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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » Great Moments in SWAT Team Fuckuppery
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Will somebody, for the Love of G-D outfit those moronic goons with a GPS or, failing that, perhaps sticking handles on their helmets might help? (Link via LC & IB Bill Quick):

A Minneapolis police SWAT team kicked in the wrong door yesterday during an early morning raid,

AGAIN? Will we ever see a week pass by without a bunch of cluelessly lost ninja-clad chimpanzees kicking in the wrong door? Is there something in their genetic makeup, perhaps one of their three Y chromosomes, that makes it impossible for those police state fuckups to accomplish a simple task that thousands of pizza delivery drivers carry out without a hitch day and night in all kinds of weather?

Really. I seriously want to know. What the fuck IS it with those dense knobs?

prompting the man of the house to grab his gun and open fire on the officers who entered the house.

Good for him. Or not, as the case might turn out to be:

Police haven’t decided whether they’ll try to charge Khang with a crime. KMSP-TV says the Khang family is consulting with a civil attorney.

Charge him with what, pray tell? Protecting his wife and six kids, none of whom were hurt, thank G-d, against unknown intruders kicking in his door in the middle of the fucking night? The only one with legitimate grounds for a lawsuit here is Mr. Khang, who ought to sue the fucking city until they have to declare bankruptcy and start peddling miniature screwdrivers on street corners for a living.

Of course that’s never going to happen. The gummint can do whatever the fuck they please to us peons and they will never, EVER have to face the music for it.

KARE-TV reports that Vang was detained at the scene and released a few hours later. Police say there may have been a “language barrier” between the residents and the officers.

Oh sure. Blame the fucking victim, why don’t you, you flatfooted gumshoe piece of pig shit? The only “barrier” here is the one stuck permanently between the sensory input apparatus of your fuckheaded stormtroopers and whatever it is that resides between their ears in lieu of an actual brain. If that barrier hadn’t been there, then perhaps they’d have been able to read a fucking map.

“It was some bad information that was received on the front end that kind-of trickled all the way through,” police Sgt. Jesse Garcia tells the station. “It’s unfortunate because we have officers that were hit by gunfire

Pardon me if I don’t rush out to get the Kleenexes just yet, officer cocknozzle. Kick in somebody’s door in the middle of the night and whatever the fuck happens to you is your own damn fault, says I.

and this truly, truly could have been a much worse situation.”

You’re damn straight it could have. Your SS goons could’ve managed to hurt Mr. Khang or his family in the shootout that ensued once your marmosets found themselves under fire.

Fortunately, their marksmanship is as deplorably fucking pathetic as their ability to perform simple tasks such as getting to the right address.

Thatisall.

97 Responses to “Great Moments in SWAT Team Fuckuppery”
  1. LC MoMinuteMan Comment by LC MoMinuteMan

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    If The Ol’ Lady can navigate my 18-wheeler from Cali to a NYFC Jewish deli supply warehouse with a simple Rand-McNally atlas, why can’t these dickheads find their way across town and avoid shooting the wrong people??

    Why is it that sheeple have no problem with The Man having full auto playthings (that are collecting dust 99.75% of the time and are completely un-needed 0.23% the rest of the time), when Joe Lawabiding Citizen spends more time at the range in a month than the average Badge does in a couple of years???

    Ever notice how many shooting stories mention dozens, if not hundreds of shots fired and only a tiny handful are on target?? Remember not too long ago, a bunch of cops opened up on a dude in a white SUV?? I don’t think they hit the driver, but a couple of the cops were shot. Seeing as how they were lined up on both sides of the rig SHOOTING IN EACH OTHER’S DIRECTION, my money’s on Friendly Fire.

    Give the macho assholes percussion rifles and pistols and watch accuracy rates improve and reports of “OOPS!! Wrong house, our bad…. Sorry ’bout your husband..” decline.

    And WTF use does the average police force ACTUALLY have for a SWAT Team?? Other that to supply a bunch of psuedo-macho uber-wankers with a beer/doughnut gut that couldn’t cut it in The Military with a place to play Soldier??

    Remember the (I think it was) shooting at the San Ysidero Mickey D’s?? How many people died because when SWAT was called out, they had to go put on their Ninja Soldier suits before they could respond?? Gotta look cool while running around on camera drawing chalk lines…

  2. Dick Comment by Dick

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    Did they even make it to the correct zip code?

  3. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Gawd, sure makes me glad I know all the local cops here. But it would be lawsuit city if they so much as kicked my cat, much less shot my wife, or my daughter…or me.

  4. Leslie Bates Comment by Leslie Bates

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    Did they even make it to the correct zip code?

    Good question.

    There are several zip code zones between 55417 in South Minneapolis and 55418 in Northeast Minneapolis.

  5. Comment by "Lady H" aka Dori

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    They try to charge this man, I’ll make the damn time to tell that city government what I think of them.

    And don’t blame the SWAT team. Blame their superiors or whoever told them this was the right house. Many men and women, with families of their own, put their lives on the line like that a lot to save innocent lives, one of which may be yours or mine one day. Especially in hostage situations. Just sayin’, Sire.

    Of course, aren’t they supposed to say first, “Open up! Police!” and give the occupants a chance to surrender? Or am I just blissfully ignorant?

  6. Wild-Eyed Charlie Comment by Wild-Eyed Charlie

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    “Police Officers” like these make me ashamed of what I’ve done for the greater portion of my adult life. When I retire, I will never even admit what I’ve retired from. And in the business I plan to start, there will be NO “police discounts.”

    John Ross got it right in Unintended Consequences. It was written during the Klintong Reign Of Terror, but unfortunately it’s still relevant.

  7. Mike M Comment by Mike M

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    And don’t blame the SWAT team. Blame their superiors or whoever told them this was the right house.

    You’re absolutely right. Chances are it was probably some lazy detective who put together the search warrant affidavit and SWAT’s only role was to execute it.

    Of course, aren’t they supposed to say first, “Open up! Police!”

    Right again. They’re supposed to announce, “Police! Search Warrant!” repeatedly and loud enough to wake the dead when they’re going into a place, especially after midnight. It’s done for everybody’s protection and you hope everyone understands English.

    A Minneapolis police SWAT team kicked in the wrong door yesterday during an early morning raid

    I’m not trying to apologize for anybody, because this turned out very wrong, but the house they entered was the one specified in the search warrant. What was “wrong” and where they fucked up is that it looks like they relied solely on what the informant told them and pointed out to them. What they needed to do was to independently corroborate that information through surveillance and checking data base entries, utility records, etc. to establish that the armed gang members they were seeking had some association with that particular dwelling. Even though this informant had previously provided them with good information for other search warrants that resulted in arrests and illegal weapons seizures, they still should have confirmed what he/she told them before they applied for this one. That’s basic procedure and failing to follow it is what caused this.

  8. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Of course, aren’t they supposed to say first, “Open up! Police!” and give the occupants a chance to surrender? Or am I just blissfully ignorant?

    Not if it’s a “no-knock” warrant which, I assume (but you never can be sure with those fuckheads) it was in this case. Which makes me wonder: How’d they manage to get a warrant for the wrong address? Sorry, Milady, but I’m afraid that this was a perfect example of what we see on a regular basis in the news: A complete inability to read the address on the warrant, read a map or both.

    If it only happened once in a million years, it would be different, but it happens all the fucking time with those fools. One thing I CAN say for sure about “no-knocks”: If anybody’s going to convince me to even entertain the notion of their usefulness (and yes, I CAN see cases in which they’re useful, although not near as many as seem to be issued), then they’d DAMN WELL BETTER MAKE DOUBLY DAMN SURE THAT THEY’RE KICKING IN THE RIGHT FUCKING DOOR. Then check it again, just to make TRIPLY sure.

    Not too much to ask for, methinks. After all, that could be MY door one day and yes, I will open fire and keep firing until I’m dead or nothing moves, one of the two.

    “Police Officers” like these make me ashamed of what I’ve done for the greater portion of my adult life.

    No need to be, my friend. I’m a big fan of you and your colleagues, because most, the VAST majority of you do a job that you get paid far too little for, a job that needs to be done and that I’m grateful that somebody will do.

    Those Ninja Cop SWAT Shitbirds, on the other hand, can go unceremoniously fuck themselves. At least until such time as they start meeting at least the most BASIC standards in their hiring, qualifying and policy & procedures. I am getting sick and fucking tired of reading about those Burger King dropouts in uniform making up for their obvious personality deficiencies by playing Waffen-SS on my dime.

  9. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    The story mentions that some of the officers were hit. I wonder if Khang is a shooter, and only hit center of mass. That would the best scenario (assuming the officers were wearing kevlar). But what a tragic situation. Imagine if one of the family members were hit…or killed.

  10. Mike M Comment by Mike M

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    Here are some more details.

    Minneapolis police apologize for errant raid that led to gunfire

  11. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    Sorry, Lady H.

    If you are on a SWAT team, you deserve, at the very least, scorn. SWAT units are a fraud perpetrated against the taxpayer.

    And frankly, from what I have seen ( admittedly limited. ) SWAT units draw all of the worst aspects of Law Enforcement into one place.

    Our current tactics in the war on ( some ) drugs are -not working-. turning up the pressure buy give the cops more guns and less oversight is -not- going to fix the problem.

    What it will do is create a whole new set of problems.

    When I was a kid, police officers where someone you trusted. Someone who could help you.

    Now that I’m older, something has changed. LEOs no longer have -trust-. This is a sad and regrettable thing. When I see a cop on the road, I dont feel relaxed, I feel worried. What piece of legal banditry, excuse me, -revenue raising- is he going to perpitrate on me now?

    Police have gone from being trusted, respected members of the community, to being bandits at best, and murderers at worst.

    Something has gone horribly, horribly, wrong.

  12. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Of course, aren’t they supposed to say first, “Open up! Police!” and give the occupants a chance to surrender? Or am I just blissfully ignorant?

    If they practice “Knock and Announce”, there is normally a two second interval between the announcement and the door coming open, LH.

    Remind me to tell ya all about a client’s run in with the local sherriffs one time.

  13. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    We don’t do or sell drugs. We aren’t arms dealers. We’re not gang members, and we pay our damn taxes. I can’t think of a damn thing that the SWAT Team needs to come busting our door down in the middle of the night for. If I hear our front or back door get kicked in while we’re asleep…..those coming in better be prepared to catch plenty of .9mm (until I get my Kimber out of layaway) and .45acp Hydrashoks coming at them fast and furiously. If we’re not lawbreakers in any way, then we should expect the Law Enforcement Officers to stay the hell away from our door in the middle of the night. :em96:

    If I can find my way around freaking ass Atlanta by myself….then these numbnuts should be able to find the right address and verify, verify, verify!!!! that they are busting into the right house for the right reasons.

  14. Unregistered Comment by Age of Rifles

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    No offense meant toward the poster, but claiming that cops are bandits and murderers is going way too far. Certainly this case is an egregious example of misconduct somewhere in the chain of command or the operational sequence; however, there are cops everywhere who unselfishly do their jobs with honor and respect on a daily basis.

