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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » Covet not my neighbour’s goods or thou shalt get thine head blown off.
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Note the following: 7 minutes fifteen seconds from the time of the call starting to the shots fired.

Also, no sirens can be heard.

The police weren’t in a real hurry, were they?

In light of these events, consider the following:

“A man called the police and told them he had 5 men breaking into his tool shed out back. The dispatcher told the guy they didn’t have anyone available to make it out to his property to stop the crime, and that the man should just remain in his home to be safe.

The cops would be there when they could get there. The man was outraged and said “You really need to get out here! They are in the shed RIGHT NOW, and you can catch them.”

The dispatcher again told him they didn’t have anyone available.

The man hung up, waited one minute, then called the police again. He said “I have 5 dead guys in my shed” the dispatcher said “WHAT”? The man nodded

“Yeah, I just went out and shot those burglars I called you about.”

Within seconds, several police cars drove up and the cops went into the shed … they found 5 guys stealing and promptly arrested them. One of the cops said, “I thought you said you shot all these guys.”

The home owner said “I thought YOU said you didn’t have anyone available for my call”

50 Responses to “Covet not my neighbour’s goods or thou shalt get thine head blown off.”
  1. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    I luv it! Reminds me of a time here, living in a rural area, when a local farmer phoned the sheriff to report thieves, farmworkers stealing irrigation pipes to sell at the recycle center. He was told it would take half an hour to get there. He said, never mind, me and my shotgun will handle it.
    Five minutes later, he had three of them at gunpoint, promising to send them all to the promised land if any moved. The newly arrived deputies took them into custody….

  2. Useful Idiot Comment by Useful Idiot

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    Sorry to ask, but has this story been authenticated?

  3. LC MoMinuteMan Comment by LC MoMinuteMan

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    Funny how the law shows up just in time to arrest a citizen for doing their job. Fuckers prolly waited around the corner until anybody who might shoot at them was gone.

    “…no property worth shooting somebody over…” Fuck you, ass munch dispatcher. I bet he wouldn’t say that if some hood rat was boostin’ his shit.

    I know the cops have a tough job, but sometimes the way they go about it really pisses me off.

  4. Unregistered Comment by NR Pax

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    The story itself is true. The second part is an old joke that’s been making the rounds for a few years (No pun intended).

    And I’m getting more than a little sick of the argument that no property is worth shooting someone over. If the cops are unable or unwilling to do their jobs, they have no right to bitch when someone does it for them.

  5. Unregistered Comment by snelson134

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    That property represents a portion of my life, that I will NEVER get back, spent working for the money to buy them. Letting some scumbag have them makes me his slave. No way in hell! Molon labe! :em96:

  6. Unregistered Comment by Infidel River Rat

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    It’s amazing how quickly they stopped piddling and diddling around when someone took action!

  7. Trooper THX1138 Comment by Trooper THX1138

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    Maybe it’s just me, but when you listen to it, doesn’t sound like the dispatcher’s taking the occasional hit off a water pipe? That would explain a lot, right there.

  8. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    So far I haven’t heard whether either of the two dead criminals were armed when Horn shot them.

    I think Joe Horn MAY have a serious legal problem.

    1. Horn said he intended to go outside and kill them.
    2. The dispatcher specifically and clearly ordered him NOT to go outside
    3. Neither of the two criminals were armed
    4. Both were trying to flee the scene
    5. Horn cannot demonstrate that he was in danger, since he chose to insert himself into the danger.

    As I understand it, Texas law allows for deadly force to protect your own property, but does that extend to your neighbor’s property?

    While I appreciate the idea that two fucknozzles are worm food, I just wonder how much of this law was pushed to the limits in this case.

    The cops were already just about there. There wasn’t much time between the shots and the cops actually telling him to get down on the ground.

    Why did Horn even bother calling the cops? Why didn’t he just go out, blow them away, then come back to tell the cops to come pick up the garbage?

  9. Unregistered Comment by nerbygirl

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    What do you do with a guy like this? Send him to jail for life?
    He was on the phone for seven minutes, and the dispatcher never said “the police will be there in a few minutes so stay calm”.
    In the past, I’ve observed minor crimes occuring and did nothing.
    Now, I act.
    I know from personal experience what it’s like to be a victim and have nobody step forward to your aid. Nobody wants to get involved, but this guy did.
    Today, I believe that action is better than inaction. But did this guy go too far? Something to ponder. The laws will be tested.

    Should he have killed these two goblins? I don’t think so, but none of us were there to see what was happening. At the end of the recording he said that they were in HIS yard.

    I don’t even like my neighbors that much, but if I saw some goblins breaking into their home, I would get my gun.
    What I would do next, I don’t know….

  10. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Yer right Allyn, unfortunately, the guy is facing some legal problems. I don’t know Texas laws well, but if they are similar to Florida’s the perps would have to have been committing felony burglary for him to be in the clear.

    He had good intentions to stop a crime, but his statements about shooting them beforehand will really bite him in the ass.

    The only saving grace may be when he said they came in his yard. If thats true, he might be good to go.

  11. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

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    The only saving grace may be when he said they came in his yard. If thats true, he might be good to go

    If so, it may fall under the newly-enacted “Castle Doctrine” law. Hope his attorney’s been paying attention.

