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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » Remember?
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[”Stickied” to the top of the front page for the rest of the day. Never forget! — Emp.M]

0755, Sunday December 7th, 1941.

uss_arizona.jpg

1178 wounded.

2,043 dead.

Almost 1400 of them in the first 15 minutes when the USS Oklahoma, USS Utah, and the USS Arizona were hit.

 

The Arizona still weeps for the dead.

tears-of-the-arizona.jpg

74 Responses to “Remember?”
  1. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    And it is still heartbreaking today. If i ever make it to Hawaii, this will be a long, sober stop.

  2. Tonto Comment by Tonto

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    Too bad this ain’t the same country it was back then. Those American casualties were avenged, in spades. Our brave troops are sure trying to avenge 9/11 but they’re not getting the support and backing they deserve from Americans nowadays. It’s so very sad to see the bravery, sacrifice and effort of our soldiers, seamen and marines unrecognized and appreciated. Maybe what we need is a new congress, senate and news media.

  3. Intellectual Conservative Comment by Intellectual Conservative

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    Indeed.

    We KNEW how to handle those who give aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war back then.

    A bullet, or a noose.

    God, how I wish we would have the stones to apply that kind of final justice to the MOVEON.ORG / DAILYKOS / DUHHHUnderground types. We ARE at war.

  4. LC Old Dog Comment by LC Old Dog

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    In the house I grew up in we were not allowed to celebrate my Mom’s Birthday. For her Sweet Sixteen would have been Dec 7 1941.

    The Guy who loved Her beyond belief lied about His age and went to be a Tank Commander in a thing called WW-II. He came home a Battlefield Commisioned LT and married that woman.

    For every one of 22 years in my military career she got 16 Red Roses from an unknown source on Dec 7.

    On the day we put her in the ground Dad looked at me and said, “She always knew where those Roses came from and She cursed me like a Dog for raising a Son who would do stupid shit like that.” Then she would look up and say, “We done good didn’t we?”

    Mom, there are six Grandkids who know your name!

    /Blubber Factor Off.

    We ain’t Played Cowboys and Islamists Yet!

  5. DдrтH бдкфи Comment by DдrтH бдкфи

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    They were damn right…

    All they accomplished was to rouse a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve.

    My own mother spent a portion of her childhood in a bomb shelter during WWII. Nottingham UK was a major industrial center, as well as the home of the Royal Enfield Armory (all you creepy SMLE fans can go screw- I like modern weapons. And yes, I’m looking at you, Delftsman!), so the German Socialists bombed them repeatedly.

    My mom’s family fought and died for The Crown- her own father was a disabled Veteran of WWI. My dad’s Joooish family fought for the US, and the ones who didn’t escape Europe died in the death camps and ovens at the hands of said socialists.

    Pearl Harbor Day has a special significance to me, because that’s when one side of my family joined the battle with what would become the other side of my family. Pearl Harbor Day is -quite literally- the reason I exist.

  6. Unregistered Comment by mindy1

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    I will remember. Snopes.com has a pic of a pearl harbor survivor hugging a Marine who was injured in iraq. If any of you can find it, it’s agreat shot.

  7. Unregistered Comment by mindy1

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    The picture I mentioned is http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/embrace.asp

  8. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    Folks, keep in mind that back during WWII, the media was actually supporting the troops, not trying to find ways to shove their socialistic, politically-correct ideas of “peace thru surrendering” to an animalistic ennemy like they do know.

    Have you seen the WWII-produced series “Why we fight”? Even Hollywood supported the troops and understood the necessity of WINNING against brutal, determined ennemies. And the WORLD stood shoulder to shoulder when it became painfully obvious that servitude was to be the result of defeat. Poles, Czechs, French, Greeks, Russians, Danes, Dutch, Australians, New Zealanders, Americans, Canadians, British, Phillipinos, Yugoslavs, and so many more stood as ONE, and wherever and whenever they could, FOUGHT for a common cause. Nobody was fighting alone.

    Where did all of that disappeared to, pray tell, where, so that freedom-loving people everywhere can go and feed off that determination and fortitude displayed by our grand-parents and parents to help them in the present fight? We can’t ask our soldiers to do it all alone, they need our full and unconditional support, not political games and socialists, bleeding-heart oriented MSM backstabbing bullshit.

    Yes, I’ll remember alright. Pearl Harbor, certainly, but also Dieppe, El-Alamein, Tobruk, Kasserine Pass, The Ardennes, D-Day, IwoJima, Tarawa, Guadalcanal, Bataan and Corregidor, Stalingrad, Midway, The Coral Sea, the North Atlantic, Battle of Britain, Norway, Crete, Malta, Verdun, The Marne, The Somme, Vimy and all of those courage-filled places, blood-soaked, yes, but brimming with glory in the name of FREEDOM. All of these places we, as servicemen, carried on our shoulders and in our hearts always.

    And to those who have turned their backs on the cause of freedom, who have removed its very sanctity paid for with the blood of so many courageous people from around the world and murdered it for the sake of this final surrender called political correctness and cowardice, I say TRAITORS!