  15. hitnrun Comment by hitnrun

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    If they practice “Knock and Announce”, there is normally a two second interval between the announcement and the door coming open, LH.

    Of course, as part of the War on Drugs and Civil Rights, the responsibilities of the police officer in any given situation are constantly being redefined downward. If the warrant didn’t specify no-knock, no-responsibility, open-ended search and seizure of all persons, it’s probably just because the cops forgot to ask for those privileges. It certainly isn’t because a judge rejected them.

    The frequency of these episodes suggest that SWAT teams and their directors just aren’t being taught the severity of the issues at stake.

  16. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    what to do, what to do? politely knock and stand on the front porch waiting while the goblins flush the drugs or set up a .50 cal. in the living room, or bust in hopeing to take them unawares? i don’t like the no-knock warrents for constitutional reasons and if you act like it’s a war zone there will be colateral damage. plus i get my ass in the air when people start yelling for (my opinion) no good reason. i have given the digital salute to cops i disagreed with and even got away with it a couple of times. don’t mistake me though, i have known a lot more good ones than bad. for the most part they are doing their best in a bad situation.

    on the lighter side; You might be a redneck if. someone has called the police saying your mother has threatened to shoot them and the police tell them ‘to get out of there right now because she WILL shoot’. my mother was sitting on her front porch one morning while her dog was doing his business. an animal control officer stopped, got out of his truck, walked to the curb and started whistling and snapping his fingers trying to get the dog to step out of the yard. my mother called out to him and said “If you touch my dog or step onto my property it will be the last thing you do”. when he said “It’s against the law for the dog to be loose” my mother pulled her gun out and repeated her statement of intent. when he called the police my cousin was working the desk that day and answered the phone. we found out about my cousins side of the conversation when he came over that evening. he also told us how everyone in the station got a big laugh out of it because no-one there liked that animal control officer anyway. i reckon i are that redneck. :em93:

  17. chuck Comment by chuck

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Of course, aren’t they supposed to say first, “Open up! Police!” and give the occupants a chance to surrender? Or am I just blissfully ignorant?

    And the problem there is bad guys are starting to do just that. You have no way of knowing who just kicked in your door, whether they identify themselves or not.

  18. Sir Christopher Comment by Sir Christopher

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    another good reason to LEARN FUCKING ENGLISH when you come here. notwithstanding anything else that’s been said.

  19. Sir Christopher Comment by Sir Christopher

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    Stabbed in the Heart, and You’re TO Blame, you give illegal immigration… a bad name (Bad name)

    sounds like the Chupacabra

  20. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    No offense meant toward the poster, but claiming that cops are bandits and murderers is going way too far.

    I don’t think anyone is claiming such a thing. There’s not Rott here that doesn’t have the utmost respect for LEO’s and wouldn’t hesitate to pull their own firearm to help back up or defend any cop in trouble. It’s the Cranial/Rectal challenged management and bean counters that cause way too layers of asshattery to cause incidents such as this to happen way too often. Then they try to put the blame on the poor innocent homeowner who was just doing what ANY homeowner would do when armed idiots come busting down their doors in the middle of the night. You would think that the guys on the sharp end of the stick would have already learned to verify multiple times before rushing the castle.

  21. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Age of Rifles.

    No offense meant toward the poster, but claiming that cops are bandits and murderers is going way too far. Certainly this case is an egregious example of misconduct somewhere in the chain of command or the operational sequence; however, there are cops everywhere who unselfishly do their jobs with honor and respect on a daily basis.

    If a man with a pistol and a pretty piece of tin goes around taking money from you as his -job- what does that make him?

    if a -group- of men with pretty pieces of tin bust down a man’s door and shoot him dead for playing cards, or some other -legal- pursuit, what does that make them? ‘oops’ is not acceptable. John Q. Public cant do that, why should Police be held to a much lower, if not non-existant standard?

    While I would very much -like- Andy Griffith and Barny Fife ( he might have been a goober, but he was a honest, -stand up- goober. I respect that ) to be patrolling my county, it is no longer so. and yes I am aware that such a time never existed etc,etc. It’s -my- dream, and I’ll wish for whatever I like.

    You dont have to answer the next question, but when you see a cop car behind you, does it make you feel safer? I bet not.

    When you see a police officer on your doorstep, would you invite him in for a cup of coffee? Perhaps, but only after thinking whether or not there was anything you might get arrested for in your house.

    while I think the -idea- of LEOs is good, the -practice- has become seriously distorted.

  22. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    Nothing new here, citizen…

    Move along.

  23. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    as an addendum to my previous comment.

    After said men with pretty pieces of tin and guns have made an ‘oopsie’, how many times to they try to bury it in the sand?

  24. Unregistered Comment by red_sleeves

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    The concept of SWAT; another gift from California.

    Daryl Gates, the guy credited with starting the LAPD’s SWAT, and the Police Chief at the time said, in regards to choke holds, that blacks might be more likely to die from choke holds because their arteries do not open as fast as they do on ”normal people.” hahahaha!

  25. Unregistered Comment by PFC Krondax

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    They are from minnesotay.. then again, im from wisconsin, so hey, what can i say about their intelligence… other than non existant.. simply said* keep in mind that i am still thinking about joining a police force and maybe swat team)( that these men deserved to be fired upon. as woudl I if i happened to kick in the wrong door

    then again, had i been there, i might have asked said man if he wanted to use a fully automatic assault rifle on the right home, as well as offered ocmpensatin

  26. Meinhornid Comment by Meinhornid

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    What the hell is wrong with western society nowadays? We have turned the police into the military and the military into the police. This makes no sense to me.

  27. Unregistered Comment by rauschbo

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    Lemme see, ninja-clad, overly-armed men of room-temperature-IQ-at-best kick in the wrong door door and get into a firefight (and apparently didn’t hit shit - I wonder how many rounds were expended?) - you sure they weren’t just trying out for F-Troop jobs? Oh, wait, an apology was given, they didn’t murder anyone, didn’t steal any guns or other property, and didn’t even put all of the survivors in jail for the fuck-up that THEY perpetrated on innocent civilians - guess they’ll NEVER be qualified to be part of the jack-booted thugs from the ATFE…..

    ….I mean all of that in a GOOD WAY, of course……

  28. LC Draco Comment by LC Draco

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    What the hell is wrong with western society nowadays? We have turned the police into the military and the military into the police. This makes no sense to me.

    Nor me, but it’s basis (I think) may be found in the social experimentation of both institutions. :em98:

  29. Unregistered Pingback by Police competance on parade

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    […] SWAT team kicked in the door at the wrong address in the middle of the night and now may press charges because the homeowner assumed they were burglars and shot at them. […]

  30. LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R. Comment by LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R.

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    Wow! A Rottie all the way from Iceland. Are you new or returning? Either way, welcome, or welcome back!

  31. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    Meinhornid

    Glad to have you join in!!! Welcome!

    And best wishes from Canada.

  32. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    I don’t understand all the fuss. They managed to put themselves on the map, didn’t they?

    Meinhornid

    Welcome!

  33. LC Shamalama Comment by LC Shamalama

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    So this guy is resting comfortably in his home one morning when, all of a sudden, 30 guys in black come storming into his home and waving guns. And he gets his shotgun to defend his family and himself.

    With no warning and with no preparation he fires twice in the chaos, hitting two of them, with his shotgun. The well-trained SWAT team, all 30 of them, fire 30 rounds out of their assault weapons (some probably automatic sub-machine guns) and hit nothing. What’s wrong with this picture, huh?

    x

  34. AyUaxe Comment by AyUaxe

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    SWAT is an abomination–as said above, it turns the police into the military and the military into the police. Worse, it immasculates regular police. The average patrolman, who’s naturally first on a scene, is allowed only the most minimal firepower, ’cause the leftists are worried about the average LEO offending some scum-bucket’s civil rights. (thanks Cali and NY). So they don’t get full weapons and tactics training and have neither the equipment or skills to respond to anything beyond a purse snatching or DUI. While some sicko knocks off victim after victim at a mall, school, restaurant or other gun-free-fire zone, everyone but the perp waits for SWAT to gear up, mobe, deploy, negotiate, re-deploy, and storm the place to find everyone dead. Fuckwits, indeed.

  35. Comment by "Lady H" aka Dori

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    Because there are bad guys, we the law abiding citizenry have to be treated like bad guys too?

    What is scary about this is that you can rent a house with a previous history of dubious criminal activities. Ever look at public records and how 1 person can have 15 different addresses in 2 years?

    So I can look forward to a knock in in the middle of the night because the previous owners had a drug dealer son selling from their house 1 year previously.

    Eye opener..why the SWAT team tactics? If LEOs can read Miranda rights to serial killers and rapists and have to show warrants to search their homes, why is this needed? Ever?

  36. Unregistered Comment by Archon

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    A lot of you people need to adjust your tin-foil hats. Circulation to your brain is obviously getting cut off.

    Let me start by saying that I am not now, nor have I ever been, a law enforcement officer. However, in my line of work, I have had the chance to work with dozens of agencies, both at home and abroad. Most of the time, that work is with an agencies “tactical” team (be it SWAT, SRT, SEB, or any of the other countless acronyms). SWAT teams are NOT jackbooted thugs, who sit around in a team room all day waiting for a call out, who get off on kicking in Joe Citizen’s door. Most SWAT teams in this coutnry are not “full time” SWAT teams. In other words, unless there is a call out, these officers act as regular patrol officers. They carry their ninja shit in the trunk of their vehicle, ready in case they do get a call out.

    For the minority of municipalities that DO have a full time team, believe me, these guys (and sometimes gals) are some of the hardest working, best trained officers in the country. These are people who are willing to go through a door, into a home full of decidedly Bad Dudes, and NOT shoot first (which goes against every instinct and bit of training I’ve had). The level of training, competence, and self discipline displayed by these officers is something you should be in awe of.

    It’s been said, but a lot of you seem to have glossed over this tiny fact: The SWAT team did not, repeat NOT hit the wrong house. They hit the house that was specified by the warrant they were serving. The failue came on the part of the detective who submitted the warrant for a judge’s signature. SWAT officers, whether full time or part time, do not have the time to vet the information given to them in a warrant. They have to trust that their fellow officers, who are supposed to do the leg work on that warrant, actually went out and did some DETECTING. That’s what detectives are supposed to do, after all. The blame lays on the detective who initially sent the information up the CoC for a warrant, and with the CoC itself for not double checking before it handed the warrant to a judge to be signed off. If the SWAT team is guilty of anything, it is of having poor training (honestly, 30 shots, and not a single hit?)

