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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » The Wonders of Socialism
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We don’t often link to the festering fever swamp of the Dhimmicratic Underwear (this fine gentleman and Imperial Blogger does it so much better after all), but when Sir Guido sent us this link, we knew that we had to make an exception.

After all, they’re talking about guns, those wonderful, warm, lovable instruments of joy and merriment, and some of the more demented Stalinist replies are fine examples of why socialist shitholes where the almighty state controls everything are such wonderful havens of unemployed, hopeless misery.

But equal misery, mind you. It’s socialism, after all.

First, the original post by a gentleman who actually, *GASP!*, makes sense. Something about as rare on Dhimmicratic Underpants as finding a virgin above the age of 12 within a 50 mile radius of a male member of the Clinton family (pun very much intended).

Illinois Gun Control Idiocy Costing 450 Jobs and $20 Million

So those idiots in Springfield are going to pass a bill which bans high capacity magazines (>10 rounds). Not just the the possession but the actual manufacture of said magazines.

Text of Bill http://ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=09500S…

So what is going to happen? FIVE count them FIVE gun makers are leaving.

http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2007/05/15/news/local/d…

Officials criticized Chicago lawmakers for creating a “feel-good law” they say will do nothing to stop violence and will force companies to leave Illinois. “It’s kind of a regional battle between the legislators from Chicago and legislators from the downstaters,” Rep. Mike Boland, D-East Moline, said.The bill calls for a ban on large-capacity gun magazine clips, which are produced by five local companies:

Springfield Armory, Geneseo, Ill.
ArmaLite, Geneseo, Ill.
Rock River Arms, Colona, Ill.
Les Baer Custom, Hillsdale, Ill.
Lewis Machine and Tool, Milan, Ill.

Les Baer is already planning to move to LeClaire, Iowa.”

450 jobs and $20 million in revenue if the companies have to move. The decision would also affect their local suppliers.

I guess jobs and revenue never gets in the way of politician assholes being assholes.

Ronnie Barrett quit selling ANY of his rifles to the People’s Republik of Kalifornia LEO after they passed their .50 ban. I hope he does the same to Illinois and any other state that does the same. And I hope ALL these companies follow suit. Furthermore I hope DoD gets into the act and puts a knee into the nuts of Illinois by not sending ANY money their way.

We wish “qdemn7″ the best as the overlords at DU get ready to tombstone him for his pro-gun, pro-business capitalistic heresy right in the middle of the People’s Forum.

And now, the insanity begins as replies begin piling on:

BS - nobody is forcing them to leave, it is their own choice. nice right wing propaganda nt
Posted by msongs on Wed May-16-07 10:04 AM

Of course it is. After all, they could quite easily stay in the People’s Republik of Illinois if only they’d give up their anti-social, counterrevolutionary worship of actually making a profit. Much like there’ll be absolutely no force involved when His Imperial Majesty takes over power in the Socialist States of America and tells every single socialist shit in the nation that they’re quite free to stay, as long as they don’t mind never having a meal again.

Hey! “Nobody will be forcing them to leave. It will be their own choice. Nice Stalinist fearmongering and propaganda.”

don’t they manufacture ANYTHING ELSE?
Posted by Scout on Wed May-16-07 06:23 PM

industries and businesses facing changing conditions all the time. They have to be able to adapt. They don’t have to go out of business just because of this proposed legislation, nor do they HAVE to leave the state.

Damn straight, comrade. Those exploitative, fascist robber barons just have to adapt to making a loss every year instead of a profit. It’s only their own egotism and insistence on being able to pay exploit their workers that is making them move from the wonderful Workers’ Paradise of Illinois.

450 jobs of ALIVE people?
Posted by dave_p on Wed May-16-07 10:06 AM

… rather than the 380,000 Americans killed by gun homicide in the past 30 years?

Sounds a reasonable deal. The 450 have the right to get better jobs. The 380,000 don’t. All their rights were snuffed out by guns.

380,000 people, cut down in the prime of their lives by evil 11+ capacity magazines who, due to their Evil High Capacity, crawled out and inserted themselves in Evil Guns in the middle of the night, right before going on a murderous rampage.

Because nobody was ever shot with a gun with less than 11 rounds in the magazine.

And sure the 450 have the “right” to get better jobs, but for some weird reason they haven’t. Could it be because they actually rather like the jobs they have at the moment? Could it, *GASP!*, be because they were exercising their anti-worker, egotistical, in-need-of-immediate-reeducation “free choice” in getting those jobs?

Oh well. You can’t build roads to the new gulags without the bones of a few hundred thousand to serve as foundation. Let them eat cake.

Killed by creeps with guns
Posted by dave_p on Wed May-16-07 11:02 AM

How many mass murders are committed by unarmed people? What kind of person needs to get in ten shots before someone gets the chance to put one through them?

Only fools - or far worse - want more tools for other fools to kill with.

How many mass murders are successfully committed against armed people?

Damn, I done made his head explode… Oh well, we’ll find another chew toy.

I advocate an end to gun culture
Posted by dave_p on Wed May-16-07 11:41 AM

It debases the bonds of trust that hold a society together. It fuels the acceptance of violence and death. It threatens unarmed civilians. If control at the point of purchase doesn’t work (and to me it’s beside the point), then control at the point of production seems all the more sensible.

I advocate an end to murder. Let’s outlaw it!

Oh wait… Damn, but it sure sounded good, didn’t it?

And we’re still waiting for “dave_p” to explain to us why people will suddenly stop getting murdered simply because the criminals murdering them with stolen guns will now have to steal the 11+ round magazines that they don’t need in the first place as well.

“Anti-rights”?
Posted by dave_p on Wed May-16-07 04:20 PM

What about the rights of the 380,000 dead? They don’t count? I’m for their rights too.

Which will do them a whole fat load of good, we’re sure. We’d ask them, but they’re too busy decomposing.

But he’s not done explaining the many wonders and marvels of low capacity magazines yet:

Many would
Posted by dave_p on Wed May-16-07 07:55 PM

Your point might be reasonable if the US didn’t have a far higher murder rate than comparable societies. People aren’t using guns for murders they’d be committing anyway with the next best weapon. More guns correlates with more killings. It makes killing easier, and it sustains a culture that holds life cheap.

No, 10 rounds doesn’t stop it. But it’d make the mass killer’s work that bit harder. It’s a start.

All that work reloading would simply stop those killers dead in their tracks. Not to mention that they’d never dream of simply stealing high capacity magazines along with their guns. That would be criminal, after all, and these are mere murderers we’re talking about here. Wait a minute… Oh shit, made his head explode again.

As a final note, don’t miss the brave few who valiantly try to beat even the tiniest amount of Clue into the thick, concrete skulls of the socialist klowns, all to no avail.

105 Responses to “The Wonders of Socialism”
  1. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >380,000 dead

    They should have been carrying at the time.