    To those who want to willingly bow at the feet of our ennemies, I say COWARDS!

    To those who spit in the faces of our soldiers, I say SCUM!

    To those who have caused harm to our troops through their words and actions, I say SHAME!

    To those who will not support our troops and allow them to protect our rights and freedoms, I say LEAVE when a medal-wearing veteran or a soldier is seen near you. You do not deserve to stand on the same ground.

    To those who would rather give up and hand over an easy victory to a barbaric ennemy, I say DIE!

  9. Comment by "Lady H" aka Dori

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    Thinking of modern day Europe today, and how anti-USA and anti-Israel they are, reminded me of a quote I read on another website today.

    Some Spanish writer wrote:

    “The Europeans traded six million Jews who loved life, their children and laughter, for 20 million Muslims who worship the religion of death and will eventually slaughter them.”

    And cut off their bollocks and the will to keep their civilization alive as well.

  10. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Too bad this ain’t the same country it was back then.

    In many ways it is Tanto, just not reported on. But I’ll give you a prime example of exactly how we are the same.

    Saburo Sakai was Japans leading ace until he was wounded and pulled off the lines. He was at Pearl Harbor in the first wave and remarked how surprised he was that, even thought they had achieved total surprise, the first wave received ground fire and some American planes got off the ground and tried to engage the Japs. He said that if it had been the Imperial Fleet caught sleeping like that, none of the first wave aircraft would have been lost.

    On 9/11, when they learned what was actually happening the passengers of Flight 93 fought back as well. In both instances right in the middle of the attack we were able to shake off our complacency and engage our attackers, long before many others would even have realized what was happening. Make no mistake. We as a people are by and large of the same mettle.

    Where we are different is the small yet vocal minority who pursue their own power, vendetta, and agendas above that of the national interest. In WWII the American people rallied behind the flag and put aside their differences (Prior to WWII Roosevelt was not as well loved as he was when he died, despite revisionist claims to the contrary.) to defeat the common enemy. That is what we have lost. Or at least some of us have. To them I concur wholeheartedly with our Canadian brother Hardclimber.

  11. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Has anyone here been to the Arizona Memorial? One day I hope to visit that hallowed site.

    Here’s an excellent site about her.

    A total of 1,177 men died on board, the greatest death toll ever on a US warship. Only 229 bodies were recovered. The rest remain entombed in the wreckage.

  12. ChefJeff Comment by ChefJeff

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    Crunchie….Retired AF guy here. I went to the memorial twice and indeed it is a somber site. The first time I was upset that many Japanese tourists where there talking loudly and taking pictures. The second time I went, there weren’t any Japanese tourists there at the time and it was a quiet and respectful environment. I keep thinking….what if I took a vacation to Japan and went to Hiroshima with my family and laughed and talked and took pictures at ground zero? I think they would be offended as I was that first time.

  13. DaToad Comment by DaToad

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    PHOENIX - Silvestre Herrera, who was awarded the Medal of Honor for his heroism during a World War II battle in France, died on Monday.

    Herrera, who was 90, was pronounced dead by firefighters who were called to his suburban Glendale home by relatives who found him unresponsive in bed, Glendale Fire Department spokesman Daniel Valenzuela said.

    Herrera was the first Arizona resident to win the nation’s highest award for valor during the war.

    Rest in peace Silvestre. Well done, Sir.

    My father and his 4 brothers all served in WWII, as well as 4 of my 5 other uncles. My uncle Mickey, the youngest uncle, was too young for WWII, but served in Korea. I served in Viet Nam, my daughter and her boyfriend both served in Afghanistan.

    Amen Hardclimber

    No, We will never forget.

  14. lc shermpotter Comment by lc shermpotter

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    Gang:

    My Dad, may he rest in peace, enlisted in the navy in December of 1941 after the other services turned him down (he was 5′11 and 120 pounds soaking wet back then). He made it out to the Pacific in March of 1942. He said there was still smoke smouldering off the Arizona three plus months later. They all stood at the rails of their ship as it passed battleship row on its way to the place where the tin cans were tied up. You could still smell the after effects, with oil in the water and smoky type smells everywhere. He served the entire war in destroyer escorts in the Pacific. They were escorting a troop ship convoy into Ulithi when news of Japan surrendering was announced. He was part of the run-up to Operation Olympic which was the aborted invasion of Kyushu. My dad never once doubted the rightness of using the A-bomb. He saw first hand what we were preparing to throw at Japan, and how many men wouldn’t have come home whole or home at all. He continued to despise the Japanese his entire life. Was that right, who is to say? But he never trusted them or liked them. Loved Hawaii, though…

  15. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    DaToad

    My father and his 4 brothers all served in WWII, as well as 4 of my 5 other uncles. My uncle Mickey, the youngest uncle, was too young for WWII, but served in Korea. I served in Viet Nam, my daughter and her boyfriend both served in Afghanistan

    My respects Sir. I also have a son who served in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia with UN missions when he was with our Royal Canadian Regiment. Has transferred to the Navy 6 years ago and will leave the service after 16 years due to back injuries on 14 January 08. My youngest son served 2 years in our Reserve Forces, but decided that a military life was not for him. He is still fiercely loyal and supporting of our troops though…

    And an eternal Thank You to you and your family. It is an Honour to share comments with you Sir.

