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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » Chameleon Politics Of A Different Sort
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Florida Official Fired Over Sex-Change Plan

You know, we keep banging our heads in this shop over this gay rights, transgender, gender-identity issue. Once more, let’s make this perfectly clear, I couldn’t give two hoots in hell what one does in the privacy of his bedroom. Period, end of discussion. I just don’t care. My religious beliefs teach me it’s a sin, yet that is an issue between the individual and his Creator to deal with, and none of my concern. I’ll accept whatever it is that you use to get you jollies in the bedroom as long as it a) doesn’t involve children and b) it’s between consenting adults. Be my guest, but don’t and I repeat DON’T try any ploy however clever, to get me to “embrace” your lifestyle, especially one forcing me through legislation or an activist bench to do it. The gang out there that insists my grandchildren be exposed and taught this is ‘normal’ and acceptable behavior, escalates my objection to a bit more than my vocal opposition-that’s something I’ll fight for. That’s my progeny you freaks, leave them alone, get it?

Our representative, constitutional form of governance allows each citizen exercising the franchise in the ballot box to elect their leaders and other officials based on whatever-the-hell they feel deserves Candidate “A” to be qualified and hopefully, capable of performing the job they are running for. You can’t and won’t prohibit citizens from disallowing a particular candidate by decree, no matter how much you whine and litigate it. It is rammed down the throats of private business and government agencies in any number of ways, but try that crap as we step behind the curtain and you’ll pay the price. We Americans are a pretty stalwart bunch, no matter our ideological differences.

Steve Stanton professed his love for the city and asked the people of Largo to support his decision to undergo a sex change and allow him to keep his $140,000-a-year job as city manager. To his sorrow, the answer came back no.[emph mine]

Boo freakin’ hoo. You were elected as a family man as we shall see later, and as such, the citizens (or at least a purported majority of them) factored that into their decision to elect you.

Almost 500 people packed City Hall on Tuesday night for a special meeting to decide if they would accept someone named Susan instead of Steve as their top official. And while many spoke eloquently in his defense, more called for his ouster.

Eloquent defense or not, is it not reasonable that your electorate might have issues with a leader that isn’t certain of which restroom he should use, just might not comport with his executive decision making as well?

“If Jesus was here tonight, I can guarantee you he’d want him terminated,” said Pastor Ron Saunders of Largo’s Lighthouse Baptist Church. “Make no mistake about it.”

Perhaps not the most articulate representation of the Pastor’s view, however there are indeed some established theological bases supporting that statement. I’ll allow for an assumed bias of the media in taking the Rev. Saunders statement carefully out of context, to portray him as one of those nasty, intolerant Christians.

At the end of the 3 1/2-hour meeting, the City Commission voted 5-2 to begin the legal process of firing Stanton, who went public about his sex-change plans after learning that a local newspaper was about to reveal his secret. The 48-year-old married man and father of a teenage boy can appeal his dismissal, and the commission must vote again to formally fire him from the job he has held for 14 years.

There we have it, democracy in action. The other elected officials representing their constituency faithfully, decided against Steve/Susan. Of course our midiot friends cloud the issue that in spite of his stated intentions, he is a married father that just happens to decide he would rather be a female. Notably absent from the discussion is any statement of the family he’s abandoning and devastating on his ‘lifestyle adjustment’.

Transgender activists Wednesday called Stanton’s firing a “shameful display of ignorance and bias.” But they suggested Largo’s dismissal of the respected government official may be the example they need to persuade Congress to extend employment protections to gays and transsexuals.

Well, they just might get some legislative nonsense on the books, but I think they have a pretty tough case to make retroactively. I would offer an analogy here: Your church, let’s use a Baptist sect or your choice here, after whatever local process they use, hires a new pastor. After serving for some period of time, they learn that the new Pastor is actually a Rabbi, posing as a Baptist. Would or would not a reasonable person view terminating the pastor based on false statements of his actual qualifications? I know it is far from a direct analogy, but it does have a rational parallel doesn’t it? The voters elected a City Manager, that among other things, presented himself as a married male with children. Those qualities, no doubt among others were undeniably part of the reason they elected him. Now giving him the benefit of the doubt here, and I don’t think he deserves it in this case, he comes to a conclusion that he actually is gay and legitimately decides to undergo a sex change operation. It’s IS his decision, but a rational person would also expect that the decision would carry with it, dramatic consequences. In this case would not a reasonable person accept that the right decision would be to resign his position as his emotional/physical status no longer permits him to perform his elected duties? Don’t give me the normal blather, he didn’t wake up one day and decided he would rather wear a dress and no longer tote around his manhood. Remember your worn-out line, people are born gay or transgendered?

“We think this is a really clear example of the type of employment discrimination that transgendered people face every day,” said Simon Aronoff, deputy director of the National Center for Transgender Equality in Washington. “By all accounts, he was doing a good job. The only reason he was fired is because he made the brave decision to live openly.”

Well he did decide to live openly, but the goalposts moved from standing to sitting. Employment discrimination, EEOC and the like are generally used to prevent an employer from initially hiring or disallowing an applicants for obtaining a job. Sorry, but Steve/Sue gets the double whammy here, the ground rules for the hiring of elected or appointed public officials are somewhat different and our system of governance provides a different method and its’ own rules for discharge or termination of an official. We continue to have a dynamic working here concerning free speech and its’ attendant activities. You are most certainly able to cross-dress or even more drastically, mutilate your sexual identity to effect a change, no one is proposing you not be allowed to do that, but there are consequences to said speech and/or activities. The left loves to shout out whatever particular issue du jour is en vogue (thereby exhausting my command of fwench), yet when that has consequences they scream we are suppressing them or bigots or homophobes, you know the drill. Ask the Dixie Chicks how free speech worked out for them. You don’t get to open your piehole and then have the gall to further rub your fan-base nose’s in it and expect to continue selling CDs or concert tickets. That’s not discriminatory, that’s the beauty of the free market at work. Natalie choses to offend a very very large segment of her ‘customers’ and they chose not to buy what she’s trying to sell. Period, end of discussion.

Mathew Staver, founder of the conservative Liberty Counsel legal group, said the city had a duty to reconsider the employment of a top official planning such a drastic change.

