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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » For Once, A Lawsuit That I Could Get Behind
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The Puppy Blender, who by the way is a law professor, has the following suggestion regarding the Omaha mass murder (link thanks to LC Shamalama):

It seems to me that we’ve reached the point at which a facility that bans firearms, making its patrons unable to defend themselves, should be subject to lawsuit for its failure to protect them. The pattern of mass shootings in “gun free” zones is well-established at this point, and I don’t see why places that take the affirmative step of forcing their law-abiding patrons to go unarmed should get off scot-free.

He’s absolutely right, you know, for all of the reasons that he states.

There is, at this point, no reasonable argument, much less a compelling one, against a correlation between “gun free zones” and the likelihood that they’ll be the target of mass shootings, so nobody making their property a “gun free zone” can convincingly argue that they had no way of knowing or that they were acting in good faith.

At this point, it is abundantly clear to any reasonable person that banning legal carry of weapons poses an increased risk to the individual, so the logical conclusion is that if you ban firearms on the premises, you take it upon yourself to provide adequate security for visitors. And if you fail in doing so (remember that even the mall security guards were unarmed), you become liable.

Sue the shit out of them.

37 Responses to “For Once, A Lawsuit That I Could Get Behind”
  1. Unregistered Comment by Cookie

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    Excellent Point! Ya ain’t alone about gettin behind that one….I would truly LOVE to see a law suit filed in the very near future by the families of victims. Hmmm…this is probably the only time in my life that I’ve ever wished I were a Lawyer… ;-)

  2. Unregistered Comment by Cheryl

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    Sue the shit out of them.

    :em69:

    I agree entirely, Misha. A facility such as a school or shopping center which forbids its patrons to defend themselves should bear the responsibility of providing proper protection. A text message warning just does not cut it. The problem is that the costs of a lawsuit are so high. A class action suit would be the way to go.

  3. DanThePainter Comment by DanThePainter

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    To avoid the suit, expect to see malls and other places post signs saying something like:

    (Large print)
    This establishment is a gun free zone.
    (Small print)
    We expect, but cannot guarantee compliance with this rule. Therefore, we cannot be liable for the actions of our guests.

  4. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    Just hope that this will finally send the message to the leftists, socialists cry-babies wussies of society. Hit them in their pocketbooks if you can’t get them to see reality…

    Gun laws and pretty coloured signs did nothing to save those victims, but maybe a strong lawsuit will make even the most stupid gun-fearing wussy realize the stupidity of advertising free targets, force common sense to take hold, and save possible future victims from going through the same thing.

    However, just you watch, there will be an OUTCRY for even more gun laws! Why? Not enough warm bodies. We all know, at least people with 1/4 of a functionning brain, that leftists DO NOT CARE as long as they can impose their twisted views. 10, 20, 30 victims, so what!? Control, power, dictating their “wisdom”, is all that matters.

  5. Grits Comment by Grits

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    This is interesting. Is there any real liability for governmental entities (federal, state, local) that deny the right of self defense? If this is so, then carry laws may be unnecessary as the liberal elite want to spend YOUR money, not THEIRS. Either Americans have an absolute right to self defense or it is the government’s responsibility. If it is the responsibility of government, then the government is liable to my way of thinking. any insight into this concept? Any previous judicial rulings and precedence?

    Grits.

  6. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    I have this one, small, tiny, maybe insignificant question thought that popped (or poped) into my thought bubble the other day…

    With all of the people in that store that day, how many of them would (or were) carry(ing) in that mall?

    I know a lot of gun owners who carry firearm everywhere they go. They can’t leave the house and go outside unless they have at least one gun within arm’s reach — whether it is an appropriate place for guns or not (Thanksgiving Dinner with the family etc) Then I know others who have guns they keep in a safe but accessable place in the house, but never take carry outside. (about 1:10 ratio there)

    First, we have gun owners who don’t want to be carrying guns everywhere they go — which may be the minority here, but the majority nationwide.

    What I am saying is that I don’t think that if you allowed total unrestricted gun carrying, you would prevent this type of sensless killing.