  16. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Three of my Uncles served in WWII also. My Uncle Ed enlisted in the Corps right out of High School in 42 and was in the Pacific in time for Guadalcanal. He also hated Japs until the day he died. My Uncle Paul enlisted in ‘43 and served as a B-17 bombardier with the 8th Air Force in Europe. My Uncle Robert was already in the Army and was at Pearl Harbor. He said they all expected a Japanese ground assault as well and spent three days in the cane fields of Oahu waiting for it.

    The first time I was upset that many Japanese tourists where there talking loudly and taking pictures.

    To this day they are not taught the truth about WWII and what they did, so that level of disrespect is not surprising to me, sad as it is.

  17. BigDogg Comment by BigDogg

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    Great comments from all above.

    Crunchie, nice summary of the differences in the US between now and then. I agree that, at our core, most of the “heartland” is made of the same stuff as the “Greatest Generation.” The sleeping giant is still here.

    My grandfather was a tail-gunner in the Pacific during WWII - got shot down and was eventually rescued. Went to his grave with shrapnel still in his legs and back. As a child, I always marveled at the stories he told about that time. Now, I marvel at the selfless courage all of those men had.

    God bless them all, and bless this nation.

  18. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    In both instances right in the middle of the attack we were able to shake off our complacency and engage our attackers, long before many others would even have realized what was happening. Make no mistake. We as a people are by and large of the same mettle.

    Indeed, Crunchie.

    To illustrate further, when talking about WWII over in EUnuchistan we liked to joke about how the Americans were awfully slow to join the party, but one thing we NEVER joked about was the conviction, zeal and determination they fought with when they DID join.

    Elderly Germans I knew over there still shuddered involuntarily when they heard a multi-engine turboprop aircraft passing over their heads and, if they are still alive, they still do.

    We’re slow to anger, but when you DO manage to piss us off, we’re merciless.

    The pisslamic fanatics can never hope to win this one, the only choice left to them (as well as those who stand around and are accomplices by their inaction) is whether they want to still be alive when it’s all over.

    Because once the dam breaks, there’s going to be a whole lot of people drowning.

    Just ask the citizens of Dresden, Berlin, Hamburg, Schweinfurt, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, just to name a few.

    Pushing our buttons and keeping up the fight against us isn’t brave. It’s suicide. Because should the pisslamists manage to pull off the Big One, our national bloodthirst will be insatiable. We will start killing and keep on killing ’till long after we run out of targets to kill.

    P.S.: Great post, Crunchie. Thanks so much for putting it up!

  19. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Has anyone here been to the Arizona Memorial?

    There are two hallowed places that I would dearly love to visit if ever possible. The Arizona Memorial….and Arlington. I have never seen either, but just seeing pictures and video brings tears of sadness and gratitude to my eyes.

    G-d Bless those brave souls who we remember today. May we once again find the strength to stand up and be worthy of their sacrifice.

  20. Mike M Comment by Mike M

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    Has anyone here been to the Arizona Memorial?

    I floated by it once, Crunchie - actually twice, coming into port and leaving. Each time we passed, the bosun’s whistle sounded over our ship’s comm system and we were called to attention. Then another blast from the whistle and the entire ship’s company and all embarked Marines rendered a hand salute, which was held until the third whistle and the order, “Carry on”. I understand that’s standard Navy custom when two ships pass and Arizona is still carried on the rolls as a commissioned vessel, but it was a poignant moment, nonetheless.

    The first time I was upset that many Japanese tourists where there talking loudly and taking pictures.

    In the film Final Countdown, one of the opening scenes has a helicopter flying over the Memorial. As it passes, the camera moves to a close-up of the Memorial and that’s exactly what you see; Japanese tourists with cameras. They’re not acting disrespectfully, but it’s an interesting shot in an ironic sort of way, just as the film’s producers intended, I’m sure.

  21. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

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    My dad’s older brother was at Pearl the day it was attacked. Uncle John was aboard the USS Maryland, which was hit, but did not sink. Apparently, the Maryland was next to the Oregon, which capsized after being hit.

    John’s crew helped to evacuate the Oregon, and I was able to find a picture of that fateful day for my father.

    I did some reading on the attack, and it turns out that the Maryland should have been where the Oregon was. She (the Maryland) got into port first, so she was able to take the inside berth. The Oregon was late, so she had to take the outside berth. Apparently, the ones on the outside took the most damage.

    For years, my uncle told his mom that he’d been ashore, in church, when the attack came. I think she knew.

    RIP, Uncle John. Ya done good.

  22. Unregistered Comment by Kirby

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    My grandfather was serving on the Arizona that morning. He was up early for a hot shower when the bombing started. He was part of a group of men that cut away the mooring lines that would have pulled the ships on either side of her down when she sank.