  12. Mike M Comment by Mike M

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    Has anyone else heard anything like this? A few days ago in the comments section of one of the accounts of this shooting - I’m going from memory here, but I think it was a Dallas area ABC affiliate story - I read that there may have been some connection between the departed guys and the owner of the home which was the object of their attention. The commenter said all three worked for “Centerpointe” (whatever that is) and the homeowner was in jail on misdemeanor narcotics charges at the time of the B&E. Since they took what was described as a “bag of cash”, the commenter opined that the decedents may have gone into the home in an effort to retrieve bail money for the homeowner. Given that they chose to bash out a rear window to make entry and didn’t stop when confronted by Mr. Horn and his street howitzer, this scenario doesn’t seem all that likely. If any part of that is true, though, it could be that the two knew the co-worker was in custody and that there was a substantial amount of cash within the premises and they simply saw this as an opportunity to relieve him of it. That sort of thing has happened before. This same news account also had a photo of a small commercial utility truck at the scene that police were looking over, which might lend some credence to the Centerpointe connection that the commenter spoke of. Or it might mean nothing at all.

    And where is that homeowner anyway? Since Mr. Horn’s future may hinge, as some claim, on whether he was asked to look out for the property, you’d think the media would be all over that guy to get his take on events. So far, I’ve seen nothing about him or what he has to say.

    I do have a hunch, though, that, lacking any supporting statements from the homeowner, Mr. Horn may very well be indicted over this if his self-defense plea doesn’t fly with the grand jury.

  13. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Yer right Allyn, unfortunately, the guy is facing some legal problems. I don’t know Texas laws well, but if they are similar to Florida’s the perps would have to have been committing felony burglary for him to be in the clear.

    I know that Texas has some pretty “liberal” gun laws compared to Washington.

    Here, you are allowed to use deadly force as self defense. or in the protection of your property, but there is the caveat that such force shall not exceed the threat involved.

    Up here, this neighbor wouldn’t have been allowed to go to the neighbor’s house and purposely be the agressor. I think this is the key here. You cannot “defend” yourself you you are being the agreesor.

    Horn made the mistake of telling the 9/11 dispatcher that he intended to go out and “kill” these two people if the cops didn’t hurry up and get there. Is this a case of “Premeditated intent to defend“?

    The smart thing for him to have done is to keep is mouth shut. Hell, he had a choice: Call 911 and involve the cops, then let them do what they needed to do, or just take matters into his own hands and call the cops after the fact. NOT BOTH.

    The moment he chose to call the cops, he should have taken his gun out of the equation — unless the perps came inside of his house.

    Seven minutes is not all that unreasonable for a proper response of police units. Just because Horn didn’t see evidence of police activity at the house, doesn’t mean that the cops weren’t buttoning down the perimeter.

    It was mere seconds from the time he fired the shots and killed the criminals, and the time the cops arrived to secure the scene. That tells me that the cops were within range to have taken care of the entire situation without having to kill anyone.

    I have read about this story for the past couple of days now, and I can’t believe the celebration behind killing someone. I am not mourning the loss of these two buttmonkeys, I am just commenting on the thought that this is something that needs to be celebrated.

    I also couldn’t help but have the feeling that Joe Horn was hoping the cops wouldn’t get there on time, and that he WANTED to have the need to use that shotgun. Even the amount of time that elapsed between “don’t move” and the shots themselves is very short. It was almost as though he was pulling the trigger before there was even the chance to comply.

    It was like you knew it was going to happen all along.

  14. Unregistered Comment by roguetek

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    1. The dispatcher specifically and clearly ordered him NOT to go outside
    2. Neither of the two criminals were armed
    3. Both were trying to flee the scene
    4. Horn cannot demonstrate that he was in danger, since he chose to insert himself into the danger.

    Regarding point 1. The disdpatcher ordered him to? what, we’re all in the army now and the orders of some slob in a headset have force of law? I sure as shit hope not.

    regarding point 2. we do not know that. And frankly, I suspect that if they -were- unarmed, the media would be trumpeting to the heavens about this guy “murdering 2 unarmed men.” Since they haveny said a damn thing, I’m inclined to suspect they were armed.

    Regarding point 3. If you listen to the tape closely, you can hear where he tells them to stop, -and- you can hear him tell the dispatcher that he had to shoot because they charged him. It’s a bit garbled, but something about ‘coming at me’ or “coming onto my lawn”. I cant quite make it out. But it’s clear that either they charged him, or entered his land. either way, this makes them fair game.

    regarding point 4. Bullshit. If you come into my neighbor’s house to steal, I have no reason to believe you wont come into -my- house to steal, as soon as you are done ripping off my neighbor.

    regarding the value of property Vs. human life.

    To be blunt, if you are engaging in traditional criminal emterprise[1], you have broken the ‘rules’. Having broken the ‘rules’ you are fair game.

    1. B&E, rape, mugging, murder for hire, armed robbery, car jacking, general banditry, etc,etc.

  15. Unregistered Comment by qsilver

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    Reminds me of the time I had to call the local PD here. 2 AM and I hear this scream. This is through closed windows, over the racket of a 10,000 BTU AC in the window, and the TV on. I grabbed my pants, sidearm, and cordless phone. I headed down the stairs and out the side door to figure out what the hell was going on and spotted a domestic disturbance taking place. No big deal, until you know that the place the disturbance was is the top of a 75 ft. cliff.

