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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » And the Most Retarded Defense Counsel Award™ Goes to…
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Scooter Libby’s defense attorney, who somehow allowed this BDS-sufferer to stay on the jury.

We wish you all the best during the appeals process, Scooter, but if we may offer some advice, you might want to push your “counsel” off the nearest tall building and get somebody more qualified. Like, say, a three-toed sloth or a paramecium.

Meanwhile, we’ll try to figure out how one can be guilty of “obstruction of justice” in a matter where:

A) The matter being investigated wasn’t a crime to begin with.

B) The prosecutor knew, even before the investigation began, that the suspect put under oath was innocent of the non-crime.

At any rate, if the appeals fail and Scooter is sentenced, we expect them to use the Sandy Pantsburglar Sentencing Guidelines™. It’s only fair after all. Using those guidelines and keeping in mind that the Pantsburglar was and IS guilty of espionage and theft and destruction of classified national secrets, Scooter should get a $3.25 fine and three minutes of community service.

63 Responses to “And the Most Retarded Defense Counsel Award™ Goes to…”
  1. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Frankly I am going to be some kind of pissed if Bush doesn’t use one of those pardons that he has laying around. If Cheney has any pull at all he best be pushing for it.
    Both of them let Libby get railroaded and it’s the least they can do. This is probably the first thing to happen that has caused me to be severely disappointed in Cheney. I thought he had more balls than to let this happen. :nono_tb: :furious_tb:

  2. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Woot! Foist! :jittery_tb:

  3. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Lemme see now:

    1) No crime was committed to be investigated, because a) Plame was not a covert agent, nor has she been for over 6 years at the time of the Article posted by Mr. Novak; b) had not been out of the country for longer than the 5 year period required by the statute; and c) damn near all of DC knew she was an analyst for the company. She used to BRAG about it to the neighbors, and at PTA meetings; and therefore could not have been covert, by statute.

    2) Libby didn’t leak the name, Richard Armitage did. Armitage did this because he is a loud mouth braggart who can’t keep his mouth closed about what he is getting his wife for her birthday, let alone National Security matters, yet somehow, his is a top-tier State Department official.

    3) Armitage admitted to leaking the name “Plame” to Novak. He did this to Colin Powell, the FBI and the Justice Department, all prior to the REQUEST for a special proscecutor. (btw, Armitage and POWELL between them somehow couldn’t find it in them to grow a set big enough to tell the PRESIDENT that this little kerfluffle was “much ado about nothing” before it comes out in the fucking PAPER that Armitage has been letting Libby flap in the wind. Cowards.)

    4) Our newly minted Special Proscecutor knew Armitage leaked the name “Plame” before he was sworn in. Somehow, beginning an unnecessary investigation is not abuse of power by the proscecutor.

    5) The best evidence available against Mr. Libby is several cases of “He said, she said”. I can’t remember what I had for breakfast some afternoons, and this man (who, btw, has one of the busiest and most thankless jobs in the Country) is convicted of not remembering casual conversations up to two years old. Tim Russert, though, is a perfect, unimpeachable witness.

    Did I miss something, or does this sound like some shit out of a George Orwell novel?

  4. MCPO Airdale Comment by MCPO Airdale

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    Sounds like this “Juror’s” statement is a perfect rationale for an appeal.

  5. Unregistered Comment by Billy Downes

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    This is exactly like something out of Orwell, and it should be seen as a harbinger of things to come. As all of you no doubt know, It will only get worse, especially if the liberal agenda is allowed to march on unabated. The upcoming attempts at gun seizure will be be the litmus test.

    [BTW - this is my second post, I’ll take this occasion to express my appreciation for this place as well as my gratitude to all the gun-loving freedom fighters out there - God bless you all]

  6. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    A possible 25 years for getting who you talked to when a year ago out of order and then pushing that that was lying?

    Hell, I can’t remember the name of the guy I just got off the phone with 15 minutes ago. (And I haven’t had a beer in over 5 days….Maybe that’s the problem. Time to do some research).

  7. Lady Heather Comment by Lady Heather

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    A Big Rottie Hello and Welcome to Billy Downes #5! Hope you stick around here for a while.

    Like Wil, I don’t see what crime has been committed here. In fact, I’m sick and tired of hearing about it.

    Reminds me more of the Soviet Union.

    Frikkin Leftist hypocrites. Are they screaming for the NYT and Sandy Turdburglar’s heads on a silver platter?

    The answer, of course, being *crickets chirping*.

    Anything to advance their agenda.

  8. Unregistered Comment by dasbow

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    Why in the Hell did the defense NOT put Armitage on the stand?

  9. Unregistered Comment by LC Wes, Imperial Mohel

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    I’m thinking that part of the reason the jury voted to convict Libby - and you can chalk this up to his defense counsel, too - was the claim Libby and his lawyers made in opening arguments that Libby was being used as a scapegoat for higher-ups in the Administration. Not only did this play into Patrick Fitzgerald’s nakedly political prosecution of Libby (Fitzgerald made no secret that his ultimate target was Dick Cheney), but it also likely helped convince the jury that Libby was perfectly willing to perjure himself, if only to save his own personal ass.

    It didn’t help that the trial was taking place in Washington, DC - where Democrats outnumber Republicans five to one - and that Denis Collins likely wasn’t the only BDS victim on the jury. No doubt his lawyers should have pushed for a change of venue, instead of trying to appeal to the…liberal…sensitivities of the jury by painting Libby as another victim of the BushCheneyHaliburton regime. (Their strategy worked to an extent; Collins expressed sympathy for Libby…just not enough for him and his fellow jurors to let Libby off Fitzgerald’s hook.)

    No doubt all of these issues - including Fitzgerald’s knowledge from the start that Richard Armitage was actually the leaker of Valarie Plame’s name and position at CIA, and that no crime had actually been committed becaue Plame was not actually legally “covert” - will be addressed on appeal. And perhaps the appeals court will also address the memory issues that all of Fitzgerald’s witnesses had, particularly Tim Russert (who may himself have tried to mislead the FBI as to what and when he knew about Plame). So this case isn’t over by a long shot…and it’s very possible that Bush might just pardon Libby on his way out the door in January, 2009, if only as a parting shot to the Democrats.

  10. Unregistered Comment by LC Wes, Imperial Mohel

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    And here’s another possibility, which ties into my prior post: perhaps Libby did lie to Fitzgerald’s investigators to save his own hide, and the jury recognized it.