    For those of you who have jumped on the pile, who think these officers are “playing Waffen SS”, “couldn’t make it in the real military”, or that they are “Burger King drop outs” (that’s right Emperor, I’m looking at you too)…unless you have actually served ON a SWAT team, you need to back away from the keyboard. Most times, SWAT team members are either retired military, or are in the Reserves. These officers don’t just get hired on to an agency as a SWAT officer. They have to serve, often time for years, as a regular Joe patrol officer before they even get to TRY OUT for a SWAT team. And the try outs, indoc, and training are no laughing matter. They do not have jackbooted dreams of dominance over Joe Citizen. They are regular citizens, JUST LIKE YOU. They have a job to do, and they do it well (and I dare say better than most, if not all, of the posters here). So unless you’ve actually rolled through a door or served a high risk warrant, you don’t have a leg to stand on. If you think you can do better, go apply at your local police department. I’m sure they would be more than willing to accept a high speed, low drag stud such as yourself.

  37. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    Return fire in 5, 4, 3, 2, …

  38. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    OT here, but did anyone get news from Deej ? I’m starting to worry here…

  39. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    Archon puhlease. take a deep breath and chill. since we have all installed faraday cages in our homes we no longer need fear the C.I.A’s tm Thought Control Rays pat.pend. and only wear the tin-foil hats because they’re so stylish and simply go with anything. really. :em93:

  40. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    hilljohnny

    and only wear the tin-foil hats because they’re so stylish and simply go with anything. really

    I’ve added a couple of these little toothpicks with the colored paper on one end on top of mine, while the Missus sports a stunning tiara she picked up at WalMart. Looks some mighty sharp when I wear my black business suit and take out the Missus to some fancy restaurant. Takes a while to get served though… Must be the dashingly handsome couple effect that causes the staff to feel unworthy of approaching our table… :em01:

    And I never wear mine in the shower, instead I’ve lined the shower curtain with lead… :em99:

  41. AyUaxe Comment by AyUaxe

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    hilljohnny, how do you know what the interior of my house looks like–the faraday cages were supposed to be secret–who sent you, who are you working for? Thanks for the reality check Archon–no doubt SWAT guys are, for the most part, kinda cream of the Po Po crop. What they do is tough and they deserve credit for doing it well. The criticism is more for how, administratively and operationally, the development of SWAT has effected the cop on the beat and how SWAT interacts, as a unit with citizens. Even fine individuals can get off the beam when a hard-charging group dynamic goes off the rails. Yeah, the real fault here probably lies with detectives and DAs who didn’t get their facts and surveillance straight for the warrant. Sadly, they will probably be immune from suit. There’s something called a Bivens action that sometimes gives abused citizens some relief, but it requires some pretty egregious, unjustified conduct, like knowing you’re in the wrong place and going ahead and knocking down the door anyway. Well, guess that extra heavy duty tin foil is going to come in handy after all.

  42. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    AyUaxe

    Well, guess that extra heavy duty tin foil is going to come in handy after all.

    Don’t forget the toothpicks…

  43. Meinhornid Comment by Meinhornid

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    Thanks, I’ve been a reader for a while but only registered just now.
    Btw, I find that adding a propeller to the tin-foil hat will scatter the mind reading rays even better! ;)

  44. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    Meinhornid

    You’re a genius Sir, no other way to describe this! A propeller, makes sense… Of course, you’d be using a titanium blade with a lead shaft reinforced with tungsten.

    Faraday and Tesla would be proud of you. :em99:

  45. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    Hardclimber

    Takes a while to get served though… Must be the dashingly handsome couple effect that causes the staff to feel unworthy of approaching our table…

    Why ofcourse. that must be the reason. couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the size of the tip you left last time. :em01:

    Meinhornid brilliant, absolutely brilliant, is it left or right hand spin? do we need auto-feathering to handle over-rev stituations? is titanium necessary? i would think ferrite-cored steel would induce a better counter-emf field. how many rpm are we talking here a lead shaft is self lubricating but a magnetic bearing system would handle higher speeds without overheating. detail is critical sir. :em01: :em93:

  46. Unregistered Comment by Archon

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    The criticism is more for how, administratively and operationally, the development of SWAT has effected the cop on the beat and how SWAT interacts, as a unit with citizens

    Without a doubt, the current “trend” of every department wanting their own “tactical” team has had an effect on your regular beat cop. Most times, the department does not have the equipment, manpower, training facilities, or training funds to keep such a team up to the standard they should be at. DHS offers grants for departments, but these grants can ONLY be used to buy equipment, not training (yet another blunder from the uber-fuckup that is the DHS). Unfortunately, this can be attributed directly to the eleventy billion layers of administrative and bureaucratic peons that come between the money and the shooters. Most don’t realize that you can not just go out and buy cool guy gear, and suddenly have a SWAT team. Beyond that, most departments, especially in your smaller municipalities, don’t even NEED a tactical team. The money would be better spent on effective training, but no one ever seems to grasp that fact at the higher levels.

    In a perfect world, a SWAT team’s only interaction, as a unit, with citizens would be in the completion of their duties. however, this world is far from perfect, and that is not the case, as evidenced above. Because of that, officers assigned to SWAT teams spend as much time in EEO classes and sensitivity training, as they do training to shoot booger eaters in the face.

    Sadly, they will probably be immune from suit.

    And that is the biggest crime to come out of this whole story. I am a person who preaches personal responsibility. I know that we, as humans, are imperfect, fallible beings. But when you fuck up, own up to it. I’ve spent a lifetime and a career dealing with mealy mouthed pencil dicks who were masters at the age old game of “Pass the Buck”. It sickitates me, and makes baby Jesus cry.

  47. Kristopher, LC Comment by Kristopher, LC

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    Sorry, Archon, but the entire concept of SWAT was a bad idea from the beginning. If you teach your officers properly, and have proper equipment sitting in the trunk of the patrol car, you do not have any need for SWAT.

    Oh, and BTW, Misha did serve in the military … just not the US military ( and this brings up another pet peave of mine … any cop who even uses the term “civilian” without having a DD-214 in his job history needs to be drafted instantly, and sent to Iraq or Afghanistan for a couple of years ).

  48. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    Archon, None of this changes the fact that police officers are being used to collect revenue. Not ‘enforce the law’, not ‘protect the public’, but ‘collect revenue’. While it may be -legalized- theft, it’s still theft.

    Nor does this change that fact that SWAT teams are overused.

    And the lack of accountability is amazing. A SWAT officer can screw up seven ways to sunday, and walk away with a clean skin.
    Every time. “It’s not the officer’s fault, -someone- else screwed up.” Bullshit. Your weapon, your finger, your bullet, your -fault-. Live with it, or get out of the business. If we, as civilians have to worry about it, so should LEOs

  49. Unregistered Comment by Archon

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    First couple of responses will be directed towards Kristopher:

    Sorry, Archon, but the entire concept of SWAT was a bad idea from the beginning. If you teach your officers properly, and have proper equipment sitting in the trunk of the patrol car, you do not have any need for SWAT.

    I’m going to have disagree with you on a fundamental basis on this one. SWAT teams were a modern police department’s response to criminals who were consistently outgunning and outshooting regular beat cops. A few officers I’ve worked and had beers with have said “SWAT isn’t a job, it’s a mentality.” I couldn’t agree more. And because being a SWAT officer requires a certain mentality, I do not agree with “part time” SWAT teams. It is hard enough, in this day and age, to be a regular (and by regular, I mean outstanding) beat cop. By asking an officer to perform regular beat duties, and still be available for call outs, is trying to cram two officers into one. The bean counters win again. Full time SWAT teams, with the right mentality, equipment, and training, rarely have cases of misconduct when utilized properly by the department. This happens in departments that A) have the funding, and B) have the need.

    Oh, and BTW, Misha did serve in the military … just not the US military

    I never implied that he didn’t. I am well aware of Misha’s service. At no point did I say, however, that “Unless you’ve served in the military, you should back away from the keyboard.” I said “Unless you’ve actually rolled through a door or served a high risk warrant, you don’t have a leg to stand on.” I have a very good friend who is still in the Army. I refer to him as my tech guru because that is what he does. Any technical, computer, or communication questions, I ask him. But he does not offer in depth tactical analysis of any particular unit’s door kick to me. It’s called staying in your lane. I don’t throw handsets at him while he works, and he doesn’t throw bangers at me when I work.

    Roguetek:

    Archon, None of this changes the fact that police officers are being used to collect revenue. Not ‘enforce the law’, not ‘protect the public’, but ‘collect revenue’.

    Two problems with this statement: First of all, the SWAT team was not acting to collect a fine. They were serving a warrant. Big difference. Second, when was the last time you paid a fine to a police officer? Officers do NOT collect revenue for the city. When an officer pulls you over for speeding, it is not because he is trying to collect money for the city. It is because you are speeding above the posted safe limit, and are therefore a danger. They are “enforcing the law” and “protecting the public”. The city chooses to levy a fine because by hitting you in your pocketbook, you are more likely to take notice and stop with the offending behavior. The city won’t put you in jail for something as simple as speeding, or illegally parking, because that would crowd out the jail’s space which is better reserved for REAL criminals.

    Nor does this change that fact that SWAT teams are overused.

    You’ll get no arguement from me on this one.

    And the lack of accountability is amazing. A SWAT officer can screw up seven ways to sunday, and walk away with a clean skin.
    Every time. “It’s not the officer’s fault, -someone- else screwed up.” Bullshit. Your weapon, your finger, your bullet, your -fault-. Live with it, or get out of the business. If we, as civilians have to worry about it, so should LEOs

    Care to provide some proof to back your wild assertation? In every department, Internal Affairs does an investigation EVERY time an officer discharges their weapon in the line of duty. I’ve seen plenty of guy’s careers ruined because of the cloud that hangs over an officer, even if the shoot is determined to be good. It all depends on how much the bureaucrats upstairs are willing to back their officers downstairs. That’s what happens when you get elected officials in charge of a volunteer force (Murtha? Murtha?). Some departments even go so far as to have an IA investigation when an officer uses their TASER!

    Take your crazy and sell it somewhere else. We’re all full here.

  50. Comment by "Lady H" aka Dori

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    Great discussion/debate going on here, guys, and it’s pretty civil.

    And welcome to the Rott, Archon. Don’t think I’ve seen you here before.

  51. Unregistered Comment by rnman99

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    … any cop who even uses the term “civilian” without having a DD-214 in his job history needs to be drafted instantly, and sent to Iraq or Afghanistan for a couple of years

    Amen.

  52. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    Archon;

    there are two arguments here, only -slightly- related.

    Argument 1: Using police to ‘collect revenue’ is bad, because it causes the population to fear and mistrust LEOs.

    Argument 2: SWAT teams are a poorly thought out, badly overused idea, with not enough consequences. Not ‘oversight’, not ‘IA investigations’ -consequences-. When you strap on the badge, and then step on your dick, I want to see you held accountable.

    The number of screw ups that have been swept under the rug in the last 15 years, particularly in the last 5 are horrifying.

    I’m not going to waste time and space listing them. you know them. There are people who make a -living- documenting how badly and how often LEOs screw up, and how lightly they get off.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that you happen to -be- a LEO, so you might want to put down the blue kool-aid and -listen- to the people you are supposed to protect and serve.