    Luckily he survived that morning. He died on active duty in Spain as a Master Chief.

    I unfortunately never got the honor of meeting this great Man. We need a few more like him and many fewer of the Sean Penn ilk.

  23. BauerPower Comment by BauerPower

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    God Almighty, I am getting depressed at how much less America is like what it was back in the 1940s. Well, in the meantime, let’s remember those who were lost that day and those who fell to avenge them and save the world as we knew it.

    Never Forget.

  24. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    My wife and I spent our honeymoon on Oahu in 1984, at the time I was reading Gordon Prange’s book At Dawn We Slept. I was reading it as prep for visiting Pearl Harbor. We didn’t get over to the Arizona as the shuttles weren’t running the day we visited Pearl. So we just walked around and I gave her the nickel tour, pointing out where certain ships were anchored, what direction the torpedo planes came from and what direction the bombers came from. As she followed me around on my nickel tour, I noticed that a few other tourists…some of them Japanese… had fallen in with us to listen. I remember having a flash of anger when I saw the Japanese tourists, but I continued telling my wife about what happened. The reaction of some of the Japanese was kind of surprising as they seemed almost ignorant of everything I was telling them…..it didn’t make any sense to me at the time until I learned, just as you said Crunchie, that they aren’t taught the real history of what happened…….

    It’s apparent, that in a country where it’s now inappropriate to wish someone Merry Christmas in a public school….and you can’t display the St. Andrews Cross Battle Flag in a discussion of the Civil War because it’s “racist”….and it’s un-PC to call our enemies islamic terrorists, that certain groups and politicians in this nation are trying to erase the legacy of those who have gone before us. They are diminishing the greatness of the defenders of liberty who have assured the freedom we enjoy, and they are doing it to make “the masses” subservient and dependant….
    the left and the socialists want a nation of sheep, not a nation of free Americans.

    When any of you go to visit Pearl Harbor, make a side trip to the Punchbowl, it’s the national cemetary above Pearl. Walk among those graves, read the names….then make those heroes a promise, make a vow to them that you will NEVER let their sacrifice made for the freedom of you and your family be in vain. We all owe them that much.

    Remember them all

  25. LC & IB GuyS Comment by LC & IB GuyS

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    Been to the memorial at Pearl. It is awe-inspiring, to say the least. Even in 89-90 (forget the exact year) there was still oil coming up from her. The Japanise woke “the sleeping giant” back then, and comparisons have been made to 9/11 having done the same. But I wonder. I fear our elitist media, “educators”, and government officals, have over the past 40 some odd years, done everything in their power, to keep this sleeping giant in a drug induced stupor. That there are still (at least I hope so) a large number of folks here in the heartland of America who will still answer the call should it be given, says much about those who have taught (and remember) the current generation about past generations trials and their reactions/resolve, as it does about those who would sacrifice their birthright on the alter of political correctness and or world wide appeasment to the rag headed hoards beating down our gates.

    Had a great uncle and two uncles who served in both theaters during WWII. Dad did time in the AF just missing Korea, I did 20 in the Navy. As long as there are still folks who are willing to answer the call, we will never forget Pearl Harbor or September 11th, 2001. Can we, however, win a two front war? Fighting the barbarians abroad, as well as the traitors, fifth columnists, and near-do-wells here at home?

  26. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Fighting the barbarians abroad, as well as the traitors, fifth columnists, and near-do-wells here at home?

    Part of the reason we’re all here on the Rott, ain’t it?

  27. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

    Part of the reason we’re all here on the Rott, ain’t it?

    And don’t forget the good LC’s from all these other countries willing to stand by your side my friend.
    You will also find more and more Canadians joining the Rott. You are not alone.

  28. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    was sent this quote this morning:

    “War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.” —John Stuart Mill

    ———
    Maybe the military historians (I guess that’s you Crunchie) can verify this. I heard an interview with a guy who was learning how to use the radar at Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7. To him, it looked like a huge mass of planes coming in, but the trainer wrote it off as a fluke of the equipment.

    HC
    Thank you!

  29. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    my father was a paratrooper in WWII. he told me the only reason he survived was because a storm damaged the glider his stick was to be on. every other man in his company was killed or captured on the only jump he missed. he was also in the army of occupation in japan. talk about riding a train that stopped in nagasaki for a few hours. very chilling. while we remember Pearl lets also remember Vietnam. at the ‘peace talks’ the vietnamese delagates were stunned silent when we surrendered without giving them a chance to beg for conditions. we never lost a major battle but still managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. we lost when we started believing the lies in the media. they are still lying.

  30. Radical Redneck Comment by Radical Redneck

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    As one of the few round eyes in this office, it’s always strange here on 12/7.

  31. Mike M Comment by Mike M

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    I heard an interview with a guy who was learning how to use the radar at Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7. To him, it looked like a huge mass of planes coming in, but the trainer wrote it off as a fluke of the equipment.