    >bans high capacity magazines

    Because nobody ever died before “high-capacity” magazines were introduced…

    Well, I carry a revolver anyway. Anybody know how to make a high-capacity .357 magnum cylinder?

  2. Unregistered Comment by seagoon

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    here’s a laugh for you- I can access the Rott no problem, but DU won’t load even with a proxy…

    DU- even real commies don’t like them.

  3. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Anybody know how to make a high-capacity .357 magnum cylinder?

    Closest I ever saw Fuzz.

    I can’t believe that was posted at DU. I hope qdemn7 had a nice, fulfilling life. W

  4. Tom The Impaler Comment by Tom The Impaler

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    How many mass murders are committed by unarmed people

    Can’t think of many, but I know that serial killers prefer knives and strangulation. Does that count?

  5. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    BTW Fuzz, I carried that revolver for a few years as a duty piece, damn fine weapon.

  6. Tom The Impaler Comment by Tom The Impaler

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    I had a ported 686. Fell back into the debt from which it sprang. Nice gun, I miss it.

  7. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    That’s a nice revolver there, Crunchie… here’s my six shooter. I’m not as accurate with it as I am with the Kimber, but it’s a joy to shoot.

  8. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Talk about a classic wheelgun there jaybear, that is sweet, and I’m not really a revolver guy. I’m with ya on the accuracy bit. I’m at least 15% more accurate with a semi than a wheel, at least that’s what all my qaul scores tell me. Although on single action, I can drive some tacks. It’s a shame most gun fights won’t give you the luxury of time to get off a good single action shot.

    Revolvers are true pieces of beauty, but they’ve definitely outlived their service life. Excellent for beginner carry though, a lot less to worry about during the stress of a lethal encounter, unless you’re gonna go combat tupperware or Steyr.

  9. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Maybe I should go there and make them all wet their diapers by bragging about my TWO 16 capacity Springfield mags along with my two piddly 10’s.

    And I can really make them vapor lock by talking about my Suuuuper Eeeeevil XD-9. BWwwahahahaha!

    Now if I can just get Jackboot to stop ragging on me about it. *snark*

  10. Sir Christopher Comment by Sir Christopher

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    It makes killing easier, and it sustains a culture that holds life cheap.

    is he talking about Planned Infanticide?

  11. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    I’d take the Steyr over the Glock Crunchie, I’ve yet to fire a Glock that fit my grip….for some reason, I can’t hold them comfortably. No problems with a Browning or a Colt and the Kimber fits me like a glove, but the Glock….doesn’t feel right in my hand.

    I agree that revolvers are more historical than practical, but I think that’s why they appeal to me so much…I mean, hell…look at what I have in my arsenal:

    S&W .357 revolver
    M1 Garand
    Winchester Ranger Carbine
    Kimber Classic 45

    It’s the historian in me man, I better get with the times and modernize a little eh?

  12. MasterGuns, Imperial Marine Comment by MasterGuns, Imperial Marine

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    I normally carry an old Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 spl……I like the old turd and he never lets me down.

    Semper Fi

  13. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Well as long as we are sharing pics of our toys, here’s mine.

  14. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Hell jaybear, I’m surprised there aren’t any 1861 Navy’s, Enfields, or Springfields in there!

    Yer right about they Steyr though. It fits most hands and has a nice rake to it. Plus it has a manual safety to it, something that appeals to the traditionalist in me over the Glock. In fact, the Steyr is our Departmental issue.

    Not disparaging the Glock mind you, I just think the Steyr is superior.

    BTW, speaking of mag capacity, I just upgraded to 18 rd flush fit MecGars for my ninety-two, gives me 55 rds for duty carry. Man the DUmmies heads would really ehtplode with that.

  15. LC SkyeChild Comment by LC SkyeChild

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    The “good old boys” of both parties in southern Illinois LOVE their guns…this isn’t gonna sit too well down south.

  16. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    I advocate an end to gun culture
    Posted by dave_p on Wed May-16-07 11:41 AM

    It debases the bonds of trust that hold a society together.

    My bond of trust is I ain’t gonna shoot you if you don’t shoot at me, and I trust the two of us will shoot any asshat that shoots at an innocent.

  17. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    44 spl wont let anyone down Guns, a highly underrated round.

    Mrs M, nice taste darlin, Springfield makes some quality goblin aerators.

  18. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    Crunchie sez:

    Hell jaybear, I’m surprised there aren’t any 1861 Navy’s, Enfields, or Springfields in there!

    I have an old Navy Colt, but would never fire it for fear of my own safety…it’s framed in a glass box and hung between my Dale Gallon prints.

    As for the Springfield muzzle loader….just gimme time sir, it took me almost 20 years to find the right Garand.

  19. Unregistered Comment by LC Elchonon, Imperial Chief of Civil Disobedience

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    Ive got crunchy’s trusted 1911 .45 that shoots AMAZINGLY well! Sadly I have just 5 mag’s, 2 7rd and 3 8rd. I was cheap on buying the 3 8rd on ebay at 30$ for 3 and they dont fire as well as the 7 rd, they jam every so often so I use em at the range.

  20. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    The “good old boys” of both parties in southern Illinois LOVE their guns…this isn’t gonna sit too well down south.

    SkyeChild, we do LOVE our guns down here in southern Illinois, in fact, throughout the rest of the state EXCEPT the Peoples Republik of Daley. The problem is because of a lesser density in population, we do not have enough votes in the general assembly. Mayor Daley handpicks the people in northern Illinois, even for the Federal Level (ie Durbin and Obama). Illinois’ laws are made by Chicago politicians and that is the problem with this state. Blagojevich was elected by Chicago…He doesnt even stay in the Governor’s Mansion in Springfield, he stays in his home in Wilmette, a Chicago Suburb right next to his gay lover Mayor Daley.

    But yes, southern, central, and northwest Illinois hates Chicago telling them how to live. Southern Illinois raised a petition to secede from Illinois to create a new state, it got over 300,000 signatures…I wish it were a real option….but it is not. I feel there is no end in sight for the damage to our rights in this state due to complacency.

  21. Elijah Comment by Elijah

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    Bravo!

    Lovely fisking that!

  22. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    OK, I’ll probably take some flak for this (har, har). You guys obviously know your guns. (Mrs. M–very impressive–would frighten me off.) Tell me the flaw in this argument (I’m sure it won’t be hard): somebody shooting for self-defense shouldn’t need a gun with so many rounds (unless I guess if a lot of people are after them). It seems like the mass murder types would want guns with a lot of rounds. Am I really off base? (And no, I don’t want all those people to lose their jobs.) I’m not trolling. It’s an honest question. I might change my mind, depending on the answer(s)

  23. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Ok PC I’ll give my opinion (and the others with more experience will jump in for sure). I still consider myself a gun newbie, so my comment will of course not be very technical. Plus it’s late at night and I’m drooping fast.