    I feel neither protected, nor served. Assuming for the moment that you are in law enforcement, allow me to tell you that I am a -very- dissatisfied customer of the service you are paid to provide. Your pay is taken from -me- by threat of force. Dont scoff, if I refuse to pay sooner or later, men with guns and pretty pieces of tin will come to my house and -make- me pay.

    And just to clarify a few things. I -want- to be able to trust LEOs.

  53. Meinhornid Comment by Meinhornid

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    hilljohnny, yes we need the titanium! The rotor must be very light since it will be powered by the mind-reading rays themselves, so Depleted Uranium is right out. RPMs will therefore be dependent upon the altitude of the satellite, but a magnetic bearing will help. Spin direction will be counterclockwise in the northen hemisphere and clockwise in the southern hemisphere to get a little help from the Coriolis effect. People near the equator, well, they’re just going to have to get mind-read! :em93:

  54. maxxdog Comment by maxxdog

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    From the mayor on down that city is fucked up like a square wheel.
    Liberalism! Need I say more?
    They’ve budgeted money for business loans that won’t charge interest per se, but only for people whose religion doesn’t allow the paying of interest. We all know what religion that is.
    It is also a sanctuary city.
    I don’t go there much.

  55. Unregistered Comment by LC Elchonon, Imperial Chief of Civil Disobedience

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    Israeli cops carry m-16 mini plus handguns etc.. the cops in hostile areas have a backpack with club, helmet gas gernades etc.. when they are on patrol. Israel has many “swat units” yasam, yamam, yoav etc.. with some hostage situations being done by the army’s sayeret matcal (kind of delta force) etc..

    This is because many units such as mishmar hagvul (border guards) are millatary under police command.

    They are extremly effective, myself having faced off against yasam, yamam, mishmar hagvul and a zxillion other dozens of times..

    The army does well facing off against arab terrorists, sometimes the door is blown off, its shock and suprise..

  56. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    SWAT teams are a poorly thought out, badly overused idea, with not enough consequences.

    this is true, the swat is a poor solution too a very bad problem. that said it is the only solution that works in some situations. the best trained and lead forces in the world all have less than perfect records. until there is a better way of dealing with heavily armed goblins we can’t do away with them. so while we rant, rave and foam at the mouth if they screw the pooch, please remember that we also stand and cheer when they do it right.

  57. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    And the lack of accountability is amazing. A SWAT officer can screw up seven ways to sunday, and walk away with a clean skin.

    Care to provide some proof to back your wild assertation?

    Might want to have a look here and here. (I call your special attention to pages 35-40 of the latter.)

  58. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    Comment by hilljohnny

    this is true, the swat is a poor solution too a very bad problem. that said it is the only solution that works in some situations. the best trained and lead forces in the world all have less than perfect records. until there is a better way of dealing with heavily armed goblins we can’t do away with them. so while we rant, rave and foam at the mouth if they screw the pooch, please remember that we also stand and cheer when they do it right.

    “less than perfect records.”

    it’s not the less than perfect records that bother me.

    here’s my bitch about SWAT.

    1. SWAT gets rolled out for dumber and dumber shit every year. In a few years, I expect to see them get rolled out to serve parking tickets.

    2. SWAT pulls fund away from normal operations. it might not be direct, but it happens.

    3. There is -zero- accountability in Law Enforcement unless you -really-, horribly, blatenly fuck the pooch. Hell, those idiots who shot up kathryn johnston -almost- got away with it. If thier informant hadnt suddenly grown a pair of balls, they very likely would have.

    Saying “Oh IA investigates all over the place, it’s terrible’ is -meaningless-.

    Unless there are consequences. Which there most usually are not. Hell even where I live some of the shit the local PD gets away with would freak you out.

  59. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    Silly Wankers Acting Tactical?

    Socialist Wannabees Attacking Townhouses?

    Spetznaz, Wehrmacht… Adolph’s Terrorists?

    Simply Want Another Taco?

  60. Unregistered Comment by Archon

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    Argument 1: Using police to ‘collect revenue’ is bad, because it causes the population to fear and mistrust LEOs.

    Again, I have to ask: When was the last time you made a check out to your local PD? The police do not collect revenue. In enforcing the laws, they levy fines on behalf of the city/county/town/municipality, whose laws they enforce. Instead of making you spend time in jail for your infractions, they instead decide to fine you. Taking a person’s money for violating the rules is a punishment that has been in use for ages, because it makes you sit up and take notice. But that money is paid to the city, not the police department.

    Argument 2: SWAT teams are a poorly thought out, badly overused idea, with not enough consequences.

    In the Army, I always told my troops to bring me solutions, not problems. You are bringing a problem…where is your solution? Poorly thought out? Show me you can do better. I will concede the “overused” point. SWAT is used by civic administrators these days as a CYA function, when regular patrol officers are perfectly capable of most jobs. It’s a waste of time and money, but it looks good on paper, which the administrators use to keep their job.

    I’m not going to waste time and space listing them. you know them. There are people who make a -living- documenting how badly and how often LEOs screw up, and how lightly they get off.

    Let’s assume for a moment that I’m an ignorant retired Army E-8 anbd that I don’t know them. You made a point, you need to be able to defend it.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that you happen to -be- a LEO, so you might want to put down the blue kool-aid and -listen- to the people you are supposed to protect and serve.

    Your “sneaking suspicion” is has a high probability of being incorrect, or possibly flat out wrong. I started my first post by saying that I am not a Law Enforcement Officer. I am a man of my word. However, I have worked with some of the best SWAT, SEB, and SRT teams in the country, and I respect these men and women for the work they do, and especially for the restraint and dicipline they show.

    Assuming for the moment that you are in law enforcement, allow me to tell you that I am a -very- dissatisfied customer of the service you are paid to provide.

    My daddy used to always say, “When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me.” Stop making me into an ass.

    People seem to be missing my main point here. Everyone here seems to be out to villify these officers, when the people they should be mad at the Chiefs, city administrators, and the lacksadaisical FUCKWITS who didn’t do their job that led to this incident. I am all for giving credit where credit is due, and conversely, placing blame when it is called upon. Some here seem to eager to place the blame in the WRONG place.

  61. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    Roguetek

    SWAT gets rolled out for dumber and dumber shit every year

    i agree, they get SENT. they don’t pick their runs.

    SWAT pulls fund away from normal operations.

    right again, if you are going to have more people and training you have to pay for it. the problem here is not the police budget. it’s the extra taxes out of the taxpayers pocket.

    zero- accountability in Law Enforcement

    near enough true for me. i know all the questions. i wish i had some answers.

  62. Paladin Comment by Paladin

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    The homeowner is not always so “lucky”. I remember clearly the 1970s case of a raid on the home of Kenyon Ballou, who was taking a bath when his wife announced that some men dressed were yelling something unintelligible and breaking in the front door. Evidently a gun collector, he sprang from the tub and grabbed the nearest gun handy, a black powder Colt Walker replica. As they broke the door down and opened fire, he was struck in the head. The brain damage resulted in mental incapacitation, ending his normal life.
    As I recall, the reason was that he simply possessed both a standard demil WWII grenade body commonly used in desk paperweights (”Complaint Dept - take one”) and black powder (for the antique handgun replica), both of which are separately legal. There was no assembled grenade with fuse, nor any attempt or desire to do so. All on the strength of an anonymous “tipster” stating he had a live grenade.
    While I realize there are ocassional needs for trained SWAT teams, this was the earliest fukkup that I remember.
    How often, as well, have we heard of raids being conducted on wrong addresses in error due, to extreme carelessness?
    It seems that all too often the effect on innocent homedwellers is understressed, resulting in unnecessary tragic injuries or damage.

  63. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    Comment by Archon ;

    Again, I have to ask: When was the last time you made a check out to your local PD? The police do not collect revenue. In enforcing the laws, they levy fines on behalf of the city/county/town/municipality, whose laws they enforce. Instead of making you spend time in jail for your infractions, they instead decide to fine you.

    Perhaps so, but the cop on the street makes the decision as to -which- person he busts, and why.

    Taking a person’s money for violating the rules is a punishment that has been in use for ages, because it makes you sit up and take notice. But that money is paid to the city, not the police department.

    2 things.

    1. municipalities have gotten into the habit of wanting money, and making up reasons to take it. and then having LEOs do the actual taking. and yes, this is how it boils down. I can yell and and screech and refuse all I want. Sooner or later, a man with a badge, and a gun, will -make me- give up my hard earned money.

    2. Forfiture. Forfiture is lovely. All the LEO has to do is -claim- it’s drug money, or what have you. The -police deparment- not the town, gets to keep the proceeds. If Forfiture as it is used in the US today -isnt- banditry, color me very, very suprised.

    why? because even if you prove your innocence you -still- may not get your stuff back.

    Argument 2: SWAT teams are a poorly thought out, badly overused idea, with not enough consequences.

    In the Army, I always told my troops to bring me solutions, not problems. You are bringing a problem…where is your solution?

    1.Shut SWAT down in any city with a population less than 100,000. Create a burden of proof to be able to operate a SWAT unit. If such a format is in place, tighten it.

    2.Create a seperate organization for stealing peoples money. Call it whatever you like, but make it such that LEOs are -not- involved with fines.

    3. change the forfiture laws to be constitutional. LE must proove the property is ‘dirty’. If need be it can be held by an escrow company in the mean time.

    Let’s assume for a moment that I’m an ignorant retired Army E-8 anbd that I don’t know them. You made a point, you need to be able to defend it.

    Looks like I wont have to, others have already started dropping links. Randy Balko is a good place to start. He’s a little strident, but you can branch out from there. Hint for you, you want something extra from me, ask nice. I -could- just as simply state ‘no, you have to prove me -wrong-’ and insist that you do all the work.

    Your “sneaking suspicion” is has a high probability of being incorrect, or possibly flat out wrong. I started my first post by saying that I am not a Law Enforcement Officer. I am a man of my word.

    I missed that

    However, I have worked with some of the best SWAT, SEB, and SRT teams in the country, and I respect these men and women for the work they do, and especially for the restraint and dicipline they show.

    The article that started this shows that they dumped a -minimum- of 30 rounds and didnt hit shit. you might call that ‘good work’ or ‘discipline’ I call it poor fire discipline, bad tactics, and insufficient training. You dont dump a round unless you have a target. The homeowner did pretty good tho. shot twice, hit twice.

    The articles on the web of ‘cops shoot a kazillion rounds, hit nuthin’ abound…

    People seem to be missing my main point here. Everyone here seems to be out to villify these officers,

    Here’s the thing. The man on the SWAT team -chose- to be there. Nobody -made- him sign up, nobody made him shoot.
    -He- is the man on the spot. not someone in an office. You want a break? quit being such a Barny.

    when the people they should be mad at the Chiefs, city administrators, and the lacksadaisical FUCKWITS who didn’t do their job that led to this incident.

    Dont worry, they too are on the list.

    I am all for giving credit where credit is due, and conversely, placing blame when it is called upon. Some here seem to eager to place the blame in the WRONG place.

    You pull trigger, you responsible for bullet. End of story. no more, no less.

