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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » Forced to be lucky
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A lucky survivor from the Van Maur mall shooting tells his story here. (H/T Funkmaster A for the link)

When I realized that I had no gun, fear instantly struck me, along with anger, and severe panic.

I ran hard.

A potential sheepdog turned into an instant sheep. He was lucky because he got out alive, but as he so eloquently puts it, he was forced to be lucky because he was legally barred from choosing any other course of action.

I kept going, and due to luck, I was fine. There was only one shooter, and he did not set any boobytraps.

Luck.

God.

Luck.

That’s all. My decisions were fairly limited and all I could do is go where the doors and hallways took me.

Which fortunately was out of the mall and into the parking lot and safety.

I feel that I am alive today because of luck. I chose to run, but it was not a choice. I was forced to run. Many will say that is the right choice. I say it is the choice that requires luck. ALOT of luck with the position I was in.

Use of deadly force at times may also require luck. But, it also depends upon skill, awareness, and practice. These are things I can control, and these are things I trust far more than luck

Indeed. Control over your own destiny. Relying on your self for your own preservation and well being. What a novel concept. Seems to me that used to be what we strove for. Apparently though our betters feel we are better served by “Gun Free Zones”, paying some one else to put their lives on the line to protect us, and illusions of utopian safety rather than the real security of self reliance.

So he was just one of the lucky ones who was far enough away and unseen by the shooter and able to get away right? Not quite.

Honestly, and as God as my witness, when I saw him shooting and as watched for a few seconds trying to figure out what he was going to do and what I should do, the thought that when through my mind was, “If I had a gun, I have a perfect shot.”

Yes, a perfect shot. I had a full side profile, I was close, and no one was visible behind him execept a wall. I had a clear shot during the second round of fire.

He was 30 yards away from the shooter, on his flank, and the shooter was unaware he was there, firing towards his front. It could have ended right there. It very well may have ended right there.

“What if’s” are of course pure conjecture. “If” he had gotten the CCW he had put off. “If” the Van Maur mall hadn’t banned law abiding citizens from exercising the civil liberty of self-defense. “If” he had been carrying that day. “If” he had thought clear enough to engage the shooter. “If” he had gotten off a good shot. Plenty of “If’s”.

But we sure as fuck know what happened when the “if’s” were removed, don’t we.

Just.

One.

Person.

94 Responses to “Forced to be lucky”
  1. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Luck.

    Life is full of luck. Everywhere you go there is luck — good luck and bad. You can’t control either.

    A couple of red lights on the way to the mall and he might have avoided the whole thing — or he might have ended up as the victim, armed or not.

    Which brings me to a point I made earlier today somewhere else here: being armed isn’t a guarantee that you aren’t going to get killed before you ever pull your weapon, and it is no guarantee that it would prevent these deaths that occurred.

    This guy here was 30 yards away from the shooter and if armed could very well have killed him — and good riddance. But at the time this guy was aware of the shooter, how many people had he already shot?

    Beating yourself up over not having a gun in a situation like that is silly.

  2. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    I wouldn’t beat myself over it Dave. I see your point. I’ve been chased by some fucker with a gun and I would have done an antelope proud, ran like a rabbit, over eight foot fences, the gauntlet. But what would devastate me would be seeing my wife killed in front of me and being absolutely helpless aside from using my body as a shield. Yes, it happened so fast, over before it began or so it would seem. And perhaps this nut wouldn’t have cared if folks were armed, a la suicide by cop. But he could have perhaps been driven under cover, slowing down his rate of fire and range of targets. All agree a tragedy of enormous extent.

  3. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    being armed isn’t a guarantee that you aren’t going to get killed before you ever pull your weapon, and it is no guarantee that it would prevent these deaths that occurred.

    You’re right Deej. But NOT having a gun in this situation is a guarantee that SOMEONE other than the psycho asshole is gonna die.

  4. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    You’re right Deej. But NOT having a gun in this situation is a guarantee that SOMEONE other than the psycho asshole is gonna die.

    Actually armed or unarmed — someone is still probably going to die.

    Sure, you MIGHT prevent someone else from getting shot, but usually, by the time you realize that there is someone shooting a gun, someone else is getting shot. Probably more.

    Look, I am in no way saying that you shouldn’t carry your gun and if ever in the situation to take down one of these fucknozzles — to do it. I will be Grand Marshal at your parade.

  5. Thresher Redux Comment by Thresher Redux

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    Deej, it’s about the bleeding probabilities. There’s no guarantee that you wearing a seatbelt will save you from that drunk driver, but it ups your chances considerably. Laws should be passed that increase the chances of the common citizenry surviving these situations.

    Our boys in the Sandbox have no guarantee they won’t be shot in the face, but they still wear torso armor and helmets. Probabilities.

  6. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    being armed isn’t a guarantee that you aren’t going to get killed before you ever pull your weapon, and it is no guarantee that it would prevent these deaths that occurred.

    There’s no such thing as a guarantee in any situation like that.
    Still, an armed person actually has a chance to make a difference whereas an unarmed person would probably become another body on a coroner’s slab.

  7. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    you know, I had this big long screed for DJ. full of links and details, and notes as to why concealed carry was good, and ‘gun free zones’ -cause- violent crime.

    And then I realized. there’s no -point- to it.

    congrats DJ, you are officially not worth talking to.

    On a related note, I havent gone near a mall or shopping center in years. and I dont plan on it.

    I avoid VDZs (Victim Disarmament Zones) like the plague.

    I -wont- fly.

    And I’d sooner leave the house naked then unarmed.

  8. Unregistered Comment by Anthony L.

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    This is why I ignore such “gun free zones” and carry anyway. Given this story, as well as many others, I would strongly encourage others of the Empire to do so as well. There are many arguements for and against defying state or local laws, but I have *personally* decided that I will not allow local government to trump my Constitutional rights. Yes, I do possess a valid CCW in my state, and there are very few places where carrying is not allowed. Like Roguetek, I also avoid VDZ’s whenever possible.

  9. Torg Comment by Torg

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    There are not many people that are more pro-gun than me, but we should leave the fairy tales to the left. This story is blatant B/S. True, an off duty cop or joe citizen with a nice pocket .357 could have smoked the twit. The guy who wrote this crap was probably a thousand miles away when this happened. And the bottom line is the right to shake your fist end where my nose begins. If I say no guns in my house and you don’t like it, stay away. This is why I don’t go to Target (pun not intended but fitting) stores. I don’t have a right to carry a gun on somebody elses property. And yes, things may have been different if it had happened in my state. (Florida) I love living in the gunshine state!

  10. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    From LTC (RET) Dave Grossman (the man who gave us the term “sheepdog”)…

    I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, “I will never be caught without my gun in church.” I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy’s body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, “Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?

    Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn’t bring your gun, you didn’t train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness and horror at your moment of truth. (All emphasis mine.)

    Having encountered enough survivor guilt, PTSD, substance abuse and depression to last me the rest of my life, I’ll say this, once only:

    It may be many things. It is not “silly.”

  11. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    Roguetek
    That’s kind of harsh. It’s relevant to comment on luck. There was nothing against concealed weapons. I could probably benefit from your info, esp since I will probably buy my first handgun soon. Even if I weren’t, intellectual arguments are always worth reading.

  12. Thresher Redux Comment by Thresher Redux

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    congrats DJ, you are officially not worth talking to.

    Yeah, no kidding. There’s a reason that after nearly three years of reading the Rott, my eyes automatically glaze over and I scroll past his comments. But occasionally he says something so… callous and/or pigheaded he just warrants a response. It’s a miniature RCOB moment that compells me.

  13. LCBrendan Comment by LCBrendan

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    Allyn: I can state for a fact, that if there had been ONE armed person at Port Arthur, that fucker Bryant would be dead, and his victims alive.

    It isn’t about guns.It isn’t about gun control.

    It’s about the right to keep and bear arms being prohibited, making you and others a target.

    It’s about an end to gun free zones.

    Why don’t these fuckers ever go after cops?

    Because the cops shoot back.

  14. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    Brendan
    I’m not arguing against concealed carry permits or in favor of gun-free zones. But, am I wrong in understanding that he came in with his gun hidden and that these shootings were done in seconds? Could an armed bystander have gotten their gun out and shot him in that time frame? I may have the time frame wrong and don’t own a gun–I don’t know how quickly you can draw.