    First off…when you go to the range to practice (and most responsible gun owners go to the range sometimes more often than the majority of police officers) it’s nice to be able to slap that 16 round mag into that gun and fire away without having to stop every 6 shots and reload. Many training and safety classes require you to have higher capacity magazines to practice a certain procedure. Many competition shooting events require higher capacity magazines.

    I keep a 16 round capacity magazine in my gun at all times, except when at the range when I switch to my 10 round magazines. Mainly because I don’t like unloading and reloading my defense magazines.
    That 16 round magazine is also loaded with jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullets as my defense rounds.
    In a situation where you may end up drawing your weapon, there’s a good chance you may have more than one goblin to deal with. They sometimes tend to go about in groups of 2 or 3, and chances are VERY good they will also be armed. Whether with a gun or a knife..doesn’t matter. In that situation you want to make sure you are at least as well if not better prepared than they are. Also…in a situation like that you will most likely be frightened, agitated, and nervous and your aim may or may not be that great depending on how close your target is. You may or may not be hitting the goblin with the first few shots or you may just make a peripheral hit (arm, leg, shoulder) that will not stop the goblin. He may be dodging and moving and hard to hit. When you are in a situation when you know you have to draw that gun, you shoot until the threat is gone. That most often means that the goblin is on the ground and he stays there.
    You might get lucky and there’s only one goblin and just the sight of the gun will make him run like hell. If he runs…you don’t shoot. THAT will get your ass thrown in jail. If he laughs at you and tells you that you don’t have the guts to shoot and aims his gun at you or advances toward you …you just show him the error of his ways and pull that trigger until he hits the ground or…if HE’S lucky…he runs away.

    Now…are you always going to be attacked by just one person? No.
    Are you always going to hit your target the very first shot? No.
    Is the goblin always going to stop trying to attack you the first time you pull that trigger? No.
    Can you count on just 6 bullets being enough to eliminate the threat? No.

    When it comes to self defense..you always plan on the unexpected and always plan to be better armed than the person attacking you.

  24. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    LC 0311 crunchie,

    Ah, yes. My concealed carry gun is a little brother of that one. I was looking for an inexpensive .357 snubbie, and gave Taurus a try, and have absolutely loved it. It’s small enough to conceal easily, but heavy enough to decrease the recoil, making it a lot more fun for long sessions at the range.

  25. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >It makes killing easier, and it sustains a culture that holds life cheap.

    It makes self-defense easier, which in turn sustains my culture that holds liberty to be of the highest value.

  26. Unregistered Comment by nicki_f

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    I would like to answer the hi-cap question as well, although, my reply is more ideological. It’s not just about self defense. The Second Amendment is not just about outgunning the bad guys, although defending your fundamental rights is critical to our survival as a human race. The main reason for me to have high capacity magazines is simply because I can. I want to assert my rights. The Second Amendment was intended as a bulwark against tyranny, and a fundamental right. Anytime the government begins limiting rights, rights cease to exist and become little more than privileges granted by those in power. For a right to be a right, it must be unfettered and unlimited by those in power. I don’t NEED high capacity magazines, but I have the right to own them. And I will.

    Nicki

  27. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Mrs. M
    Thank you. That seems reasonable to me. I would no longer support that law.

    By the way (not to do a me-fest), but I did have one more comment about the spineless thing. Often it’s fair, but if I were totally spineless, I would not have posted my full name and schools I had attended on this site. It was deleted, fortunately (not out of Rottie fear, but of roaming psychos). Spineless/reckless–both bad. There seems to be room for improvement.

    Now, back to the topic, thank you for your time. Now it’s starting to seem like it might be fun to have a gun, but my mental health precludes it. Apparently I made this promise to never buy a gun. Do promises count if you don’t remember making them? Yeah, I guess so.

  28. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    nicki_f
    caught your post later. I understand the argument for hi-caps. However, I may differ ideologically. You do have the right to own firearms, but do you not believe in any regulation? At some point, there is a balance between individual rights and the greater good. People fight to the death over that balance. We don’t want autocratic tyranny. However, you can argue that it benefits society to regulate certain things. Guns have the 2nd amendment protection, but does that extend to every gun and bullet? Should people be able to buy the bullets that go through cop’s protective vests? I would argue not. Am I correct in remembering that plastic guns could pass through airport security screens? I might be incorrect. I don’t think all regulation is evil. I don’t think normal people should be able to buy cyanide (I can, since I work in a lab.) (There is no 2nd amendment right for cyanide).

    Remember it’s an intellectual argument–I’m not saying you can’t have your guns and ammo

  29. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Well damn, Mrs M, you just about said anything that needed to be said about hi-cap magazines. Not bad for a “newbie” (and don’t let me hear you calling yourself that again :-) )

    One other point I’d like to add is that, when the fecal matter starts flying, impacting rotary devices all over the place, one of the first things to go is your fine motor skills. Unfortunately, even the “simple” action of releasing a mag and inserting a new one falls under “fine motor skills”, which is why we train like crazy doing silly stuff like that to turn it into muscle memory. That way, we won’t have to think about it, we just do, much like we don’t have to think about remembering to breathe.

    But it still takes time, time you don’t have if you’re facing an unknown number of assailants, which is why more rounds is always better. It eliminates one of the uncertainties in combat.

    Guns have the 2nd amendment protection, but does that extend to every gun and bullet? Should people be able to buy the bullets that go through cop’s protective vests? I would argue not.

    And you’d be wrong. Cops are humans too, as prone to the lures of totalitarian rule as the rest of us. In every single totalitarian takeover in history, it has always been the “authorities” doing the dirty job. If you can’t defend yourself against those, you can’t defend yourself period.

    That’s NOT the same as saying that I’m suspecting that we’re three seconds away from dictatorship and the cops are going to kick in my door and take my rights away from me any minute. I don’t believe that. I’m not even worried about that at the moment, but that’s not the point.

    The point IS that when I reach the point where I HAVE to start worrying about it, I don’t want to be playing “catchup”, because by then it’ll be too late.

    I don’t want “cop-killer” bullets because I bear any sort of animosity towards cops, just as I’m not paying for fire insurance because I expect my home to burn down tomorrow.

    I want, I DEMAND the ability to defend myself against government tyranny because nothing is more efficient in discouraging government from getting funny ideas than the knowledge that they’ll be killed dead if they try anything stupid.

    Nobody has anything to fear from me unless they try to threaten me, mine, my friends or my loved ones, and that goes for government too. As long as they behave, they’re perfectly safe. If they decide that the “greater good” is more important than my personal freedom, on the other hand, they’d damn well better bring body bags and lots of them, because they’re going to need them.

    The only legitimate government is a government that lies awake at night, shitting themselves at the thought of what the governed might do to them if they forget that they’re servants, not masters.

  30. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Emporer
    OK, that makes sense to me. God, I hope that doesn’t come off as snide. I thought it was well-argued.