    John Hinderaker over at Powerline wrote today of the Libby conviction:

    The whole Libby affair remains something of a mystery. President Bush ordered all executive branch personnel to cooperate with the Fitzgerald investigation. Other people, apparently including Dick Cheney, told investigators that they had discussed Wilson and Plame with Libby. It’s hard to understand why Libby’s testimony was so out of step with that of the other Executive Branch witnesses. (Emphasis mine - LC Wes.) At the end of the day, imperfect memory seemed as good an explanation as any. But the jury didn’t see it that way.

    “Imperfect memory?” Yes, that is a plausible explanation. Another, equally plausible explanation is that Libby is just a weasel who was looking out for Number One, and, unable to successfully lie himself out of an indictment, tried to claim that the Adminstration was throwing him to the wolves in order to cover itself…even while the Administration was cooperating with Fitzgerald’s bogus investigation.

    Remember, Scooter Libby was Marc Rich’s lawyer, and secured a pardon for the absolutely corrupt Rich from the Clintons. So he’s not necessarily a total innocent here…even granted that Fitzgerald’s prosecution was malicious and unjust, and his claims of an Adminstration “plot” against the Wilsons is totally bogus.

    Yes, the jury may well be politically tainted, and have a poor understanding of just constitutes “reasonable doubt”…but they also may have been right that Libby perjured himself, as far as it goes.

  11. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    I don’t know how many peremptory challenges each counsel gets in this jurisdiction. This wackjob maybe tame compared to who might have been tossed.

    On a more cynical note, this is what happens when you leave your fate in the hands of people obviously not smart enough to get out of jury duty.

  12. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    Interesting that DC’s trendiest cocktail party guests…aka joe and valerie…have already sold the movie rights to their sordid story. These people make me sick, they’re publicity whores of the first magnitude.

    Now I’m not sure about this, but she wasn’t an “agent” like the media plays her up to be, she was just a high level paper pusher wasn’t she?

    Oh….and another thing, he was convicted of obstruction, perjury, and making false statements right? When Clinton was impeached for the same things, he was made into a martyr….my oh my, how times have changed.
    BlackisWhite sez:

    On a more cynical note, this is what happens when you leave your fate in the hands of people obviously not smart enough to get out of jury duty.

    Heh, good one man….is it golfing season yet???

  13. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    So you pick ONE juror that voted to convict Scooter, but forget that there were 10 other jurors who reached the same conclusion.

    Scooter only needed one juror to think he was innocent, whereas the prosecution had to convince the FULL jury — and aparently he did.

    If there wasn’t a crime committed, why then did Scooter feel the need to lie? All he had to do was tell the truth and he wouldn’t have found himself in the position that he is in now.

    But hey, Scooter will never spend a day in jail. He will drag the appeal process out for the next two years and Bush will pardon him as he leaves office.

  14. Trooper THX1138 Comment by Trooper THX1138

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    Gotta say, I doubt it. Will Scooter do time in a max-security pen? Doubt it. More like Club Fed. Time will probably be served concurrently (unless the judge decides to really stick it to the administration). But as to a pardon? I have my doubts about Bush pardoning him. Everyone involved (directly and indirectly) had plenty of opportunities to iron this out and never chose to. Why would Bush do so now, when it would slam him even harder? He wants to make nicey-nice with the dems on the other end of the street, after all.

    Justice system: Thank you sir, may I please have another?

  15. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    So you pick ONE juror that voted to convict Scooter, but forget that there were 10 other jurors who reached the same conclusion.

    It only takes one very convincing juror to sway any number of knuckledraggers, you know. But you’re right if you suggest that I’m speculating here, because I am. For all that I know, they could all have been staunch individualists unable to be swayed by a silver-tongued journalist and author with an axe to grind.

    What I DO know is that, based on his history and his statements afterwards, they might as well have put Joe and Valerie on the jury.

    If there wasn’t a crime committed, why then did Scooter feel the need to lie?

    How do you know that he lied? Seriously? The issue here is whether or not he remembered a conversation or, rather, two conversations two weeks apart, from two years ago and the correct sequence in which he had them.

    I’ve got pretty good memory, but if you were to ask me who I talked to, what sequence I talked to them and exactly what was said two years ago, I’d be hard pushed to give you an answer.

    His biggest mistake was to try to cooperate and give an answer in the first place. I’d have told them, truthfully, that there was no fucking way I could remember that sort of thing accurately.

    But Fitzgerald knew that Libby wasn’t the leaker before he was sworn in to conduct the investigation and everybody knew that Valerie Plame wasn’t a “covert agent” and thus no crime was committed in the first place, no matter who “leaked” it.

  16. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    But as to a pardon? I have my doubts about Bush pardoning him.

    So do I. Still, it’s possible. After all, Scooter wasn’t found guilty of offending Jorge’s Mexican constituency by enforcing the laws of our nation.

  17. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    On a more cynical note, this is what happens when you leave your fate in the hands of people obviously not smart enough to get out of jury duty.

    Want to get out of it…”Well being he’s a (pick one….black, purple, Republican, anarchist…), he’s probably guilty, and if he wasn’t then the cops wouldn’t have arrested (him/her/it) would they?”

  18. DдrтH бдкфи Comment by DдrтH бдкфи

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    Bush will pardon him as he leaves office

    Nice attempt at a bomb-toss, DJ…

    But just for shits and giggles, I’ll play a little round of Librul Tu Quoque with you, seeing your bet and raising- how many Scooter Libbys would it take to equal one Marc Rich?

    You opened the door, pal…

    As far as him “dragging” the appeals process out, what’s your beef with the appeals process? Surely Leonard Peltier and Mumia Abu Jamal have been entitled to appeals- why then such contempt for Scooter’s rights?

    Oh, that’s right…

    .

  19. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    As for the pardon, if something doesn’t happen on appeal or in a new trial, I believe he’ll get a pardon as Bush leaves office. Bush just doesn’t want the flack of appearing to interfere with the judicial system while he’s still vulnerable and have to deal with that for two years.

    As to my post above (#6), I got off work, went home, had 2 beers…the guys name was Steve.

    Yeah, beer!! :clap_tb:

    (and where’d the drunk smiley guys go?) :guns_tb:

  20. DдrтH бдкфи Comment by DдrтH бдкфи

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    (and where’d the drunk smiley guys go?)

    The liberals got ‘em! :LOL:

  21. Unregistered Comment by boswell

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    Phew! That’s over. Now I hope you will continue your stellar work, by getting back to your exposure of our country’s woeful handinling of our wounded troops at Walter Reed. It’s your posts on topics like this which constantly remind one that unlike the loony lefties, our side support the troops!

  22. DдrтH бдкфи Comment by DдrтH бдкфи

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    “Our” country, Boswell?