    PC, the radar operators did detect the incoming Japanese planes and duly reported their observations up the chain. Somebody in a higher pay grade decided that they were seeing a flight of US bombers inbound from the states that was expected to arrive about that time, so they wrote it off. About the same time, a US destroyer was engaging a Japanese mini-submarine that was attempting to penetrate the harbor defenses. That was also reported to command and promptly ignored.

    Here’s a pretty good timeline of the events as they unfolded.

  32. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Somebody in a higher pay grade decided that they were seeing a flight of US bombers inbound from the states that was expected to arrive about that time

    True…there was a flight of B-17’s coming in from the coast. The Hawaiian Radio Stations were told to stay on the air that night to give the planes something to home in on…as well as music for the crews to listen to. The Japanese also used the same radio station signals to judge how close they were to the Islands that morning. The B-17’s arrived right in the thick of the attack and were promptly fired upon….by our guys. The pilots were screaming into the radios that they were Americans and to stop shooting at them. There is a quote supposedly made by one of the B-17 pilots….”What a way to fly into a war…out of gas and out of ammo.”

  33. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    guys

    Thanks. It’s even more sobering to see the time-line.

  34. Unregistered Comment by Azygos

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    I have been to the Memorial years ago. I can still feel that hollow sensation all these years ago. At the time I went the public was not allowed to visit, only Military or former Military were allowed. I visited with my uncle who was AF at the time. For me it was a life changing experience.

  35. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    Azygos

    OT - Did you read my comments on the combat manoeuvers? I tried to keep it basic, how did I do..?

  36. Unregistered Comment by Azygos

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    Hardclimber,

    The island of Corregidor was so small that only eight soldiers at a time could jump out of the plane. Think about that. Eight guys jumping out of a plane to land on an island held by thousands of Japanese. What courage and commitment to liberty and freedom.

  37. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Mike M

    The Jap midget sub incident wasn’t really ignored, they just waited to long to verify the report from the tin can before sending up the COC. Pearl had been through a whole series of alerts before Dec. 7th and COC was starting to get weary of the “Boy who cried wolf”. Despite us being at peace we were pretty tense in the days leading up to the attack and everyone was seeing Tojo behind every corner. In fact Admiral Kimmel blew his top when he learned that a destroyer had fired on a sub a full half hour before the attack began and he didn’t get the report until the first wave was already leaving.

    The radar incident was completely understandable. Radar was a new technology and the operators on duty relatively new at it as well. The watch officer made a perfectly justified decision that the hit was the B-17’s. After all, no one expected a surprise air attack on Pearl. Yamamoto was making quite a gamble hitting Pearl.

    The directions and intel coming from DC were unclear as to true Jap intentions. Everyone suspected something, we knew war was coming but we expected the strikes on the Philippines, Wake and Guam, not Pearl. That’s why the carriers were at sea, they were out looking for a Jap fleet. Thats also why the planes at Hickam and other air bases were lined up wing tip to wing tip like ducks in a shooting gallery. The COC was afraid of sabotage from an enemy agent hiding among all of the Japanese nationals living on Oahu.

    A whole series of mistakes in hindsight, but it’s easy to see the mindset of the time that lead to them being made. Fortunately the Japs made a colossal mistake also. Nagumo was worried because the carriers weren’t at harbor. Being several thousand miles away from home waters with an American carrier strike force some where at sea, he aborted the planned third wave which would have hit the POL and dock facilities. If the POL tanks had been hit, the 7th fleet’s ability to fight back would have been crippled. If the dock and repair facilities had been destroyed or damaged, we would never have been able raise and repair the ships that were sunk or damaged. Or even keep the 7th Fleet in the war. We would have been forced to essentially withdraw back to the West Coast and fight from there, rather than from Hawaii.

    I read somewhere that with the exception of the Arizona and one other, we put every ship sunk or damaged at Pearl back into service. .

  38. Unregistered Comment by Azygos

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    Yes I read them. My brother is a rocket scientist, I’m among other things an electronic engineer so I always razz him about velocity vs speed. Good explanation by the way.

  39. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    Azygos

    What courage and commitment to liberty and freedom.

    No kidding! I wish that kind of dedication would either come back or awake itself in the hearts of ALL the citizens of our respective nations…

  40. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Mrs M

    There’s a famous photo taken by a radio operator on one of the B-17’s of a Jap Val dive bomber squadron flying past them. Let me see if I can find it.

  41. Mike M Comment by Mike M

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    I read somewhere that with the exception of the Arizona and one other, we put every ship sunk or damaged at Pearl back into service.

    And destroyed each and every Japanese plane and ship involved with the Pearl Harbor raid - plus a few more.

  42. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Found it.

    Here’s a Navy web site with a little more info on the incident.

  43. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    PC

    Heres the rest of Mill’s quote.

    “But war, in a good cause, is not the greatest evil which a nation can suffer. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice – a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice – is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.”

    He wrote that in 1862 while in England. I highlighted the most often quoted part of it.

  44. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Thanks Crunchie! That’s one I haven’t seen before. Really gives me the shivers to look at it. Those Jap planes were buzzing around like hornets…..even now it makes me mad to think about it all. :em12:

    I was reading Gordon Prange’s book At Dawn We Slept.