    I meant to correct myself in the previous post
    -not that Nicki “can have his guns and ammo”
    -but that he has the RIGHT to

    I didn’t want to sound condescending

  31. LC NCLivingBrit Comment by LC NCLivingBrit

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    Well, this was my “carry piece” yesterday when I moved in to my new (gated, nice pointy wrought iron fences all around and six cops who park their patrol cars within sight of my porch) apartment community. About as close as I’ve come to concealable yet :)

    http://www.box.net/shared/7zjydboiha

  32. Unregistered Comment by oldbootneck

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    one of the first things to go is your fine motor skills. Unfortunately, even the “simple” action of releasing a mag and inserting a new one falls under “fine motor skills”, which is why we train like crazy doing silly stuff like that to turn it into muscle memory.

    Train hard to fight easy.

  33. Unregistered Comment by nicki_f

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    OK, first of all, I’m a “she.” Sorry for the delay in replying. I was out on a mission with members of the Serb Armed Forces. FUN!!! Nonetheless…

    Do I believe in ANY firearms regulation? No. I do not. The Second Amendment is very clear. My owning and having guns, ammo, hi-cap magazines, etc. does not infringe on anyone else’s right to life, liberty or property. It is only if I use those items in a manner that infringes upon others’ rights do I become a danger. The balance between individual rights and common good exists naturally, not due to any government regulation. I have rights as long as they don’t infringe on others’ rights. How does regulating what kind of magazines I own benefit society in any way? It doesn’t. I’m no more likely to go on a shooting spree with a 10 round mag than I am with a 15 or 20 or 30 round mag.

    “Should people be able to buy the bullets that go through cop’s protective vests?” Yes. Are you saying that criminals can’t get bulletproof vests? Are you saying that police should have the right to defend themselves against criminals who wear these vests, but regular citizens don’t? Are you saying I’m more apt to kill a cop if I have these bullets? I doubt that.

    “I would argue not.” Why?

    “Am I correct in remembering that plastic guns could pass through airport security screens? I might be incorrect.” No you are not. Every firearm that I know of has some metal parts. Here’s more on plastic guns.

    “I don’t think normal people should be able to buy cyanide (I can, since I work in a lab.) (There is no 2nd amendment right for cyanide).” Cyanide is not an “arm.” By your logic normal people shouldn’t be able to buy knives, bats, or anything else that can be used as a weapon. That’s a no-go.

    Nicki

  34. Imperial Tobacconist LC&IB M Comment by Imperial Tobacconist LC&IB M

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Guns have the 2nd amendment protection, but does that extend to every gun and bullet? Should people be able to buy the bullets that go through cop’s protective vests? I would argue not.

    First of all, there are very few handgun bullets out there on the market that can penetrate the average protective vest. The anti-gun crowd just LOVES the phrase “cop killer bullets”, after all, they invented it.

    Most of us who carry use the exact same rounds that the police carry…jacketed hollowpoints…and for the same reasons: they inflict the maximum damage on the INTENDED target, without danger of over-penetration and hitting an UNINTENDED target behind the goblin being fired upon.

  35. Imperial Tobacconist LC&IB M Comment by Imperial Tobacconist LC&IB M

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Unfortunately, even the “simple” action of releasing a mag and inserting a new one falls under “fine motor skills”, which is why we train like crazy doing silly stuff like that to turn it into muscle memory. That way, we won’t have to think about it, we just do, much like we don’t have to think about remembering to breathe.

    Just remember…slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. Practice, practice, practice…

  36. Imperial Tobacconist LC&IB M Comment by Imperial Tobacconist LC&IB M

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    Oh, and by the way, here’s mine.

  37. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Not bad for a “newbie” (and don’t let me hear you calling yourself that again :-) )

    Thank you Sire. :-)

    Now it’s starting to seem like it might be fun to have a gun, but my mental health precludes it.

    Then find a shooting range somewhere in your area and check to see if they rent handguns. Most ranges do so. You can rent one for an hour or two (you have to provide your own ammo or buy a box of theirs), and just learn to shoot. Most ranges offer shooting and safety classes. It will help your confidence, teach you safe gun handling and usage, help you get over the fear of guns, and you simply leave it at the range when you are done. Many ranges offer several different types of guns to try. Revolvers, 9mm., 40’s and 45’s…etc. It’s a good way to try out a gun before you go spend the moola for one of your own. That’s how I found out that I prefer a 9mm. to a .40 or .45. (although I will say that it’s a bitchen blast to shoot M’s XD-45).

  38. Unregistered Comment by 1894C

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    Imperial Tobacconist Said:
    “First of all, there are very few handgun bullets out there on the market that can penetrate the average protective vest. ”

    Actually that’s not true. The National Institute for Justice classifies body armor level I, level II and so on. This info is available here:
    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/183651.htm

    Here is the basic rundown:

    –Quote from the Ballistic Resistance of Personal Body Armor NIJ Standard–0101.04————

    2.1 Type I (22 LR; 380 ACP) This armor protects against .22 caliber Long Rifle Lead Round Nose (LR LRN) bullets, with nominal masses of 2.6 g (40 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 320 m/s (1050 ft/s) or less, and 380 ACP Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 6.2 g (95 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less.

    2.2 Type IIA (9 mm; 40 S&W) This armor protects against 9 mm Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 332 m/s (1090 ft/s) or less, and 40 S&W caliber Full Metal Jacketed (FMJ) bullets, with nominal masses of 11.7 g (180 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against the threats mentioned in section 2.1.

    2.3 Type II (9 mm; 357 Magnum) This armor protects against 9 mm Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 358 m/s (1175 ft/s) or less, and 357 Magnum Jacketed Soft Point (JSP) bullets, with nominal masses of 10.2 g (158 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against the threats mentioned in sections 2.1 and 2.2.

    2.4 Type IIIA (High Velocity 9 mm; 44 Magnum) This armor protects against 9 mm Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less, and 44 Magnum Semi Jacketed Hollow Point (SJHP) bullets, with nominal masses of 15.6 g (240 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against most handgun threats, as well as the threats mentioned in sections 2.1, 2.2, and 2.3.

    2.5 Type III (Rifles) This armor protects against 7.62 mm Full Metal Jacketed (FMJ) bullets (U.S. Military designation M80), with nominal masses of 9.6 g (148 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 838 m/s (2750 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against the threats mentioned in sections 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, and 2.4

    2.6 Type IV (Armor Piercing Rifle) This armor protects against .30 caliber armor piercing (AP) bullets (U.S. Military designation M2 AP), with nominal masses of 10.8 g (166 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 869 m/s (2850 ft/s) or less. It also provides at least single hit protection against the threats mentioned in sections 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, and 2.5.

    2.7 Special Type A purchaser having a special requirement for a level of protection other than one of the above standard types and threat levels should specify the exact test round(s) and minimum reference impact velocities to be used, and indicate that this standard shall govern in all other aspects.

    ——end quote——

    Most cops use Level IIA or Level II body armor such armor is borderline against .357 (read: I would not trust lvl II against .357). It is NOT proof against .45ACP .44Magnum .454Casul .41Magnum and so on.

