interests than it has with physicians and patients who bought into it blindly, never stopping to reason it through to conclusion.

    Now we’re on the threshold of another great plan, this one labeled “Trust me. I’m from the government. I’m here to help.”

  77. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Nothing is free of charge….ever.