    “Ours”?

    I wasn’t aware Walter Reed had been relocated to Manitoba, or wherever you snow-shoed in from to post your little dribbling.

    How about you get back to minding your country’s woeful handling of situations like the Khadr family, and the other jihadists you give shelter to, before you swish your way in here thinking you’re going to drop turds on the carpet?

    As long as you’re going to attempt to Astroturf on someone else’s territory, which other “grassroots” issues do you have to peddle today?

    Just one more example of how you disgusting little leftist slimebags only notice that servicemembers are being wounded when the issue serves as a cudgel with which to bash America, and the World’s Ultimate Bogeyman, Chimpy McBu$Hitler.

    How very rational, reasonable, and well thought- through your postitions are.

    Now strap your ice skates on, and piss off back to Canada, you maple-sucking puck-slapper.

    In other words, take off, eh?

  23. juandos Comment by juandos

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    Judge rejects Libby memory expert testimony

    The judge making this ruling, “Reggie B. Walton” is a George W Bush appointee from Oct. of ‘01…

    Libby’s two lead attorneys are William Jeffress Jr. of Baker-Botts and Theodore V. Wells Jr. of Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP…

    So these two heavy hitters, two legal eagles both from legal outfits that swing some serious weight in Washington D.C. couldn’t get this case thrown out at the beginnging?!?!

    These two high priced legal talents couldn’t get a libtard asshat like Denis Collins thrown off the jury before the first gavel fell?

    Who’s kidding who?

    I’m thinking ambulance chasers like Schumer or Edwards could’ve done a better job…

  24. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Why would Bush do so now, when it would slam him even harder? He wants to make nicey-nice with the dems on the other end of the street, after all.

    He wouldn’t do it NOW, he would wait until the end of his term, when it wouldn’t matter to him.

    Remember Clinton pardoning Marc Rich? It raised a huge stink from the GOP, but it never really hurt Clinton.

    Reagan pardoned several controversial people himself who were convicted during his tenure.

    For all that I know, they could all have been staunch individualists unable to be swayed by a silver-tongued journalist and author with an axe to grind.

    The way our justice system is set up, it is far easier to aquit a guilty person than it is to convict an innocent one. Both sides are allowed to pick and choose the jurors and challenge those they feel might be detremental to their side. The defense only needs to find one juror they feel will not be swayed by the prosecution’s argument from a pool of over 100 prospects. It’s about as fair as you can get it.

  25. Kristopher Comment by Kristopher

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    Well … grand juries just became useless.

    The proper response to all question now should be silence.

    If you can be prosecuted for not having a perfect memory, then the fifth would now apply to all grand jury testimony. Get immunity, or stay silent.

  26. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    The way our justice system is set up, it is far easier to aquit a guilty person than it is to convict an innocent one. Both sides are allowed to pick and choose the jurors and challenge those they feel might be detremental to their side. The defense only needs to find one juror they feel will not be swayed by the prosecution’s argument from a pool of over 100 prospects. It’s about as fair as you can get it.

    Normally, I’d agree with you, but in here in bizaro world, we have juries who decide to let guilty people walk if it satisfies their sense of racial justice (OJ, anyone?), so why would we assume the process is immune from political bias, especially when a juror is mouthing off like this?

    is it golfing season yet???

    Just about, my friend, just about.

  27. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    DJ sez:

    But hey, Scooter will never spend a day in jail. He will drag the appeal process out for the next two years and Bush will pardon him as he leaves office.

    or get probation like the pants stuffer sandy berger. Then again, he’ll probably sign a book deal like his partner in the SAME crimes bill clinton…..

  28. Unregistered Comment by hundred6

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    Judge Walton read the query sheet I’d marked earlier.

    You know someone on the prospective witness list?

    (Remainder snipped for brevity.)

    [You are not going to waste the Emperor’s expensive bandwidth in this fashion, son.

    Either post a link with a brief snippet, or don’t post at all.

    If you try this again, your access will be yanked posthaste.  And if you don’t believe us, try us.

    Read & heed, chump.  -The Management™]

  29. Unregistered Comment by Billy Downes

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    Thank you for the gracious welcome Lady Heather! I believe I will stick around this place.

    Several persons mentioned whether Bush will pardon Libby or not; of course he should. I would not be shocked, but I would be surprised if he did, however. Bush is, as we all know by now, far from a conservative and I believe that if the BDS whad not taken flight the liberals would find much more in common with the clown (open borders, utopian beliefs, relatively weak will) than would members of the true right.

  30. BITOA Comment by BITOA

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    Sordid the episode is, but not because of anything Libby did. And “a troubling picture” of Washington it is-but not of this Administration.
    The Bush crowd is guilty only of terminal naiveté and the foolish idea that high standards of probity will ever beat the opposition’s utter unscrupulousness and willingness to misuse the legal system to their own partisan ends, even if it means the ruination of an innocent and capable man and enormous hardship to his family.
    Democrats and the Media, I Call for Justice.

    Clarice Feldman is an attorney in Washington, DC, who has covered the Libby Trial for American Thinker.

    THERE WILL BE A PAYBACK !

  31. LC Guido Cabrone Comment by LC Guido Cabrone

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    Scooter Libby’s defense attorney, who somehow allowed this BDS-sufferer to stay on the jury.

    Unless they left him there deliberately, expecting him to make the statements that he has, so as to make the chances of getting it “mistrialed” better?

    Any thoughts on that line, BlackisWhite?

  32. Radical Redneck Comment by Radical Redneck

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    OT: Shocking News! Muslims outraged!!!!

  33. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Well … grand juries just became useless.

    Spoken by someone who doesn’t have a bit of understanding of the criminal court.

    The Grand Jury didn’t hear this case. Grand Juries are empaneled to hear evidence to determine whether a crime has been committed, and whether there is enough evidence and probable cause against a person to issue an indictment to charge a person with a crime.

    Typically, there is no cross examination in a Grand Jury — the prosecutor presents a case, and the Grand Jury issues summons and calls for witnesses.

    If you can be prosecuted for not having a perfect memory, then the fifth would now apply to all grand jury testimony. Get immunity, or stay silent.

    Did Clinton ever say, “I don’t recall having sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinski”?

    Maybe instead of the classic “I’m innocent”, the two million inmates currently incarcerated in our prisons should have used the “I Don’t Remember” defense. Nobody would be in prison today.

    Libby got convicted because he lied and he obstructed an investigation.