    FWIW…..

  39. LC SkyeChild Comment by LC SkyeChild

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    TheCount,

    If you don’t mind, I’d like to know what part of southern Illinois you are from, since I hail from both north and south. I spent my junior high and high school years in southern Il, and my first college years at SIU.

    Misha has my permission to give you my gmail address, if he still has it. If not, I’ll pass it on to him.

  40. Sir Christopher Comment by Sir Christopher

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    and two weeks ago, I joined the ranks of the armed, here in Feinsteinistan.

    As somebody mentioned (i think the Tobacconist in his blog link) i’ve always been a fan of the Colt .45, and my buddy sold me his M1991A, very much like this one, but with stock trigger, and in blue metal

    Now i gotta head up to that range where .22 shells magically eject and learn to shoot this thing.

  41. Unregistered Comment by F Hawkins

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Lest you get scared by the thirty year number in this thread, here’s the lastest figure:

    8,259 murders by firearms. (according to this site:
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms )

    380,000 divided by 30 gives 12,666 per year which is 53% higher than nationmaster’s figure. (grain of salt, please)

    8259 murders divided by population of 301,139,947 gives 0.000027 chance

    (Population # is July 2007 est. According to https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/us.html )

    In other words if you are not stupid enough to make your money in a self-policing trade like drug dealing or organized crime, your odds are pretty good for a 70+ lifespan. (Get more exercise). And drive smarter: cars are riskier than guns in the hands of crooks.

    I do wish that they could asterisk these numbers to indicate public service killings (ie people better off dead).

  42. ACLPoo Comment by ACLPoo

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    You can have a 1000-round clip if you want, but one well-shot bullet from another gun can stop that rampage before the state limit of 10 is reached…
    Plus, don’t rampagers usually take multiple guns? Reloading never seems to be their downfall, armed people fighting for their lives does. I’ve only been on the planet 37 years, but from what I’ve read about on the news, this pattern is pretty common…

  43. Kristopher Comment by Kristopher

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    Now, back to the topic, thank you for your time. Now it’s starting to seem like it might be fun to have a gun, but my mental health precludes it. Apparently I made this promise to never buy a gun. Do promises count if you don’t remember making them? Yeah, I guess so.

    If you feel you are not stable enough to carry a firearm, then your decision not to carry is probably wise.

    Unfortunately, most unstable people either carry anyway, or they project their issue on others, and fearing that others are just as unstable, demand that all potential victims be disarmed to allay their own excessive fears.

    Thank you for not projecting.

  44. Rurik Comment by Rurik

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    There is another argument for high-capacity magazines. While you are mose likely to have to defend yourself against a home intrusion or random parking lot attack, there is always the threat of civic breakdown and urban riots. Think LA Rodney King riots, of iof you insist, the last time the KKK actually lynched someone. And it is times like those when you will not be able to call 911 and then lock yourself in the bathroom till the cops arrive - they’ll be too busy with othe incidents down the street. If confronted by an overheated mob, you will want all the ammunition you can find. You may be able to imagine a variety of other unlikely, but maximally unpleasant urban chaos situations. This is also one rejoinder to that other old saw “Why do you need more than one nasty gun?” (Another rejoinder might be - “Same reason you need more than one bong.”)

    But PC, you have swerved into another relevant debate, the one between shooters like Crunchie and Mrs. M who favor automatic, and other shooters who prefer revolvers. It doesn’t matter how many rounds you’ve got in your magazine if the second round misfires and jams; with a wheel gun you just click on through to the next chamber.

    Of course the proper resolution to this controversy would be to carry both. Whenever you carry more than one gun, the Baby Jesus smiles.

  45. thetay Comment by thetay

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    Of course the proper resolution to this controversy would be to carry both. Whenever you carry more than one gun, the Baby Jesus smiles.

    The thought had never occurred to me previously, but as I can, clearly, I should.
    It’s time to go make Baby Jesus smile.

  46. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Rurik mentioned:

    there is always the threat of civic breakdown and urban riots.

    Not only that, but armed citizens are the ones on the front lines in terrorist attacks. It seems that the shift is going from bombs and airplanes to take out the maximum amount of people, to gun attacks. Massad Ayoob has a good article on that subject.

    PC…Massad is an excellent teacher and instructor to Google and read anything he’s written on gun defense, safety, and handling. He has a book out titled “In The Gravest Extreme” that is excellent in laying out the self defense argument and also for preparing a gun owner for what they need to know about pulling that trigger BEFORE they have to pull that trigger.

  47. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Well damn, Mrs M, you just about said anything that needed to be said about hi-cap magazines. Not bad for a “newbie” (and don’t let me hear you calling yourself that again :-) )

    Boss, she nailed that one right good, I might add as well. We’ll schedule her for the re-education camps for the newbie statement though. I’ve got some OBR budget left and the Manhattan district director, Radical Redneck has the space available. She’ll just love Central Park and SoHo after dark this time of year.

    Now if I can just get Jackboot to stop ragging on me about it.

    nahhh…you gotta keep a 9mm around just in case a rodent or small reptile needs to be dispatched. Besides a good Mozambique string is effective with a .22 cal as it would be with a cannon. Besides you did express a preference for M’s XD-45. My aversion to the 9mm is more based on the former, lousy 60 grain silver-tips the state issued and field tests on Bambis. As it worked out, the first patrol I pulled carrying the .40 required euthanising a large buck. That SJHP-Hydra Shock did the job clearly without a need for a double-tap.

    Only problem I have now is with all those malicious hi-cap magazines. I usually hobble the ‘off-duty’ ones, removing their heel-plates, to ensure they don’t go on a mass-murder spree. Maybe if we paint them all pink they’ll assume more metrosexualness and gain our trust.

  48. JanetMae Comment by JanetMae

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    industries and businesses facing changing conditions all the time. They have to be able to adapt. They don’t have to go out of business just because of this proposed legislation, nor do they HAVE to leave the state.

    Interesting from the same morons that whine about those poor, “Mom and Pop,” businesses that are supposedly FORCED out of busines by the evil, oppressive Wal-Mart-type department stores. They are not supposed to have to adjust their business practices to, “changing conditions.”

  49. MasterGuns, Imperial Marine Comment by MasterGuns, Imperial Marine

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    I own only 2 9mms…..An old Belgian Browning P35 and an Egyptian Helwan(Beretta Brigadier in disguise). I like both and enjoy shooting them but I prefer to concealed-carry either my Bulldog or my Combat Commander. I also normally carry a 2nd piece….A Walther PPK/S or a Colt Pony.

    If I am openly carrying, my S&W 57 or his cousin the S&W 19 or the Python do the trick.

    For hunting, the S&W 57 or my Ruger Blackhawk suit me fine.

    I guess Baby Jesus smiles at me.
    —————————————-
    As far as I am concerned, I should be able to own any firearm I so desire unless I am a convicted felon, a druggie, legally insane, or a non-citizen.