    From what I understand about THIS particular case is that this kid had his weapon concealed as he brought it into the store, then within seconds of firing and killing his victims, he turned the gun on himself.

    Even if everyone in the entire store was armed to the teeth, how were they supposed to defend themselves against something that took a matter of seconds to perpetrate?

    I am NOT saying that people don’t have the right to defend themselves in any way they can, I am only pointing out that there was probably no way you were going to stop what happened.

  7. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    DJ

    I am only pointing out that there was probably no way you were going to stop what happened.

    i cant argue with any of your points. if i were in the same situation alone my first reaction would be to take cover. then try to respond. if it were over in seconds i might not have time to do anything. most of these types of shootings are not over in seconds and while i may not be able to make a difference having the option to do so legally taken away from me gives me the gipe. :em12:

  8. Unregistered Comment by dwjackman

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    What bothers me is that they have taken away my right to defend myself and replaced it with…NOTHING! A few empty words that basically mean ‘Musn’t do snookums’ are supposed to stop a lunatic? I understand that there likely wasn’t enough time to react to the situation but no one had the chance to try. Did they?

  9. SoldierInGodsArmy Comment by SoldierInGodsArmy

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    I agree with Misha and DJ.

    If someone disarms you against your will, you do not have the “theoretical” possibility of fighting back to protect yourself. Sue them blind, or as my friend Ron says, “Fuck em all but six and make the rest your pallbearers”.

    The Supreme Court agreed to hear the D.C. gun ban appeal. This will have to play out before serious litigation can be properly applied to the Gun Free Zone Tards™ anyway.

    I also agree with DJ that if 50 people in that mall were carrying guns, nothing would have ended differently in this case.

    DanThePainter nailed the near future prediction on this one though.

    Makes you want to scream doesn’t it?

  10. Unregistered Comment by Funkmaster A

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    http://joemerchant24.blogspot.com/2007/12/firsthand-account-of-von-maur-shooting.html

  11. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Thank you for that link Funkmaster.

  12. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    Boy oh boy…put me on that jury…pleaeeease!

  13. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

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    Deej,

    There are some things bothering me even now:

    1. There may have been people carrying (very likely, in fact). True, it happened very quickly. BUT, mall security had him on surveillance both times he entered the store. When he came in the second time, he carried his rifle in a wadded-up hoodie. They even admitted that they were suspicious…that he fit the “profile.” They could have called the police.

    2. Mall security could/perhaps SHOULD have been armed.

    3. SIX minutes elapsed from the 9-11 call to the time the police arrived. By that time, it was all over. Had mall security been armed, perhaps the whole thing would have played out differently.

    I know…it’s easy to entertain coulda/woulda/shoulda…

  14. Unregistered Comment by theshaman

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    I don’t like this idea one bit. Malls are private enterprises, and if a businessman doesnt want guns in his mall he should be able to enforce their prohibition.

  15. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

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    theshaman said:

    I don’t like this idea one bit. Malls are private enterprises, and if a businessman doesnt want guns in his mall he should be able to enforce their prohibition.

    Then that “businessman” (Read:corporation“) should be held liable for not providing enough armed security to ensure the safety of “his” (Read:their“) customers.

    If you force your customers to be unarmed in your establishment, then you’d damn well better provide enough of your own firepower to swiftly take out any and all would-be mass murderers who might want to slaughter your disarmed customers.

    :em96:

    Pretty simple concept, isn’t it?

  16. cmblake6 Comment by cmblake6

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    Well, hell. B.C. said what I was gonna say, so… Yes, the liability should indeed rest on the mall. Or any of these other free-fire zones p.c.ness has provided for the toons. Schools, any of them. If they will not provide a TRULY safe place, they must allow you to attempt to provide for your own safety. Me, I just wouldn’t go.

  17. Unregistered Comment by theshaman

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    B.C. wrote:

    If you force your customers to be unarmed in your establishment, then you’d damn well better provide enough of your own firepower to swiftly take out any and all would-be mass murderers who might want to slaughter your disarmed customers.