“The city hasn’t changed the work environment. He has changed the work environment,” Staver said. “I think it would be more difficult for the city to retain this person because of how it might undermine the representation of the city in the eyes of the community. It could become very awkward.”

Voluntary actions on his part, have consequences regarding his position qualifications with his employers. Pretty simple isn’t it?

The vote came only a day after a Christian university in Michigan fired a male professor living as a woman a few days after she legally changed her name. The university claims the former John Nemecek did not honor the terms of her contract.

“I think they decided to terminate me rather than call me Julie,” said Nemecek, a Baptist minister who worked for 16 years on the faculty of Spring Arbor University. Both sides are scheduled to be in court-ordered mediation in March.

There go those intolerant, homophobe Christians again. Our MSM morally equivocates Islamo-Nazis murdering infidels to Christian ministers violating the very theological basis of their job. Maybe my analogy is better that I thought.

Despite such setbacks, Aronoff said the transgender movement is gaining ground.

“We think this is our year,” he said.

Uhhh huhhhhh. You are gaining lots of ground in the realm of irrelevancy.

Last summer, a judge ruled that a cook in suburban New York City who claims he was fired from an upscale restaurant because he was a woman living as a man was covered by the state’s human rights law, even though it doesn’t mention sexual orientation. The ruling cleared the way for a $3 million discrimination lawsuit to proceed.

The Human Rights Campaign Foundation estimates 10 states and more than 90 local governments have included gender identity in their nondiscrimination policies.

Let’s all say this one more time, anti-discrimination policies apply to the hiring process. You don’t get to retroactively modify the conditions of your employment drastically and use established the policies to hide behind.

Stanton supported a similar ordinance in Largo that failed to pass in 2003, and the fact he kept his personal life to himself back then intensified the anger directed at him Tuesday night.

“Failed to pass in 2003.” That was a clue, no? You tried to jigger the system to ‘out’ yourself, your constituents said no. Tell me exactly why a sane individual would be surprised the same citizens would be angry to learn the real reason for your failed ploy?

“I do not feel he has the integrity, nor the trust, nor the respect, nor the confidence to continue as the city manager of the city of Largo,” said Commissioner Mary Gray Black, who introduced the resolution to fire Stanton.

Stanton listened with hands clasped throughout the meeting.

Simple and to the point, quite eloquent Commissioner Black, well stated.

“It’s just real painful to know that seven days ago I was a good guy and now I have no integrity, I have no trust and, most painful, I have no followers,” Stanton told the crowd before the vote.

His announcement stunned this city of 76,000 near St. Petersburg. Stanton said he had planned to reveal his secret this summer when his 13-year-old son was out of school.

Sorry Steve/Sue, you knew this would be an issue, why else wait to spring your ’surprise’ that way, saving your own son the embarrassment, yet expect the entire city to respond other than negatively?

Stanton said he struggled with his secret desire to be a woman since childhood and hoped to “outrun it.” In 2003, he began counseling.

In a memo to city employees last week, Stanton said he intends to live as a woman for a year to learn whether he is ready for the operation. He said he has gone out in public as a woman only a few times in cities far from Largo.

He said he is taking hormones in preparation for surgery. At Tuesday’s meeting, there was nothing womanly about his appearance as Stanton, a trim figure with a full head of graying hair, faced the crowd in a dark suit and tie.

Right up until the day he intended to show up for work dressed in pumps and a short leather skirt.

“I’m going to be embarrassed if we throw this man out on the trash heap after he’s worked so hard for the city,” said Mayor Patricia Gerard, one of the few people with whom Stanton shared his secret before last week. “We have a choice to make: We can go back to intolerance, or we can be the city of progress.”

Mayor Patty goes all in with the ‘intolerance card’. City Commissioners call and Patty has a busted flush. You lose, so sorry.

City Commissioner Gay Gentry praised Stanton, but said, “I sense that he has lost his standing as a leader among the employees of the city.”

Any connection with Steve/Sue’s decision to go from standing to pee, to sitting to pee?

Stanton left the room before the votes were cast, head down.

Anbody have a kleenex? I just ran out.

Gerard and Commissioner Rodney J. Woods — the first black commissioner in the city’s 102-year history — cast the only votes in his favor.

Pathetic, just pathetic, play the race card at every chance you get. What in Bog’s name is the reader to conclude from an irrelevant tidbit like that?

49 Responses to “Chameleon Politics Of A Different Sort”
  1. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Foist!

  2. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    city of 76,000 near St. Petersburg

    I think that holding the Rottfest in this guys back yard was enough of a disturbance in the moonbat force to finally drive him over the edge. And the residual conservatism that we left behind made sure that the people were having none of it.

  3. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    Sheesh Crunch, you fast on the draw this morning. I was still editing it and you gots the foist coup.

    I think that holding the Rottfest in this guys back yard was enough of a disturbance in the moonbat force to finally drive him over the edge. And the residual conservatism that we left behind made sure that the people were having none of it.

    *High-Fivin my Brudda*

  4. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Sheesh Crunch, you fast on the draw this morning.

    Well my little angels were up early, consequently so am I! Two 3 year olds screaming in yer ear and a pot of coffee later and here I am.

  5. Radical Redneck Comment by Radical Redneck

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    If you ever have a hankering for white trash, head to Largo. This guy sings the national anthem before every city event!

  6. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Possum boy!

  7. Dick Comment by Dick

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    Misha,
    don’t forget your new home state today.

  8. LC Ranger 6 Comment by LC Ranger 6

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    So does this automatically make his wife a lesbian?

  9. Sir Christopher Comment by Sir Christopher

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    i wonder if chopadickoffame’s are covered under his health care plan

  10. Kristopher Comment by Kristopher

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    The EEOC, and all of its progeny, needs to go.

    If someone wants to make bigoted employment decisions, they should be able to do so.

    If that offends you, boycott that business … sic’ing the State on them is just wrong.