  15. LCBrendan Comment by LCBrendan

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    Could an armed bystander have gotten their gun out and shot him in that time frame?

    Read the account.

    He had a perfect five to six second window, no other occupants nearby and a clean shot. One or two rounds to the head and that bastard’d be dead and good riddance.

    Me? I can shoot, both with a handgun and a long gun, I can fire a .22, six rounds (no double taps) and hit a target at 30 yards

    Every single site of a gun massacre is a gun free zone

  16. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    Brendan
    OK. Thanks. I skimmed the account (late here).

    I said I wasn’t arguing in favor of gun free zones.

  17. cmblake6 Comment by cmblake6

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    Look, I am in no way saying that you shouldn’t carry your gun and if ever in the situation to take down one of these fucknozzles — to do it. I will be Grand Marshal at your parade.

    Guys, this time I’m coming to DJs defense. A lot of the time he IS the token liberal that winds us up. A lot of the time he presents some good sense(NOT, mind you, the liberal drivel). The quote above is from him. The negativity that we primarily see, the “probably wouldn’t have stopped it” wasn’t there. He did say it may have helped, might not have stopped it but may well have shortened it. DJ can say reasonable things sometimes, occasionally even makes some sense.
    “Could an armed bystander have gotten their gun out and shot him in that time frame? I may have the time frame wrong and don’t own a gun–I don’t know how quickly you can draw.”
    I’m good at about 1.5 seconds for a two shot drill from concealment. I’m sure most people who carry could do somewhere in the same vicinity. And this guy played the scenario out in his mind, but couldn’t enact his plan.
    “Every single site of a gun massacre is a gun free zone”
    THIS is the scary part. Do WE risk getting busted, or realise that the possibility exists and carry anyway? Why should THAT be a concern? It should not. These laws should NOT exist, that violate our CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. To defense not only of our nation, but of ourselves and others.

  18. The Major Comment by The Major

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    The whole concept of displaying signs that inform one of a “Gun Free Zone” is the kind of utter Kumbaya stoopidity that permeates the what-you-feel-is-more-important-than-common-sense crowd. Display the sign, nobody gets hurt because the message and the laws behind them are powerful JuJu! Law-abiding citizens will do what they always do, leave their arms behind, and the predators do what they always do, predate on the weak (read that “unarmed”) using whatever legal or non-legal weapon at their disposal. Complete immunity from the Kumbaya JuJu, I presume.

    How about a different sign on mall doors:

    Concealed Carry Welcome Here!

    Predator now has a choice:

    Mall A - Anybody could be packin’

    Mall B - Full of unarmed Sheeple

    “Drew, I’ll take what’s inside MALL B!!!”

  19. Unregistered Comment by Age of Rifles

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    I don’t believe its a matter of counting the number of people the shooter had already killed at the point in which this witness could have done something, because that is simply hindsight.

    The next psycho might not blow his own head off but instead reload and take a stroll through the mall, shooting everyone in sight. This unarmed guy had no way of knowing the intentions of the shooter, which might have included chasing after HIM for all he knew; blithely stating that being armed wouldn’t have made a difference is dangerous conjecture.

    Anyhow, I live in Minnesota and proudly partake of the state’s CC law, which includes my own extremely broad interpretation of the Second Amendment; I carry wherever I want, regardless of the signs because that is what the founding fathers decided was my right. Better that I be arrested and fined for defending myself than buried in a hole for not doing so.

    Sig Sauer P228 9mm. I know this site leans .45acp but holy crapoly even the compacts feel like I’m wearing a brick on my belt. Forgive me.

    LC in training,
    -AoR-

  20. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

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    PC

    But, am I wrong in understanding that he came in with his gun hidden and that these shootings were done in seconds?

    You are correct about that part. (Unarmed) mall security had him under surveillance from the time he entered the store. They SAW him carrying something under his hoodie…they admitted they were suspicious.

    Even after the first 9-11 call, it still took cops SIX minutes to arrive…guess they had to “verify” it. By then, the shooter and 8 people were dead, and five were wounded. Nothing the cops could have done.

    However, had mall security been armed, it might have been a different story.

    Ironically, the mall reopened Friday, with BEEFED up security…guns everywhere, from what I could see.

    Funny, one of the largest malls in Omaha won’t allow weapons, but the little bitty office where we can pay our electric bill has an armed guard….

  21. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    (…. and another one of my comments has spiraled off into Tumbolia…. )

    Sig Sauer P228 9mm. I know this site leans .45acp but holy crapoly even the compacts feel like I’m wearing a brick on my belt. Forgive me.

    A handgun, any handgun, pales before a rifle or carbine of practically any caliber. Bear in mind that he chief value in a sidearm lies in its portability, that is, you don’t have to run and get it — it’s right there when you need it, available in an instant. Regardless of how effective a pistol might be, it’s utterly worthless if you’re not carrying it. Conversely, regardless of how ineffective a given pistol might seem, it’s a whole lot better than throwing dirt clods and cursing.

    I commend you to the Gospel of St. George the Magnificent.

    And this, from our departed Guru:

    Apart from the target pistol and plinking pistol, a 22 may serve well as a trainer, and it may be quite useful for personal and home defense. When a handgun is used for defense, it is not usually shot, since its presentation suffices to turn off the argument. Nobody wants to get shot with anything, and both muggers and rapists are not anxious to pursue matters when faced by any sort of pistol.

    As a confirmed 1911/.45 ACP shooter of many decades, I absolve you and bless you, my son. Keep it loaded with the Europellet of your choice and go forth and sin no more.

  22. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    I suppose I could have been more clear, instead of making everyone dig for the pertinent passage:

    Along with the belt were issued two holsters. One made to fit the M1911 Colt .45 automatic and one made to fit the newly issued Colt .380 automatic. The Colt .380 automatic greatly resembled a small version of the M1911 Colt .45, which it was since it was designed from similar specifications.

    One of the most probable reasons that Patton liked the small Colt was because of it’s size and weight. It was a mere 13 ounces, as compared to the Colt .45’s 38 ounces and the 41 ounces of the Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum. Though small, it was a hard hitting pistol.

    Patton liked the Colt .45, but it was a very heavy sidearm. To his nephew, Fred Ayer, Jr., he explained, “People ask me why I swagger, swear, wear flashy uniforms, and sometimes two pistols. Don’t you think these guns get awfully heavy, wearing them all the time? Well, I’m not sure whether or not some of it isn’t my own fault. However that may be, the press, and others have built a picture of me. So, now, no matter how tired or discouraged, or really ill I may be, if I don’t live up to that picture, my men are going to say, ‘The old man’s had it. The old son-of-a-bitch has had it’. Then their own confidence, their own morale will take a big dip.”

    With the “Marshall” belt and the Colt .380 adorned with three stars, Patton had a classy, effective, and attractive combination. It could easily supersede the Colt .45 revolver and at the same time it was a complimentary addition to Patton’s colorful, cavalier uniform.

    Now, if George Patton (!) could carry a .380 over a .45 because he disliked the weight (!!), I can’t find too much fault with your attraction to the Sig.

  23. Unregistered Comment by LC Wes, Imperial Mohel

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    On the previous Rott thread on the Van Maur mall shooting, I posted a link to a Michael Bane blogpost that claimed that, in the wake of the shooting, mall management had ordered that the “NO GUNS” signs be taken down because the suits didn’t want the newsies photographing them as part of the news coverage of the shooting. At the time, Bane hadn’t been able to confirm those reports.

    Well, in this post over at the “Joe’s Crabby Shack” blog, Joe Merchant went over to the Van Maur mall and found proof that, yes, the signs are now gone.

    Hmmm.

  24. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    yes, the signs are now gone.

    Apparently they’re satisfied with the results those signs brought and see no further need for them.

    (I hope they’re sued into oblivion for failing to protect their patrons while denying them the ability to protect themselves.)

    Assholes.

  25. LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H. Comment by LC 0311 crunchie I.M.H.

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    Taking the signs down to avoid the publicity eh? I’m no lawyer type, but that seems to me like an admission of culpability.

    Question now is whether or not they are going to maintain the policy, just not broadcast it. Their sister mall stil has the signs up. Wonder for how long.