    I called the PD and talked to the dispatcher:

    Me: Hey, there’s a domestic going on here at the end of the road. They’re screaming and swinging, and they’re right on the edge of the cliff.

    Dispatch: How long has this been going on?

    Me: I don’t know, I heard the screams and came out here with my sidearm to make sure my downstairs tenant wasn’t getting murdered.

    Dispatch: Do you have a… GUN sir?

    Me: Umm… Yeah. It’s 2AM and I hear blood curdling screams I grab my sidearm before heading out the door.

    Dispatch: Sir… Guns are dangerous… You really shouldn’t have that…

    Me: (Long, disgusted pause) Honey, just because YOU had to become a dispatcher because you’re too stupid to handle a firearm does not mean the rest of us are all mental defectives.

    Dispatch: Sir! I don’t like your tone of voice!

    Me: And I don’t like that you’ve ignored a domestic assault happening ON THE TOP OF A DAMN CLIFF! You want to quit bitching about my second amendment rights and send an officer down here before the bitch ends up tossed over the side and I have to shoot the fucking boyfriend?

    I sat on the porch till they patched it up and drove away, since dispatch apparently didn’t like my attitude and so never sent out a cruiser. Or maybe they were all tied up with more important things… like the run to Krispy Kreme.

  16. Unregistered Comment by fanbladesaresharp

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    The 911 call lost me at “….and what color is the house” “well it’s kind of a red brick.

    ………in a suburb where all the damn houses look the same. Or was this a video overlay? Yet another reason I don’t do suburbs or HOA’s anymore. If my neighbor needs me to back up his shit, the giant windmill and tesla coil in the yard is a great identifier when someone is on my neighbor’s property. Same goes when I’m on vacation and my neighbor is on 911 with “the dude has always been trying to make flying cars, now some asshole is trying to steal it”.

    Given those mad scientist circumstances, I’d let the neighbor take the idiot out and just keep quiet for a while. I’d do the same. Just bein’ neighborly…….

    But I do draw the line at meth labs and any kids that never can seem to get outside.

  17. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Regarding point 1. The disdpatcher ordered him to? what, we’re all in the army now and the orders of some slob in a headset have force of law? I sure as shit hope not.

    This is a simple one. A cop is operating under “the color of law”. If the cop tells you to stop or he will shoot, then you had better stop — because he is actually liable to shoot.

    The same thing goes when a cop is behind you and turns on those blue gumballs. You are to stop. It is a lawful order.

    regarding point 2. we do not know that. And frankly, I suspect that if they -were- unarmed, the media would be trumpeting to the heavens about this guy “murdering 2 unarmed men.” Since they haveny said a damn thing, I’m inclined to suspect they were armed.

    I suspect that Joe Horn’s attorney would have said right up front that the two knuckleheads were armed. It would be the prima facie case of self defense. It would have been the legal trump card to justify any shooting such as this.

    The fact that no weapon was mentioned, indicates that there probably wasn’t one. Besides, Horn yelled out “stop or I will shoot” which also indicates that the two were running AWAY, not using any kind of weapon to threaten Horn with.

    Regarding point 3. If you listen to the tape closely, you can hear where he tells them to stop, -and- you can hear him tell the dispatcher that he had to shoot because they charged him. It’s a bit garbled, but something about ‘coming at me’ or “coming onto my lawn”. I cant quite make it out. But it’s clear that either they charged him, or entered his land. either way, this makes them fair game.

    Yeah, I heard that also. It was a contradicton from what you heard on the tape and what he told the dispatcher. You can clearly hear him tell the two to stop or he will kill them and an instant later you hear three shots. THEN he comes back to tell the dispatcher they “charged” him, yet one ran off down the street.

    I am wondering who charged who? Horn is in his house describing what he sees across the street at his neighbor’s. The next thing you know, he is shooting these two men who are “charging” him? Would they “charge” someone with a shotgun pointed at them?

    regarding point 4. Bullshit. If you come into my neighbor’s house to steal, I have no reason to believe you wont come into -my- house to steal, as soon as you are done ripping off my neighbor.

    Then the place he needed to be was inside of his house. The moment they came in would be the moment you take them out. The fact is, Horn told the cop early on that he intended to get his gun and kill them. He wanted to kill them, and I can’t really say I wouldn’t feel the same way.

    Dispatch: Do you have a… GUN sir?

    lol! Six months ago, when my car was towed out of my driveway early one morning, my son called the cops as it was going down the hill. I yelled in the background that I had my gun and I was on the way out the door to shoot the driver.

    The cops were there in less than two minutes. If I hadn’t mentioned the gun, I might still be waiting for them. Of course they also know my roommate very well, considering he is an ex-copper and has enough guns to start a decent ruckus.

  18. kayinmaine Comment by kayinmaine

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    (((snip)))

    Stick to the topic at hand.

    The Management

  19. Mike M Comment by Mike M

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    The preceding message has been approved by the Democratic National Committee.

  20. Unregistered Comment by Bushwack

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    Ignoring the idiot comment above this one :em98:

    Mr Horn is going to have a butt load of legal troubles. The reason is: HE called 911 first, and was told not to do anything, to stay in HIS house and watch. His civic duty was complete and as long as he stayed on the line, he was screwed.