  11. Unregistered Comment by ClimbingFreeman

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    The article says the guy sought a counselor, but methinks he needs to seek another one because the shrink who’s encouraging his sex change is wrong. The way I see it, a lot of this whole “transgendered” thing is a bunch of crap. The transgendered advocates see the problem as “my body does not conform to what I think it should be”, but it’s their mind not conforming to the reality of what their body is. The psychologist he should’ve seen should’ve treated him so he’d be happy as a man (be it a straight man or a gay man, orientation doesn’t matter). So-called “gender reassignment surgery” is more cosmetic mutilation than actual changing of genders. Only God can create a woman, not a surgeon. In my humble opinion, only the true intersexed individuals -those with both or ambiguous genitalia- would be considered for such surgery. Unfortunately, because of the rise of plastic surgery and the gay-rights movement, we get crap like this. He’s being selfish. What about how his wife will handle his change, how his kid will handle the change? But no, it’s all about him and his desire to be a woman.

  12. Unregistered Comment by smokeybehr

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    #9: He’s not an employee of the City of San Francisco, so I would think not.

    This guy is a flake. He should have been getting some counseling and drugs before his epiphany that he’s really a she. I think all this Gender Dysphoria bullshit is just an excuse for girly men to become the girls that they really want to be. The Lefties are telling us men to “get in touch with our feminine side”, then they tout celebrities who act like real men and not girly men as “Ubersexuals”.

    It’s the “pussification” of society by the left-wing liberal hippies out of the ’60s who resented the fact that their parents were real men and women that had a defined set of morals and values. We need to dump all the touchy-feely bullshit and go back to how society was in the ’50s, when men were men, and women were women, and the idiots of society stayed the hell out of the way of everyone.

    As the song goes, “Those Were the Days.”

  13. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    #8 Sir Christopher-

    So does this automatically make his wife a lesbian?

    Ipso Facto, indeed it does. My condolences for the family, I’m guessing this is a rude surprise to them as well.

  14. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    “If Jesus was here tonight, I can guarantee you he’d want him terminated,” said Pastor Ron Saunders of Largo’s Lighthouse Baptist Church. “Make no mistake about it.”

    Really? I was unaware that Jesus himself ever spoke about homosexuality, let alone involve himself in the political workings of government. Actually, I think he made a point to tell people to focus on their own shortcomings and quit worrying about what other people are doing or have done.

    Notably absent from the discussion is any statement of the family he’s abandoning and devastating on his ‘lifestyle adjustment’.

    Aren’t you making the assumption that he is actually abandoning his family? Perhaps the reason the statement is absent is because he isn’t abandoning his family. It could very well be that his family is supporting him in this.

    I find it interesting that you first prefaced this story by stating that you “just don’t care” what two consenting adults do and that you would “accept” their decision to do so, but in the next breath you issue a warning that you aren’t going to “embrace” the lifestyle. Then you go on to tear down this person’s lifestyle decision — something that doesn’t effect you in any way, shape, or form.

    Nobody is asking you to “embrace” anything. You aren’t being told you must find yourself a boyfriend by the end of the week.

    So what, a city manager gets canned. It happens weekly all across this country for a whole spectrum of reasons. Do you cover all of those also?

    This guy probably should have been relieved from his job — not because he was going to be a transexual/transmission/transfatty acid, but because he or (s)he has demonstrated that in the course of this transition that there is no longer the confidence in his or her performance of the job.

    Fair enough.

    Apparently, the job is NOT an elected position, he was hired by the council and not elected by the people. As such, his employment is “at will”, meaning that either he or the council could terminate the employee/employer relationship at any time.

  15. juandos Comment by juandos

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    I think that holding the Rottfest in this guys back yard was enough of a disturbance in the moonbat force to finally drive him over the edge. And the residual conservatism that we left behind made sure that the people were having none of it

    Outstanding Crunchie!… :lol_tb:

    DJ making another blind stab at it says:

    Really? I was unaware that Jesus himself ever spoke about homosexuality, let alone involve himself in the political workings of government. Actually, I think he made a point to tell people to focus on their own shortcomings and quit worrying about what other people are doing or have done

    Hmmm and you know this how? Just asking is all…

    Aren’t you making the assumption that he is actually abandoning his family? Perhaps the reason the statement is absent is because he isn’t abandoning his family. It could very well be that his family is supporting him in this

    Well then let this perv’s family pay him/her/it a $140k/year instead…

    Obviously this clown Steve Stanton is mentally unstable…

  16. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    Really? I was unaware that Jesus himself ever spoke about homosexuality, let alone involve himself in the political workings of government.

    DJ-Come on !!!

    You can do better than that. There are any number of biblical references to homosexuality and it’s unacceptability. As to government, Jesus spoke quite a bit about submitting to authority of government. See: Render under Cesar. That was a very specific point that the government was placed in a position of authority over worldly matters and to be subservient to it in those matters. Likewise he indeed was intensely involved in political workings. The Pharisees were the de facto government of Judea at the time. The Roman Government wisely, allowed the Jews to maintain control of day-to-day matters as dictated by the Pharisees. The Roman Governor was barely more than an administrator with some military authority. Jesus most definitely took issue with the Pharisees throughout his ministry, hardly as you implied, as not being involved in political working of government . It was OT Judaic Law as interpreted by the Pharisee ruling class that he sought to change.

    Don’t play that game with me, you WILL lose !!!

    Perhaps not the most articulate representation of the Pastor’s view

    I didn’t think the Pastor’s statement was appropriate either, as I stated. Of course, the liberal journaljizmer seized on that statement in the expected fashion. Always go after those homophobic Christians.

    I find it interesting that you first prefaced this story by stating that you “just don’t care” what two consenting adults do and that you would “accept” their decision to do so, but in the next breath you issue a warning that you aren’t going to “embrace” the lifestyle.

    And what is your question? I don’t care what consenting adults do and they can have at it all they want. That ends when I’m told by pop culture that I personally have to accept it as normal, and especially when the public educational system teaches it to my grandchildren. Where is the conflict in that? I could care less, but given a choice via the ballot box or indirectly through elected officials at some point, the citizens of Largo decided his decision disqualifies him from service in that position and I agree with them…fully.

    My point which you seem to avoid, was and is, his choice led to consequences that the citizens (his employer) felt was a disqualification for continued employment. The gay-transgender, lobby immediately makes it an issue based on that.