  26. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    congrats DJ, you are officially not worth talking to.

    And why is that? Maybe if you take your fingers out of your ears and quit doing that “lalalalala” thing for a moment and go back to read what I said just a little closer, you might comprehend that I never said you couldn’t or shouldn’t have a gun.

    But what I get from a lot of people here and elsewhere is that if just one (or everyone) had a gun, it would prevent someone (besides the gunman) from getting killed — and I disagree.

    Sure, you might be able to prevent a LOT of people getting killed, but by the time you are alerted to the problem of a shooting gunman, he has already gotten off a few shots.

    This is what I am trying to tell you — arming everyone is not going to prevent someone from going in and killing other people — they are insane enough to be doing it regardless.

    A lot of the time he IS the token liberal that winds us up.

    It’s a lonely job here, but someone has to do it.

    The negativity that we primarily see, the “probably wouldn’t have stopped it” wasn’t there.

    Was there a positive way to describe any of this?

    I am just trying to be a realist here.

    You are correct about that part. (Unarmed) mall security had him under surveillance from the time he entered the store. They SAW him carrying something under his hoodie…they admitted they were suspicious.

    This leads me to an obvious question:

    If everyone in the mall were armed, how would anyone determine who was “suspicious”? Just askin’.

    I don’t know how they guard malls in Nebraska, but up here in the Seattle area, we have armed and unarmed security. We also have a lot of off-duty cops in the malls. Even so, it didn’t prevent a shooting at the Tacoma Mall a couple of years ago.

  27. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    Age of Rifles if your concerned with weight try a kel-tec. my 9mm weighs 16oz loaded 10 plus 1. like a revolver you just point and click no safeties to confuse things. if you use glaser safety slugs you dont have to worry about over-penetration ( my main arguement against the 9mm). kel-tec also makes a 380, about 12oz fully loaded. again use glasers, they will drop your target.

  28. Punisher Comment by Punisher

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    Plenty of “if’s” … Damn … i would’nt want to try that shot at 30 yards, with a handgun …

  29. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    Can I ask a stupid question about concealed carry? Oops–too late. I do use a backpack sometimes. I guess you could have a shoulder holster if you were suits or blazers. I usually run around in t-shirts. Would you have a gun in your pocket (and quote Mae West)? That seems kind of dangerous. Where would one hide one in my case?

  30. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    PS. I guess this is academic. My campus would have my head on a platter. Can you lock them in your car, or is that evil?

  31. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

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    DJ,

    But what I get from a lot of people here and elsewhere is that if just one (or everyone) had a gun, it would prevent someone (besides the gunman) from getting killed — and I disagree.

    It would not necessarily have prevented it, but we’ll never know.

    My point with the unarmed guards and Hawkins being under surveillance…had one of the guards been armed, they might have been able to DO something. They watched him get into an elevator…simple…you station guards on each level, and as the elevator opens…

    Also, it seems to me that if there’s a mall where EVERYONE can be armed, a Hawkins-like shooter is less likely to open fire because he won’t know who is packing and who isn’t.

    I gotta quit reading these Omaha shooting threads, I think. I get depressed just thinking about it. I’ve lived here for nearly 30 years, and I couldn’t imagine anything like that happening here.

  32. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    But what I get from a lot of people here and elsewhere is that if just one (or everyone) had a gun, it would prevent someone (besides the gunman) from getting killed — and I disagree.

    (Returning to the original post:)

    “What if’s” are of course pure conjecture. “If” he had gotten the CCW he had put off. “If” the Van Maur mall hadn’t banned law abiding citizens from exercising the civil liberty of self-defense. “If” he had been carrying that day. “If” he had thought clear enough to engage the shooter. “If” he had gotten off a good shot. Plenty of “If’s”.

    Even when the context of the above is considered, I can’t help but conclude that you’ve missed the point.

    No one can say that it “would prevent” only that it might have… which, I maintain, is a far better thing than the plan of shitting your pants and running for your life. We already know the outcome of that strategy.

    Sure, you might be able to prevent a LOT of people getting killed, but by the time you are alerted to the problem of a shooting gunman, he has already gotten off a few shots.

    Meaning what? That he’s already killed several people and is about to kill still more? That he’s a crappy shot (most homicidal types are) and is just getting “warmed up” before he gets down to business? That your puny little concealed pistol is of no use against his “superior firepower”?

    This is what I am trying to tell you — arming everyone is not going to prevent someone from going in and killing other people — they are insane enough to be doing it regardless.

    I don’t think that’s what you’re trying to say at all. I think what you’re trying to say is that you regard survival of a sudden, armed confrontation as a matter of “luck”, not skill, and that you consider armed self-defense and significant parts of the mindset that accompanies it as “silly.”

    Very well, sir. You go your way and I’ll go mine. But pardon me if I seem disinclined to take you seriously on this matter.

  33. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    psychochick there are no stupid questions but sometimes you get stupid answers. if you buy a kel-tec in .32 or .380 you can get a clip (this is NOT a magazine) that attachs to the slide. clip it inside your pants and wear a loose t-shirt over it and no-one will ever know its there. in most states a firearm that is not loaded and locked away is okay because your car is private property no matter where its parked ( your yearly tax bill says so ). check the state trooper/ highway patrol website where you live they usually have a link to lookup laws and statutes. if you dont advertise no-one but us will know how evil you are. :em93:

  34. Punisher Comment by Punisher

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    “Plenty of what if’s” … “a perfect shot. I had a full side profile” … 30 yards is a tough shot with a handgun … just sayin’

  35. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    hilljohnny
    thanks–boy do I have a lot to learn.

    I think I will massively badger my firearms instructor friend. He owes me anyway, for being so obnoxious in internet political debates (and calling me a “fascist.”)

    no-one but us will know how evil you are.

    That does not worry me!

  36. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    Can I ask a stupid question about concealed carry? Oops–too late. I do use a backpack sometimes. I guess you could have a shoulder holster if you were suits or blazers. I usually run around in t-shirts. Would you have a gun in your pocket (and quote Mae West)? That seems kind of dangerous.

    Not necessarily.

    Where would one hide one in my case?

    Ummmm….

    PS. I guess this is academic. My campus would have my head on a platter. Can you lock them in your car, or is that evil?

    I don’t know your state, but if it’s unlawful to carry concealed on campus, it’s usually unlawful to keep it in your car on campus property, too. :(

    Before you go any further, hie thee forth to the Imperial Firearms Advisor’s place and read up a bit.

    Welcome.

  37. Unregistered Pingback by Daily Pundit » Sue Them

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    […] Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » Forced to be lucky On the previous Rott thread on the Van Maur mall shooting, I posted a link to a Michael Bane blogpost that claimed that, in the wake of the shooting, mall management had ordered that the “NO GUNS” signs be taken down because the suits didn’t want the newsies photographing them as part of the news coverage of the shooting. At the time, Bane hadn’t been able to confirm those reports. […]

  38. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

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    Two more shootings today…this time in Colorado. One at the YWAM base in Arvada (near Denver)…two people killed, two injured–one critically. The second at Ted Haggard’s church (parking lot) near Colorado Springs. Four people shot…no word on them as yet.

    TIME TO MAKE ALL STATES OPEN CARRY!!!!

  39. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    How horrible.

    My condolences and thoughts lie with their families. :(

  40. cmblake6 Comment by cmblake6

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    Again, even though you may not have stopped the killings the perp had already committed, if he had been taken out after 2, that would have saved the other 6. That would have been good. Yeah, 30 yards is a long shot with a small, concealable firearm. But not impossible. And however many lives that had NOT been taken yet would have been saved. I can’t understand the philosophy of if-the-guy-has-already-started-it’s-too-late. Stop him/her/it before they go any further! If he had had a gun. He should have, that’s the point.

  41. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    intellectual arguments are always worth reading.

    Pyschochick

    yes, they are. DJ, particularly of late, has been neither. And ,as such, is no longer worth talking to. He has his own little world between his left ear and his right, and dont confuse him with the facts.

    I’m sorry but he’s reached the point where he is dull, repetive, and combative. he doesnt have anything new to say, so he just say the old shit louder.

    It’s still wrong.

    And what -really- kills me, is that when people turn away from him, and ignore him, he cant seem to figure out why.