    The founding fathers expected the people to remain armed with the “evil assault weapons” of the day…..flintlock muskets. I see no reason I should not remain armed with modern up to date weaponry unless it’s my choice to collect the older stuff(which it is).

    Gun control is the ability to hit your target.

    Semper Fi

    Semper Fi

  50. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    SkyeChild, I Graduated from Carbondale High School and Graduated from SIU-C with a Bachelor’s in History. I have lived here all my life…still here…lol. Hunt and Fish every chance I get at Rend Lake, Kincaid, Crab Orchard…you name it. I have a lot of friends up north around Chicago who hate the gun laws just as bad as I do.

  51. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    We’ll schedule her for the re-education camps for the newbie statement though.

    She’ll just love Central Park and SoHo after dark this time of year.

    Allí Bro cuidadoso. Estoy sosteniendo a rehén de tus Cubanos.

  52. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    MasterGuns
    I’m glad you said that legally insane people shouldn’t be able to get guns. The postal shootings in Goleta were by this wacko who had been forcibly institutionalized after making threats at work. She would never have been able to buy a gun in California, but she got hers in New Mexico. I know you guys hate government control, but I think a better list of psychos/criminals would be a good thing. I also think it’s sad she wandered around her town obviously highly disturbed, but never got any help. My guess is that she was a paranoid schizophrenic, and often they won’t admit they have a problem.

    Mrs. M
    Actually, I’m not afraid of guns. They hold a great fascination for me. I would love to own some. It was more the people that carry them. I was afraid of the people that openly carried them in Tucson. You guys all seem like you are responsible gun owners, and these discussions no longer freak me out, although they tend to be way over my head. It does disturb me when people leave guns where their kids can find them, but I’m sure any reasonable person would be disturbed by that. It’s not a slight on you guys. Some people have described how they trained their kids to handle guns (a good thing!)

    The rent a gun at the firing range seems like a totally excellent idea. I have a neighbor who is a good shot, and I’m sure she would help me. Problem is that normally kind and gentle spouse would hit the roof if I started using guns with my background.

  53. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >I was afraid of the people that openly carried them in Tucson.

    Sorry! :)

  54. Xystus Comment by Xystus

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    12.

    I normally carry an old Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 spl……I like the old turd and he never lets me down.

    Just what I was thinking of getting after my Tanfoglio .45 (though not necessarily an “old turd”). Unfortunately the required $$$ seems not to have materialized.

    45.

    It doesn’t matter how many rounds you’ve got in your magazine if the second round misfires and jams; with a wheel gun you just click on through to the next chamber. Of course the proper resolution to this controversy would be to carry both.

    Just what I’ve been assuming. I seem to recall words to that effect many years ago by Massad Ayoob himself!

    50.

    I Graduated from Carbondale High School

    What year was that, Count? When someone says “southern Illinois,” I tend to think of Carbondale, even though I’ve never been there. That’s because my high-school class–’75–up here in Minnesota included an interesting former Carbondaler.

  55. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

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    Problem is that normally kind and gentle spouse would hit the roof if I started using guns with my background.

    Can’t imagine why… :lol:

    (That was a gentle poke, not a slam, BTW.) ;)

  56. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    hmmm-

    They hold a great fascination for me. I would love to own some. It was more the people that carry them. I was afraid of the people that openly carried them in Tucson.

    Didn’t we just see a link to an article, eerily familiar in tone?

    PC- Take Mrs. M’s advice, find a local gunshop, rent something that doesn’t look too scary for you and have some fun. You might find it’s a helluva lot less scary than you think. It’s not an eevil death machine, merely an inanimate object that can be used for good (read fun) or evil.

  57. HarleyRace Comment by HarleyRace

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    Thanx for the link - what a great site. A gaggle of wise and enlightened persons Nazi pantywa…poantywai…fuckhead pussys like me!

    Democratic Underground are MY kind of buttnuggets.

    [Now properly translated (chuckle).  -The Management™]

  58. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Jackboot
    a Sincere happy birthday, by the way! hope your evening is filled with debauchery.

    that’s a good suggestion, but I’d hate to sneak around said spouse. Maybe on his next business trip! Ahah–that could work, but I hate doing things behind his back. I did get to fire a gun years ago–don’t remember what kind–had a hell of a kick–was hard for me to deal with–might have been a 357–enjoyed it

    fuzzhead
    In Tucson, it was the gun-carrying stupid assholes that bothered me. Doesn’t seem to fit you

    B
    poke appreciated, but I’m really not as psycho as I seem.

    What do you do that a miscalculation would have such dire consequences?

  59. chuck Comment by chuck

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    Guns have the 2nd amendment protection, but does that extend to every gun and bullet?

    Carefully read the 2nd ammendment and tell me if there are any conditions placed on what “arms” are included. It is pretty clear. Even a publick skul graduate should be able to understand it (not trying to be irritating). According to the clear text of the 2nd ammendment, all gun control laws going back to and including the original are blatantly and obviously unconstitutional. The simple fact is the right to own arms is inherently a human right we are born with and the Constitution just recognizes and enshrines that right. The Constitution does not grant rights to the people, it only grants powers to the government.

  60. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

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    I’m a professional pyromaniac. :smoke_tb:

  61. HarleyRace Comment by HarleyRace

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    Jackboot, a Sincere happy birthday, by the way!

    Mine just passed. My parents desperately tried to conceeve so I would be born on May Day. Sadly they missed by a few days.

    Only recently did I find out my real birthday. All while growing up they told me it was May 1 and that I was conceeved “with Lenin in mind”

  62. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

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    Harley, ya’ misunderstood ‘em… They said “With linen in her behind.”

  63. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Harley
    Please go away. With one exception, your posts are really annoying. Go study and improve your argumentative skills. You make liberals look like total assholes, which might be true at times. Some of us liberals (okay–DJ and I) are trying to discuss topics. I see now why “troll” is such a pejorative, or do you need to look that up?

  64. Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P. Comment by Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P.

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    Boss, I just knew you wouldn’t be able to resist this one. I about fell off my chair when I first saw that page at DUI. I had to recheck the address bar to make sure of where I really was…

    Should people be able to buy the bullets that go through cop’s protective vests?

    Just a restate of something previously pointed out. Most rifle rounds will go through the average body armor.

    I normally carry an old Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 spl……I like the old turd and he never lets me down.

    Just what I was thinking of getting after my Tanfoglio .45 (though not necessarily an “old turd”). Unfortunately the required $$$ seems not to have materialized.

    Excellent taste in firearms, Xystus. Although, if you keep your eyes open, you can find Bulldogs in the $100-$175 range.