    As to abandoning his family, yes he is spiritually abandoning them. By his own assertion he had some level of concern with his 13 year-old son. Guilt maybe, embarrassment to his son?

    So what, a city manager gets canned. It happens weekly all across this country for a whole spectrum of reasons. Do you cover all of those also?

    They sure do. In this case, the issue at hand driving the story is he’s being made into a “victim” for a voluntary lifestyle choice, that his employer disagrees with enough to terminate him. The gay-lesbian-transgender crowd is the group pushing the issue onto the radar screen.

  17. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    i wonder if chopadickoffame’s are covered under his health care plan

    When I heard Rush use the term yesterday on my drive in to work, I almost crashed my car.

  18. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    This guy probably should have been relieved from his job — not because he was going to be a transexual/transmission/transfatty acid, but because he or (s)he has demonstrated that in the course of this transition that there is no longer the confidence in his or her performance of the job.

    The story I heard Rush read on the air stated that he had worked in the position for quite some time…10-15 years. If performance was an issue, I think it might have been mentioned.

    Nobody is asking you to “embrace” anything. You aren’t being told you must find yourself a boyfriend by the end of the week.

    Let’s read up on that, shall we?

    Steve Stanton professed his love for the city and asked the people of Largo to support his decision to undergo a sex change and allow him to keep his $140,000-a-year job as city manager. To his sorrow, the answer came back no.

    I didn’t write the words “to support his decision”. While “embrace” might not fit the terms you have in mind, he is certainly seeking public approval, much like others in the gay/lesbian/confused community who seek legislation to change the laws to conform with their lifestyle choices, because laws are created by elected officals. In theory, laws are the reflection of customs and mores of society. While Alexis de Toqueville had his concerns about the tyranny of the majority, one needs only look at what is on the current legislative agenda in Olympia right now to understand that the reverse is the reality we are faced with today.

    Really? I was unaware that Jesus himself ever spoke about homosexuality, let alone involve himself in the political workings of government.

    As a stand-alone point, you are correct DJ. However, there is a higher authority in Christianity, that being Jesus’ Dad. Last time I read through Leviticus, the directives were pretty clearly stated.

  19. Sir Christopher Comment by Sir Christopher

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    yeah Blackiswhite..i heard Rush use that term too..classic, i didn’t know there was a term for the opposite of the Addadicktome.

    SmokeyBehr, so you’re in Madera, Caveman’s in Los Banos, I’m up here on the SF peninsula.. we should select coordinates and hang out some day. Watsonville Rott Fest (have a place down there)

  20. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Hmmm and you know this how? Just asking is all…

    Oh I dunno. I guess I have spent a lot of time reading the Bible, instead of cherry-picking items out of it that seems to bolster a tiny world view.

    I am Jewish, but I have read the New Testament. I have also read the OLD Testament — being that it is actually a Jewish book and not adapted for use by Christians.

    Well then let this perv’s family pay him/her/it a $140k/year instead…

    I didn’t notice HOW (s)he intended to pay for it, nor do I care. Frankly I don’t care if he wants to reattach his nutsack under his chin — as long as he is paying for it. It isn’t my business, nor is it yours.

    You can do better than that. There are any number of biblical references to homosexuality and it’s unacceptability.

    No, specifically, you indicated that JESUS would have said something about it. He never, not once, mentioned it himself — not even in passing. It obviously wasn’t an issue with him.

    But there are numerous biblical references to a lot of things that you tend to ignore, that come from Leviticus. I wonder, just how close can you adhere to Leviticus? And do you understand what Leviticus was about and the reasons for the purity laws?

    That ends when I’m told by pop culture that I personally have to accept it as normal, and especially when the public educational system teaches it to my grandchildren.

    But it is normal for some people to be gay, just as it is normal for some people to be Chinese. It’s just that for you and I it isn’t normal, and so be it.

    You just have to learn to accept different people for who or what they are, and quit trying to transfer your normalcy off onto them. I am sure that your not wanting to be gay is not going to be a great loss to those who are gay — and vise-versa.

    As to abandoning his family, yes he is spiritually abandoning them. By his own assertion he had some level of concern with his 13 year-old son. Guilt maybe, embarrassment to his son?

    I think you are reading something into it that just isn’t there:

    His announcement stunned this city of 76,000 near St. Petersburg. Stanton said he had planned to reveal his secret this summer when his 13-year-old son was out of school.

    The article makes no mention as to whether his family knew or not. I suspect that they did, and his decision to make it public took into consideration how OTHER kids would treat his son, NOT whether his son felt “abandoned” by his father. I am sure that if this were actually the case, the media would have been all over the “estranged” wife and son angle of this story.

    For the record, this isn’t a ‘gay’ person. As far as the transgender activists ‘driving’ this story, I suspect that it had more to do with the media looking for the activists for background than it did the activists making it news.

    Here is MY take on all of this.

    If ‘Susan’ had already gone for her life change before getting the job, and had worked for fourteen years before it was discovered that she had actually been a man before, then I probably would have had a serious problem with letting her go. But since this was a case where this person (be it a he or a she) decides to make this major — and extreme — change in his life, then I think it is well within the responsibility and scope of the employer (in this case the city council) to examine the impact and possibly sever employment relations if need be.

    I am assuming that the position of City Manager carries a lot of responsibility and trust, and people have every right to feel that if their manager is going through that extreme of a change in his life, then what is he going to be doing with his position?

    I am not down on this guy for his decision to change his gender. That is his decision. I am also not basing my opinion on the fact that he is changing his gender. I am only looking at what might be right for the city, not knowing what their manager is going through. He is making the change, and part of that is accepting that his life as he knows it will be changed in ways he might not anticipate.

    I have a gay son. He has been gay and “out” since he was around 12. He was able to grow up with people who accepted him for who and what he was, without a lot of problems except from a tiny few who were ignoramuses. Mostly, the kids in his school backed him up, because he is a genuinely likable person to begin with. Nobody got his “gayness” rubbed off onto them unless they were that way already.

    He has certainly taught me a lot about tolerance without the need to push it in my face.

  21. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    Right up until the day he intended to show up for work dressed in pumps and a short leather skirt.