  42. sig94 Comment by sig94

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    It was what it was and everything else is conjecture. Coulda, woulda, shoulda do not bring back the dead.

    The cops come in after it is all over - we take pictures of the blood and gore, collect the empty shell casings (unless a revolver was used), photograph/videotape the living daylights out of everything and watch the ME tag/bag the bodies.

    The Feds say that there are 569,149 cops in the USA, but there are approximately 80 million gun owners. Do the math.

    Deej, I think we need to bring the discussion to another level. That is, the number of Defensive Gun Uses (DGU) in this country. Best estimates are anywhere from 800,00 to 2.5 million PER YEAR. One of the most comprehensive surveys was done by Prof. Gary Kleck in 1993 - his survey was accepted by the US Dept. of Justice. Not much work on this issue and on the efficacy of gun control laws has been done because the results are so disappointing to liberal institutions. If the survey’s methodology is done properly, it shows that firearms are an efficacious crime prevention measure.

    Dr.Kleck states:

    Up until about 1976 or so, there was little reliable scholarly information on the link between violence and weaponry. Consequently, everyone, scholars included, was free to believe whatever they liked about guns and gun control. There was no scientific evidence to interfere with the free play of personal bias. It was easy to be a “true believer” in the advisability of gun control and the uniformly detrimental effects of gun availability (or the opposite positions) because there was so little relevant information to shake one’s faith. When I began my research on guns in 1976, like most academics, I was a believer in the “anti-gun” thesis, i.e. the idea that gun availability has a net positive effect on the frequency and/or seriousness of violent acts.

    [Subsequent research] has caused me to move beyond even the skeptic position. I now believe that the best currently available evidence, imperfect though it is (and must always be), indicates that general gun availability has no measurable net positive effect on rates of homicide, suicide, robbery, assault, rape, or burglary in the U[nited] S[tates]. This is not the same as saying gun availability has no effects on violence–it has many effects on the likelihood of attack, injury, death, and crime completion, but these effects work in both violence-increasing and violence-decreasing directions, with the effects largely canceling out. [emph. mine] For example, when aggressors have guns, they are (1) less likely to physically attack their victims, (2) less likely to injure the victim given an attack, but (3) more likely to kill the victim, given an injury. Further, when victims have guns, it is less likely aggressors will attack or injure them and less likely they will lose property in a robbery. At the aggregate level, in both the best available time series and cross-sectional studies, the overall net effect of gun availability on total rates of violence is not significantly different from zero. The positive associations often found between aggregate levels of violence and gun ownership appear to be primarily due to violence increasing gun ownership, rather than the reverse. Gun availability does affect the rates of gun violence (e.g. the gun homicide rate, gun suicide rate, gun robbery rate) and the fraction of violent acts which involve guns (e.g. the percent of homicides, suicides or robberies committed with guns); it just does not affect total rates of violence (total homicide rate, total suicide rate, total robbery rate, etc.).
    —Gary Kleck, Address to the National Academy of Sciences/National Research Council Panel on the Understanding and Prevention of Violence (Apr. 3, 1990) (prepared statement, on file with the Tennessee Law Review).

    It some respects this does not sit well with either the anti-gun or pro-gun camps. I believe that violence is more of a cultural issue than a gun issue. But after thirty-three years in LE I have seen enough and I am tired of guessing. There are no easy fixes or instant programs to right this mess. Our popular culture and the sub-cultures within it are corrupt. The availability of guns runs a distant second to our propensity to use violence against each other.

    In the long run, I am against gun control. It just doesn’t work so drop the feel good charade and unleash the Second Amendment.

    Psycho Chick - carry what is comfortable for you. Try to shoot a variety of handguns with different calibers. Once you select your weapon, practise with it religiously; become proficient with it. Most shootings take place within fifteen feet or less so don’t be too concerned with nailing the 25 yard targets. And for goodness sake don’t carry if you are not willing to use it. Good luck.

  43. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    Sig
    Thanks–I’m sure I’ll benefit greatly from yours and some other’s advice. Obviously, this is all new to me. I wouldn’t have known to focus on the shorter distances, for instance.

    I live in a really safe place and shouldn’t need a weapon. Whenever I say that, someone links to some safe neighborhood that just had a gruesome murder.

  44. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    yes, they are. DJ, particularly of late, has been neither. And ,as such, is no longer worth talking to.

    Because I dare to have a different viewpoint from yours?

    You only want to talk when the other person agrees with you? How narrow your life must be. Notice I have no problem coming over here and talking to you — because contrary to what you might think, I actually gain something from the conversation.

    Like you, I am wrong a lot of times — the difference is, I can admit it. I am able to listen to all sides of a topic — maybe act as a foil to your arguments — for the purpose of objectivity.

    Sure, I could just hang out at Liberal sites and get all of my thoughts and form all of my opinions based solely on a one-sided echo-chamber. Instead, I choose to come to sites like this and throw out MY two cents worth.

    Perhaps you fail to notice sometimes that I might actually agree with a lot of the stuff here — and sometimes I can reach an agreement by different avenues than the one you chose. (example in point: Hillary Clinton)

    Now in this particular thread, you should have noticed that NOTHING I said would even suggest that people shouldn’t carry firearms in the mall.

    What i do question is the idea that by carrying firearms you are somehow going to prevent these kinds of acts, or that a gunman “might think twice before shooting up a mall”.

    I strongly disagree, because these gunmen have already come to terms with the fact of their death long before entering the mall (or school, or church, etc) They come to those places to share their dispair with others, and whether YOU kill them or they turn the gun on themselves, they are going to try to take some people with them.

    Use your firearms to protect you and yours. But don’t expect it to be the cure for senseless shootings in public. The only “success” one of these gunmen is looking for is to create some measure of havoc before he is killed or kills himself — usually the later.

    There, all I did was put all of this into perspective.

  45. Paladin Comment by Paladin

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    I also usually run around in (but politically incorrect) t-shirts in the summer time. I use “Thunderwear” for deep concealment of my Mauser HsC in .380 loaded with highly accurate Silvertips good for at least 50 yds, along with another mag. in that underwear rig’s 2nd pocket. Get one!
    Otherwise an ankle rig worn under not-tapered jeans is used. I would have taken the shot without warning if I was close enough for a clean one.

  46. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    I live in a really safe place and shouldn’t need a weapon. Whenever I say that, someone links to some safe neighborhood that just had a gruesome murder.

    “He who goes unarmed in paradise had better be sure that is where he is.” — James Thurber

    Some additional items for your reading list, to be perused in your ample leisure time ;)…

    A Nation of Cowards

    Close Range Interpersonal Crisis Management

    A few quotes and maxims from the Late Guru

  47. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    Paladin
    I know that means something–warrior?

    Actually I wear Dr. Martens with loose pants over them, so I might be able to use them. Highly illegal, though.

    Moriarty
    I already bought the Nazi death book you recommended. Are you trying to kill me? :em93: Thanks. I’ll take a peak at them. I better link the thread.

  48. cmblake6 Comment by cmblake6

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    Now in this particular thread, you should have noticed that NOTHING I said would even suggest that people shouldn’t carry firearms in the mall.

    I came to your defense, this was true.

    What i do question is the idea that by carrying firearms you are somehow going to prevent these kinds of acts, or that a gunman “might think twice before shooting up a mall”.

    We didn’t say “prevent” just stop before it goes any further than it has. If the guy/gal has already decided to go out a’blazin’, sure he will. But for the love of God try to help as many people as possible before it goes any further than it has. I think Deej has that down, and he’s on our side here.

  49. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    sig94

    And for goodness sake don’t carry if you are not willing to use it.

    theres the problem. you dont know until it happens how your going to react. practice, both mental and physical is the only way to get ready. when it happens you may not have time to think.

  50. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    Right Wing Death Beast Reading List…

    Nazi death book.

    It’s a fine line.

    theres the problem. you dont know until it happens how your going to react. practice, both mental and physical is the only way to get ready. when it happens you may not have time to think.

    More to the point, you will likely not have time to think at all. You will simply react as your training has dictated, for better or worse.

    Not to drag Cooper into this again, but yes, it’s that important:

    Combat Mindset - The Cooper Color Code (via Wikipedia, my emphasis added)

    The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation is, according to Cooper, neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in Principles of Personal Defense.