    (Just for reference, when I am working at the range, I carry a Witness .45 Compact Carry, (Ported version), and a .44 Bulldog for back-up.) (Bulldog loaded with Speer Gold Dots, Witness with 230gr JSWC. (no flash from the ports, and accurate as hell. They are loaded to full RN velocity, too.)

    psychochick, should you ever find yourself in my part of the country, (south central Kansas, just for reference (yeah, I know, not a popular tourist destination)), let me know, and I can hook you up with some range time and something to shoot.

  65. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Chuck
    Thanks for the comment. It has already been pointed out to me, but there’s nothing wrong with repetition. To be way too honest, I would probably still favor some gun control, but I would now restrict a lot fewer things.

    Like we’ve discussed before, raving lunatics should not be able to buy guns. (of course, I am excepted from that!)

  66. Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P. Comment by Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P.

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    BTW, the “DUI” was a typo. But I left it. Deliberately.

    (Now, if I could just fix my blasted paragraphs… ^sigh^

  67. Cheapshot911 Comment by Cheapshot911

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    PsvhoChick
    Dat troll has nothing to offer, never had, under this nym or the others.
    He does what I do occaisonally when the dog really isn’t up to a workout. Drive-by bombtossin’.

    At least mine have all been strictly digital.

    And please, before you walk into any range, gunshop, or whatever, SOME STATES,, heve different laws defining what is or isn’t a mental disorder, and what treatment records are used to determine whether firearms are ok or not.

    It’s important not to put the guy at the counter in the position of having to alert the gendarmes.
    Make sure you’re good to go.

    Spend some time at the NRA,, it’s really that important.

  68. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Guido
    Hi, I don’t want to be defensive and humorless, but it was an honest question. I don’t know much about guns and ammo, which I’m sure will come as a great shock. I have since been convinced that it makes sense to sell the ammo, and I didn’t realize rifles could pierce them. It just initially seemed like a bad idea to kill cops in vests (which apparently is a simplistic view). However, that is not the intention of anyone on this site. (except maybe for our real troll–as opposed to me–the partial troll)

  69. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Cheapshot
    Thank you for the link!!! You’re kind of scaring me. I thought if you tried to buy a gun and were dis-qualified, they would send you away. It never occurred to me that they would call the police! Now, I won’t buy a gun for various reasons, so this is an academic question. I would fall under the mental patient category (showing no symptoms currently!). However, medical records are private, and I’ve never been institutionalized. I could probably weasel through, although I would have to lie on the form and hate to lie. Just for the record, mental patients under treatment are way less likely to be violent than the general public. (Santa Barbara News Press) Just like the end of “Psycho”–wouldn’t hurt a fly :)

  70. Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P. Comment by Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P.

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    Hi, I don’t want to be defensive and humorless, but it was an honest question. I don’t know much about guns and ammo,

    I knew that. What I was pointing out was more on the line of “‘cop-killer bullets’ is pretty much of an idiotic distinction to those of us in the gun culture. No, I don’t expect you to know that, and I was not making fun of you for not knowing that.

    Now, a distinction. The current Form 4473 (the federal form you fill out for a firearms transfer), asks if you have ever been “adjudicated mentally defective”. It doesn’t ask if you are under treatment for mental illness.

  71. LC FIAR Comment by LC FIAR

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    I object to any regulation, at all, whatsoever, period, of firearms. Defense is a Human Right, and no Human Right should be regulated. Freedom does not have gradients. Something is either free, or it is not.

  72. LC FIAR Comment by LC FIAR

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    Oh yes, one of my primary reasons why I don’t own any guns is that I don’t trust the government. The Gov requires that you register your weapons. I see that as a list of whom to round up first when the State decides that the Constitution need no longer apply. If that time ever seems imminent, I will be armed, and I will NOT purchase legally.

    I refuse to put myself, voluntarily, on a list of “Enemies of the State.”

  73. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Guido
    Thank you! I admit I had to look that one up.

    “Remove mental disability records from the NICS if a judge determines that the person is no longer a danger to himself or others, or no longer requires involuntary treatment”

    I’ve never required involuntary treatment–so I guess I’m legit

    FAIR
    I’m glad you feel so strongly about individual freedoms. I wouldn’t take most people’s guns away, but when a highly unstable mass murderer who has a record of involuntary committment can legally buy a gun, the process needs to be tweaked. You said there should be absolutely no regulation. Is that for normal people? Do you think criminals and psychos should be able to buy guns? I hope I’m not harassing you.

  74. Unregistered Comment by Draven32

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    Guns have the 2nd amendment protection, but does that extend to every gun and bullet? Should people be able to buy the bullets that go through cop’s protective vests?

    Most of the ‘bullets that go through vests’ that the MSM whines on and on about are RIFLE rounds that the police themselves carry. Rounds designed for warfighting a hundred years ago, or variations on them… and vests still can’t stop them. Many of there calibers are common in hunting rifles. That, and technically, the weapons protected by the second amendment are those with a military use (at least according to U.S. v Miller) which means rifles- and more often than not, most rifle rounds will go through most vests, unless you want to put LEOs into the 16.4 pound Interceptor body armor our troops wear in Iraq.

    Am I correct in remembering that plastic guns could pass through airport security screens? I might be incorrect.

    That is incorrect. The MSM started a huge furor over the possibility, but these ‘plastic guns’ are 2/3 to 3/4 metal (normally, the slide and barrel) by weight, including the casings for bullets- any of which are easily identifiable on airport X-ray machines and are more than enough to trip a metal detector. Consider, the brass casing and bullet for one 9mm round is usually enough to trip a metal detector.

    Btw, psychochick, if you’re really thinking about a gun, start with a .22 rifle and/or pistol. its a good start and my wife loves them.

  75. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    You said there should be absolutely no regulation. Is that for normal people? Do you think criminals and psychos should be able to buy guns? I hope I’m not harassing you.

    There’s a very important difference between overall regulation and very specific regulation, such as in the regulations against criminals being allowed to legally own guns. (Of course, it’s also true that a criminal won’t give a hoot about laws prohibiting him from owning a gun if he really wants one. It sort of goes with the label “criminal”, but we’re talking about the appropriateness of such regulations vs. the actual likelihood that they’ll be followed. Outlawing murder hasn’t stopped murders from happening, but nobody’s suggesting that we should legalize the practice because of that).

    The 2nd Amendment rights of criminals aren’t the only rights of theirs being revoked when we send them to jail either, and we can all agree about the appropriateness of that.

    But that’s not the same as passing a law regulating everybody’s rights for no good reason at all. When you do that, you’re punishing people who haven’t done anything wrong, simply because they might do something wrong in the future, which is no better than castrating all males because they might become rapists one day, or confiscating all children because their mothers might get post-partum depression and murder them.

    The point here is that the two aren’t the same. It is perfectly logical to be against all regulations of rights and, at the same time, being in favor of specific regulations against specific people in cases where you have very good and individual reasons for doing so.

  76. LC FIAR Comment by LC FIAR

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    Excellent rebuke, Emperor. You do have to remember, PC, that with certain crimes, an individual also forfeits certain rights, in some cases this even includes the right to life (death penalty).