    :lol_wp:

  22. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    The story I heard Rush read on the air stated that he had worked in the position for quite some time…10-15 years. If performance was an issue, I think it might have been mentioned.

    I didn’t say anything about past performance. I was talking about confidence and future trust. The man is making an extreme change in his life. Who’s to say where that boundary ends?

    I didn’t write the words “to support his decision”. While “embrace” might not fit the terms you have in mind, he is certainly seeking public approval,

    ‘Embrace’ and ‘Approve’ have two totally different meanings. The first being you “become”, and the other you “accept”.

    While Alexis de Toqueville had his concerns about the tyranny of the majority, one needs only look at what is on the current legislative agenda in Olympia right now to understand that the reverse is the reality we are faced with today.

    I am guessing that you are referring to the civil union legislation where two people can actually enjoy the same benefits as a married couple without the ‘religious’ connotations.

    Marriage is between one man and one woman — fine. Civil unions are between two adult people — live with it.

  23. BC, Imperial Torturer Comment by BC, Imperial Torturer

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    You just have to learn to accept different people for who or what they are, and quit trying to transfer your normalcy off onto them.

    So having sex with dead animals is also “just another type of normalcy“? After all, don’t try to push YOUR ideas of “normalcy” onto someone who just happens to get his rocks off by fucking Fido’s rotting corpse.

    As with the Librul mindset, there is never anything that’s “right or wrong“, except, of course, anything that’s, in their perverted Socialist worldview, as “conservative“.

    I am not down on this guy for his decision to change his gender. That is his decision. I am also not basing my opinion on the fact that he is changing his gender. I am only looking at what might be right for the city, not knowing what their manager is going through. He is making the change, and part of that is accepting that his life as he knows it will be changed in ways he might not anticipate.

    Spot-fucking-on, Dave. Which is, when you get past all of the philosophical mumbo-jumbo, exactly how most of us feel.

  24. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    I think (and how did this thread get turned into a discussion of the acceptability of homosexuality?) that the problem here is that “accept” means different things to different people.

    I fully accept that some people are attracted to members of the same sex, it’s a fact of life, and I most certainly bear them no ill will, nor does it influence my opinion of them as friends, family members etc., as long as what they’re doing is consensual and takes place among adults in the privacy of their own home (that goes for ALL sexual orientations, I might add, at least as far as I’m concerned).

    What I won’t accept is to be brow-beaten and bullied into considering it perfectly wonderful and no different from anything else. To expand, there are a number of perfectly “straight” sexual practices that I consider “icky” at the very least, and nobody is going to make me change my mind about that either.

    There are things that I’ll never consider normal or particularly palatable, just as there are foods that I will never eat, and trying to pressure me into changing that will achieve nothing except to make me very irritated and annoyed, and I get awfully unpleasant when I’m irritated and annoyed.

    So, in my opinion, it would serve both mine and their interests a whole lot better if they’d keep their private lives out of my face and quit trying to tell me what to think about it. It’s none of my business, and the only result that will ever come from trying to make it my business will be quite disagreeable.

    Since I am, at heart, a quite pleasant and agreeable person, I’d rather that it never came to that, because I don’t like myself very much when I get far away from my Happy Place.

  25. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    No, specifically, you indicated that JESUS would have said something about it. He never, not once, mentioned it himself — not even in passing. It obviously wasn’t an issue with him.

    Really, where did I say Jesus WOULD have said something about homosexuality. You alluded that Jesus wouldn’t have been involved with the workings of government:

    let alone involve himself in the political workings of government.

    There…..and I responded here:

    As to government, Jesus spoke quite a bit about submitting to authority of government.

    Did I say Jesus would have been at the meeting making that statement? NO

    Somewhere between here and there, the thread got hijacked on theology, even after I pointed out I was none too happy with the Pastor’s statement. Perhaps I should have been more forceful with disagreeing with what he said, but I allowed for the possibility of an incomplete or cherry-picked quotation by the writer of the article.

    The fucking post was about:

    The City Manager decided to have sexual reassignment surgery. City officials (being representatives of the residents) decided that it was grounds for terminating his ass. I agree with their decision. The rest of the dog and pony show was expected- Count on the left to bring up Christianity and homophobia at every turn. They and Stanton framed (and defend) the issue in those terms. The rest of the article was fisked to mock the contortions made by the participants to engender guilt in anyone disagreeing with the decision to terminate the guy on grounds of being homophobic.

    He made a decision voluntarily, the consequences of which he is experiencing. Why should I or anyone, be made to feel guilty for agreeing with that consequence, irrespective of my personal religious or moral viewpoints?

    No, we aren’t allowed that, if we don’t accept (or embrace or whatever the fuck you want to call it) someone’s sexual preference, why is it necessary to attack us? Of course he knew his life would change in ways known and not known by that decision. If I chose not to share in his rationale and his expected consequences (that everyone should embrace my sexual identity change) for that decision, why does that make me wrong?

    Marriage is between one man and one woman — fine. Civil unions are between two adult people — live with it.

    And that works fine for me too…I’m a strong supporter of it, by the way, it’s reasonable and the right thing to do.

    Why can’t the radical gay movement let it go at that?

  26. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    #24 Boss-

    DITTO

    Thank you Sire…you said it a LOT clearer than my addled brain could.

    :wallbash_tb:

  27. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    Right up until the day he intended to show up for work dressed in pumps and a short leather skirt.

    No, really…… :lol_wp:

  28. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    So having sex with dead animals is also “just another type of normalcy“? After all, don’t try to push YOUR ideas of “normalcy” onto someone who just happens to get his rocks off by fucking Fido’s rotting corpse.

    I believe this conversation was concerning humans and not animals.

    Misha @ 24:

    I agree, with one minor addendum.

    Nobody is restricting or shutting out a person who happens to like to eat lima beans. They aren’t refusing to rent to a person who likes to eat ketchup on their chocolate cake, or a man who thinks Rosie O’Donnel is better looking than Paris Hilton.

    People accept a man and a woman walking down the street holding hands, but they go ballistic if two guys do the same thing. (ironically, if two women walk hand-in-hand, a lot fewer people object — in fact, it is a fantasy of many otherwise “straight” men two watch two women have sex)

    “Norms” have changed and continue to change over the years. It wasn’t all that long ago that a woman showing skin above the ankle was a scandal, as was being alone with an unmarried woman without an escort.