    In the chapter on awareness, Cooper presents an adaptation of the Marine Corps system to differentiate states of readiness:

    * White - Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be “Oh my God! This can’t be happening to me.”

    * Yellow - Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that “today could be the day I may have to defend myself.” You are simply aware that the world is an unfriendly place and that you are prepared to do something, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that “I may have to SHOOT today.” You don’t have to be armed in this state but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don’t know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to “Watch your six”. In Yellow, you are “taking in” surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep.

    * Orange - Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has gotten your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to “I may have to shoot HIM today.” In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: “If that goblin does “x”, I will need to stop him.” Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.

    * Red - Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger has been “tripped” (established back in Condition Orange). You take appropriate action.

    The U.S.M.C. also uses “Condition Black” as actively engaged in combat, as do some of his successors, but Cooper always felt this is an unnecessary step and not in keeping with the mindset definitions.

    Also note that the Color Code was never meant to be a warning system. Rather, the Color Code was designed to be a mental crutch. It was designed to allow someone to “get over” the resistance that a normal person has in pointing a pistol at the center of someone’s chest and pulling the trigger.

    In short, the Color Code helps you “think” in a fight. As the level of danger increases, your resistance to shoot decreases. If you ever do go to Condition Red, the decision to use lethal force has already been made (your “mental trigger” has been tripped).

    In “White” your options for response are nearly limitless, as you are unprepared for (and largely unaware of) what might constitute a proper response to a threat.

    By “Red” the options have narrowed to a simple “press/don’t press” of the trigger.

    Cooper once defined the Color Code as a “weapon” in its own right. If you are mindful of it, you can remove the thin veneer of civilization that influences our behavior at will and expose The Machine that lies beneath, also for better or worse.

    Something to ponder in these dangerous times.

  51. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    Moriarty
    Thanks!

    I just found out I won’t get trained until Feb, instead of this weekend, like I thought. Except for training people, I’m not known for my patience. Grrr. I guess I could pay someone locally, but I’ll be nervous and would way rather be trained by a friend. (even if he is an internet phantom I’ve never met)

  52. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    Roguetek
    Actually, it was you I was referring to. Not what you think. You had said that you had prepared all sorts of information and then didn’t bother posting, because you were fed up with DJ. I was kind of hinting that I would have liked to see your information myself. That’s why I said the comment about info being worth presenting.

  53. Gringo Infidel Comment by Gringo Infidel

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    psychochick,

    If you aren’t going to get trained until February, spend some time at a gun shop or go to a gun show and try some guns on for size. The most important thing that you can do is to get a gun that fits you. Find what fits and practice, practice. As for carrying, there are lots of options, I have been legal with CCW for 25 years and have carried everywhere except airports and governmental buildings. Lived in a drug infested neighborhood in the 80’s and carried to and into the local university. If you carry right, no one will know, unless you want then to.

    Goodluck!

  54. sig94 Comment by sig94

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    LC Moriarity -
    Absolutely correct. It is hard for the uninitiated to get into the proper mindset. Most people are pretty unassuming until something grabs their attention; and by then it is sometimes too late to avoid a confrontation. It is tough to go from code white to code red in an instant, but adrenalin is a God-given wonder drug. And that is where the training comes into play. When the adrenalin rush hits you, part of your brain shuts down and your focus narrows. What happens next is based on what you have prepared to do over and over again. The Greek word for discipline is gumnazo - this is where we get the word gymnasium and gymnist from. It implies exercise and practice (while naked, which was the Greek custom). There is a mental discipline to self protection/situation awareness that sheeple are unaware of or too lazy to commit to.

    There is another component to the combat mindset, it is a survivors mindset. Fortunately I have never found myself gravely wounded. Hurt ? Yes, and so incredibly pissed off that I didn’t know I had to go to the hospital until it was all over. But others have been. The LAPD put out a great LE training film on surviving critical woundings. Some cop surviviors related why they kept fighting even though they could feel the very life sliding out of them. For one it was his kids, for another his wife. But their focus was on living for someone else.

  55. Torg Comment by Torg

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    I see Col. Cooper is being mentioned here. You guys should go to the following link and read Col. Rex Applegate’s presentation to police instructors. He does not think Col. Cooper’s system works, and he backs it up with statistics. (lots of other good stuff on this page)
    http://www.gutterfighting.org/gun.html

  56. psychochick, LC Comment by psychochick, LC

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    Torg
    Cambodia!! welcome.

  57. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    I see Col. Cooper is being mentioned here. You guys should go to the following link and read Col. Rex Applegate’s presentation to police instructors.

    Been there, done that. Read “Kill or Get Killed” (including the WWII edition) and The Close Combat Files of Colonel Rex Applegate (on the shelf behind me as I write this), studied everything from Earp (yes, Wyatt) through McGivern, Keith, Jordan and beyond. Practiced “instinctive” point shooting using a “combat crouch” and a “convulsive grip” extensively for over a year.

    Guess what?

    It’s no faster for me than a modified Weaver (assuming you raise the pistol to eye level, as Applegate, Fairbairn and Sykes recommend) and I can’t hit a damn thing with it regardless, especially on a followup shot. (And heaven forbid you should have to engage more than one target by pivoting your whole body, like Applegate taught. That’s not only inaccurate as hell, it’s slow.)

    Cooper was the first person to apply unrelenting, scientific, critical method to develop and ruthlessly improve a technique of pistolcraft, instead of cataloging the folklore, teaching it as gospel and hoping for the best. That one of Cooper’s pupils drew and put lead on target from a Weaver stance with a “flash sight picture” in 0.39 seconds is more than adequate proof to me that the Modern Technique is not only accurate — it’s more than fast enough.

    (Frankly, though, Cooper never eschewed the idea of point shooting if it worked for you. But he did take pains to point out that it was far easier to teach a person to become a competent shot if they used both hands.)

    Don’t care much for Cooper? (He was often characterized — usually by people who had never met him — as an arrogant, dogmatic, irascible character, though not always without justification.) See what one of his competitors (John Farnam) has to report:

    21 June 02

    On current shooting fads, from an LEO trainer in the Midwest:

    “It amazes me the number of guys who unhesitatingly leap onto every bandwagon that comes along, not because it’s superior, but because they so desperately want to be relevant.

    Two years ago, a group of our guys became all fired up with the ‘Israeli shooting technique.’ This is the one where your first move is to draw and then chamber a round, because your pistol is carried unloaded. I don’t know about you, but I customarily carry my pistol loaded, so I was never able to see the point. However, if you put ‘Israeli’ or ‘Tactical’ in the title, kiddies will predictably flock to your door.

    Last year I went to a regional seminar. One-handed, unaimed shooting was all the rage then. This shooting technique rears its ugly head every few years, until its most ardent promoters demonstrate authoritatively that even they can’t hit anything.

    This year, several of our guys went to a seminar on the ‘Central Axis Relock’ pistol technique. It is basically a Weaver, contorted and turned sideways. In addition to being strained, one actually blocks his vision to one side, because his arm gets in the way. It is just another dreary reinvention of the wheel. However, these guys were ALL fired up. Mostly I think, because it is their chance to be trendy, ‘cutting edge,’ and all that. When they get old (like us), they will, like us, have lived long enough to have seen this twaddle periodically recycled, under a new and trendy term, every few years.

    I had to ask them, ‘Does any of this stuff work significantly better than what we do now?’”

  58. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    We didn’t say “prevent” just stop before it goes any further than it has.

    I have heard the gist of this here before — in other shooting stories. In fact, I think I saw someone mention something like that in this thread.

    I missed this one earlier:

    I don’t think that’s what you’re trying to say at all. I think what you’re trying to say is that you regard survival of a sudden, armed confrontation as a matter of “luck”, not skill, and that you consider armed self-defense and significant parts of the mindset that accompanies it as “silly.”

    I thought I was pretty clear. But if not, I will highlight it for you:

    I am not against anyone carrying a gun.

    Carry two or three if it makes you feel safer. I personally don’t feel the need — but that’s just me. I know that I could die any day now, and spending my time worrying about it happening isn’t going to change anything.