    You better be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that your life was in danger if you are talking to 911 dispatch when you pull the trigger if the person/persons are NOT in your home.

    I would bail him out of jail if it was my home being burgled, and I might even pay for his legal defense.

    I would suggest we elect Joe Horn as Sheriff of any border town USA upon his release.

  21. Unregistered Comment by mindy1

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    Hehe there is an irony to this. While he may not have been legally justified, in some parts of the US he would not be convicted. :em02:

  22. Deathknyte Comment by Deathknyte

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    I am wondering who charged who? Horn is in his house describing what he sees across the street at his neighbor’s. The next thing you know, he is shooting these two men who are “charging” him? Would they “charge” someone with a shotgun pointed at them?

    If you think they are bluffing and charge them they might drop the shotgun, or they might panic and not shoot. However, sometimes they DO shoot as these two have learned the hard way.

  23. NevadaDailySteve Comment by NevadaDailySteve

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    This is a simple one. A cop is operating under “the color of law”.

    A dispatcher around here isn’t a law enforcement officer but a ‘civilian’ working at the public safety department, which includes the fire department. Unless the dispatcher there was a law enforcement officer his ‘order’ has no more ‘color of law’ than your pronouncements.

    The fact that no weapon was mentioned, indicates that there probably wasn’t one.

    Crowbars are lethal weapons. Don’t believe me? Whack a cop with one and see what you get charged with. A crowbar was definitely mentioned therefore the perps were armed with a lethal weapon.

    Then the place he needed to be was inside of his house. The moment they came in would be the moment you take them out.

    Not necessarily so. That’s giving the bad guys the edge. The time to take them out is BEFORE they come through the door. It’s also a lot easier to clean up concrete and grass than carpet.

    What took the police so long? They knew they had a situation on their hands that could turn into a shooting and they dawdled. If anyone (other than the two burglars) are responsible for the shooting it’s the cops. If they had run with sirens they could have been there sooner. They didn’t because we would have been able to hear it on the recording.

  24. Unregistered Comment by LC Rey

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    That place looked like Texas, even before I read the article. Here in Texas the law is very clear. You have the legal justification to use deadly force to protect your life, property and the life and property of those who can reasonably expect you to protect them. In the case of property crimes, a larceny (no one is in the property when is broken into) deadly force can be used in the hours of darkness. In the case of robery (victims are inside the property) deadly force can be used any time. Mr Horn has 2 basic problems. He did not know his neighbors well (by his own admission) so they could not have had any reasonable expectations of protection of property. The second is that it was daylight hours. No justification exists to use deadly force. Can there be other justifications? Yes. If Mr Horn said, stop and the criminal with the crowbar raised it and moved towards him. Or made any gesture that could be reasonably interpreted as a threat. Or entered Mr. Horn’s property. Listening to the tape, and having no other information, Mr. Horn was not legally justified to shoot.

  25. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    If you think they are bluffing and charge them they might drop the shotgun, or they might panic and not shoot. However, sometimes they DO shoot as these two have learned the hard way.

    I think that the natural response would either be to freeze or run. I am guessing they ran, because Horn told the cops that he “wasn’t going to let them get away”.

    A dispatcher around here isn’t a law enforcement officer but a ‘civilian’ working at the public safety department, which includes the fire department. Unless the dispatcher there was a law enforcement officer his ‘order’ has no more ‘color of law’ than your pronouncements.

    In many jurisdictions the dispatcher typically is a deputized law enforcement officer. The reason being that when you call 911 you are calling for help, and the dispatcher is not only mobilizing the resources, they are also giving you instructions to follow. In order to do that and protect themselves, they have to be operating under the color of law.

    Not necessarily so. That’s giving the bad guys the edge. The time to take them out is BEFORE they come through the door. It’s also a lot easier to clean up concrete and grass than carpet.

    It is? It makes it that much harder to prove that they even intended to cause you harm — especially since Horn clearly stated on the phone that the two were “getting away”.

    If they had run with sirens they could have been there sooner. They didn’t because we would have been able to hear it on the recording.

    Cops don’t always use their sirens to respond to burglaries or armed robberies. At least not use them in the vacinity where the perps might hear them. They want to keep from spooking them or cause them to take hostages.

    We don’t know that the cops weren’t already in the immediate area and setting up a perimeter — which is the first thing they would be doing. Just because you don’t see or hear them doesn’t mean that they aren’t already there. And judging by the time elapsed between the shots and the cops telling Horn to get down on his stomach, it shows that the cops WERE there.

    This is the reason why you leave such matters to the trained law enforcement people. If your life is immediately threatened you can use force. But this wasn’t the case here. Horn LEFT the safe confines of his home and took the fight to them. This is where he is vulnerable to charges.

    I hope he isn’t charged — I can’t lose any sleep over the loss of these two.

    I watched a news interview with the wife of one of the victims perps. It was one of those obviously staged interviews with the crying baby in the lap to show the “humanity” of the now-dead father and how this child was going to grow up without ever knowing the guy — thanks to the heartless actions of the great white criminal killer. It even came complete with the obligatory picture of the father kissing the baby. “He was a gooooood father,” she wailed.

    blech.

    If she would have added “He provided for us”, I would have wanted to get on the next plane smoking and run down there just to bitch slap her.