    I am comfortable enough in my being that I am not threatened by those who happen to be different than myself. Adam and Steve are not going to threaten my personal sexual proclivities. I don’t need to hear the graphic details nor do I wish to witness their congress any more than I would Bob and Carol or Ted and Alice. If they are happy with who they are, that’s up to them.

  29. BC, Imperial Torturer Comment by BC, Imperial Torturer

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    I believe this conversation was concerning humans and not animals.

    And not many years ago, when the word “marriage” was mentioned, it was assumed to mean “1 man + 1 woman”. That’s EXACTLY why I brought up the dead dog-humping story. Considering an individual who’s obviously fucked-up in the head as “normal” opens that ugly door that you and your friends try to keep hidden, when it doesn’t suit your agenda.

    What’s to keep someone, a few of years down the road, from trying to marry his microwave oven? How about a woman who really adores her double-headed, 530 cu. in. Detroit Diesel-powered dildo?

    The whole point is, there comes a point when you have to stop and say:
    “Man (or woman), you are seriously fucked in the head and you need some serious help. You are a sick fuckin’ freak who has no business running around loose in society.”

    nor·mal –adjective

    1. conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
    2. serving to establish a standard.

  30. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    To reinforce BC’s point, about 30 or 40 years or so ago the American Psychiatric Association classified homosexuality as deviant behavior. They reclassified it a choice and look where we are now.

    Guess what. I heard at there last meeting the subject of reclassifying pedophilia was brought up. 30 years from now are we going to have pedophiles in the same political position homosexuals are in now?

    And what after that? I guarangotdamntee you that bestiality will not be far behind. The more you move the standards the more someone will push the envelope until any manner of behavior will have the same defenders that homosexual/lesbian/confused (I.E. deviant) behavior has now.

  31. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    I am comfortable enough in my being that I am not threatened by those who happen to be different than myself.

    Jumping Jeebus DJ- Who said anything at all about feeling threatened by anyone?

    Is it slightly possible that you can “get it” that just because we don’t accept something, it doesn’t follow that we feel threatened by it?

    I feel a helluva lot more threatened by the 6-lb female domestic feline staring at me now, than I’ve ever felt about a gay or lesbian or whatever alternative-sexuality type?

    If you disconnect the feeewing part of your pointy-head you could debate without hyperventilating.

    What part of Do Not Accept Does NOT = Feel Threatened…. don’t you understand?

  32. LC Guido Cabrone Comment by LC Guido Cabrone

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    Apparently, the job is NOT an elected position, he was hired by the council and not elected by the people. As such, his employment is “at will”, meaning that either he or the council could terminate the employee/employer relationship at any time.

    Sorry guys, I have to agree with Deej about this. A “City Manager” is a city employee, not an elected official. And most city managers are hired on contracts that state that they may be fired by the city council if, in the opinion of that council, (the elected officials to which you alluded, JB), they will no longer be able to lead the city employees.

    What has this whole thing blown out of proportion is the “transgendered community” screaming that this guy being fired is discrimination against this employee by the City Council.

    No, I don’t think it is. Some others might disagree with that position, but I have seen city managers fired for equally stupid stunts. (eg. screaming at employees, making sexual advances, nepotism, etc.)

    Basically, a city manager must command the respect of the city employees, and if he or she engages in bahavior that the city employees or elected officials find disturbing, they are going to get canned. All there is to it.

    This is no different than, say, a the manager of an industrial operation being fired for the belief among the employees that he was having an affair with the finance manager. Yes, it happened, I was there. Turned out that he had a “morals clause” in his contract. Were Steve and Stacey actually having an affair? Dunno, it was never actually proven. But the belief was there, our division VP investigaged, and he was turned out with severance.

    Most city manager’s contracts will have the same.
    It’s something like a military officer being relieved of position for “conduct unbecoming”.

  33. LC Guido Cabrone Comment by LC Guido Cabrone

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    (Just for reference, the “city manager” style of government is very common out here in this part of the country. Basically, it means that the City Council and Mayor are more ceremonial and don’t have a lot to do with the day to day running of the city. The manager proposes the budget and revenue plans, and the city coucil and mayor approve/disapprove, while also setting long term goals, etc. Personally, I like the idea of keeping the politicians out of the day to day running of the city. Makes it easier to keep track of where the money is going, and keeps the greedy bastards from getting TOO greedy…)

  34. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    And not many years ago, when the word “marriage” was mentioned, it was assumed to mean “1 man + 1 woman”.

    Still defined as such in Black’s Law Dictionary, which is THE legal dictionary in every jurisdiction of this country.

  35. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    “Norms” have changed and continue to change over the years.

    Change that word “Norms” to the correct word of “Morals” and you will be closer to the truth.
    By subtly changing a few words here and there, the Left has managed to turn their moral compass upside down and have desensitized the general population to what “abnormal” or “amoral” is or is not.
    If you want to equate morals with religion, so be it. Knowing right from wrong, having a standard with which we interact with each other…is not indicative of a religion as much as simple lines drawn to indicate acceptable behavior with regards to how humans are separate from the animal kingdom.

    If you disagree with this being a “moral” issue…then I would suppose you would support having laws that state that murder is wrong abolished? After all…those that commit murder are just exercising their right to choose to take innocent lives part of their lifestyle right? Shouldn’t we just accept that it’s “normal” for those people to desire to engage in that activity? Do we have the right to disagree with the lifestyle they choose?

  36. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    Still defined as such in Black’s Law Dictionary

    Didn’t Jesse Jackson write that?

  37. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    #32 Guids-

    What has this whole thing blown out of proportion is the “transgendered community” screaming that this guy being fired is discrimination against this employee by the City Council.

    Thank you kind sir….that’s the POINT

  38. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    SmokeyBehr, so you’re in Madera, Caveman’s in Los Banos, I’m up here on the SF peninsula.