    What I am saying and ONLY what I am saying is that you carrying a gun is not going to stop senseless shootings by senseless people. You MIGHT be able to pin someone down or take him out of the box and like I said: if you do that I will be the Grand Marshal at your parade. I will be the first to congratulate you for your marksmanship.

    As far as malls not allowing you to carry weapons — complain to the insurance companies, not the property owners. It is private property and the owners — through their insurance carriers — are liable for any stray bullet you might fire.

  59. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    I thought I was pretty clear. But if not, I will highlight it for you:

    I am not against anyone carrying a gun.

    Allow me to clarify:

    I don’t care whether you think that you (or anyone else) should or should not carry a firearm.

    Here’s the matter:

    Which brings me to a point I made earlier today somewhere else here: being armed isn’t a guarantee that you aren’t going to get killed before you ever pull your weapon, and it is no guarantee that it would prevent these deaths that occurred.

    Fair enough.

    But what I get from a lot of people here and elsewhere is that if just one (or everyone) had a gun, it would prevent someone (besides the gunman) from getting killed — and I disagree.

    Beating yourself up over not having a gun in a situation like that is silly.

    To recapitulate:

    Being armed does not presuppose that you’re going to prevent someone (including yourself) from getting killed by an armed assailant. (Fairly obvious, one hopes.)

    But further, it’s a disagreeable proposition to you that anyone (or any number of people) carrying a firearm would be in a position to prevent someone from being killed.

    You regard as “silly” the turmoil that someone may feel over not being able to intervene because they were not — but could have been — armed.

    Again,

    Very well, sir. You go your way and I’ll go mine. But pardon me if I seem disinclined to take you seriously on this matter.

  60. Panzermann403 Comment by Panzermann403

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    If that first-hand account of being defenseless isn’t the best advocation for a legally armed and trained populace, then I don’t know what is.

    Now all I need to do is convince all the panty-waist socialist nanny-statists here in Europe that as sons and daughters of vikings, crusaders and landsers, we have a god-given right to be armed to the teeth. We shouldn’t need anybody else to keep us save.

    We almost killed every single soul in Europe during the 30-years war, we kicked the mooselimbs out of Europe at Vienna 1683, we kicked Napoleon back to France at Leipzig 1813 and generally scared the French more times than I can count.

    I think we can take care of ourselves. We bloody well should. Concealed Carry licensing for all of Europe !!!

  61. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    I’m an idiot for doing it, but I’ve got some time to kill, so here goes.

    DJ, all the fine comments below belong to you.

    Which brings me to a point I made earlier today somewhere else here: being armed isn’t a guarantee that you aren’t going to get killed before you ever pull your weapon, and it is no guarantee that it would prevent these deaths that occurred.

    Actually armed or unarmed — someone is still probably going to die.

    Sure, you MIGHT prevent someone else from getting shot, but usually, by the time you realize that there is someone shooting a gun, someone else is getting shot. Probably more.

    But what I get from a lot of people here and elsewhere is that if just one (or everyone) had a gun, it would prevent someone (besides the gunman) from getting killed — and I disagree.

    Sure, you might be able to prevent a LOT of people getting killed, but by the time you are alerted to the problem of a shooting gunman, he has already gotten off a few shots.

    So because the bad guy managed to kill someone, we shouldnt even try? “whups he shot first, better roll over and beg for our lives.”. I dont know about you, but -I- can count. The number of casualties if we allow the bad guy to have his way is going to be -much- higher than if he is forcebly stopped.

    You state that at least -some- people will get hurt. You -imply- that because of this, you shouldnt even try. The level of non-logic to this concept baffles me.

    When good people fight bad people, people get hurt. When good people -dont- fight bad people, even -more- people get hurt. this happens because good people will stop fighting when the bad guys are beaten. Bad guys will keep fighting until they feel like stopping. The path of least bloodshed is to fight the little bastards as hard, as often and as eary as you can.

    This is what I am trying to tell you — arming everyone is not going to prevent someone from going in and killing other people — they are insane enough to be doing it regardless.

    Really? When was the last time you heard of a shooting at a gun show, or a nra convention, or a civil war re-enactors camp? Or any other place when large groups of armed individuals gather that -isnt- an actual war zone. Please note, this includes non firearm weapons such as mideval re-enactors.

    And why is that? Maybe if you take your fingers out of your ears and quit doing that “lalalalala” thing for a moment and go back to read what I said just a little closer, you might comprehend that I never said you couldn’t or shouldn’t have a gun.

    and now for the money shot.

    You dont -say- anything. You imply volumes with the comfort of knowing you can come back and say ‘but that’s not what I -meant-’

    If, as you say, there’s no point to it, and no deterrent value, then why have one?

    The underlying implication in you commentary being you -shouldnt- have one.

    And this of course, will solve nothing, change nothing, and I’ll get to read more whiney posts from you implying how stupid and childish I am because I cannot see your enlightened point of view.

  62. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    Regressing into a past life, I recalled something:

    Locus of control theory is a concept in between psychology and sociology, related to where individuals conceptually place responsibility, choice, and control for events in their lives. It distinguishes between two common approaches, which place the actual control either internal or external to the person themselves. This decision, which is not usually within conscious awareness, strongly influences motivation and a sense of self direction and psychological integrity on the one hand (if seen as something outside the control of the person themselves), and supports notions of helplessness, blame, and lack of psychological potency on the other (if seen as something held by others or by ones self).

    Now, I have neither the time, the desire, the opportunity nor the expertise to indulge in a crappy pop-psych analysis of anyone. But it’s an interesting question to consider whether certain political perspectives are associated with an internal locus of control (e.g., “skill matters more”) vs. external (e.g., “luck matters more.”)

    The folklore, at least, suggests that one end of the political spectrum is practically defined by “helplessness, blame, and lack of psychological potency.”

    Eh. Something to mull over in the shower, on a Monday, before work.

  63. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    Folks, unless I completely missed the points offered by some, and considering the fact that, yes, whether you have 1, 2, 5, 30, 129 people armed anywhere will not “guarantee” that a lunatic bend on killing someone will not actually do it. But lets be realistic here. The goblin shoots and kills 2 people. Alarms go off in people’s minds, during that time, he shoots again, 2 more people go down, now firearms owners have recognized the sound of his weapon for what it is, and are drawing their own. Goblin fires again, but this time, someone is FIRING BACK. What does our goblin do!? He takes cover and tries to locate the source of the return fire. At this point, he is NOT aiming to kill, but busy locating… How am I doing so far? Even if this asshole is hellbent on getting shot, the surprise of having HIS timing disrupted is forcing him into a defensive stance. He might return fire in the general direction of the person doing the firing back, but he is NOT AIMING at leisure and killing at leisure. His moment of power is gone, taken away. He KNOWS now that his wanting to become famous is down the drain because whoever it is that is returning fire has become THE STAR of this show. Makes sense? Now, lets add one more armed citizen to the show. The goblin is crouching being a column, firing back at the first armed citizen. Shots are ringing out, bullets are whizzing and ricochetting, pandemonium has broken loose, everyone is either seeking cover or leaving the premises. Yes, some innocent bystander might still get hit, but at this point, the chance of it being from an AIMED shot directly at him/her is slight. Now the second citizen opens fire on the poor fuck, now just another faceless criminal, and is scoring hits. The goblin claim to fame disappeared when that (insert calibre here) slug entered his body, and he KNOWS this. Goblin dies, police shows up 2 minutes after, media circus starts.

    Lets recap. In this scenario, 5 people got shot. 4 from deliberate, aimed shots, one from a ricochet and is seriously injured. Goblin is assuming room (mall in this case) temperature and the world is a much better place for it. Yes, he shot 4 people, yes, nobody was able to stop him from firing in the first place, but our two armed citizens STOPPED him from killing at leisure and “becoming famous” at his call and leisure. 5 victims, not 9, 10, 18… Now, Mister Citizen No 1 and No 2 are heroes and have become “famous”. Their names and stories are on the newspapers everywhere. The goblin’s name is mentionned once, near the end of the articles, and no more thought is given the turd from this point on, at least not in the way the turd wanted. This last perspective is now being considered by the next would-be “I want to become famous” asshole and might, just might, prove to him that killing for that purpose is not desirable since his name would simply be buried in the articles about the brave citizens that did the “social readjusting”.

    How did I do..?

  64. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    HC,

    (Applause.)