    Excellent book Jaybear. Gordon had a way of writing that gave you tons of detailed information, but managed to keep it interesting without putting you to sleep. If you haven’t read it, you should check out his other book “Miracle at Midway”. It’s as good as “At Dawn…” in my opinion.

  45. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    I got to visit the Arizona in ‘77. It is a moving experience to be there.

    I went with my parents, both WWII vets, Dad an Army radioman in the Pacific, Mom a Navy radioman in California. They both were pissed at the Japanese at the site with their camera’s and their smiles, though I didn’t notice them being any noisier than anyone else.

    To me, the camera’s…well that what Japanese tourists do everywhere they go. The smiles, if I remember correctly, they smile when nervous or uncomfortable. I spent our all-to-short time there just trying to remember everything I could about the site. I can still see the oil rising from the ship.

    To me, it was a very moving experience, and perhaps it’s that I’m from L.A. and use to lots of people around, I was able to block everyone else out and just focus on what I was looking at.

    I also toured the U.S.S. Bowfin, a WWII Navy sub that was docked right nest to the launch to the Arizona. It has been closed for renovation and upgrades for the last few years, but it should be close to or back about now. The men that went out to war in these ships were beyond brave.

    I’ve been watching the History Channel on and off this morning on Pearl Harbor. I’ve seen them all before, many times, but there always seems to be something I’d forgotten or missed from the previous viewings.

  46. lc shermpotter Comment by lc shermpotter

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    Of the ships sunk at Pearl Harbor, only the Arizona(blew up and sank), Oklahoma(eight torpedo hits to port, rolled over and sank) and Utah(bombs and torpedoes, target ship mistaken for a carrier, capsized in shallow berth, never salvaged) were never returned to service. Two turrets off the Arizona were later installed as coastal defense batteries on Oahu. Oklahoma was righted and made floatable. Deemed irrepairable due to cost and was towed back to the US to be scrapped. Mysteriously parted her tow line mid Pacific and sank. Utah still sits on the other side of Ford Island where she sank, rusting away on her side and nearly forgotten. The destroyers Cassin, Downes and Shaw and repair ship Oglala were all eventually repaired and returned to service. If one ever gets the chance, look up information on the salvage job on the Oklahoma. It was quite and engineering feat, and nasty- decomposing bodies, oil and general yuck factor. There is a famous picture somewhere that shows the refloated Oklahoma sitting moored in Pearl next to an Iowa class battleship. The difference is startling- 1912 tech versus 1944. If I can find it, I’ll post it. Let us never forget.

  47. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Mysteriously parted her tow line mid Pacific and sank.

    No mystery about it Sherm, at least not if you’re a superstitious sea faring type. The Oklahoma was heart broken and slipped the line so she could join her sailors in Davy Jones Locker. Or so I heard any ways.

  48. LC Draco Comment by LC Draco

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    The island of Corregidor was so small that only eight soldiers at a time could jump out of the plane. Think about that. Eight guys jumping out of a plane to land on an island held by thousands of Japanese. What courage and commitment to liberty and freedom.

    As an Aggie, Corrigador has special meaning…

    Muster was held in Europe during World War I, where many groups of Aggies were among the American soldiers serving their country in trenches far from home but still a part of the Aggie family. That scenario played out on an even greater scale in World War II, with the most famous Muster held when Gen. George F. Moore, Texas A&M Class of 1908, was the commander of Fort Mills on Corregidor Island in the Philippines. He, along with 25 other Aggies on the island, held a Muster celebration on April 21, 1942, just days before the island fell and all those Aggies were either killed or captured. According to Jerry Cooper, Class of 1963, who is updating a book on Muster speeches, Thomas Dooley, Col. USA (Ret.) who died March 26, 2006 in Hopkinsville, Kentucky at the age of 92, was responsible for the Aggie Muster story being sent from Corregidor before its capture by the Japanese. Dooley’s message resounded in the halls of Congress and was reported across the nation. After the war, in 1946, Aggies who were present among the American armed forces on Corregidor once again held Muster on the island.

  49. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    And destroyed each and every Japanese plane and ship involved with the Pearl Harbor raid - plus a few more.

    I’d say QUITE a few more, eh Mike?

  50. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Something thing that has always moved me about Pearl harbor and our nations response, the first flag that was raised over Suribachi on Iwo (Not the one in Rosenthal’s photo, the first one), had flown on a US destroyer at Pearl that morning. Very fitting that the first US falg to fly over conquered Jap home territory was there that that day.

    It is on display at the Marine Corps Museum in Virginia.

  51. lc shermpotter Comment by lc shermpotter

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    This is a link to the Oklahoma with pictures taken from 1940, during the attack and of the salvage.

    This link will show the picture I mentioned, Oklahoma moored inside the Wisconisn.

    http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h78000/h78940.jpg

    Hope this helps people visualize!

  52. LC Draco Comment by LC Draco

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    Nice posts all, especially Crunchie!! Good history lesson!!! Thanks!