    Actually Chris, I live in Dos Palos, fifteen miles east of Los Banos. Madera is about half an hour away, the ess eff peninsula two. I lived In Burlingame, Hillsborough, San Mateo, San Bruno. But yes, I know the area well, the peninsula very well and I was in Watsonville today delivering paint. I work In Gilroy, quite a commute. The idea sounds interesting……

  39. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    But there are numerous biblical references to a lot of things that you tend to ignore, that come from Leviticus.

    I wasn’t aware we were THAT well acquainted, DJ. Very well, putting aside those that require penatlies for certain behaviors that a reasonable society will not let us enforce, (assuming Jesus had not instructed us to render onto Caesar earthly authority and unto God spiritual authority—to paraphrase), name six that I “tend to ignore”.

    I wonder, just how close can you adhere to Leviticus?

    Being an imperfect being, and one my creator made that way, I know that I sin. What differentiates my behavior as an imperfect being from the person who commits sin by chosing to live in a perpetual state by choosing a homosexual lifestyle is that the former is part and parcel of the human condition while the latter is a deliberate choice to live contrary to the instructions provided by God. But don’t take my word for it:
    “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.” Leviticus 18:22 NIV

    And do you understand what Leviticus was about

    I’ll take setting God’s people apart and freeing them from sin so they could have a personal relationship with him, for $400.00, Alex.

    and the reasons for the purity laws?

    I’ll go out on a limb here, and assume that your question implicates the various sacrifices prescribed in the book. You’re right, they don’t make a lot of sense in today’s context, especially since Jesus atoned for all our sins, so that the sacrifices were no longer necessary. If you’re talking about eating fat and blood, I don’t make it a point to rip big hunks of fat from flesh and chow down, and while I like my steak on the rare side, nobody is likely to confuse me with a vampire any time soon. If you’re referring to the regulations on clean and unclean food, Christians have traditionally not been terribly concerned about munching on a pork chop, and I tend to agree with them, so that would be one thing that you have me on, maybe.* Being a male, I have never had occasion to purify myself after child birth; if I think I have a skin disease, I see a doctor; if I own something that is mildewed, I’m most likely to throw it away; the admonishments regarding bodily discharges don’t seem quite so rediculous in the ag of fatal blood borne diseases, I have not violated the prohibited sexual behaviors, which have known and proven consequences that are negativly impact indiviuals and families, which is logically not part of God’s plan. The various laws enumerated in Chapter 19 make sense to me, for the same reasons.

    *I know you’re a smart guy, DJ, so you’re probably aware that Jesus was accused of violating the letter of the Law as he kept the spirit of it. Some sects believe that Jesus’ time among men superceded the law. However, Jesus himself said that not a single letter of the law would disappear until everything is accomplished. (Matt. 5:17-20) It doesn’t make sense to believe that that a religion would include an entire book in its teachings that had no application in the faith. Context is everything, and there is an awful lot in the Bible that is as much about the underlying meaning as it is the absolute letter of what is said, and Muzzy’s unsubstantiated ravings aside, the cornerstone of Christianity is the belief in a rational God and an orderly universe. Without such a cultural cornerstone, western civilzation could not have experienced the advances in science, economics, and growth in culture.

    But it is normal for some people to be gay, just as it is normal for some people to be Chinese.

    Your analogy implies that it is not a choice but a genetic predisposition. I recall the talk about a ‘gay’ gene a few years ago. It seemed to be in the public radar just long enough plant the idea in the public consciousness, but then it faded away when no proof was forthcoming. If the day comes when the proof of such a contention is revealed, then you can make this statement as a fact rather than an opinion. Until then, I will challenge the concept every time it comes to the fore in discussions like this.

    I am guessing that you are referring to the civil union legislation where two people can actually enjoy the same benefits as a married couple without the ‘religious’ connotations.

    Among the other insane indulgences the Dhimicrats in Olympia are engaging in. Wasting the legislature’s time and the taxpayer’s money with the resolutions urging impeachment of Bush, enacting a sex ed cirriculum authored by two lesbians that would be taught to my first grader, and further attacking the initiative process because those wacky voters in this state keep using the process to correct the legislature when it [frequently] gets it wrong with this kind of agenda is what I had in mind when I made the statement. I am opposed to civil unions because the purposes for which the gay lobby insists they are necessary can be achieved through other means that do not do violence to current law and custom. Hospital visitation? Can you say medical power of attorney? Inheritance rights? A well-written will takes care of that, without screwing around any further with Title 11 which is already a $^&$!@$@!$@@&^*! mess that I don’t trust the Dhimicrats to fix. Health care? This is where I run into real issues. If you allow it for same-sex partners, then you need to allow it for ‘unmarried but committed’ couples, and then the gays get what they want: the same status as marriage, when it is not and never has been the same thing.

    You just have to learn to accept different people for who or what they are, and quit trying to transfer your normalcy off onto them.

    The very statement implies that you understand that it is NOT normal, and the striving for ‘acceptance/tolerance’ is really seeking an acquiencence to mainstreaming what isn’t mainstream, and when that doesn’t work, implying that there is something evil/wrong/unpalatable about those who resist turning the basis of society—the family—on its ear to change norms of society that have stood for CENTURIES because those who are swimming upstream can feel better about their lifestyle choices.

    And for the record, the doctrine is love the sinner, hate the sin. I’ve worked with gays and bisexuals. I don’t condemn them. I don’t hate them. I don’t think that because they’re gay, they must be attracted to me; I’m not that arrogant. I also don’t think that they should get to tell society to remake itself in their image to make their choices seem more palatable to themselves and others.

    Sorry about the bandwidth, Boss. I realize that my views probably reach beyond the opinions held by The Management.

  40. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Sorry about the bandwidth, Boss. I realize that my views probably reach beyond the opinions held by The Management.

    Not at all. If that’s how you want to spend bandwidth, then please feel free to spend as much as you possibly can!

    Excellent!

    (Oh, and screw the opinions of the Management. We’re a bunch of arrogant arseholes anyway)

  41. BC, Imperial Torturer Comment by BC, Imperial Torturer

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    (Oh, and screw the opinions of the Management. We’re a bunch of arrogant arseholes anyway)

    :eek_wp:

    Begging your Imperial Fuckin’ Pardon™, but I highly resemble that remark!