    If you shoot the wrong guy, then you should be on the hook just like any -other- person in this country.

    As a side note, you have a particularly abrasive style. If you wish to continue down that path, so be it, I used to play on USENET in .alt hierarchy, I can play that game -all- night long.

    I’d -rather- be polite.

    P.S.

    http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,317198,00.html

  64. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    Again, I have to ask: When was the last time you made a check out to your local PD? The police do not collect revenue.

    No, but at least in 25 states, they have benefited directly from property they’ve seized, lawfully or otherwise.

    People seem to be missing my main point here.

    When you open with blatant snark like this…

    A lot of you people need to adjust your tin-foil hats. Circulation to your brain is obviously getting cut off.

    don’t expect too many people to be overly concerned with your points or anything else you write.

    Just a suggestion.

  65. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    http://reason.com/blog/show/123931.html

    http://reason.com/blog/show/123886.html

    http://reason.com/blog/show/123590.html

    “only ones” site:waronguns.blogspot.com

    the list goes on and on and on and on and well you get the idea.

  66. Tonto Comment by Tonto

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    Too bad that some cops got “dinged”. And DAMN lucky homeowner! This happens much more often than is reported or even admitted to. Innocent people have been killed by OOOPSIE police/atf/fbi “mistakes”. ATF stormtroopers have kicked down doors, destroyed domiciles while looking for “contraband” and just walked away from the wreckage, without even an apology or reparations, many times. Local cops sometimes “use” ATF as instruments of revenge against people that have made fools of them because there seems to be no recourse against these goons. An armed society is a free society. The more legal guns and practiced citizens there are out there, the more careful and considerate cops become….they’re even courteous in areas where a lot of citizens are known to be armed.

  67. Unregistered Comment by Archon

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    Again, this will be split between two different people.

    First is Roguetek:

    Perhaps so, but the cop on the street makes the decision as to -which- person he busts, and why.

    You’re absolutely correct. The cop on the street makes a decision as to which LAW BREAKER he gets to bust. A good friend of mine told me, “You want to get out of a ticket? Don’t break the law.” This was right before he wrote me a ticket for doing 85 in a 70.

    1. municipalities have gotten into the habit of wanting money, and making up reasons to take it. and then having LEOs do the actual taking. and yes, this is how it boils down. I can yell and and screech and refuse all I want. Sooner or later, a man with a badge, and a gun, will -make me- give up my hard earned money.

    While I will concede that there are some goofy frackin laws out there, the fact remains that if it’s unconstitutional, you have every right to challenge it in a court of law. Otherwise, it has lawfully been enacted and, as a society of laws, you don’t get to decide which ones you get to follow. If you get a ticket for speeding and decide not pay your fine, a number of steps will occur to try and collect from you. Your driver’s license may be suspended. A warrant may be put out for your arrest. But there is a statistically insignificant chance that someone with a badge and a gun will kick in your door and demand money. Like I said before: You want to get out of a ticket? Don’t break the law.

    2. Forfiture. Forfiture is lovely. All the LEO has to do is -claim- it’s drug money, or what have you. The -police deparment- not the town, gets to keep the proceeds. If Forfiture as it is used in the US today -isnt- banditry, color me very, very suprised.

    why? because even if you prove your innocence you -still- may not get your stuff back.

    I’m sorry, but you’re flat out wrong. If you can prove, in the instance you provided, that money you had was not drug money, then you get it back. I will say, however, that this system is still flawed. Last I checked, we were supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, and the burden of proof was on the state to prove my guilt. It’s flawed, but it’s still the best around.

    1.Shut SWAT down in any city with a population less than 100,000. Create a burden of proof to be able to operate a SWAT unit. If such a format is in place, tighten it.

    You’re proposing bigger government control when it isn’t needed. The conservative in me can’t agree with that. Maybe making a decision of the citizens in the municipality?

    2.Create a seperate organization for stealing peoples money. Call it whatever you like, but make it such that LEOs are -not- involved with fines.

    Well, first I’ll say that we already have a federal organization like that. It’s called the IRS. I don’t want a state or city version hounding me as well. Second, I will re-emphasize that the police do NOT collect fines. They write you a citation for violating the law. The courts decide the fine, based on the law.

    3. change the forfiture laws to be constitutional. LE must proove the property is ‘dirty’. If need be it can be held by an escrow company in the mean time.

    As far as I know, they are. Laws will vary from city to city, obviously, but unconstitutional laws have a dirty habit of getting challenged in court.

    Hint for you, you want something extra from me, ask nice. I -could- just as simply state ‘no, you have to prove me -wrong-’ and insist that you do all the work.

    No. You are the one who made a blanket statement. The burden of proof rests on YOU to prove. The same logic is used against trolls on this site all the time who pull sentences out of their fourth point of contact. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

    The article that started this shows that they dumped a -minimum- of 30 rounds and didnt hit shit.

    Which I condemned in my first post, but let’s go ahead and call it an act of God that an innocent homeowner DIDN’T get shot for absolutely no reason. So far as the lack of training goes, I have touched on this as well. Once again, the blame rests on the TOP of the chain of command, not the bottom. Someone polished shoe fuckstain decided to buy weapons and gear for a team, and neglected training. They decided that an EEO class, or a new bunch of patches, or simply cutting spending on their watch, was more important than ensuring proper training. When your only tool is a hammer, all your problems start to look like nails.

    Here’s the thing. The man on the SWAT team -chose- to be there. Nobody -made- him sign up, nobody made him shoot.
    -He- is the man on the spot. not someone in an office. You want a break? quit being such a Barny.

    I am willing to bet the sequence of events was: breach, shotgun, SWAT fire; not breach, SWAT fire, shotgun. By his own admission, the home owner did not speak english very well. He heard people entering his house, he grabbed his weapon and fired, and had fire returned. I am willing to guarantee that SWAT did not fire first. In this instance, of course the officer made a decision to fire. As far as he knew, he was entering a hostile zone and recieved fire. What sane person WOULDN’T return fire? No, nobody made the SWAT officers be there. But they signed up for a job, and as far as they knew, they were acting in accordance of the law and their duties. Their job is to serve the warrant, not investigate it. The failure occured long before SWAT ever got the call. You want me to stop being such a Barney, give me accurate, actionable intel. Then I don’t look like a douche, and you don’t have to try and sweep things under the rug.

    As a side note, you have a particularly abrasive style. If you wish to continue down that path, so be it, I used to play on USENET in .alt hierarchy, I can play that game -all- night long.

    I’ll admit I have an abrasive style. I blame a career of being a professional asshole. As far as the rest of that statement, allow me to say….bwah? I have no idea what you’re talking about, but if my abrasive style offends you, your best bet is to stop reading my posts. I was raised to be a straight forward individual, and I have yet to be impolite. I will continue in my direct manner, unless I were to get banned from this site. I don’t think I have committed any ban-able offences, but then again, the final decision isn’t up to me.

    I’m appreciating the civil discourse. As some famous person (I can’t remember which) said, “I never learned anything from someone I agreed with.”

    Moriarty:

    No, but at least in 25 states, they have benefited directly from property they’ve seized, lawfully or otherwise.

    Yes, they benefited from an unconstitutional law. And someone actually had the guts to stand up to an unconstitutional law, and get it overturned, which will set precedent in future cases. But until the law is declared unconstitutional, you don’t get to decide that you won’t follow it.

    When you open with blatant snark like this…

    A lot of you people need to adjust your tin-foil hats. Circulation to your brain is obviously getting cut off.

    don’t expect too many people to be overly concerned with your points or anything else you write.

    Just a suggestion.

    So you mean to tell me that a single “snarky” comment on a site that is OVERFLOWING with snark overcomes your basic reading comprehension? You are a NOGO at this station, try again.

  68. Unregistered Comment by red_sleeves

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    A couple of questions\ thoughts\observations:

    The SWAT concept in general seems flawed to me. The Posse Comitatus Act prevents the feds from using the military as law enforcement. It protects us by limiting fed power. If we can agree that the Posse Comitatus Act is a sound idea and a good thing to have, then how did we allow the states to use military tactics, weapons, and training to serve warrants? Whether full or part time team members, SWAT seems less law enforcement than USMC HRT.

    It was mentioned earlier in the comments that members of SWAT have said that “SWAT isn’t a job, it’s a mentality.” Really? What kind of mentality?

    Haven’t Officers at some departments been assigned quotas which could be used as part of their performance assessments? (Many departments have admitted this.) These quotas could be for speeding tickets, for example, the fines for which go to the issuing authority. So when you see an LEO patrol car pull up on your six should you be concerned about where he stands in regards to his quota? Or is that just paranoia?

    The Federal Reserve Bank of Saint Louis has concluded “that municipalities use traffic tickets as a means of supplanting falling local revenue.” And, “The fact that local governments increase traffic tickets during periods of revenue decreases but do not decrease traffic tickets in response to revenue increases reveals some degree of revenue maximization on the part of local governments.”

  69. Unregistered Comment by Archon

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    And another post came up while I was posting before, so allow me to respond.

    red_sleeves:

    The SWAT concept in general seems flawed to me. The Posse Comitatus Act prevents the feds from using the military as law enforcement. It protects us by limiting fed power. If we can agree that the Posse Comitatus Act is a sound idea and a good thing to have, then how did we allow the states to use military tactics, weapons, and training to serve warrants? Whether full or part time team members, SWAT seems less law enforcement than USMC HRT.

    SWAT teams trace their roots back to Inspector Gates of the LAPD, who first invisioned such a team (though he admits he didn’t come up with the tactics or equipment requirements) in the late 1960’s, a time of decided civil unrest. SWAT’s first high profile mission came in a shootout with the Symbionese Liberation Army in 1974, in downtown Los Angeles. Because Posse Comitatius prevents federal troops from acting on American soil, and because the SLA forces (and other similar groups prior to them) were armed like modern day guerillas, a “military” response was needed. The original intent of SWAT was not merely to “serve warrants”, but rather to respond to high threat situations, and to serve “high risk” warrants, where their tactics, weapons, and gear would give them an advantage that regular officers wouldn’t have. And, as a side (and technical) note, the USMC does not have a Hostage Rescue Team. The FBI does.

    It was mentioned earlier in the comments that members of SWAT have said that “SWAT isn’t a job, it’s a mentality.” Really? What kind of mentality?

    It is a different mentality than that of a regular beat cop. Beat cops are supposed to be (generally) warm and helpful to the populous that they encounter day to day in the performance of their duty. SWAT officers, when on a call out, are on the assumption that ANYONE they encounter in the target house/building/site has the desire to kill them (this is why SWAT, and not regular officers, serve these high risk warrants). They are supposed to keep this assumption, until a person is determined not to be a threat. If that happens, another member of the department, not the SWAT officer, will usually speak to the person and explain why what happened, happened. It is a simple fact of life that every police officer wants to end their shift with the same number of holes that they started it with. That mentality helps ensure that happens with the SWAT officer, and is the principle reason why I discourage the usage of “part time” teams, and why I hate the fact that SWAT is being called, in some cities, to serve somethings as benign as an eviction notice.