    The kid was saved from having to go visit daddy serving life in a Texas prison because he caught his third strike or he actually killed someone. The grieving mother should have her kid taken away because the woman obviously lacks good judgment and frequently makes bad decisions.

  26. AyUaxe Comment by AyUaxe

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    We really do need to change the law throughout this country to allow deadly force against property crimes. Whatever happened to hangin’ horsethieves?! Any burglary, even an auto or garage/tool shed burglary (i.e., not a carjacking–those goblins are already fair game most places) is indicative of a perp who has no respect for anyone. If there’s someone home, it is likely to become a violent crime.

    My wife has seen a couple of burglaries in our neighborhood and given real-time reports to 911 operators as the goblins entered, moved about, removed property and left. Squad cars rolled by leisurely up to 2 hrs later and didn’t even stop at the neighbors’ house that was burgled. Had I been home or had my wife wanted to, either of us coulda dropped ‘em on the neighbor’s front porch with a .308 or .30 carb. Ballistics would’ve nailed us, though.

    If you’re gonna exercise your 2nd A rights, you’ve gotta do it intelligently–be damn sure of your target, backstop, potential evidence and adverse witnesses, and your other Constitutional rights, ’cause you’re probably gonna need the 5th and 6th, too. The goblins’ lives may not be worth more than my neighbor’s property, but my life and liberty, sure as shinola, are!

  27. Unregistered Comment by LawDog

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Texas law:

    Texas Penal Code, § 9.43 says:

    PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON’S PROPERTY. A person
    is justified in using force or deadly force against another to
    protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if,
    under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the
    actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force
    or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
    (1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful
    interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or
    criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
    (2) the actor reasonably believes that:
    (A) the third person has requested his protection
    of the land or property;
    (B) he has a legal duty to protect the third
    person’s land or property; or
    (C) the third person whose land or property he
    uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor’s spouse, parent,
    or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor’s care.

    Section 9.41 says:


    (a) A person in
    lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is
    justified in using force against another when and to the degree the
    actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
    prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on the land or unlawful
    interference with the property.
    (b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible,
    movable property by another is justified in using force against the
    other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force
    is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the
    property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit
    after the dispossession and:
    (1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no
    claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
    (2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using
    force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

    Section 9.42 says:
    A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
    tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
    other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
    deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of
    arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
    nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
    immediately after committing burglary
    , robbery, aggravated
    robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
    property; and
    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or
    recovered by any other means; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to
    protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
    another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

    Also muddying the waters is Article 18.16 of the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure:
    PREVENTING CONSEQUENCES OF
    THEFT. Any person has a right to prevent the consequences of theft
    by seizing any personal property that has been stolen and bringing
    it, with the person suspected of committing the theft, if that
    person can be taken, before a magistrate for examination, or
    delivering the property and the person suspected of committing the
    theft to a peace officer for that purpose. To justify a seizure
    under this article, there must be reasonable ground to believe the
    property is stolen, and the seizure must be openly made and the
    proceedings had without delay.

    The sticky part to this case is the blunt statement that he was going to go kill those critters. Like it or not, that kind of thing tends to prejudice the Grand Jury and the trial jury.

    LawDog

  28. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    LawDog

    He needs YOU to look after his interests in a court of law! You took the time to extract the proper passages and post them. That, Sir, is indicative of someone who cares enough to go all out for his client. The “blunt” statement can be seen as spoken by someone under pressure brought on by the events taking place perhaps..?

    Thank you for taking the time…

  29. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Late to the thread, so all I can say is “what LawDog said.”

    Under my understanding of Texas law, Mr. Horn was clearly legally justified in using deadly force (whether anybody considers him morally justified is really beside the point and, at any rate, I don’t give a rat’s arse. The goblins made their choices, they ran into the consequences. Boo-hoo-fucking-hoo).

    What it all boils down to has nothing to do with technicalities such as whether or not a crowbar is a “lethal weapon” (I’d be happy to demonstrate to those insisting that it isn’t), which direction the goblins were running in (and no, “stop or I’ll shoot” doesn’t imply running away. I’d be using the exact same command if they were running toward me), what property they were on, whether the dispatcher has any authority to “order” anybody around (don’t make me laugh) etc. etc. etc.

    It all comes down to what LawDog mentioned: Our Hero’s one BIG mistake was stating his intent to kill the critters. It doesn’t matter whether he was just blowing off steam or not, it doesn’t matter how much I agree with his sentiment, it WILL color the perception of a Grand Jury, and any halfway competent prosecutor will play that angle for everything it’s worth and THEN some.

    Oh, and as to the dispatcher’s “no property is worth killing somebody over”, I can only say this: “Go fuck yourself with a nail-studded railroad sleeper, you tossbag.”

    Besides, what he SHOULD be saying should be directed at the goblins and any wannabe emulators of them: “NO PROPERTY IS WORTH GETTING YOURSELF KILLED OVER.”

    THEY made that choice, the homeowner didn’t.

  30. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    The sticky part to this case is the blunt statement that he was going to go kill those critters. Like it or not, that kind of thing tends to prejudice the Grand Jury and the trial jury.

    That was my thought all along. I cringed when I heard him say that. You NEVER want to show that you intended to kill someone. Killing someone should be the last resort, not the first available choice. When he said he was going to kill them, he basically said he wasn’t going to entertain any other choices.