    Many of you here try to say that no underlying crime had been committed, so the charges against Scooter Libby are bogus. The reality is, that Fitzgerald was appointed special prosecutor to determine whether a crime had been committed and by whom, but as he explained in the indictment, he was unable to because he was being obstructed and lied to by Libby:

    Without the truth, our criminal justice system cannot serve our nation or its citizens. The requirement to tell the truth applies equally to all citizens, including persons who hold high positions in government. In an investigation concerning the compromise of a CIA officer’s identity, it is especially important that grand jurors learn what really happened. The indictment returned today alleges that the efforts of the grand jury to investigate such a leak were obstructed when Mr. Libby lied about how and when he learned and subsequently disclosed classified information about Valerie Wilson [Plame].

    Libby was charged with five crimes. All eleven jurors could decide on four of them, and there was one hold-out on the fifth. (one juror was dismissed)

    Several persons mentioned whether Bush will pardon Libby or not; of course he should.

    I know more than a few Liberals who are praying Bush does just that — the sooner the better. But it won’t happen until the end of Bush’s term.

    Then there is the speculation that Cheney’s “blood clot” was a precurser to his resignation following the outcome of the Libby conviction. It is still quite possible that Libby might puddle-up and cry all over the place, giving up all sorts of people in exchange for a lighter sentence.

    By Libby taking his case to trial, he loses the chance of reducing his sentence by a substantial amount for “acceptance of responsibility”. In fact, under the Sentencing Guidelines, they actually add points for not accepting responsibility.

    He will receive a concurrent sentence, but because he now has four convictions, he will be sentenced with an offender score of “6″ — the highest on the matrix. (this is different from Berger, who only had one minor count, pled guilty, and therefore could get probation.)

  34. Beth* A. Comment by Beth* A.

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    I’ve served on two juries ( :huh_tb: yes, I know, I know. The first time was as a poor college student, and the other time it was inventory time at the store - happy to miss THAT for once. Besides, the whole process IS fascinating) I can tell you for a fact that one person can potentially screw up the whole decision-making process! We had a female who was an embittered ex-wife of a policeman, and we no sooner reached the Jury room to sit down to begin the start of our deliberation when she informed us that ‘no way the police were right about ANYTHING and she would not ever vote to convict! Prior to that statement, butter wouldn’t have melted in her mouth.

    It took some real shouting, and eventually, two voices of reason ( a scientist and a business man stepped up to bat) to convince her there were such things as ‘facts’ that had nothing whatsoever to do with her enduring need to figuratively put the screws to her ex-husband via THIS CASE!

    Absolutely amazing. Like watching a train wreck. Having seen that I realize we need the people ‘not too stupid to get off of jury duty’ to show up and represent, so that justice does actually find its way to the outcomes.

  35. LC Guido Cabrone Comment by LC Guido Cabrone

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    Radical Redneck

    My money shot from that little article…

    The 11-year-old girl, Asmahan Mansour, was ordered off the field by a Muslim referee

    And yet,”The Canadian Council on American-Islam Relations” is going to sue the FIFA???

    W?T?F?!

  36. JanetMae Comment by JanetMae

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    this trial is looking more interesting by the minute

    This should have been a mistrial.

  37. juandos Comment by juandos

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    DJ says:

    Grand Juries are empaneled to hear evidence to determine whether a crime has been committed, and whether there is enough evidence and probable cause against a person to issue an indictment to charge a person with a crime

    Hence Kristopher’s comment, “Well … grand juries just became useless” is bang on target…

    To find enough evidence here to bring an indictment took imagination…

    I mean Armitage confessed in October 2003 and Libby was indicted in October of 2005 so what was the point of Fitzgerald continuing?

  38. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    I mean Armitage confessed in October 2003 and Libby was indicted in October of 2005 so what was the point of Fitzgerald continuing?

    As I stated above, Fitzgerald was appointed Special Prosecutor to determine a) whether a crime was committed; and b) if so, who committed it.

    This trial wasn’t about either of those two points, it was about Scooter Libby lying and impeding an investigation.

    The question in this case was what did Scooter Libby know, when did he know it, from whom did he learn it, and who did he tell.

    It is obvious he was protecting someone, and he threw himself up as a baricade to the fact-finding mission that Fitgerald was appointed to do. Why else would his defense include the following:

    “Karl Rove had to be protected. The one to be sacrificed was Scooter Libby.” Wells’ voice rises in anger. It wasn’t the Vice President’s office that made him the scapegoat. Libby himself told Wells, “People in the White House are trying to set me up.”

    Juandos, the Grand Jury doesn’t decide guilt, they only look for whether a crime has been committed, and whether it is possible that a particular person committed the act. The rest is left up to another jury in an actual court setting.

    Would you have rather had Fitzgerald charge Scooter by Information? (There are two ways to formally bring charges of a crime against a person. In the Federal system, a case is presented to a Grand Jury for an indictment. But another way is for the prosecutor to “File by Information” based solely on information provided by law enforcement agencies.)

    The Federal court system is more deliberative and formal than state courts, and very few convictions are overturned because of the many layers of safeguards and deliberations.

  39. juandos Comment by juandos

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    Geez! DJ your comment: “As I stated above, Fitzgerald was appointed Special Prosecutor to determine a) whether a crime was committed; and b) if so, who committed it.

    This trial wasn’t about either of those two points, it was about Scooter Libby lying and impeding an investigation” is COMPLETE NONSENSE assumming what CNN reported is factual, an always questionable proposition…

    “A CIA officer’s name was blown, and there was a leak, and we needed to figure out how that happened, who did it, why, whether a crime was committed, whether we could prove it, whether we should prove it,” he said

  40. Unregistered Comment by boswell

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    How about you get back to minding your country’s woeful handling of situations like the Khadr family, and the other jihadists you give shelter to, before you swish your way in here thinking you’re going to drop turds on the carpet?

    Poor Darth Whatever is obviously used to looking at the world with blinkers on. It has obviously not occured to him that some Americans actually live outside the country for a variety of reasons. Some permanently, others like me, temporarily. Of course, anyone with a modicum of reasoning ability would have considered that possibility. Some people are so parochial.

  41. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    This trial wasn’t about either of those two points, it was about Scooter Libby lying and impeding an investigation” is COMPLETE NONSENSE assumming what CNN reported is factual, an always questionable proposition…

    Uh, since you were too lazy to read the explanation of the charges against Libby in that article, I will post them here:

    Count one: Obstruction of justice
    Alleges that Libby intentionally deceived the grand jury about how he learned, and “disclosed to the media,” information about Valerie Plame Wilson’s employment by the CIA.

    Verdict: Guilty

    Obstruction of justice is interference in one of the three branches of government. It can include improperly influencing a juror, stealing or altering a record and obstructing a criminal investigation.