  70. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    as long as we’re talking about screwed-up law enforcement check this link :em93:

  71. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    hilljohnny

    Isn’t it just lovely, a piece of dried-up turd has taken over their house because HE (it) said that’s where he lives!?!? You have got to be shitting me. These poor people are housing and feeding this useless waste of skin on a Court order, for fucksake. They are his keepers, and should this piece of vomit decides to fuck the pooch, what, will they be held accountable too!?

    That’s it, I heard it all.

  72. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    So you mean to tell me that a single “snarky” comment on a site that is OVERFLOWING with snark overcomes your basic reading comprehension? You are a NOGO at this station, try again.

    Haven’t spent much time around here, have you, junior?

    Couple of points: First, try using the built-in spellcheck. It makes it much easier for those of us with “reading comprehension” issues to understand what you’re trying to “invision.”

    Second, most of us probably agree with much of what you’re trying to say (however ineptly.) There really isn’t much need to fuck up whatever first impressions you might be trying to make — just state your point. (We generally reserve snark for idiotarians.)

  73. Unregistered Comment by red_sleeves

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    SWAT teams trace their roots back to Inspector Gates of the LAPD,

    I understand why and how SWAT came about. For similar reasons the FBI’s HRT was formed as a civilian alternative to DELTA. I don’t object to any of that. My concern is where SWAT is used in situations where it is clearly overkill. The mindset going in is different and that presents an altogether different environment for whoever happens to be on the other side of the breach, whether they are the intended target or not. I just don’t like the militarization of our civilian law enforcement and it seems to be getting ever more so.

    I’m not an expert, but I have played with some CQB and MOUT at Lejeune and abroad and I agree that the mindset is as you described it. If Officers are part-time SWAT, how difficult is the mental transformation for them? How much adrenaline and anxiety and stress are they feeling? Opposed to a full time professional who only does SWAT and only thinks SWAT?

    And, as a side (and technical) note, the USMC does not have a Hostage Rescue Team. The FBI does.

    I agree. I meant FAST, not HRT. I was thinking FAST but typed HRT. Thanks for the correction. But I’m a sore loser so I’ll try to recover by allowing that the USMC may not have a dedicated full time hostage rescue team but they do have teams tasked with those functions as part of any SOC qualified MEU.

  74. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    Perhaps so, but the cop on the street makes the decision as to -which- person he busts, and why.

    You’re absolutely correct. The cop on the street makes a decision as to which LAW BREAKER he gets to bust. A good friend of mine told me, “You want to get out of a ticket? Don’t break the law.” This was right before he wrote me a ticket for doing 85 in a 70.

    And then writes you a $50.00 ticket for ‘not wearing your seatbelt’ because he doesn’t like your bumper sticker. Or ‘distracted
    driving’ or ‘unsafe vehicle’ or one of any number of bullshit ‘revenue enhancing’ laws.

    While I will concede that there are some goofy frackin laws out there, the fact remains that if it’s unconstitutional, you have every right to challenge it in a court of law. Otherwise, it has lawfully been enacted and, as a society of laws, you don’t get to decide which ones you get to follow. If you get a ticket for speeding and decide not pay your fine, a number of steps will occur to try and collect from you. Your driver’s license may be suspended. A warrant may be put out for your arrest. But there is a statistically insignificant chance that someone with a badge and a gun will kick in your door and demand money. Like I said before: You want to get out of a ticket? Don’t break the law.

    Two words. “Officer discretion.”

    2. Forfiture. Forfiture is lovely. All the LEO has to do is -claim- it’s drug money, or what have you. The -police deparment- not the town, gets to keep the proceeds. If Forfiture as it is used in the US today -isnt- banditry, color me very, very suprised.

    why? because even if you prove your innocence you -still- may not get your stuff back.

    I’m sorry, but you’re flat out wrong. If you can prove, in the instance you provided, that money you had was not drug money, then you get it back.

    Stuff =/= money.

    your car? oh sorry we already acutioned it off.

    your gun collection? Sorry, those were already scrapped.

    your 60″ plasma tv? it ahhh ‘broke’ yeah that’s it….

    I will say, however, that this system is still flawed. Last I checked, we were supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, and the burden of proof was on the state to prove my guilt. It’s flawed, but it’s still the best around.

    Here’s another thing. Forfiture is a descretionary system. LE can -choose- whether or not to seize your assets. I’m not seeing a whole lot of ‘choosing -not- to seize’. In fact I see the forfiture tap being opened as wide as possible. Stop your car near a hooker? loose your car.( link already provided. ) . Someone -accuses- you of playing your car stereo too loud? loose your car. No proof, no trial, just -bam- gone.

    1.Shut SWAT down in any city with a population less than 100,000. Create a burden of proof to be able to operate a SWAT unit. If such a format is in place, tighten it.

    You’re proposing bigger government control when it isn’t needed. The conservative in me can’t agree with that. Maybe making a decision of the citizens in the municipality?

    Allowing the people to choose? sounds good. Never gonna happen tho.

    3. change the forfiture laws to be constitutional. LE must proove the property is ‘dirty’. If need be it can be held by an escrow company in the mean time.

    As far as I know, they are. Laws will vary from city to city, obviously, but unconstitutional laws have a dirty habit of getting challenged in court.

    No, stuff seized under forfiture goes -straight- to the police. No stops at escrow.

    No. You are the one who made a blanket statement. The burden of proof rests on YOU to prove. The same logic is used against trolls on this site all the time who pull sentences out of their fourth point of contact. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

    so you can make blanket statements to say I’m wrong, but I have to prove every jot and tittle? I’m sorry, it doesn’t work that way.

    Here’s the thing. The man on the SWAT team -chose- to be there. Nobody -made- him sign up, nobody made him shoot.
    -He- is the man on the spot. not someone in an office. You want a break? quit being such a Barny.

    I am willing to bet the sequence of events was: breach, shotgun, SWAT fire; not breach, SWAT fire, shotgun. By his own admission, the home owner did not speak english very well. He heard people entering his house, he grabbed his weapon and fired, and had fire returned. I am willing to guarantee that SWAT did not fire first. In this instance, of course the officer made a decision to fire. As far as he knew, he was entering a hostile zone and recieved fire. What sane person WOULDN’T return fire? No, nobody made the SWAT officers be there. But they signed up for a job, and as far as they knew, they were acting in accordance of the law and their duties. Their job is to serve the warrant, not investigate it. The failure occured long before SWAT ever got the call.

    And none of that changes the fact that the SWAT officer -choose- to become a SWAT officer. The LEO made a personal choice to be involved in SWAT. And I believe that if you -choose- to go into high risk LE, that the -consequnces- of your choice should be yours. Mind you, I think SWAT should also have the choice to reject missions.

    You want me to stop being such a Barney, give me accurate, actionable intel. Then I don’t look like a douche, and you don’t have to try and sweep things under the rug.

    I’ve -given- you that intel. -read- the links, and get back to me with specifics. Otherwise, we dont have anything to talk about.
    And I resent your implications so far that I am paranoid, delusional, insane, and now, a liar.

    As a side note, you have a particularly abrasive style. If you wish to continue down that path, so be it, I used to play on USENET in .alt hierarchy, I can play that game -all- night long.

    I’ll admit I have an abrasive style. I blame a career of being a professional asshole. As far as the rest of that statement, allow me to say….bwah? I have no idea what you’re talking about, but if my abrasive style offends you, your best bet is to stop reading my posts. I was raised to be a straight forward individual, and I have yet to be impolite.

    If this site could be considered boxing, USENET’s .alt tree could be considered getting knifed in the back in a dark ally. rude, nasty, no holds barred conflict. USENET’s .alt crowd -live- for shredding people online. They’ll dredge up every single thing you -ever- said online, and rip it apart. Being on the wrong end of USENET is like getting a telephone pole wrapped in barbed wire, epoxy, broken glass, and battery acid rammed up your ass.

    And if you think you’ve ‘yet to be impolite’ you are sorely mistaken. at least 3 people have politely advised you to stop being a dick. I suggest you -take- the advice, before the dogs catch your scent.

    I’m appreciating the civil discourse. As some famous person (I can’t remember which) said, “I never learned anything from someone I agreed with.”

    So far it’s been civil on one end. -mine-. and you’re trying my patience.

  75. hilljohnny Comment by hilljohnny

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    Hardclimber

    and should this piece of vomit decides to fuck the pooch,

    in this case the pooch is their 16 year-old daughter and i think he’s been there, done that, wiped himself on the t-shirt. :em93:

    Archon before i forget, snark.

  76. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    LC Roguetek

    So far it’s been civil on one end. -mine-. and you’re trying my patience.

    Sir, there are times when you would make even me, your ever so polite, empathic and understanding Canuck, look abrasive with your easy, well-written posts. : :em93: My guess is, certain comments on certain subjects will get you, shall we say, irritated..? On that we share many traits!

    I am certain Archon is as passionate as most of us here on the Rott. His style is different, but hey, he is new and, no doubt, well-meaning. And I would not miss the exchange between passionate people for all the tea in China! That is what makes the Rott such a treasured gift to yours truly.

  77. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    hilljohnny

    in this case the pooch is their 16 year-old daughter and i think he’s been there, done that, wiped himself on the t-shirt.

    Right on! And now, he’s out to screw the rest of the family…

  78. Unregistered Comment by Draven32

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    your gun collection? Sorry, those were already scrapped- except for the nice ones, which are in the possession of our highly qualified law enforcement officers.

    Fixed it for ya.

  79. Unregistered Comment by Archon

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    red_sleeves:

    I understand why and how SWAT came about. For similar reasons the FBI’s HRT was formed as a civilian alternative to DELTA. I don’t object to any of that. My concern is where SWAT is used in situations where it is clearly overkill. The mindset going in is different and that presents an altogether different environment for whoever happens to be on the other side of the breach, whether they are the intended target or not. I just don’t like the militarization of our civilian law enforcement and it seems to be getting ever more so.

    On that fact, you and I are in complete agreement. There used to be a day and time when a department’s narcotics division would serve drug warrants. SWAT would be called out if, in addition to drugs, there was a high probability of a LARGE gunfight breaking out. Now, as i’ve said before, SWAT tends to get called out for things as petty as eviction notices. It’s preposterous. SWAT teams are supposed to be a very specialized tool in the police chief’s toolbox, kind of like a 14mm socket with a 1/2 inch drive. Instead, a lot of cheif’s are using their sockets as hammers.

    If Officers are part-time SWAT, how difficult is the mental transformation for them? How much adrenaline and anxiety and stress are they feeling? Opposed to a full time professional who only does SWAT and only thinks SWAT?

    The answer is too much stress, too much adrenaline, and too much anxiety. You’re basically trying to cram two different mindsets into one person. It makes for a worn out, and much more ineffectual, officer.