    I think this is what is going to screw him — at least in the short term.

  31. Unregistered Comment by LawDog

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Thanks for your kind words, Hardclimber, but I’m a cop — not a lawyer.

    Misha,
    any halfway competent prosecutor will play that angle for everything it’s worth and THEN some.

    If I’m not mistaken, this happened in Harris County. Remember that the Harris County District Attorney is quite proud of the fact that when the Texas Legislature clarified the ‘travelling’ statutes — and incidentally told cops to stop arresting people for carrying a pistol while travelling — the Harris County DA ordered his cops to continue arresting travellers with pistols.

    Why he didn’t wind up in the Harris County clink for that little stunt is something I’ll never understand.

    LawDog

  32. Don_M Comment by Don_M

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I watched a news interview with the wife of one of the victims perps. It was one of those obviously staged interviews with the crying baby in the lap to show the “humanity” of the now-dead father and how this child was going to grow up without ever knowing the guy — thanks to the heartless actions of the great white criminal killer. It even came complete with the obligatory picture of the father kissing the baby. “He was a gooooood father,” she wailed.

    blech.

    I love laughing at morons like this woman — types who can’t wait to get on TV, regardless of circumstance, and then proceed to make total fools of themselves. My only thought as she wailed away was, “So — he was supporting you and the little darlings on the proceeds of his illegal activity, was he?” It apparently never occurred to her that perhaps the best thing she could have done as a parent was to get the kids far, far away from this lowlife before anything bad happened to them. Tard.

    Regardless of whether Mr. Horn finds himself in trouble with the law, society owes him a debt of gratitude: He prevented these two scumbags from breaking into anyone else’s home, shed or whatever and stealing property forever. Good riddance.

  33. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    WARNING: Obligatory “Strawman” scenario.
    May cause drowsiness, nausea, vomiting, shingles, irritability, swollen glands, sweating palms, ovulation, unexplainable urges to harm small criminals, headaches, broken keyboards, irritable bowel syndrome, and an errection that may last more than four hours — see a physician.

    Assuming that Misha @ #29 is correct and that a person has unfettered powers to shoot to kill someone he or she perceives to be a criminal — even to the point of going out of your way to do it — then I have to offer these three strawman scenarios:

    1. Say I want to “off” someone. Maybe my neighbor pissed me off by borrowing my lawn mower and not returning it. What is stopping me from simply going over and shooting him, then claim he “stole” the lawn mower from me?

    2. What if I see someone on the street late at night that I know and I don’t like. What is stopping me from shooting him down and then claiming that he came at you and you thought he had a weapon? (you could even go the extra step and plant one on him)

    3. I don’t know my neighbor well. One night I see somone trying to climb in the window so I grab my gun and haul ass over there and tell him to “stop!” He says “fuck you” and you shoot him. Then you find out that it is the neighbor’s kid, sneaking back into the house after being out with his friends.

    I know these are “what ifs” and that they are 100 percent straw. But under the interpretation of the Texas law, what is stopping two premeditated murders from going unpunished, and one accident from happening?

    DJ’s Strawman is for enterainment purposes only. Any resemblence to real or imagined people, places, or things is purely fictional.

    /strawman

    Now getting to the law itself. (I put it back in order, LawDog, so that it followed form):

    Texas Penal Code, § 9.41

    (a) A person in
    lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is
    justified in using force against another when and to the degree the
    actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
    prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on the land or unlawful
    interference with the property.
    (b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible,
    movable property by another is justified in using force against the
    other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force
    is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the
    property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit
    after the dispossession and:
    (1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no
    claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
    (2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using
    force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

    § 9.41 is talking about a person’s own possessions or property to which they alone have a say as to who has permisison to be there or act upon or with it.

    Texas Penal Code, § 9.42

    A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
    tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
    other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
    deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of
    arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
    nighttime,
    or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
    immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
    robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
    property; and
    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or
    recovered by any other means; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to
    protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
    another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. [Emphasis mine]

    § 9.42 is the statute that give the owner or agent of the owner permission to use deadly force, and under what conditions are allowed.

    Notice that 2(A) and 2(B) talk about specific crimes that occur “during the nighttime”. Horn can’t use that statute because the crime occured during the daylight hours.

    He can’t use 3(A) or 3(B) because there was another way to recover the goods — he initiated the phone call to the police and they said they were enroute and that they were almost there.

    Texas Penal Code, § 9.43

    PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON’S PROPERTY. A person
    is justified in using force or deadly force against another to
    protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if,
    under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the
    actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force
    or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
    (1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful
    interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or
    criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
    (2) the actor reasonably believes that:
    (A) the third person has requested his protection
    of the land or property;
    (B) he has a legal duty to protect the third
    person’s land or property; or
    (C) the third person whose land or property he
    uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor’s spouse, parent,
    or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor’s care.

    Since Horn didn’t know the neighbor, (2)a, b, and c wouldn’t apply. Section (1) is the only logical statute. But it can only be used IF he was allowed under § 9.42 to use deadly force. Since it wasn’t night time, and there was another avenue for recovering stolen goods on the way, he might be screwed.

  34. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Interesting scenarios, Deej.