    He was found guilty of obstructing a criminal investigation. Whether there was a crime or not is immaterial. The investigation was to determine IF there was a crime committed, and if so, who did it. Fitzgerald was being prevented from determining either because Libby was obstructing that investigation.

    Count two: Making a false statement
    Alleges that Libby intentionally gave FBI agents false information about a conversation he had with NBC’s Tim Russert regarding Valerie Plame Wilson, who is married to Joseph Wilson.

    Verdict: Guilty

    This crime covers activities that might not be illegal if not for associated false statements. To convict on a false statement charge, prosecutors must prove the defendant willfully lied or concealed a fact.

    I think that is pretty self-explanatory.

    Count three: Making a false statement
    Alleges that Libby knowingly gave the FBI false information about what he had told reporter Matt Cooper of Time magazine regarding Valerie Plame Wilson.

    Verdict: Not guilty

    This crime covers activities that might not be illegal if not for associated false statements. To convict on a false statement charge, prosecutors must prove the defendant willfully lied or concealed a fact.

    This was the only charge that Libby beat. The prosecutor could only convince eleven of the twelve jurors, but that one was able to hold out enough for the rest to decide to acquit Libby on that charge.

    Count four: Perjury
    Alleges that Libby knowingly provided false testimony in court about a conversation he had with Russert.

    Verdict: Guilty

    Perjury is willfully or knowingly making false statements under oath. The sworn statements may be written or oral and need not be made in court. They may be made in a deposition or in written testimony. To be convicted, prosecutors must prove the accused intended to give a false statement. Making a mistake does not constitute perjury. Also, a person can be convicted of perjury if it can be proven he or she gave contradictory statements. It is not necessary to prove which statement was false.

    We impeached Clinton for exactly the same charge — both lied under oath in front of a Grand Jury. You were outraged when Clinton did it.

    Count five: Perjury
    Alleges that Libby knowingly provided false testimony in court about his conversation with reporters regarding Valerie Plame Wilson’s CIA employment.

    Verdict: Guilty

    Perjury is willfully or knowingly making false statements under oath. The sworn statements may be written or oral and need not be made in court. They may be made in a deposition or in written testimony. To be convicted, prosecutors must prove the accused intended to give a false statement. Making a mistake does not constitute perjury. Also, a person can be convicted of perjury if it can be proven he or she gave contradictory statements. It is not necessary to prove which statement was false.

    Fitgerald was investigating a possible crime and Libby was preventing him from doing that. So Libby was charged because of his actions in the investigation, NOT for his actions in the alledged leak itself.

    It was Libby’s defense that tried to say that Libby was being scapegoated by Rove and the rest of the administration — including Cheney.

    Libby: White House sacrificed him for Rove

    Top White House officials tried to blame vice presidential aide “Scooter” Libby for the 2003 leak of a CIA operative’s identity to protect President Bush’s political strategist, Karl Rove, Libby’s defense attorney said Tuesday as his perjury trial began and the first witness took the stand.

    I. Lewis Libby is accused of lying to FBI agents, who began investigating after syndicated columnist Robert Novak revealed that a chief Bush administration critic, Joseph Wilson, was married to CIA operative Valerie Plame.

    When the leak investigation was launched, White House officials cleared Rove of wrongdoing but stopped short of doing so for Libby. Libby, who had been asked to counter Wilson’s criticisms, felt betrayed and sought out his boss, Vice President Dick Cheney, Wells said.

    “They’re trying to set me up. They want me to be the sacrificial lamb,” attorney Theodore Wells said, recalling Libby’s end of the conversation. “I will not be sacrificed so Karl Rove can be protected.”

    White House infighting
    Rove was one of two sources for Novak’s story. The other was then-Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. Nobody, including Rove and Armitage, has been charged with the leak. Libby is accused of lying to investigators and obstructing the probe into the leak.

    Cheney’s notes from that meeting underscore Libby’s concern, Wells said.

    “Not going to protect one staffer and sacrifice the guy that was asked to stick his neck in the meat grinder,” the note said, according to Wells.

    The description of the White House infighting was a rare glimpse into the secretive workings of Bush’s inner circle. It also underscores how hectic and stressful the White House had become when the probe was launched. [emphasis mine]

    It looks like Scooter was trying to run interferance for Cheney and then got bit on the ass when the administration hung him out on a limb to dry.

  42. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    DJ sez:

    It looks like Scooter was trying to run interferance for Cheney and then got bit on the ass when the administration hung him out on a limb to dry.

    Not like that didn’t happen in the glorious reign of his predecessor

    The Legacy

  43. Mike M Comment by Mike M

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    It looks like Scooter was trying to run interferance for Cheney and then got bit on the ass when the administration hung him out [on a limb] to dry.

    Can’t speak for the veracity of it, but that sentence is a metaphoric masterpiece - extra points, even, for combining two into one. You will, however, have to surrender yourself to your pal, JT, for your spelling transgression.

  44. Unregistered Comment by boswell

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    We impeached Clinton for exactly the same charge — both lied under oath in front of a Grand Jury. You were outraged when Clinton did it.

    Er, small point. Clinton was found not guilty. That’s not just a semantic difference. That Clinton lied under oath is a matter of opinion not fact as you imply. And a sufficiently tenuous opinion in that a large majority of the Senate did not share it, including nine Republicans.

  45. juandos Comment by juandos

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    DJ says:

    We impeached Clinton for exactly the same charge — both lied under oath in front of a Grand Jury.

    No actually I was outraged that what passes for my fellow voters were stupid enough to reelect the greasy, oath breaking weasel to another round of defiling the Oval Office…

    All your explanation DJ for as good as it is (it really is too!) still doesn’t explain why Fitgerald plodded on other than there was apparently political agenda at work here…

    (http://www.townhall.com/blog/g/db440b1c-ff3c-4e95-8661-5af0419b61d7)

    (which for some damned silly reason the Townhall blog doesn’t link here)

    Dean Barnnet makes the pertinent observation, “And yet there’s something about this case that still strikes me as unsettling and unnerving. For political reasons, the purportedly aggrieved parties of Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame got their own private prosecutor whose entire job was to make sure someone went to jail because of the scandal in which the Wilsons were the featured players. Even as the main charges turned out to be unfounded or at the very least un-provable, an undeterred Fitzgerald fought on, determined to get someone, anyone, thrown in jail”…

  46. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Not like that didn’t happen in the glorious reign of his predecessor

    Or in the history of politics either.