    I agree. I meant FAST, not HRT. I was thinking FAST but typed HRT. Thanks for the correction. But I’m a sore loser so I’ll try to recover by allowing that the USMC may not have a dedicated full time hostage rescue team but they do have teams tasked with those functions as part of any SOC qualified MEU.

    Roger, and they are some HSLD Studs, too. Drive on, Devil Dog.

    Roguetek:

    You’ve obviously had more experience in the Forfiture Department than I have, so I’ll cede the point until I’m able to get some research on it done.

    No. You are the one who made a blanket statement. The burden of proof rests on YOU to prove. The same logic is used against trolls on this site all the time who pull sentences out of their fourth point of contact. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

    so you can make blanket statements to say I’m wrong, but I have to prove every jot and tittle? I’m sorry, it doesn’t work that way

    But I didn’t make a blanket statement that you were wrong. I asked if you would “[C]are to provide some proof to back your wild assertations”. In every logical debate I’ve been in, it indeed DOES work that way.

    And none of that changes the fact that the SWAT officer -choose- to become a SWAT officer. The LEO made a personal choice to be involved in SWAT. And I believe that if you -choose- to go into high risk LE, that the -consequnces- of your choice should be yours. Mind you, I think SWAT should also have the choice to reject missions.

    I think we’re running the same race, in different cities. I completely agree that if someone decides to go SWAT (or make any other major life choice), that they should be held responsible for their actions. And yes, there are rare instances where some bolo slips through the cracks and royally screws the pooch on the job. But those instances are A)rare, and B)dealt with in accordance with the laws. To paint a society of professionals who number in the thousands with such a broad brush, based on the actions of a few, is as bad as De Palma saying all of our soldiers and Marines are rapists bases on the actions of a few. The entire point I’ve been trying to get across here is that people are out to crucify these SWAT officers, when they infact, did nothing wrong (short of completely missing their target, but God works in mysterious ways, right?). As far as SWAT teams being able to reject missions goes….I don’t know. That’s something I’ll have to talk to some guys over some beers with. I know in some cities they have that option (Kansas City, Misery comes to mind for some reason), but I don’t know if it should be a blanket policy across the board. An interesting thought to be sure.

    You want me to stop being such a Barney, give me accurate, actionable intel. Then I don’t look like a douche, and you don’t have to try and sweep things under the rug.

    I’ve -given- you that intel. -read- the links, and get back to me with specifics. Otherwise, we dont have anything to talk about.
    And I resent your implications so far that I am paranoid, delusional, insane, and now, a liar.

    Calm down. You misunderstood me. I was putting us in a hypothetical situation where “I” was a SWAT cop (the Barney, as you called it), and “you” was the officer’s supervisors. Bad wording on my part. I blame the beer. Rewritten, it should have read “If the officer’s supervisors want them to stop looking like such a Barney, they should be given accurate, actionable intel. Then the officer doesn’t look like a douche, and the supervisor doesn’t have to try and sweep things under the rug.” My mistake.

    If this site could be considered boxing, USENET’s .alt tree could be considered getting knifed in the back in a dark ally. rude, nasty, no holds barred conflict. USENET’s .alt crowd -live- for shredding people online. They’ll dredge up every single thing you -ever- said online, and rip it apart. Being on the wrong end of USENET is like getting a telephone pole wrapped in barbed wire, epoxy, broken glass, and battery acid rammed up your ass.

    And here I thought someone would have to go to Thailand and pay someone for that kind of treatment. Thanks for the clarification.

    And if you think you’ve ‘yet to be impolite’ you are sorely mistaken. at least 3 people have politely advised you to stop being a dick. I suggest you -take- the advice, before the dogs catch your scent.

    Obviously, you and I have different definitions of “impolite”. I have yet to use harsh or inappropriate language directed at a specific person. I have not hurled insults, or labeled anyone with names. Am I direct? You better believe it. But just because I don’t scrape, grovel, or beg permission, do not label me impolite.

    So far it’s been civil on one end. -mine-. and you’re trying my patience.

    As stated above, I have been civil. If your patience is wearing thin, then perhaps you should back away from the discussion for a bit. Grab a beer, come back refreshed, and we can continue. Because I will not be changing my style.

    Moriarty:

    Haven’t spent much time around here, have you, junior?

    Actually, “junior” I have. I comment rarely because, for the most part, I’m in agreement with things that are said here, and the time that I’m not, the other members of this board are already all over it. No need for me to jump on a pile when something I would have said has already been handled.

    Couple of points: First, try using the built-in spellcheck. It makes it much easier for those of us with “reading comprehension” issues to understand what you’re trying to “invision.”

    Except for a few typos, my spelling has been impeccable. But you keep trying to come up with something, I’ll be waiting.

    Second, most of us probably agree with much of what you’re trying to say (however ineptly.) There really isn’t much need to fuck up whatever first impressions you might be trying to make — just state your point. (We generally reserve snark for idiotarians.)

    Would you care to enlighten me as to your definition of “inept”? I have made my points clearly and concisely. Last I checked, that was the direct OPPOSITE of ineptness. As far as “first impressions” go, I prefer to give the same first impression on the internet as I do in real life. I do not cut corners, I do not mince words, and I do not fence sit. If this disagrees with your delicate constitution, then you and I should not converse. Otherwise, I’ll welcome any discourse we may have.

    Hardclimber:

    I am certain Archon is as passionate as most of us here on the Rott

    And Bingo was his name-o. This is something I care very much about because, as I’ve said, I want the blame for this incident to go to the right places.

  80. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    LC Hardclimber- Which is why I’m taking the time to be nice. I’m sure Archon will settle in given some time.

    Draven32. you laugh. Is not so funny. I had a .45 EAA Witness full size in a steel frame seized by the police, during a traffic stop.
    They don’t make that model anymore. Full length dust guard, hand carved moose antler grips, 3 pound -crisp- custom trigger, tightened rails, polished and ported magazine well, high end polygonal rifling in the custom barrel. Probably a 1500.00 gun. took me 3 months, begging, pleading, and a 100.00 fine/bribe to get it back.

    To add insult to injury, someone had been playing with it. While it was in their possession -someone- took it to the range and dumped at least 200 rounds down it, and put it away dirty.

    Their argument for seizing it? I was driving a shitty primered out 86 VW golf. I ‘couldnt possibly afford such a weapon, so it’s probably stolen.’

    And their argument for the stop? they wanted to check my inspection sticker.

    so let’s review shall we?

    An officer of the law;

    1. saw an opportunity to ‘raise revenue’. Specifically, a legal, if somewhat dodgy looking vehicle, that was -not breaking any laws at the time-. Not speeding, not driving erratically, no tail light out, nothing.

    2. after failing to find anything to charge me with, illegally searches the vehicle for drugs.

    3. makes a -personal- decision that my weapon is far too nice, and therefore must be stolen.

    4. Under color of authority -steals- it.

    5. While they have my weapon. They take it out and play with it, like it was already ‘theirs’.

    Now… where were we?

  81. Unregistered Comment by Draven32

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    Roguetek, notice i didn’t even put a smiley in my post. I wasn’t joking. I’ve read a post somewhere where due to some legal mess-up, someone had their weapons taken, and only some returned, because the rest had been ’sold at auction’. The guy then saw someone shooting next to him at an indoor range- with his pearl-gripped single-action revolver. He got it back, and the officer was kinda sheepish about the whole ‘I bought it from the department’ thing.

  82. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    Comment by Archon UNITED STATES

    On that fact, you and I are in complete agreement. There used to be a day and time when a department’s narcotics division would serve drug warrants. SWAT would be called out if, in addition to drugs, there was a high probability of a LARGE gunfight breaking out. Now, as i’ve said before, SWAT tends to get called out for things as petty as eviction notices. It’s preposterous. SWAT teams are supposed to be a very specialized tool in the police chief’s toolbox, kind of like a 14mm socket with a 1/2 inch drive. Instead, a lot of cheif’s are using their sockets as hammers.

    The answer is too much stress, too much adrenaline, and too much anxiety. You’re basically trying to cram two different mindsets into one person. It makes for a worn out, and much more ineffectual, officer.

    these are excellent points.

    Roguetek:

    But I didn’t make a blanket statement that you were wrong. I asked if you would “[C]are to provide some proof to back your wild assertations”. In every logical debate I’ve been in, it indeed DOES work that way.

    Correct, but when I put forth the effort to provide the proof, you can damn well read it, and -then- talk to me. Dont demand proof and then ignore it.

    I think we’re running the same race, in different cities.

    I think you are partially correct in that regard. There are some aspects of this problem we can, and do, agree on.

    I completely agree that if someone decides to go SWAT (or make any other major life choice), that they should be held responsible for their actions.

    Agreed.

    And yes, there are rare instances where some bolo slips through the cracks and royally screws the pooch on the job. But those instances are A)rare, and B)dealt with in accordance with the laws.

    And here is where it all breaks down. My contention is that said instances are -not- rare, and the officers in question from the guy who pulled the bang switch to the man who signed the warrent get off scott free. this I have a problem with.

    To paint a society of professionals who number in the thousands with such a broad brush, based on the actions of a few, is as bad as De Palma saying all of our soldiers and Marines are rapists bases on the actions of a few.

    our -provable- instances of soldier misconduct are -very- low, less that 20 known instances ( I only know of 3 so I’m guessing here. ) Our provable instances of LEO misconduct are large by an order of magnatude, if not two or 3.

    The entire point I’ve been trying to get across here is that people are out to crucify these SWAT officers, when they infact, did nothing wrong (short of completely missing their target, but God works in mysterious ways, right?).

    Other than being of questionable competance, these -particular- SWAT officers obeyed their orders.

    As far as SWAT teams being able to reject missions goes….I don’t know. That’s something I’ll have to talk to some guys over some beers with. I know in some cities they have that option (Kansas City, Misery comes to mind for some reason), but I don’t know if it should be a blanket policy across the board. An interesting thought to be sure.

    Calm down. You misunderstood me. I was putting us in a hypothetical situation where “I” was a SWAT cop (the Barney, as you called it), and “you” was the officer’s supervisors. Bad wording on my part. I blame the beer. Rewritten, it should have read “If the officer’s supervisors want them to stop looking like such a Barney, they should be given accurate, actionable intel. Then the officer doesn’t look like a douche, and the supervisor doesn’t have to try and sweep things under the rug.” My mistake.

    That is a decidedly different situation. and one I can acutally agree with.

    Obviously, you and I have different definitions of “impolite”. I have yet to use harsh or inappropriate language directed at a specific person. I have not hurled insults, or labeled anyone with names. Am I direct? You better believe it. But just because I don’t scrape, grovel, or beg permission, do not label me impolite.

    I have not implied that you were paranoid or delusional ( tinfoil hats etc.). I have treated you as though you were another member of a gentleman’s club we both belong to.

    As stated above, I have been civil. If your patience is wearing thin, then perhaps you should back away from the discussion for a bit. Grab a beer, come back refreshed, and we can continue. Because I will not be changing my style.

    When a man asks you to stop standing on his foot, you do not chastise him for leaving it under yours.