    Why the hell should I? I’ll run my mall as I damn well please and if you don’t like it then you can fuck off somewhere else.

  18. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    shaman, yes you can run your mall any damn well you please. If that way happens to be leaving exposed, sub standard electrical wiring next to the water fountain, your choice. But you are then liable if someone is electrocuted. If you knowingly provide an unsafe environment for your patrons, and if you fail to exercise due care, you are responsible for what may happen to them.

    In this case the mall was perfectly within it’s right as a private establishment to set any and all manner of restrictions or codes of conduct on it’s clientèle. However the second they remove a persons ability to defend his self through their policies, then they assume that responsibility themselves.

    They failed. They are therefore liable.

  19. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

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    Quoth’d theshaman:

    Why the hell should I?

    Because you, by your asinine policy of not letting the patrons of your establishment provide for their own security, assumed the role of “protector of your customers”, dickhead.

    I’ll run my mall as I damn well please and if you don’t like it then you can fuck off somewhere else.

    And you’re about to go “fuck off somewhere else” in the blogosphere, asshole.

  20. Mike M Comment by Mike M

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    Hmm…

    Six Wounded, Two Dead, in Separate Colorado Shootings

    “The gunman was killed by a member of the church’s armed security staff…”

  21. Unregistered Comment by theshaman

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    B.C. wrote:

    Because you, by your asinine policy of not letting the patrons of your establishment provide for their own security, assumed the role of “protector of your customers”, dickhead.

    The only role I assumed was the role of “Shopping mall proprietor”, and as shopping mall proprietor I have the right to enact whatever batshit crazy policies I like because it’s my business, built on my property with my fucking money. You, as the consumer, have the right to either (a) play by my rules, or (b) fuck off. I don’t care what you do in your own time with your own money, but don’t you dare presume the right to tell me what to do with mine. Like it or not, you sanctimonious choad, there is a definite market for people who would rather go to a gun-free mall than a mall where everyone was packing. Maybe those people are morons. Maybe they deserve to get shot. I don’t fucking know. What I do know is that I have every right to provide them with the service they desire and that anyone who tries to stop me from doing so is a meddlesome nanny-statist who can’t wipe his own arse without the government steadying his hand.

    And you’re about to go “fuck off somewhere else” in the blogosphere, asshole.

    Threats of banning carry rather more weight when the person doing the banning isn’t such an obnoxious cunt. Do what you fucking like, just don’t expect me to kiss your ass just because you’ve got your finger on the “ban” button. Wanker.

  22. Comment by "Lady H" aka Dori

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    I see your point, theshaman, but looking at the Union Jack on your comment, are you in any way familiar with the suit happy culture of America?

    Someone walks into your establishment and slips in a water puddle on the floor, the someone breaks his hip, guess what? Chances are, you or your insurance company are going to cough up the money to treat Someone and possibly also pay for “lost wages”, “infliction of emotional distress”, even loss of ability of have coital relations with Mrs Someone.

    In US law, you are responsible in large part for the safety of your customers when they are on your (private) property.

    Don’t know how they do it Britain, OTOH.

  23. NevadaDailySteve Comment by NevadaDailySteve

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    Where oh where are the troll hats? Just asking, really. No, it doesn’t have anything to do with the comment above the comment above, why do you ask?

  24. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    Hasn’t this gotten kind of overblown? If you own the mall, you can do as you like, and risk getting sued if there is a violent incident. That’s all been said at steadily increasing volumes with rapidly evolving invective.

  25. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    In US law, you are responsible in large part for the safety of your customers when they are on your (private) property.

    I see theshaman’s point also and agree with both of you to a point.

    IF you are going to ban firearms in YOUR mall, then that is your right. A mall is private property, and the Second Amendment carries no authority there. If you choose to go to that mall, then you also choose to follow their rules — whatever they may be.

    That being said, the property owner has certain responsibiliies also. They must provide a safe environment — even if that means hiring armed security guards if needed.

    Many stores and malls might have problems with their insurance carriers if they publically allow guns on their property. All it takes is one stray bullet from a “good guy’s” gun and the property owners are open to lawsuits.