    Er, small point. Clinton was found not guilty. That’s not just a semantic difference. That Clinton lied under oath is a matter of opinion not fact as you imply. And a sufficiently tenuous opinion in that a large majority of the Senate did not share it, including nine Republicans.

    I recall that Bill Clinton entered into a plea agreement with Ken Starr, where he was allowed to plead guilty to a misdemeanor. But it still doesn’t detract from what I was saying in the first place: When Clinton lied, the Right-wing went ballistic.

    All your explanation DJ for as good as it is (it really is too!) still doesn’t explain why Fitgerald plodded on other than there was apparently political agenda at work here…

    Because that was what he was appointed to do by the Justice Department? John Ashcroft recused himself and the then-Deputy Attorney General James Comey appointed Fitzgerald to look into the case to determine the facts.

    It isn’t like there is any shortage of work that Patrick Fitzgerald could have been doing.

    If Scooter had been upfront in the beginning, it is likely that the entire episode would have closed with no indictments or trial. Sure, the facts would have been potentially embarrassing to the administration, but that’s about it.

    For political reasons, the purportedly aggrieved parties of Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame got their own private prosecutor whose entire job was to make sure someone went to jail because of the scandal in which the Wilsons were the featured players.

    Substitute ‘Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame’ with Paula Jones, ‘Fitzgerald’ with Kenneth Starr, and ‘jail’ with impeachment.

    While not exact, it is quite similar.

    It could be argued that if Scooter Libby hadn’t lied and obstructed the investigation, Bush might have lost the election in 2004 — or at least the potential would have been there, and maybe that was what was going on in the minds of the administration at the time.

  47. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

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    When Clinton lied, the Right-wing went ballistic.

    That might possibly be because he did.  And it was clear to everyone that he did, even the Demoscum.  Hell, their big line was “It was just about SEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX!!!!!!”

    (Incidentally, the only reason Der Kaiser wasn’t removed from office is because we didn’t have 60 senators with sufficient quantities of spine.  It had nothing to do with his guilt, and you damned well know it.)

    On the other hand, three hours prior to this travesty of justice, the jury wasn’t even convinced Libby had done anything wrong - this half-assed gaggle of goombahs was asking the judge what Scooter was being charged with.  So it’s not like it’s a cut-and-dried case to anyone except Donktards and 12 faggots (dammit, where’s that purchase order for those offsets?) on DC jury, one of which wanted to know why they weren’t going after Rove - oh, yeah, there’s a bastion of fairness for you.

    Sorry, Dave, you can’t spin this one.

    It could be argued that if Scooter Libby hadn’t lied and obstructed the investigation, Bush might have lost the election in 2004

    It could - if someone wanted to look like a damnfool.  But yeah, it could.

    That Clinton lied under oath is a matter of opinion not fact as you imply.

    Bullshit, dumbfuck.  The only reason Clintoon wasn’t removed is that there were too many fuckheads in the Senate who were thinking with their ass like you do.

  48. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    That might possibly be because he did. And it was clear to everyone that he did, even the Demoscum. Hell, their big line was “It was just about SEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX!!!!!!”

    Regardless of the parsing of what “is” is, and what it was he was lying about, he did lie under oath. Most people — Republicans and Democrats know and understand this.

    Clinton lied about having sex with a woman other than his wife — something most men would do if confronted with having an affair. It wasn’t illegal — just stupid, and most people in this country didn’t want Clinton to be impeached for his indiscretion.

    Clinton did not escape unscathed for his lying though. He did enter into a plea bargain with Ken Starr where he pled to two misdemeanors.

    Scooter Libby probably could have entered into a plea agreement with Patrick Fitzgerald and avoided all of this too. But that would have probably meant he would have had to give up certain embarrassing information that the Administration didn’t want out there.

    Embarrassing doesn’t always have to mean illegal, but embarrassing could easily cost elections.

    On the other hand, three hours prior to this travesty of justice, the jury wasn’t even convinced Libby had done anything wrong - this half-assed gaggle of goombahs was asking the judge what Scooter was being charged with.

    Actually, they were wondering why the other players hadn’t been charged with a crime. The recognized that Libby was the scapegoat. They knew he had committed a crime and they voted to convict based on the evidence. They only hung on the one count.

    At least one juror is now saying that although he was guilty, he should be pardoned by Bush:

    Redington told MSNBC’s “Hardball” yesterday that jurors had to convict Libby based on the evidence - but said she cried when their guilty verdicts were read Tuesday.

    “I think he got caught in a difficult situation where he got caught in the initial lie and it just snowballed,” she said.

    Asked if she favored a pardon, she said, “Yeah. It kind of bothers me that there was this whole big crime being investigated and he got caught up in the investigation as opposed to in the actual crime that was supposedly committed.”

    “I would like him to get” a pardon, she added.

    I didn’t know this, but Bush has issued less pardons than any other President in modern history — and has followed the Department of Justice Pardon guidelines up until now. But guidelines are just that — guidelines. Bush doesn’t have to follow them. If there is going to be a pardon, it will happen sometime after the 2008 election, just prior to leaving office. All Libby has to do is tie his case up in court for the next twenty months, and it looks like he will do just that.

    Libby will not get a new trial — regardless of the “grounds-bombs” that his attorney inserted into the trial. (Every trial attorney purposely salts the trial with possible “grounds” they can call upon if the trial goes bad for them.

    As far as and appeal, it isn’t impossible, but statistically, it is unlikely.

    His sentencing guidelines show that he is looking at between 16 and 37 months in prison, which could be substantially reduced only if he goes to Fitzgerald and agrees to cooperate.

  49. Unregistered Comment by boswell

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    Bullshit, dumbfuck. The only reason Clintoon wasn’t removed is that there were too many fuckheads in the Senate who were thinking with their ass like you do.

    Your rather silly epithets simply don’t alter the fact that Clinton was aquitted of lying by a senate with a Reublican majority and Libby was convicted of lying by a jury of the American public. Attempting to equate the two is the mark of a logical defficiency.

  50. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

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    Your rather silly epithets simply don’t alter the fact that Clinton was aquitted of lying by a senate with a Reublican majority and Libby was convicted of lying by a jury of the American public. Attempting to equate the two is the mark of a logical defficiency.

    Here’s a suggestion, little Canorkian pussbag:

    If it is your desire to make an attempt at sounding like an erudite, elitist, mucous-filled-nose-high-in-the-air type in a pathetic, half-assed attempt to demonstrate that you possess a superior intellect to mine…

    …may I suggest that it would greatly behoove you to learn and master the fine art of spelling.

    You can go back to humping your moose now, fuckface.

    Regardless of the parsing of what “is” is, and what it was he was lying about, he did lie under oath. Most people — Republicans and Democrats know and understand this.