  83. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    LC Roguetek ,Archon

    For what it’s worth, damn I’m proud of you two! A passionate discourse with common sense and a “step back and look again” approach to adjust the tone of the exchange! This is exactly what makes the Rott such a fantastic place to comment.

    We have a saying here in New Brunswick… “A good debate on differing views is necessary to keep one’s friends”

    Beer is on me…

  84. LC  MuscleDaddy Comment by LC MuscleDaddy

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    Back about a thousand years ago, when I was in the police academy, we had a speaker from one of the local SWAT teams come to one of our classes.

    One of the things he kept stressing was how ‘you never know what’s inside the building’ - right down to how many rooms you’re going to have to clear (I got it - it was another ‘officer safety’ ad).

    But I had done things like this before, and it’s impressive how much information you can find out about a building before you run up on it.

    After someone else asked what their warrant lead-time was, and got an answer of “usually a day, maybe a little more”, I asked why they didn’t go down to the county building and pull the construction records for the house in question - since the layout of the house had to be submitted prior to construction, and you could take a look at the current tax-rolls at the same time, to verify whether the person you’re looking for is the owner - at least then they’d know the layout & how many rooms to expect, in what order.

    In unusual cases, once the dust had settled, you might have a case of someone looking around and saying “Hey - wasn’t there supposed to be a door over here?”, and wouldn’t things just get more interesting after that?

    I got a look that spoke of how offensive he found that extra limb I had just grown from the middle of my forehead.

    The Director of the academy made some joke about “the guy in the back who finds ways to make things more complex than they need to be.”

    Never did get an answer to that question, and the last ime I checked (maybe only 500 years ago), they were still going in ‘blind’.

    Seems to me that if you’re going to have a SWAT team, you have to consider that the expectation on the part of the public is one of superior equipment, superior training, superior proficiency and superior competence - otherwise, why not just let the dog-catcher do it?

    - MuscleDaddy

    P.S. - As an aside, here’s something that should re-acquaint you with your inner RCOB - very well done - it works off of a Google map that takes a few seconds to load - click on the tags to get the stories.

  85. LC  MuscleDaddy Comment by LC MuscleDaddy

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    BTW, as someone who has been around here for - oh, a minute or two - I haven’t found Archon to be any harder, harsher or further out-of-line than any of the rest of us can be when we get serious about something.

    Don’t sweat it, Archon - you’re doing just fine.
    (though I will suggest a thorough inspection and acknowledgement of provided references, after you’ve asked for them)

    - MuscleDaddy

  86. Unregistered Comment by Ogrrre

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    Archon, I am so happy you live in an ideal world where cops are honest and competent.
    So, police officers only ticket law-breakers, eh? Well, in this dimension, the cops aren’t all that honest.
    Item: 10 pm on the Lake Road north of Wewoka, OK. The speed limit on this road is 35 mph. A friend was on this road driving home after work one night. A car came up behind her with brights on and tailgated her. She sped up to get some distance. The car crept back up on her tailgate. She sped up to get some distance between them. The red and blues came on. It was a local cop generating revenue for the city of Wewoka. Don’t you dare sit there and tell me that only law-breakers are ticketed. Not only did this cop entrap the lady, the judge allowed the stop.
    Item: Some other friends of mine were trying to fix up a house. The house was burgled several times while they were working on it. The came in one day, and found the house had been broken into again. They found a girl’s diary left behind which described some of the earlier break-ins. They turned this diary over to the police. The officer managed to “lose” the diary. It turns out the officer was having a sexual relationship with the authoress of the diary. The girl involved was 15 years old.
    This post can go on and on. There are some police departments that are thoroughly corrupt. Some of them are small town departments, and some are not. Some officers are criminals and worse, and getting shot by a frightened or pissed off “civilian” is too good for them.
    This is my first post here at nicedoggie, and it might get me banned, but the truth is the truth.

  87. LC Moriarty Comment by LC Moriarty

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    This is something I care very much about because, as I’ve said, I want the blame for this incident to go to the right places.

    Indeed. Let’s explore that.

    The SWAT team commander with whom I’m familiar checks addresses after the Sheriff has already done so. This occurs after the search warrant has been issued and the court has verified the address and property owner with the County Assessor’s office. Failing any of the above, the site is surveilled and a raid does not proceed unless and until there is clear assurance that “the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized” are indeed who and where they should be.

    Now, one may reasonably ask why (after so many years of serving high-risk warrants in an area where illicit drug importation, manufacture and sale is so prevalent) there’s never been a single instance of a no-knock/dynamic entry raid occurring at the wrong residence in this jurisdiction. It may be because there is a clear recognition by everyone involved that neither agency “policy” nor honest mistakes can or should serve as a shield to individual officers who violate someone’s civil rights.

    To sum: Law enforcement officers must be, first and foremost, men and women of reason who accept full responsibility for their actions, by virtue of their capacity to wield summary deadly force. Due diligence in the performance of one’s duty is not a matter of policy, but of rationality.

    It’s been said, but a lot of you seem to have glossed over this tiny fact: The SWAT team did not, repeat NOT hit the wrong house. They hit the house that was specified by the warrant they were serving.

    I’ll only point out that the SWAT team could have avoided a certain amount of trouble had they bothered to check the public ownership record prior to their raid on the “fake but accurate” house.

    Consider the so-called “Ruby Ridge Incident.” When rules of engagement were issued (presumably by Deputy Director Potts, though we’ll never know for certain), they included provisions allowing deadly force to be employed against any armed male, irrespective of the threat he may have posed. Certain members of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team are known to have discussed this among themselves, recognized the blatant unconstitutionality of their orders and disregarded them.

    Contrast that with Lon Horiuchi. He followed the rules and carried out his assignment in a manner that apparently demonstrated sufficient competence that he was also deployed at Waco. Even though his orders were deemed unconstitutional by a Federal court, he remains a free man today, presumably living at taxpayer’s expense. Vicky Weaver, on the other hand, is dead.

    (One wonders at how things might have turned out if Horiuchi had a conscience.)

    We afford no tolerance to individual soldiers who follow unlawful orders in the field, even under threat of summary execution for failure to carry them out. That LEOs should be shielded from any measure of responsibility for committing unconstitutional acts against the citizenry is even more intolerable. Further, if “ignorance of the law is no excuse” for a “civilian,” ignorance of the facts, the law or clinging to “policy” is an untenable excuse for a Peace Officer at any level in any operation.

    The blame lays on the detective who initially sent the information up the CoC for a warrant, and with the CoC itself for not double checking before it handed the warrant to a judge to be signed off.

    Bullshit. As long as they insist on wearing the same uniform, I can’t tell the good ones from the bad ones. They share the same credit and the same blame, right down the line.

    Dismiss everyone involved for incompetence. Open the door to civil prosecution and let a jury determine culpability.

    Next time a high-risk warrant is served, I guarantee there won’t be any “mistakes” — and who knows, the public-at-large may actually start respecting and trusting the police again.

  88. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    Archon-

    I await your reply with no small amount of interest.

  89. Unregistered Comment by Draven32

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    “The enemy of my enemy is my enemy’s enemy, no more, no less.”

  90. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I love Howard Taylor. Which rule is that?

  91. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Wow. Great discussion going on here. Makes me feel really sorry for myself that I’ve been too busy to keep up.

    A few points here: I’m really not saying that all of the responsibility for the fuckup lies with the officers here. It should go without saying that the clown who got the warrant, not to mention the imbecilic black robed fucknozzle who signed off on it without exercising even the slightest amount of due diligence, deserve at least equal amounts of contempt and accountability.

    I’ll remind myself to put in a boilerplate disclaimer to that effect in the future ;)
    However, and this is one huge however, that does not absolve the officers on the scene from accountability. We all know how well the “I vuz only follovink orderz” defense worked at Nuremberg (and for good reason), don’t we? It means that they share responsibility, which is an entirely different bowl of stinky fish.

    I really, really don’t want to live in a society where any low-level stormtrooper can commit crimes the whole live-long day without consequences, as long as some higher-up signed off on an order. I thought we were supposed to be better than that here in the United States? Heck, even where I came from we were better than that. If I’d been caught back then shooting up the neighborhood, firing at a target that I couldn’t see and randomly spraying the surroundings with high-velocity FMJ, I can guarantee you that my ass would be in somebody’s sling whether I had a slew of “legal orders” or not, the only difference being that if I had the orders to back up my actions, I wouldn’t be the only one spending a few decades working on a striped tan.

    And I can guarantee you further that, were I ordered into a situation where my employment of lethal force was a possibility, I’d look into the situation quite carefully before I strapped on my battle rattle and went off to play Rambo. You see, unlike smashing up property, making false arrests or mistakenly confiscating stuff that shouldn’t have been confiscated, popping someone a fresh bodily orifice is quite often not reversible, and I really don’t need clowns in ninja suits who do not thoroughly understand and internalize the huge responsibility that goes with that running around shooting up the neighborhood.

    And I certainly don’t need a situation where any thorough fuckups like this one can be washed off somebody’s record completely simply by saying, in a thick German accent, that he “vuz only follovink orderz.”

    That sort of thing doesn’t really encourage due diligence (I mean, for fuck’s sakes, even I can do a background check on a property and its occupants in a matter of minutes, so don’t tell me that the super qualified Mutant Ninja Turtles can’t), and I fucking demand that that sort of diligence be exhibited by people wielding automatic weapons and acting under the force of the law.

  92. Unregistered Comment by Draven32

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    Roguetek, that would be rule #29.

  93. Unregistered Comment by Archon

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    Archon-

    I await your reply with no small amount of interest.

    Had a couple minutes to pop in a scan the replies. Expect a reply no sooner than Monday. We’re closing up shop for Max leave and then I (finally) get to go see my newborn son. Consider my reply an early Christmas present. Merry Christmas, all of you.

  94. Unregistered Comment by LC Roguetek

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    Misha- I think that’s what has most of us so riled up.

    There is -no- accountability. I can find links but the (literally) thousands informing of cases where the Officers did horrible things and walked away without even so much as a black mark.

    What I -cant- find is cases where “Bad cop does bad things, gets eaten alive by justice system”.

    frankly, if I -was- in LE I would be inclined to climb up the ass of anyone I even -thought- was blemishing my shield.

    I’d be howling for permanent bars to re-hire, jail time, and personal accountability.

  95. LC Hardclimber54 Comment by LC Hardclimber54

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    Archon

    Congratulations on your new son! Best Wishes from Canada and a Merry Christmas and all the best for the New Year to your and yours.

  96. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    We’re closing up shop for Max leave and then I (finally) get to go see my newborn son. Consider my reply an early Christmas present. Merry Christmas, all of you.

    And to you and yours from me as well, thanks!

    Add to that a loud, obnoxious CONGRATULATIONS on the new addition to the family. :em69:

  97. Unregistered Comment by red_sleeves

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    Archon,

    Congratulations. Is this your first?

    I have three now plus one in the pipe. We’re expecting number 4 to be discharged early next summer. Kids make it all tolerable.