    My family owns a lot of commercial real estate and there are no posted “guns allowed” signs anywhere. In fact most of the public malls specifically prohibit firearms or weapons of any kind — because the insurance companies require the signage. It doesn’t mean that it is enforced.

  26. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    I let my wallet do the talking. You can choose to ban guns, you also are obligated to provide a safe, secure environment, perhaps armed, trained security guards. But gun bans are a tool of the GFW and their neurotic fantasies. They do not work. Or you can choose to let folks carry concealed. I would feel more secure in the latter environment. carrying or not. After nine-eleven, K-Mart temporarily banned the sale of ammo. I haven’t shopped there since. Target stopped selling cigarettes and got into holiday trees. My response the same. Wal-Mart doesn’t sell the guns they used to here but ammo is plentiful and cheap, they still sell tobacco. Sears is known for their humane treatment of veterans serving.
    Guess where I shop……?
    It’s not just the merchants having a choice…………

  27. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

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    That being said, the property owner has certain responsibiliies also. They must provide a safe environment — even if that means hiring armed security guards if needed.

    I completely agree, Dave. It’s their property and they can make their own damned rules. But, and it’s a BIG “but”, (as in “Rosie O’Donuts-sized”), that requires them to provide for armed, highly trained security.

    And since we’re on a “private property owners should be able to make their own rules” thread here, how about letting private establishment owners decide if they want to allow SMOKING in their PRIVATE ESTABLISHMENTS?

    As theshaman so eloquently put it:

    I’ll run my mall bar, restaurant or whorehouse as I damn well please and if you don’t like it then you can fuck off somewhere else.

    Now, on to the rest of his wonderfully enlightening points of contention:

    Threats of banning carry rather more weight when the person doing the banning isn’t such an obnoxious cunt.

    Hmmmmmmm… Who was it that started with the invective with

    “…if you don’t like it then you can fuck off somewhere else.

    Fire across the bow draws return fire, fuckwit.

    Do what you fucking like, just don’t expect me to kiss your ass just because you’ve got your finger on the “ban” button. Wanker.

    Never asked you to, Mohammed-lover. Now, since you’re such a worthless, cum-gurgling, cock-swallowing fucknozzle, “Buh-bye!“. Tosser.

    See? Isn’t this FUN?!?! :em93:

    Note: If, by some stretch of the imagination, you should find some manners sometime in the future, perhaps someone (as in Misha or one of the other members of Teh Management™) might be able to talk to me into not summarily banning your ass whenever you pop up with a sockpuppet.

  28. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    that requires them to provide for armed, highly trained security.

    Most large malls already do, BC. The smaller, shopping centers, strip malls, department strores typically don’t have armed security, and some don’t have any security at all.

    how about letting private establishment owners decide if they want to allow SMOKING in their PRIVATE ESTABLISHMENTS?

    Well, being a newly non-smoker (after a two-pack per day habit lasting fifteen years) I have no problem with property owners deciding whether or not they should allow smoking or not.

    [I’ll bet you were expecting that “reformed smoker” hysteria about smoking, weren’t you?]

    I think it is up to the property or store owner to decide what is best for their property or store. IF a customer has a problem with the rules of that particular store or property, then they have the choice to follow the rules or to go somewhere else.

    “Legal rights, or “Constitutional rights” are fine for public places on public or common land, but a store, business, or property is private property open to the public under certain specified conditions. If you don’t like those conditions, then you are free to go somewhere else.

  29. Redeard Comment by Redeard

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    The mall can establish whatever rule it likes, however, they MUST provide access to the handicapped (Parking, restrooms, etc.) and allow any race, gender or religion to enter the premises. I’m all in favor of the above, but where in the Constitution is any of that guaranteed, unlike the Right to Keep and Bear Arms?
    If you were to forbid blacks, gays or muslims from your premises, just watch the lawsuits fly.

  30. Unregistered Comment by Sunfish

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    Deej says:

    Most large malls already do, BC. The smaller, shopping centers, strip malls, department strores typically don’t have armed security, and some don’t have any security at all.