  65. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    Very nice, hardclimber, Very Nice.

  66. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    But further, it’s a disagreeable proposition to you that anyone (or any number of people) carrying a firearm would be in a position to prevent someone from being killed.

    Okay, let me try it THIS way:

    It doesn’t matter whether one person or every person in that mall were armed — it isn’t going to stop a shooter from shooting up the place.

    Yes, you might be able to stop him before he kills someone, but the element of surprise is such that it is very likely he is going to get at least one or two, if not more.

    So because the bad guy managed to kill someone, we shouldnt even try? “whups he shot first, better roll over and beg for our lives.”.

    Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said you shouldn’t try. I never said that if you had a gun and a shot to take that you shouldn’t take it. I also never said that you shouldn’t carry your gun in a mall whether it is allowed or not. (and I explained the reason why a lot of properties prohibit weapons on the premises — as a disclaimer protecting them from liability. Call it plausible deniability)

    What I’ve seen here for a long time is the rant against NOT carrying weapons — the gist of which is that somehow those of us who do not choose to carry guns somehow deserve our “fate”. I only point out that we are ALL likely to have the same ‘fate’ whether we carry or we don’t.

    I don’t know about you, but -I- can count. The number of casualties if we allow the bad guy to have his way is going to be -much- higher than if he is forcibly stopped.

    If my Aunt had balls, she’d be my Uncle.

    Yes, it is possible you might kill him before he winds up killing himself. But the fact that YOU thought to carry your gun that day didn’t stop him from going in and creating havoc.

    The goblin’s name is mentioned once, near the end of the articles, and no more thought is given the turd from this point on, at least not in the way the turd wanted. This last perspective is now being considered by the next would-be “I want to become famous” asshole and might, just might, prove to him that killing for that purpose is not desirable since his name would simply be buried in the articles about the brave citizens that did the “social readjusting”.

    How did I do..?

    Pretty good, HardClimber. But you underestimate the media — they are going to gush and orgasm over this fucknozzle who dared to interrupt so many people’s daily lives to commit a heinous act.

    They are still going to delve into this “misunderstood” or “depressed” clown’s miserable life to try and get
    “some sort of understanding” as to why he did what he did. They will trot out his mother, his siblings, his friends and estranged girlfriend and all will tell how “disturbed” this guy has been from an early age.

    Meanwhile the heros might get an appearance on GMA, and then they will fade back into obscurity.

  67. Wild-Eyed Charlie Comment by Wild-Eyed Charlie

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    “Two outs, bottom of the ninth. Hardclimber steps up to the plate; takes a practice swing. Allyn winds up, throws…

    “HARDCLIMBER SWINGS! UP, UP, AND AWAYYYY! 568 FEET TO THE THIRD DECK, PEOPLE! THEY WON’T FIND THAT ONE ‘TIL THE SNOW MELTS!…”

    Seriously, whenever I hear of some idiot declaring a “Gun Free Zone,” I’m reminded of the line from the movie Animal House: “This requires, that a truly stupid and futile gesture, be done on somebody’s part!” Scum won’t pay attention to it; that’s silly and for chumps. Sheepdogs won’t pay attention to it; they’re long past admitting that they carry in public, practice proper concealment techniques, and will lie when asked by store personnel if they’re strapped (which I’ve never had happen, by the way). The sheeple won’t pay attention to it; they can’t conceive of needing a weapon.

    Proper concealment is neutral; it gives advantage only to those who know how to take advantage.

  68. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    DJ Allyn, ITW

    But the fact that YOU thought to carry your gun that day didn’t stop him from going in and creating havoc.

    My point exactly Sir. Since he was going to do it anyway, at least there is a chance that someone armed and able will “reduce” the number of victims of the carnage the goblin wanted to initiate. And keep in mind, these goblins deliberately CHOOSE a gun-free zone for their “minute of glory”. You wouldn’t see this happening in a police station or at a nearby range. These sickos NEED helpless victims to their “claim to fame”. Knowing that a particular mall or building contains decent but armed citizens, rest assured that they will NOT even think of attacking that target. A citizen who shoots back is denying him the power he so much crave. The power of life and death is their thrill here. If an armed citizen is able to steal that concept from the goblin’s mind by simply carrying a weapon, lives are saved by extension. Agreed, should a goblin decide to go ahead anyway and start a shooting rampage, no one can initially do anything about it. However, an armed citizen can certainly mitigate the damage and maybe, just maybe, stop many from becoming statistics.

    But, repeating myself, it seems to me that these murderous turds choose the gun-free zones BECAUSE they can kill many unopposed in their quest for “fame”. Even if the goblin decides to off himself after being engaged by armed citizens, the number of victims will probably be much lower than in a “walking targets” area…

  69. LC  MuscleDaddy Comment by LC MuscleDaddy

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    Never being one to shy from mixing it up with DJ…

    …but I’m not going to this time.

    His points are on luck, probabilities, on the effect (or lack of) that one’s decisions make on the world-at-large (Quantum Theory Be Damned - ‘Schrodinger’s who?).

    Read in total & in context none of his points are, in and of themselves, factually wrong.

    As such, I find reason to respond to only a single point:

    …being armed isn’t a guarantee that you aren’t going to get killed before you ever pull your weapon, and it is no guarantee that it would prevent these deaths that occurred.

    I don’t need a guarantee.

    But give me a chance, and see what I can do.

    How does that go?
    “Luck is when preparation meets opportunity.”

    Yeah, that was it.

    - MuscleDaddy

  70. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    And keep in mind, these goblins deliberately CHOOSE a gun-free zone for their “minute of glory”. You wouldn’t see this happening in a police station or at a nearby range.

    Wasn’t there a gunman recently shoot up a police station?

    I doubt they even consider whether a place is a “gun-free zone” when they choose to do something like this. Two years ago, an armed citizen confronted a gunman at the Tacoma Mall and although the he was seriously wounded, his intervention brought the shooting to a halt. Tacoma Mall was not a “Gun-Free Zone” at that time, but has since been forced by their insurance carrier to prohibit weapons. Now they have their own police precinct located inside of the mall — something a LOT of the big malls are doing now.

    Remember, these people go into these acts fully expecting to die. Why would it matter to them as to whether it were a “gun-free zone” or not? They are going where it is likely for them to get the most casualties.

  71. LC  MuscleDaddy Comment by LC MuscleDaddy

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    Why would it matter to them as to whether it were a “gun-free zone” or not? They are going where it is likely for them to get the most casualties.

    Um… logically, that would be someplace where the ‘fish in a barrel’ are least likely to double-tap you before get your quota.

    Same reason you hunt game-trails and water-sources ….. which would also stop if the woodland creatures started exercising their Right to Arm Bears.

    - MuscleDaddy

  72. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    but has since been forced by their insurance carrier to prohibit weapons. Now they have their own police precinct located inside of the mall — something a LOT of the big malls are doing now.

    I mentioned in another thread that my hometown does this, they call them substations. They’ve done this for a long time, but like having someone break into your house, are the cops right there, at the other end patrolling, or busy in their office filling out shop lifting forms?

    I’d rather increase the odds in my favor.

    And what actuary came up with the bottom line figure that the payoff would be less with the more people shot?

  73. Ian Comment by Ian

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    Bottom Line - Ban all guns = NO GUN CRIME!

  74. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    MuscleDaddy

    ‘fish in a barrel’

    puts me in mind of a story from my cousin who put in his “30″ on the local pd. a goblin walked into the dunkin doughnuts about 2am, pointed his gun at the clerk and told him to empty the register. the clerk grinned and ask the goblin to ‘very slowly look over your right shoulder’. when he saw the five officers with their guns drawn he did the smartest thing in his life, set the gun on the counter and spread eagle on the floor. my cousin often wondered how he had missed seeing the two cruisers he had parked between.

  75. Unregistered Comment by Sandflea

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    So similar a scenario, so different a result.
    Two people are shot dead and two others wounded outside a Colorado church. And it would have been more had not a second person also carried a gun, as was her right under the constitution:

    A gunman in a black trench coat and a high-powered rifle entered the church’s main foyer shortly after 1 p.m. and began shooting, Myers said.

    The church’s 11 a.m. service had recently ended, and hundreds of people were milling about when the gunman opened fire. Nearby were parents picking up their children from the nursery.