    /salute

    R.L.T.W.

  53. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H

    I’d say QUITE a few more, eh Mike?

    Unknown to the Japanese leadership at the time of the attack, and many military historians will lend me credence, Pearl Harbor was a Japanese defeat. The Fleet, so savagely mauled, was repaired and in many cases, replaced by more modern, better armed vessels not only to fight again, but to inflict losses the Imperial Navy was unable to replace. The Battle of Midway and the Battle of the Coral Sea simply drove the spike of defeat into the very heart of the Japanese Imperial Navy and Army. That it dragged on for so much longer is simply an indication that the military-controlled government of the time simply refused to admit the inevitable. And it cost them dearly.

    When the last plane returned to its carrier and the airmen actually tought they had achieve a great victory, Yamamoto’s words of warning were spoken about having awakened a sleeping giant. He KNEW Japan had no chance to come out victorious, and that the retaliation would be, indeed, terrible. The Battle of Midway confirmed this.

  54. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Harclimber

    Unknown to the Japanese leadership at the time of the attack, and many military historians will lend me credence, Pearl Harbor was a Japanese defeat.

    It was one of those instances of a tactical victory that lead to a strategic defeat. Yamamoto knew what would happen and hoped for at best a strategic draw in which Japan could eventually sue for peace on favorable terms. He also knew that the warlords of Japan would never sue for peace, so he knew that by following his orders he was leading his country to defeat. Perhaps he was lucky those P-38’s shot him down when they did so that he never lived to see the eventual results of his blind obedience.

  55. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    Be ever so thankful for the sacrifices that the American people (both in and out of uniform) made in the four years that followed. While I’m not a fan of Tom Brokaw, he nailed it. The Greatest Generation.

  56. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Utah still sits on the other side of Ford Island where she sank, rusting away on her side and nearly forgotten.

    Here’s a satellite image of her. If you go to the other side of Ford Island opposite the Utah you can also see the Arizona and the Missouri. Arizona’s tears stream towards the Missouri.

  57. Mad Insomniac Comment by Mad Insomniac

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    LC crunchie

    Thanks for the photos and historical links; they are beyond awesome.

    To: All LCs and readers who have served in the armed services
    From: A busted-up civilian with junkyard knees

    Thank you.

  58. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Just found this, the Oklahoma finally gets her memorial. Read those sailors stories.
    God bless them all.

  59. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    If you’re not already a fan of Robert Taylor’s aviation art you soon will be. He specializes in World War II scenes, usually getting technical assistance from pilots who took part in the missions he paints. He’s done two painting of the Pearl Harbor attack, this is my favorite one

    morning thunder

    Mrs M., I have read Miracle at Midway and you’re right…it’s just as good as At Dawn We Slept

    I got a nice surprise when I pulled into the parking lot at the high school today…all of the flags were flying at half staff in remembrance, I’m so grateful that they did that.

  60. Unregistered Comment by Navaldisaster

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    Here’s a story not everyone knows about the U.S.S. Utah.

    If you visit the Arizona, try to visit the Utah.

  61. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Wow Navaldisaster, I never knew that.

  62. Unregistered Comment by Navaldisaster

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    I was stationed in K-bay, lived at Wheeler AAF, shopped at Schofield Barracks and drove past Pearl Harbor and Hickam twice a day. I knew about the attack, just wanted to know more, kind of hard not to considering.
    I also found out what happened to the superstructure of the Arizona, it’s located out on Wiapio piont on the west side of the harbor. Just sitting among the tree rusting away, I’ll see if I can find the article.

  63. Unregistered Comment by Azygos

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    The Thousand Mile War Jaybear and Crunch,

    If you have not read this one it is a must read on the history of WWII

  64. Unregistered Comment by Azygos

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    Nav,

    The mast and anchor are here in Phoenix. I visit there often to walk through the Memorials.

  65. Thresher Redux Comment by Thresher Redux

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    Something thing that has always moved me about Pearl harbor and our nations response, the first flag that was raised over Suribachi on Iwo (Not the one in Rosenthal’s photo, the first one), had flown on a US destroyer at Pearl that morning. Very fitting that the first US falg to fly over conquered Jap home territory was there that that day.

    Someday, I’ll raise that flag over Mecca, Crunchie. :em96:

  66. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    Part of the reason we’re all here on the Rott, ain’t it?

    Yes, crunchie…it is. I somehow suspect, and am reassured that the allure of freedom is not dead in America. Hidden, disguised and distorted in the shitties, it remains a viable and powerful force out in the sticks where I live. You know it is in my town, crunchie. I for one do not regret the firebombing of Tokyo or the savage might of atomic power unleashed over two Japanese cities. My dad hated the Japanese, yet he fought in the European theater. I remembered Pearl today at work……most of all I remembered all our dads that fought in WW2.