    What is stopping it? Well, technically speaking nothing, but in reality it is a combination of common decency (most people wouldn’t do such a thing even if they thought they could get away with it) and the fact that it might not get past the Grand Jury.

    Surely the prosecutor would do some research and discover that there might be more to this than meets the eye, and if he could present it in a way that would get an indictment, then he’d have all of the time and resources that an actual trial comes with to prove his point.

    So yes, somebody deranged enough might get the idea that he’d get away with it, but that’s still no guarantee that it would work. The latter, combined with common decency, is what would keep most law-abiding citizens from trying in the first place. As to the non-law-abiding citizens, they’re screwed up enough that they wouldn’t think that far, they’d just do it anyway.

    Regarding the second part of your post and keeping in mind that IANAL, you do bring up some good points. I was initially going to brush your argument away by informing you that the “night-time” provisos only apply to theft and criminal mischief, but then I realized after reading on that those were his “escape clauses” under 9.43 so yes, you got that right.

    He’d probably have to resort to (1) and assert that he reasonably believed that he had a legal duty to protect the third person’s property, something that wouldn’t be all that hard to make the case for considering “good samaritan clauses” elsewhere.

    One thing that needs to be pointed out, however, is that the ONLY jeopardy he faces is as a result of the actual shootings. There’s no law stating that he cannot investigate while armed, it ONLY pertains to his actual USE of armed force, and in that respect he’d be off the hook for good if he could convince the Grand Jury that he felt threatened by the goblins. How he GOT to feel threatened is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to determining whether his use of lethal force was appropriate or legally justified, only the immediate circumstances in which he found himself when he pulled the trigger.

    That would be his best course of action before the Grand Jury, if you ask me. Forget about justifying the shooting by the property being burglarized, that would be a thorny issue to navigate through court, justify them by an immediate and credible threat to his person as he confronted the burglars instead.

  35. Mike M Comment by Mike M

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    Since it wasn’t night time, and there was another avenue for recovering stolen goods on the way, he might be screwed.

    DJ, you might be misinterpreting that part of the statute. The way I read it - and it’s definitely possible that I’m the one with the reading comprehension problem - is that the “nighttime” qualifier applies only to the crimes of theft or criminal mischief.

    I read it as:

    A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of

    arson,

    burglary,

    robbery,

    aggravated robbery,

    theft during the nighttime, or

    criminal mischief during the nighttime.

  36. Unregistered Comment by LawDog

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Notice that 2(A) and 2(B) talk about specific crimes that occur “during the nighttime”. Horn can’t use that statute because the crime occured during the daylight hours.

    Ah, no. There are two crimes to which 9.42 applies only at night, and those are: 1) theft; and 2) criminal mischief. Those are the only two limited to nighttime. Burglary — entering into or remaining inside of a residence for the purposes of theft, assault or other felony — is not limited to night time. So, the statute does apply to Mr. Horn.

    He can’t use 3(A) or 3(B) because there was another way to recover the goods — he initiated the phone call to the police and they said they were enroute and that they were almost there.

    State-wide, less than 20% of stolen property is recovered by the police. Would a Reasonable Man believe that returning only one out of every five stolen goods predicates the recovery of these items?

    Since Horn didn’t know the neighbor, (2)a, b, and c wouldn’t apply.

    Texas Grand Juries have decided that 2(A) applies if a Reasonable man could believe that the property owner would want him to protect his property.

    2(B) doesapply if you can show the jury that you believe that every citizen has a legal duty to protect others property — and CCP 18.16 (Preventing the Consequences of Theft) shows that Texas law believes that every citizen has the right to protect property.

    2(C) does not apply.

    LawDog

  37. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    You’re both right about the limitations of the night-time requirement, but I think that Deej’s point was that the homeowner couldn’t simultaneously claim 9.43 (1) and 9.42 (2) (A), since 9.43 (1) specifies theft or criminal mischief.

    But I could be wrong.

  38. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    It could be read both ways. I think this is the prime place for the Rule of lenity:

    Under the common law rule of lenity, courts must strictly construe penal statutes in order to avoid a violation of the due process rights of the accused. Thus, in criminal cases where two reasonable interpretations of a penal statute exist, one inculpating and the other exculpating a defendant, a court must employ the less harsh reading.

    See? Three years of law school when I was a young pup, and I still wound up remembering something. (My parents wanted so bad for me to get my law degree, and follow in their footsteps and it just didn’t interest me. I broke their heart when I suddenly changed majors in my fourth year)

  39. Cannon Fodder Comment by Cannon Fodder

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    It is truly amazing how fast the cops appeared AFTER he shot the perps! Had he not gone outside I guess the cops would have just watched the criminals get away. I can not believe that the law enforcement officers in this country refuse to protect and serve.

  40. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    1. Criminals commit a crime.
    2. Neighbor foils crime.
    3. Criminals take dirt nap.
    4. I’m buying the beers.

    :em03:

  41. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    It is truly amazing how fast the cops appeared AFTER he shot the perps! Had he not gone outside I guess the cops would have just watched the criminals get away. I can not believe that the law enforcement officers in this country refuse to protect and serve.

    Maybe one of the numerous cops who regularly visit this site has an answer for you.