    Police arrived to find the gunman had been killed by a member of the church’s armed security staff, (Colorado Springs police chief Richard) Myers said.

    “There was a courageous staff member who probably saved many lives here today,” Myers said.

  76. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    DJ-

    Bluntly put, you lie, distort, omit, and creatively edit to make your point, or to prevent others from holding you to account.

    You cut and paste 4 or five peoples arguments together and repsond to it as if it were written by one author. While this may be by accident ( which I doubt ) it sows a great deal of confusion ( which I suspect is intetional ).

    I’ve reloaded this page and -watched- your older posts change, well outside the 15 minute edit margin. It must be nice to be able to remove those little ‘oopsies’ isnt it?

    I have yet to get a straight answer from you on anything I’ve posted here. Lost of obfuscation, ‘feelings’ and double talk.

    When, and -if- you can manage to speak straight, and actually ‘talk’ to me, let me know. In the mean time,

    save your time, and mine, and dont bother to respond to me.

    Dont worry, I’ll return the favor.

  77. sig94 Comment by sig94

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I was gonna leave this thread to die a lonely natural death but ran across this comment about having ready access to weapons at Pattericio’s Pontifications from a former county cop:

    […] You do not seem to realise how fast an incident like this happens. My whole career I carried a handgun in a holster, it’s sole purpose was to solve an unexpected problem. Because if I expected trouble I grabbed the shotgun or, sometimes, the little lever action carbine I carried in the trunk of the county cruiser.
    A handgun is the worst possible weapon, the only reason we have them is because they are there. The long gun, well it has to be fetched from someplace. The only reason I ever carried a handgun is because I could never get the 1st Armored Division to fit in a holster.

    Yeah, I felt that way sometimes, but a handgun is better than no gun. If only someone could figure out a way to launch a cluster bomb cruise missle out your ass he’d make a fortune.

    BTW, the Colorado shooter is a 24 year old kid named Matthew Murray. He did both shootings. It appears that he had a beef with the mission and that he hated Christians.

  78. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    sig
    Exceeeellant!!

    A handgun is the worst possible weapon, the only reason we have them is because they are there.

    Limited range, limited accuracy, but I wouldn’t want to be carrying a chaingun around all the time…well I would, but like he says, it’s not practical.

    If only someone could figure out a way to launch a cluster bomb cruise missle out your ass he’d make a fortune.

    I’m sure that someone here has a chili recipe that could achieve the same effect that when shot at, unarmed, as you turn to duck and your bowels realize you may be shot could accomplish the job.

    Problem is, you would have to eat that chili everyday (which would most likely kill you) and there would be no control over the collateral damage. :em99:

  79. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    This was posted at 4:24..why it took so long to show up is beyond me.

    Bottom Line - Ban all guns = NO GUN CRIME!

    Except the persons who have guns and choose to commit a crime. Damn, how naive can someone get, and how do they filter through here on a regular basis. If a tree fell in the woods and…. aahhh :em98:

    I’ve owned a gun since I was 21 and have never thought of committing a crime. The mere possession of a weapon did not change my thinking towards how powerful I am and how I can now make people bend to my will. It actually went the opposite. I became more aware of the responsibility and obligation to my neighbors and the people I was around.

  80. Torg Comment by Torg

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    No guns, no crime huh. It is culture that causes crime. I visiting Cambodia, they have went from being one of the most armed nations on Earth to almost completly disarmed. Every peasant farmer had a gun in the bad days when the Khmer Rouge was coming into power. In fact, that was how those monsters took power. Now the country is practicly disarmed. They offered a buyback of all working guns at $10.00 a piece. In Cambodia that is like winning the lotter. Lots of petty theft and DUI’s, not much else in the way of crime. They did pass what I consider to be a common sense law, no foreigners can have a gun. Can we pass that law in the U.S.?

  81. Comment by "Lady H" aka Dori

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Bottom Line - Ban all guns = NO GUN CRIME!

    Ian, we tried that with alcohol in 1920.

    I don’t think it worked all that well either.

  82. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    No guns, no gun crime? :em01: Sure, the two guys raping my sister didn’t use a gun you fuckhead. A damn shame she couldn’t. Or some dude near here getting his head caved in with a shovel…..again, no means of self defense. No guns, no gun crime…..I got a question for you………what about guns being used in self-defense or to prevent other crimes, including gun crimes? Or is the victim roster too short for your tastes? I’ll be damned if I’m gonna’ be used as a template for a chalk line to assuage your sensibilities. Tell it to my two .45’s, a twelve guage and a rifle. And as for banning them, I discovered that a half inch ball bearing ejected from a wrist rocket will go through the windshield of a car. Your head harder than that? I reserve speculation on that point.

  83. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Uh, guys and gals, I believe Ian had his tongue firmly planted in his cheek when he posted:

    Bottom Line - Ban all guns = NO GUN CRIME!

    :em03:

  84. Mike M Comment by Mike M

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Comment by Ian

    Bottom Line - Ban all guns = NO GUN CRIME!

    Is it almost April already?

  85. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I dunno’ Mike……..haven’t filed taxes yet. If tongue in cheek BC, than I apologize to Ian. I have a short fuse for second amendment issues.

  86. Mike M Comment by Mike M

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I dunno’ Mike……..haven’t filed taxes yet.

    Whoa…. Caveman, I sure as heck didn’t mean to bring to mind that grim reality. I was talking about Ian Schwantz (or whatever his name was) who showed up with “Mishawatch” last April Fools Day. Looks like he’s back.

  87. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Ian? Yes, the synapses are arcing…didn’t that cause some small difficulties for all concerned?

  88. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Oh gawd…….maybe BC and Jackboot will heist all his good hooch, teach him a lesson. :em01: I remember now. You know what though, this fool was taken to the cleaners, stomped all over his collective pecker as the Boss yanked him in, hook, line and sinker.

  89. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Folks, appears Ian did not read all the posts correctly. Wishful thinking got ALL of the victims killed. In a dreamworld, banning all guns MIGHT work, in reality, it didn’t, isn’t, will not be working.
    Those sickos love people like you Ian, nothing like shooting a defenceless SHEEP! I know, it takes a lot to face reality and admit that this is not a perfect world.

    Brains anyone..?

  90. chuck Comment by chuck

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    HC
    Read this post for the background on Ian. Just a Few Words…
    That will explain Caveman’s last post and give you an idea of all the fun you missed about nine months ago.

  91. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    chuck

    Thanks, helped a lot! :em99:

    You’re right! Why, why, why, why do I always miss the fun around here?!?!? OK, now I’ll be paying close attention, you ain’t seen nothing yet! :em93:

    Actually, I am having a good time here on the Rott. Couldn’t imagine myself NOT doing it now! The first I do when I get to work is… (drumroll please) bring up the Rott! Oh, you knew that already…

  92. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Gah!

    That Ian. :em98:

  93. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I’ve reloaded this page and -watched- your older posts change, well outside the 15 minute edit margin. It must be nice to be able to remove those little ‘oopsies’ isnt it?

    What, did you want a longer period in order to edit YOUR comments? Just say the word and I will make it so. (but make your request before tomorrow morning)

    Sure, sometimes I have gone back and corrected something. Sometimes I will post a comment, then realize that I needed to add or modify something and go to the Wordpress edit window. Then I may get called away before I actually finish the edit. It might be an hour or two before I return, to complete the edit.

    I do have a life outside of this site you know. Things aren’t always as nefarious as you make them out to be. But throwing around the “Liar” tag is kind of childish, don’t you think?

    As far as commenting on multiple comments, I can’t help it if you get confused easily. I figure that if I blockquote a particular comment THAT person could easily identify the fact that I am responding to THEM.

    I had considered creating “Nested Comments” here but figured that with the number of people commenting it would create too many levels to be readable.

    Besides, nested comments are hard to read in a thread.

    I’ll tell you what — I won’t be here for a while — I have something that has to be done and I don’t know how long it is going to take before I am able to return. It could be a few days, it could be ….

    Try to control your excitement.

  94. jaybear Comment by jaybear

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I’ll tell you what — I won’t be here for a while — I have something that has to be done and I don’t know how long it is going to take before I am able to return. It could be a few days, it could be ….

    hope all is well Deej