    You mean like these highly-skilled professionals?

    I’ve never seen armed security in any mall in Denver. Two or three of them have police substations which may or may not be staffed. The last time I was in a mall, though, I think I was the only one armed in the place.

    Good luck on not smoking, BTW. The first month sucked, but 3-4 years later I feel a hell of a lot better.

  31. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Sunfish I just finished reading your link! :em01: :em01: :em01: :em01: :em01: :em99: :em99: :em99: :em99:

    THANK YOU! That was fucking hilarious!

  32. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    being a newly non-smoker

    congratulations DJ i hope it sticks. i know how tough it can be.

  33. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    You mean like these highly-skilled professionals?

    :em01: :em01:

    I may never again be able to look at a mall guard without dissolving into bouts of hysterical laughter.

    My absolute favorite, but there were many many more, was his “modified Shrikes” mounted on his little mall security golf cart.

    That series of posts has GOT to be one of the most well-executed trolls I’ve ever seen. At the very least I’m certain that “SPECOPS” is a troll having “Gecko45″ on, something for which the latter fell all to easily and predictably, having the IQ of a strained pea.

    Well, at least I can now go to the men’s room at the local mall without fear, knowing that stalwart ninja members of the mall security guards’ community are protecting my “ass-virginity.”

    :em01:

  34. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    Our local mall “the Glendale Galleria” solve the problem, they put a police substation inside the mall. It’s manned by two of Glendale’s finest at all times.

    Of course being there is virtually no way in hell to get a CC permit in Kalifornia, this is a good thing.

  35. Unregistered Comment by theshaman

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    B.C. wrote:

    Fire across the bow draws return fire, fuckwit.

    Absolutely. Very true. I completely agree 100%. With that in mind, let’s review some comments you directed at me in the ‘Ooo, that’s gonna leave a mark’ thread. link

    Originally posted by B.C. Imperial Torturer, emphasis mine.

    After wading through a couple of Shamalamaramadan’s posts and finding him repeatedly using the following bovine fecal droppings, I’ve decided to just laugh derisively at him and his blind faith in The Great Gorebecile™ and his Chompskyite Chicken Littles®:

    ::snip::

    Have fun trying to surf the InterWebTubeNets™ while furiously peddling your recycled tampon-built bicycle/generator and typing on your hemp & soy-built laptop, Spanky. We’ll stick to burning bountiful coal, gas, abiotic oil & firing up nukular reactors.

    BTW, Shamalamaramadan, you really need to start using napkins. Those Kyoto KlimateChange KoolAid® stains don’t do anything for you.

    These were the first words B.C. ever directed towards me. I won’t presume to guess from which fundamental orifice B.C. chose to pull these profundities, but it is sufficient to note their insulting, mocking, derisive, and breathtakingly condescending tone. Now, these were B.C.’s first ever words to me. I had not addressed him at all. At other times, and in other threads I was told by Jackboot to “Use a quick self-conducted medical procedure on your own external reproductive systems…Not that that would be a bad thing in your case.”, again apropos of absolutely nothing. It seems, that on the Rott, civility is essential for newbies but entirely optional for regulars. You can’t have it both ways, guys.

    In this thread, B.C. responded to my first post with aggressive condescension and I just wasn’t in the mood for it. So I asked him to fuck off, a request I am still hoping against hope he will get around to honouring. I don’t feel in the least bit bad about this because the guy seems like an obnoxious jackass who gets a kick out of bullying newbies.

    Never asked you to, Mohammed-lover.

    Hey, B.C? Let me offer you a nice steaming hot cup of “Shut the fuck up!” I have made precisely two Islam related posts since I joined up, both of which can be read in this thread. Kindly tell me which of these posts betrays me as a “Mohammed-lover? You fucking dolt.

  36. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

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    B.C., he’s all yours.

    I’d've done something about theshithead already, but certain people don’t think I’m sexy when I do. (glares towards S. Carolina)

  37. Unregistered Comment by theshaman

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    And…you…are?