  67. LittleRott84 Comment by LittleRott84

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    My Grandpa Robert (my mom’s biological father) was in Pearl Harbor. He had just gotten off of watch and was crawling into his rack (bunk) when his ship got hit, and nearly lost an arm and an ear. He got a Purple Heart for surviving that “day that will forever live in infamy”. He died of liver cancer in 1965. There was also a fellow in our church that was in the Coast Guard at the time Pearl Harbor was hit. He was at chow at the time, I think. Every year on Pearl Harbor day, he would come to our school (the church ran a K-8 school) and tell us about it. He even brought old newspapers from it. He died of a heart attack four years ago.

    RIP Robert Dwyer
    RIP James Elliot

  68. Serious Sean Comment by Serious Sean

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    Rest in peace to all those who were killed in that attack. Truly a “day that will forever live in infamy.”

  69. Unregistered Pingback by 1862, A Good Year For Patriotism « PA Pundits

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    […] Hat Tip: LC 0311 Crunchie I.M.H. […]

  70. Unregistered Pingback by 1862, A Good Year For Patriotism : “7.62mm Justice” ™

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    […] Hat Tip: LC 0311 Crunchie I.M.H. […]

  71. Unregistered Comment by Age of Rifles

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    I have a little chunk of the original Arizona memorial which came glued to a paper placard declaring it authentic; one of my most prized possessions even though it is just a little stone. I believe I got it in 1978 or so when the memorial was replaced.

    After boot camp at RTC Great Lakes, I was sent to Pearl Harbor for a month to await my ship and I was quartered on Ford Island. It was eerie to walk around and see the bullet gouges in the old buildings and you could imagine the place as it was in 1941 as the attack took place.

    Anyway, if you have never visited Pearl and seen the the Arizona hulk lying just under the water you haven’t seen anything, it’s both sad and inspiring.

    Loyal citizen in training (and occasional poster-I need to kill my boss and gain back my freedom)

    -AoR-

  72. hOOt Gibson Comment by hOOt Gibson

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    Made it to the AZ Memorial on R&R back in April of 1970….the oil was popping up to the surface then, still is today some 37 1/2 years later….what a somber place……except for libs like Kerry and Kennedy….they still blame America for pushing the Japs into it……crazy bastards!

    Only mistake we made, was not dropping the big one on Germany and then on our “friends” the Soviets.

    hOOt

  73. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    Azygos recommends:

    The Thousand Mile War

    That’s one I’ve looked at and haven’t bought yet, I’ll be finishing The Day of Battle tonight…it’s the second in a trilogy being written by Rick Atkinson. The first one was about North Africa, and this one is about the war in Sicily and Italy…..both books come highly recommended. That book sounds like a good one to pick up next Azygos

    It’s kind of funny, so many people called Italy the Forgotten front. but we had a pretty bloody front right in our backyard, fought in the Aleutians and hardly anyone knows anything about it.

  74. Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P. Comment by Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P.

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    The Thousand Mile War..

    jaybear

    Buy it. Read it. I had found references to how “difficult” a theater to operate in the Aleutians were in books like Fork Tailed Devil, but I never realized just how bad things were there until I read that one.

    And, unless I am getting confused, (always possible, of course), it has the only account of the Battle of the Comandorski’s that I have ever been able to find. (More detailed than the one in “US Naval Operations in World War II”, at any rate.

    It was a naval battle which could have ended very badly for the USN, but the very thing that marked the end of the line for the U.S. forces was what saved them.

    The heavy cruisers had shot themselves dry of armor piercing projectiles, and switched to high capacity common shell. (Nobody was doing good shooting that day, apparently!), and the Japanese admiral, seeing the drastically enhanced shell splashes around his ship believed that he was being attacked by high level bombers, and that dive and torpedo bombers would not be far behind.

    So he broke off the fight and ran for safer waters.

    Another interesting book on Pearl Harbor and it’s immediate aftermath, “And I Was There”, Edwin P. Layton. Layton was on Admiral Kimmel’s Intelligence staff in the time leading up to 12/7/41, and (IIRC), remained in the same position under Nimitz. He gives a detailed account of the errors that allowed the attack to be successful, and how he believes they came about.

    I believe his book to be partially based on his testimony before the court martial of Admiral Kimmel. Layton never believed that the blame should be laid directly on the shoulders of Kimmel, that some of it should also be laid on his superiors in Washington. He also makes the point that much of the evidence from the court martial, pointed to as “clear warnings that this was going to happen”, was so buried in other traffic that there was no way for Pearl to separate it from the rest. This includes the famous “War Warning” signal in early December.

    As he points out, that was far from the first that Pearl had received over the course of previous year.

    Although, as he does point out, Kimmel was the Officer in Charge, thus it was ultimately his responsibility. But Layton felt that Kimmel should have been charged on the grounds of an ineffective response, as opposed to being willfully unprepared.

    (I loaned that book to my father just before he died, and I haven’t had the chance to re-read it since. Since he was a Marine at the time, (joined 1939, and was angling for orders to report to FMF Pacific at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack), dad had always had a deep interest in eyewitness accounts of the attack. He was reading it before he went into the hospital the last time. I never had a chance to ask him what he thought about it. That was sixteen years ago. I should make time to re-read a few of these books around here someday…)