    :smoke_tb:

  42. LC Guido Cabrone Comment by LC Guido Cabrone

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    Health care? This is where I run into real issues. If you allow it for same-sex partners, then you need to allow it for ‘unmarried but committed’ couples,

    Now, this is something that I do have a bit of trouble understanding, maybe you can help me out here, BisW.

    Shortly after my now wife and I started living together, and I first decided to put her on my insurance, I was informed that, in order to do so, we must be married. So, after discussing this with some attorneys of my acquaintance, (at the time, we were intent on doing the whole thing, with guests, reception, etc. For various reasons, it didn’t happen that way, but, oh, well.), we settled on a “statement of common law marriage”.

    All that this said was words to the effect of; we considered ourselvcs to be living together in a permanent arrangement, and considered ourselves to be married, and were conbining our resources in the manner of a married couple.

    It did not state that we were “husband and wife”, just that we were making a permanent contract to live together.

    This was sufficient authorization for the HR department, (after consultation with the legal department in California), to place her on my health insurance as my “family”.

    Are the laws in Kansas concerning “common law marriage” that much different from the rest of the country?

    Now, admittedly, we were a male and a female doing this, but I do know of at least one gay couple who did the exact same thing in purchasing a house, and, to my knowledge, it was accepted by the finance company.

  43. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    #42-Guido

    In short no-most states have similar common law marriage rights, regardless if they permit civil-unions. I experienced a similar circumstance when I found myself having custody of two of my kids while cohabiting with my wife, before we were married. The bio-mom was living in South Carolina at the time and we both had no family living in the area. The issue was authorization for medical treatment for me or the kids if I was incapacitated or unable to take them for medical treatment, as well as the wife signing contracts, bank transactions, etc. I consulted my attorney and with a few properly completed Powers of Attorney documents (nope he didn’t charge me a dime) I had every conceivable situation covered with Red having all the legal rights, she would enjoy if we were legally married.

    The Boss sez:

    (Oh, and screw the opinions of the Management. We’re a bunch of arrogant arseholes anyway)

    BC sez:

    Begging your Imperial Fuckin’ Pardon™, but I highly resemble that remark!

    Yes we do resemble that, and even worse things, but they use that with a sense of awe !!!!

  44. juandos Comment by juandos

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    DJ (#20) says:

    Oh I dunno. I guess I have spent a lot of time reading the Bible, instead of cherry-picking items out of it that seems to bolster a tiny world view

    Hmmm, which bible would that be? It surely wasn’t the Catholic bible (Douay Rheims) or the King James version…

    See DJ, I’m guessing you missed Paul in Romans Chapter 1 versus 26-28

    Apparently you also missed First Corinthians versus 9 and 10

    Damn it! You caught me again, “cherry - picking” those miserable facts… :wink_wp:

  45. Sir Christopher Comment by Sir Christopher

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    I recall the talk about a ‘gay’ gene

    Don’ tell me Gene is gay!?!?!? He was my favourite member of KISS.

  46. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

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    Begging your Imperial Fuckin’ Pardon™, but I highly resemble that remark!

    Yeah!  Wot he said!!! 

  47. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Begging your Imperial Fuckin’ Pardon™, but I highly resemble that remark!

    Indeed you do, in the Finest Tradition of Empire™, and it is something to be very proud of in this day and age, where you can’t even say “faggot” without “conservatives” having coronaries all over the fookin’ place.

    Seems the PC wars are over, and the idiots won.

  48. L.C. Rowane Comment by L.C. Rowane

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    But it is normal for some people to be gay, just as it is normal for some people to be Chinese. It’s just that for you and I it isn’t normal, and so be it.

    Bullshit, in a more frank time they called “gay” what it really is, perversion. This is what it will always be to anyone who gives a moment of thought to it, instead of mouthing liberal talking points.

    Marriage is between one man and one woman — fine. Civil unions are between two adult people — live with it.

    Yet another liberal strawman, the laws for this have only been around for a few years in most places. why don’t the homos just “live with it” and not try to push their ways as normal?

    What I won’t accept is to be brow-beaten and bullied into considering it perfectly wonderful and no different from anything else. To expand, there are a number of perfectly “straight” sexual practices that I consider “icky” at the very least, and nobody is going to make me change my mind about that either.

    There are things that I’ll never consider normal or particularly palatable, just as there are foods that I will never eat, and trying to pressure me into changing that will achieve nothing except to make me very irritated and annoyed, and I get awfully unpleasant when I’m irritated and annoyed.

    So, in my opinion, it would serve both mine and their interests a whole lot better if they’d keep their private lives out of my face and quit trying to tell me what to think about it. It’s none of my business, and the only result that will ever come from trying to make it my business will be quite disagreeable.

    My thoughts exactly, Emperor. It irritates me that every “minority” has to be shown so much preferance that they can lord it over the majority.

  49. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    Are the laws in Kansas concerning “common law marriage” that much different from the rest of the country?

    Short Answer: yes.
    “Commonlaw Marriage” is unrecognized in many states. In earlier times, when sparse poulations and infrequent visits from itinerent clergy made observing the formalities far more difficlut than it is now, it was far more common to recognize commonlaw marriage as a legitimate state of affairs. If you lived together as husband and wife for a certain period of time, then it was simply accepted as such. I’m sorry, I don’t know the approximate time when the trend started to reverse, but the underlying philosophy was very simple: If you wanted to be Mr. and Mrs. Guido, then you got married. Civil ceremonies were sufficient to make that happen if you weren’t religious, but the state was going to require you to take some steps to achieve the status.

    consulted my attorney and with a few properly completed Powers of Attorney documents (nope he didn’t charge me a dime) I had every conceivable situation covered with Red having all the legal rights, she would enjoy if we were legally married.

    Thus demonstrating exactly how easy it is to obtain the rights that the gay lobby keeps squealing it is denied. BTW, I usually recommend these documents for my married clients anyway, in the horrible eventuality that something might happen to their spouses as well.

    The point is that it is about fweewings, not rights. If they can achieve marriage status or something equivalent, then they can fweeel better about themselves and their choices. Centuries of legal precedent should not be overturned at stomping feet of a vocal minority that wouldn’t have dared try it before the media and the perverse colluded to commence an abolition of shame from our collective society.