    This Repubican doesn’t.  I’m pretty sure the Republican owner of this site doesn’t.  No self-respecting conservative I know of - i.e, one who hasn’t bent over and dropped trou  in a lame attempt to get a Demoscum to like him - “know[s] and understand[s] this”.

    You and the Lame Stream Midiots™ can pull the Goebbels act all you want, Dave, but those of us who know better ain’t buyin’.

  51. LC Guido Cabrone Comment by LC Guido Cabrone

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    Uh, Spats? He was talkin’ about Clintoon in that last quote you blocked…

  52. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

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    He was talkin’ about Clintoon in that last quote you blocked…

    Didn’t seem that way to me, though I could have read it wrong.

    Wouldn’t be the first time.

  53. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Dave: Couple of minor points:

    Many of you here try to say that no underlying crime had been committed, so the charges against Scooter Libby are bogus. The reality is, that Fitzgerald was appointed special prosecutor to determine whether a crime had been committed and by whom, but as he explained in the indictment, he was unable to because he was being obstructed and lied to by Libby:

    No, the charges arean’t bogus because they are against Lewis Libby. Please look up at my post @ #3 on this thread. The charges are bogus because there is NO DAMN REASON that there should have been an investigation in the first place. There was no crime involved in “outing” Plame, and the “guilty” party who outed her was known PRIOR to Fitzgerald being appointed - The FBI and Justice Department BOTH knew that Armitagfe was the big mouth before anyone ASKED for a Special Prosecutor. Therefore, Fitzgerald, under political pressure to produce something, started grasping for straws.

    I mean Armitage confessed in October 2003 and Libby was indicted in October of 2005 so what was the point of Fitzgerald continuing?

    As I stated above, Fitzgerald was appointed Special Prosecutor to determine a) whether a crime was committed; and b) if so, who committed it.

    The answer to both questions was known before he was sworn in. Libby was the only head associated with the Administration that this political animal could produce. End of story.

    =========================

    The correct answer to ANY question from a lawyer is either “I plead the fifth,” or a simple “Fuck You,” from this point on. Fitzgerald had, at most, he said she said. Remember nothing, say nothing, admit nothing, and take your chances. Make the bastards prove it without your help.

  54. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Well, that used to work! Thatr should have been two nested block quotes encompasing:

    I mean Armitage confessed in October 2003 and Libby was indicted in October of 2005 so what was the point of Fitzgerald continuing?

    nested at the top of

    As I stated above, Fitzgerald was appointed Special Prosecutor to determine a) whether a crime was committed; and b) if so, who committed it.

    Diferrent versions of WordPress, care and feeding of, gets confusing to old farts who learned this crap on a manual typewriter…

  55. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    This Repubican doesn’t. I’m pretty sure the Republican owner of this site doesn’t. No self-respecting conservative I know of - i.e, one who hasn’t bent over and dropped trou in a lame attempt to get a Demoscum to like him - “know[s] and understand[s] this”.

    Did you misread what I said?

    I said, most people KNOW Clinton lied under oath. (try to read it a little closer, where I said “regardless of [enter excuse or explanation here]…” :wink_ee:

    You and the Lame Stream Midiots™ can pull the Goebbels act all you want, Dave, but those of us who know better ain’t buyin’.

    The Goebbels act? You mean that if you repeat something long enough it becomes ‘fact’? Gee, I never see any of that here…

    Uh, Spats? He was talkin’ about Clintoon in that last quote you blocked…

    Yessir, I was.

    Didn’t seem that way to me, though I could have read it wrong.

    Wouldn’t be the first time.

    I apologize for using the non-Liberal talking point to throw you off. I think I’ve mentioned a few times that I am not a cookie-cutter Liberal. I do venture off the reservation from time-to-time — usually to pursue common sense.

    And like everyone else, I do tend to make mistakes every now and then.

    No, the charges arean’t bogus because they are against Lewis Libby. Please look up at my post @ #3 on this thread. The charges are bogus because there is NO DAMN REASON that there should have been an investigation in the first place.

    Anytime there is an allegation that there might be a violation of the law, there should be an investigation — at the very least to clear up the allegation.

    We spent eight long years investigating the Clintons with allegation after allegation — most of them going nowhere. Now all of a sudden you don’t want to investigate allegations of wrong-doing?

    Investigations can not only prove wrong-doing, they can also disprove them too. But if you attempt to hamper an investigation through lying and obstruction, then you’ve committed another crime. That is what Libby was convicted of.

    There was no crime involved in “outing” Plame, and the “guilty” party who outed her was known PRIOR to Fitzgerald being appointed - The FBI and Justice Department BOTH knew that Armitagfe was the big mouth before anyone ASKED for a Special Prosecutor. Therefore, Fitzgerald, under political pressure to produce something, started grasping for straws.

    You tend to focus only on Valarie Plame here without taking into consideration that she was the tip of the ice berg. Forget for a moment the argument that she was or wasn’t a NOC or under cover or not. She was working a CIA operation using a company front of Brewster-Jennings & Associates that had other undercover CIA agents in several other countries throughout the world collecting information on WMD and terrorist activities. By exposing Plame and her connection to Brewster-Jennings, it also exposed everything and everyone else associated with that operation.

    We are probably never going to know how badly we were damaged by all of this.

    Compounding the damage, the front company, Brewster-Jennings & Associates, the name of which has been reported previously, apparently also was used by other CIA officers whose work now could be at risk, according to Vince Cannistraro, former CIA chief of counterterrorism operations and analysis. Now, Plame’s career as a covert operations officer in the CIA’s Directorate of Operations is over. Those she dealt with — on business or not — may be in danger. The directorate is conducting an extensive damage assessment. And Plame’s exposure may make it harder for American spies to persuade foreigners to share important secrets with them, U.S. intelligence officials said. [source]

    It was the CIA itself that asked for this investigation. They were the ones who referred it to the Justice Department. Ashcroft recused himself, and that is how Patrick Fitzgerald wound up with the investigation.

    I’m thinking that if anyone should know that there was a serious problem created by making Plame and any operation she was connected with a published news story, then it would have been the CIA itself.

    The correct answer to ANY question from a lawyer is either “I plead the fifth,” or a simple “Fuck You,” from this point on.

    Pleading the “Fifth” sounds great in movies, but you have to understand that it comes with the statement that anything you say may tend to incriminate yourself if you are forced to answer truthfully. ‘Pleading the Fifth’ can only be used if your answer might implicate yourself personally — it cannot be used to not answer questions that wouldn’t incriminate yourself.