    My roommate and I were just discussing this, and he said that the cops were probably already staging in the area, locking down avenues of escape while more backup arrived. The reason why the dispatcher told Horn not to go outside — especially with a gun is because the cops aren’t going to immediately distinguish him as a friendly. They would see him as a threat and could very well kill him. At the same time it adds confusion to the mix and that might actually make it possible for the bad guys to get away.

    He said that because of the amount of time that elapsed, it was likely there were probably a small army of cops — uniformed and plainclothed — and the last thing they needed was someone like Horn who was bent on taking matters into his own hands.

    Just the fact that Horn had told the dispatcher HE had a gun automatically stepped the call up to a priority call. It is also the reason why the dispatcher stayed on the line with Horn — he needed to keep Horn contained until the cops could take over.

  42. cmblake6 Comment by cmblake6

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    Sounded to me like a good shoot. Not a perfectly clean, eyewitnessed shoot, but a good one. And this was< after all, goblin removal. Chlorine in the gene pool.

  43. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    In many jurisdictions the dispatcher typically is a deputized law enforcement officer. The reason being that when you call 911 you are calling for help, and the dispatcher is not only mobilizing the resources, they are also giving you instructions to follow.

    Well, I don’t know about in my area, but I DO know they aren’t overly brilliant (at least not the one I spoke to). My car died on the interstate, and I had semis and cars roaring past at 70+ mph. I called for help, and when I told her where I was (I was LOOKING at the exit sign), she told me there was no such exit. I told her I was LOOKING AT THE SIGN, and she got snippy, and told me there was NO such exit, and to just calm down. I told her a THIRD time that I was looking right at the sign.

    I finally left my car, and stood by the side of the road. The cops never DID come to my assistance, but fortunately for me, a fender-bender had occurred shortly before, and the cops were there for THAT.

  44. LCBrendan Comment by LCBrendan

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    What I think will happen is that the gentleman in question may het a very hefty talking to, as well as a heavy reprimand for his actions. I doubt they will prosecute, seeing how it will look in the papers…but he will have had his warning.

    Myself, I cant help but applaud his actions in terms of getting two goblins..and at the same time can’t help wondering if he himself didnt exacerbate thngs.

    How he GOT to feel threatened is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to determining whether his use of lethal force was appropriate or legally justified, only the immediate circumstances in which he found himself when he pulled the trigger.

    It could be argued that had he stayed inside, the shooting would not have gone down as it did. Had they entered his house, no argument, justified shoot.

    But they didn’t and they weren’t.

    That’s the nub of it.

  45. LC Robohobo Comment by LC Robohobo

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    That the dispatcher did not tell him there were police outside is wrong. The two perps would be alive had the dispatcher done that one simple thing. The time is way too short between the time he is saying he is going out, the shoot and the cops on scene.

    Cannon Fodder may have it right. The cops were there very quickly.

    I hope this guy does not get prosecuted by the law or sued by the families of those nice children who mistakenly broke into the wrong house looking to help their Grandma. /sarcasm off

  46. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    It could be argued that had he stayed inside, the shooting would not have gone down as it did. Had they entered his house, no argument, justified shoot.

    It certainly could, and I understand your point perfectly, but it’s a silly argument along the lines of “if you’d only handed over your goods/pulled down your knickers and done as the rapist said/stayed at home nothing would’ve happened.”

    He has every right to go out and investigate, and he most certainly has the right to go armed (he’d be nuts if he didn’t under the circumstances). The goblins’ rights, however, were forfeited and waived the moment they chose to break the law.

    Would nothing have happened if he’d stayed inside? Possibly. Or maybe the goblins, encouraged by the easy pickings at the neighbors’ house, would’ve proceeded to his. It’s all irrelevant. He had a right to be where he was and, under Texas law, had no duty to retreat. They didn’t. That’s the bottom line.

  47. Xystus Comment by Xystus

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    I’m still not sure what we’re supposed to be seein’ on the video…

  48. LCBrendan Comment by LCBrendan

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    Listen.Not look.

  49. Unregistered Comment by Les

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Seven minutes is good response time, even in a small town; they have to drive there (safely), after all. Sirens would be off, hopefully, at the point the bad guys can hear them. That is so the bad guys can be caught. I doubt there would be time to accumulate the people to setup a perimeter, and plainclothes officers to enter unless a substation was right down the road. You would usually do good to get a patrol officer and his backup there in that amount of time. Now it could happen a plainclothes officer was nearby, or lived nearby, and got routed there.

    While seven minutes for responders is a frantic, quick dash across town, for people waiting for help, 30 seconds is an eternity. The gentleman concerned was under a great deal of stress; do something or don’t do something, where are the police after all this time! The smartest, politically correct thing to do, of course, was to sit on his hands, don’t get involved, at least this time it might not affect him.
    His decision was made under stress and then he did well under combat stress (he survived). He may not have said the right things under the influence of stress and terror, but he performed well. It may take several years to get over shooting someone. I wish him well.

    The initiating factor was, of course, several men deciding to burglarize a house. But for that, nothing would have happened. I bet anyone who has had their house invaded and defiled will be on the side of the homeowner.

    Les

  50. KarlRove Comment by KarlRove

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    Well i do not think he was in the wrong. He was just defeating to criminals who instead of working for what they wanted. They were stealing it from somebody who did work and earn it. Matter of fact where i live if anybody was caught attempting to or robing somebody they would have been giving only one warning before being taken out.