    Giving a “fuck you” answer is obstruction and contempt.

    “I don’t remember” is probably the safest, but if information can be gathered from other sources, so it doesn’t protect you.

  56. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    *crickets*

  57. LC Guido Cabrone Comment by LC Guido Cabrone

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    *crickets*

    Other than the fact that I was work all day, and didn’t have a dog in this hunt anyways, I will leave with one little bit of information.

    Valerie Plame Wilson had already outed herself, all of her neighbors/friends knew she worked for the CIA.

    Richard Armitage had already spread her name all over the press.

    Secondly, despite all of the charges of “Obstruction of Justice!”, this is what I suspect happened.

    At some point in this completely pointless investigation, Libby was asked a question about what did he say to whom and when. He gave the wrong answer. Maybe deliberately, more likely his recollection was faulty. It happens to all of us. Okay, on reflection, (or further examination), he realized his error.

    Now, if you are in error under oath, and do not immediately say, “My Bad! It was really like this.”, then you are going to get hammered by a an over-zealous prosecutor for perjury. So, once he made a mistake in his testimony, he felt had to go ahead with it.

    The damned fool should have probably taken a clue from the Klintoons and said, “I don’t recall” a france of a lot more than he did.

  58. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Valerie Plame Wilson had already outed herself, all of her neighbors/friends knew she worked for the CIA.

    Based on the say-so of a FORMER ‘covert CIA agent’ who hadn’t been around since 1990?

    Apparently, the CURRENT CIA seemed to see things a whole lot differently, otherwise, why refer to the Justice Department for an investigation?

    Richard Armitage had already spread her name all over the press.

    No, he spread it TO the press. NOVAK decided to print it, along with the details of what she was working on.

    At some point in this completely pointless investigation, Libby was asked a question about what did he say to whom and when. He gave the wrong answer. Maybe deliberately, more likely his recollection was faulty. It happens to all of us. Okay, on reflection, (or further examination), he realized his error.

    He did it FIVE times (excuse me, FOUR times — one he was aquitted of)

    Now, if you are in error under oath, and do not immediately say, “My Bad! It was really like this.”, then you are going to get hammered by a an over-zealous prosecutor for perjury. So, once he made a mistake in his testimony, he felt had to go ahead with it.

    I hate to break it to you, but in the Federal system, the prosecutor doesn’t get to unilaterally charge a person by indictment. All he does is present the case to the Grand Jury and THEY make the decision to indict. This is the same Grand Jury that listened to Libby testify before them and lie in the first place.

    The Grand Jury hands down the indictments, and the prosecutor has a choice to either charge the defendant or try to make a deal. Libby turned down the deal and Fitzgerald filed the charges.

    The next layer of justice comes when the defendant Libby has his trial. Eleven Jurors heard the case and they decided that after hearing all of the testimony and evidence, that Libby was guilty of lying to FBI agents and obstructing an ongoing investigation.

    So, once he made a mistake in his testimony, he felt had to go ahead with it.

    He had plenty of opportunities to correct himself throughout the investigation and he didn’t.

    The damned fool should have probably taken a clue from the Klintoons and said, “I don’t recall” a france of a lot more than he did.

    If you ever find yourself in that situation, I hope you never take your advice. You have no idea what kind of hurt you will find yourself in.

    Grand Jury investigations are a lot more serious and intense than a civil deposition. The penalties are a whole lot tougher also.

  59. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

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    I said, most people KNOW Clinton lied under oath. (try to read it a little closer, where I said “regardless of [enter excuse or explanation here]”

    You didn’t specify Clinton.  You said “he”, which I took as a reference to Libby.  Granted, I didn’t do the greatest job of reading comprehension, but it would’ve helped.

    The Goebbels act? You mean that if you repeat something long enough it becomes ‘fact’? Gee, I never see any of that here…

    The Goebbels act, Dave.  I don’t give two flying fucks what 12 11 slightly (*cough*) less-than-objective DC residents think feel about it - nor do I much care what PattiAnn Fitzpatrick says.  Honestly failing to remember in vivid, technicolor detail (never mind what Queen Hilarious did in Whitewater) isn’t lying.

  60. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    The Goebbels act, Dave. I don’t give two flying fucks what 12 11 slightly (*cough*) less-than-objective DC residents think feel about it - nor do I much care what PattiAnn Fitzpatrick says.

    So the criminal justice system is broke when it doesn’t give the results you wanted to see?

    I think the jury was quite objective. They took ten days to come to a decision — being paid a whopping $25 per day for their troubles.

  61. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

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    So the criminal justice system is broke when it doesn’t give the results you wanted to see?

    Since I want to see justice being done - and since Libby being railroaded for a crime he didn’t commit isn’t justice - then yes, abso-fuckin’-lutely.

    You’re really making this too easy when I  can slap down your answers, Dave.

    I think the jury was quite objective. They took ten days to come to a decision — being paid a whopping $25 per day for their troubles.

    And for this piece of shit excuse-for-a-verdict, they were woefully overpaid.

  62. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Since I want to see justice being done - and since Libby being railroaded for a crime he didn’t commit isn’t justice - then yes, abso-fuckin’-lutely.

    I might remind you that two separate juries felt differently.

    The scope of the trial was not to determine if or who leaked classified information, it was only to determine whether Scooter Libby actively and purposely lied and obstructed the investigation. The evidence, testimony and the conviction says he did.

    He wasn’t convicted for leaking, he was convicted for lying about it.

    The sad thing is, if there wasn’t an underlying crime involved in the leak, then why did he feel the need to lie and obstruct? Wouldn’t it have been better if he had just said, “Hey! Armitage blabbed his yap — go talk to him!”

    Another thing, when you appear before a Grand Jury, you are allowed to read your notes. You even have time to prepare. Most people, especially someone in his high position, have lawyers to help him prepare. Scooter could have done exactly what the FBI and Fitgerald did — check appointment books, memos, and other records and then try to match his testimony to those records.

    Libby is not a stupid, forgetful man. If he was, he wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) have been in the position he was. He knew exactly what he was doing — he was misdirecting in an effort to protect others in the administration from political embarrassment. He sacrificed himself for the team, and will probably be rewarded for it with a pardon in January 2009.

    You’re really making this too easy when I can slap down your answers, Dave.

    I feel you fanning, but you are missing me. :wink_ee:

  63. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    I missed this one:

    But just for shits and giggles, I’ll play a little round of Librul Tu Quoque with you, seeing your bet and raising- how many Scooter Libbys would it take to equal one Marc Rich?

    Wasn’t Scooter Marc Rich’s attorney?