    Having proven oneself a threat and treating all citizens as potential threats fall under two separate umbrellas there.

    Misha said it best in the previous comment.

  77. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Emporer and FIAR
    Good argument–I understand the difference. Believe it or not, this thread has gone a long way towards moderating my views on gun control. Your efforts have not been in vain!

    Also, first time I’ve been to the NRA website instead of the Brady one! :)

  78. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Most cops use Level IIA or Level II body armor such armor is borderline against .357 (read: I would not trust lvl II against .357). It is NOT proof against .45ACP .44Magnum .454Casul .41Magnum and so on.

    Level IIA stops .45ACP, .357 Magnum, and 118 grain 9mm JHP with no problem. Know this for a fact from several different experiences, most (fortunately) in a range environment. I currently wear a level IIA and got no worries against any handgun I’m likely to go up against.

    Misha

    One other point I’d like to add is that, when the fecal matter starts flying, impacting rotary devices all over the place, one of the first things to go is your fine motor skills. Unfortunately, even the “simple” action of releasing a mag and inserting a new one falls under “fine motor skills”, which is why we train like crazy doing silly stuff like that to turn it into muscle memory. That way, we won’t have to think about it, we just do, much like we don’t have to think about remembering to breathe.

    Are you sure you’re not an instructor Sire! I couldn’t have said it better myself.

    Sir Christopher
    Welcome to the brotherhood! And damn good choice for a first piece, real sweet! Good on ya.

    PC
    Every point I wanted to make to ya has been covered in detail, so I won’t rehash the excellent comments of my fellow LC’s. I would like to add to the idea about renting a firearm at a range though. There is another element to firearms besides the breath of sweet liberty they represent.

    As I mentioned to you before, I am a firearms instructor (Although probably not the only one here, and Guido has definitely taught even me a few things), and one added benefit to learning to master a firearm is learning the discipline to master your life as well. Holding a gun in your hand is a huge responsibility, owning one even more so. By becoming proficient with a gun, you are training yourself to act deliberately, dedicating yourself to learning what can be a very demanding discipline. Guns are not only good physical exercise, and good muscle training, it is also excellent mental exercise and fantastic stress relief. (As an example, my family just lost a close family friend, a 95 year old lady who has been like a mother to my mom. She was very special to my son also. He was there when she passed and was very upset about it. The Hospice nurses there were concerned about him and wanted him to talk to a “grief counselor”. He politely told them he didn’t need some shrink prodding him about his “feewwwings” and went to the range to blast a few hundred rounds. Problem solved.)

    There have been studies done (sorry read them somewhere, can’t link or quote exactly, just stuck in my head) that back up what I’ve known from anecdotal experience, children exposed to the shooting sports grow up less likely to get in trouble and more likely to be productive citizens.

    Which brings me to my last point RE your hubbie. Shooting can be a wonderful family pass time. Learn it together. It will do you both some good. You don’t have to get a collection like mine or many of the LC’s, but going to the range and training with a qualified instructor can be a life enriching experience. Share it with him.

  79. The Major Comment by The Major

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    One of the most dangerous groups of people I know are politicians either capitalizing on tragedy, or knee-jerking legislation in response to a tragedy. You know, in order to appear as if they are actually doing something productive. Both usually result in crappy laws and eroded rights. If you haven’t joined the NRA, you’d better get a move on!

  80. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >If you haven’t joined the NRA, you’d better get a move on!

    I’m a GOA man myself.

  81. chuck Comment by chuck

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    Sire,
    I’m not sure how to look at it but just for argument’s sake, what constitutionally enumerated right besides 2A do criminals give up after they have served their sentence?

  82. chuck Comment by chuck

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    My gut reaction is if you cannot trust them to re-enter society and exercise their rights responcibly, than you have no business releasing them in the first place.

  83. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    chuck,

    The right to vote, to serve on a jury (not a right per se, it’s part of being a citizen), hold public office, to name a few. There are more, but I’m suffering some cerebral flatulence right now.

  84. chuck Comment by chuck

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    Holding public office is the only thing that is actually enumerated that you mentioned and unlike 2A it has limits written in (age, etc.).

  85. chuck Comment by chuck

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    Voting and jury service are both controlled by statute.

  86. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    True chuck, more privileges of citizenship than enumerated rights.

  87. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Are you sure you’re not an instructor Sire! I couldn’t have said it better myself.

    Dammit, you’re too kind, brother.

    Not as such. I mean, I obviously did a fair bit of instructing as part of the job in the Army and was trained in the noble art of doing so (the cuss words and other colorful manners of speech came as an extra-curricular benefit from the ones who trained me), but I’d hardly call myself an instructor because of it, although I’ve yet to see the crude but effective Army Way™ fail to get a message across.

    I’ve always loved teaching, though, and spent a lot of time in my post-service civilian life tutoring and instructing in a confusing mess of varying subjects. If I can learn it, I can teach it, at least that’s what people kept telling me. I just never earned the right to call it a profession.

    And as to the actual knowledge I’ve managed to gather about the wonderful world of firearms and their proper use and operation (outside of standard issue service weapons in my native military, of course. I doubt that I’ll ever be able to forget that even if I wanted to, which I don’t), I’ve picked up the vast majority of it since I came here from people much wiser and well-versed in the subject, such as yourself.

    I’m just trying to pass on what I’ve learned to the best of my abilities.

    Which brings me to my last point RE your hubbie. Shooting can be a wonderful family pass time. Learn it together. It will do you both some good. You don’t have to get a collection like mine or many of the LC’s, but going to the range and training with a qualified instructor can be a life enriching experience. Share it with him.

    Enormously loud and annoying Mega-DITTOS on that one!

    Shooting is FUN and yes, it truly IS for the whole family! You don’t have to own a gun to truly appreciate and enjoy shooting as a hobby, as a matter of fact I was a member of a shooting club overseas when I was a wee youngster and we weren’t even allowed to own a gun outside of the clubhouse (what I did when I was spending my summers in the country is another matter altogether and is best left unsaid, mheh), but that didn’t in the least detract from the enormous amounts of fun I had.

    Again, it’s FUN, and fun should be shared with the ones you love. And a loaner at the range surely isn’t going to hurt you at home, nor is it going to turn you into frothing murdering machines (a gun at your home isn’t either, but we’ve already gone over that).

    You’ll have lots of fun together, maybe some friendly competition between the two of you, and you’ll learn to understand firearms better in the process, which can help overcoming the fear of them as well. Don’t fear guns. Respect them. And that’s a lot easier to do once you know what they can and, equally importantly, can’t do.

    But, most of all: It’s FUN.

    Did I mention that shooting is fun?

    I think I did. :)

  88. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Crunchie
    Thanks for taking the time with your long post. It never occurred to me to involve hubby! That would be fun. I don’t think he would go for it, though

    1) I haven’t mentioned this, because I already seem like a psycho. I’ve been venting to him about various political figures I want to assasinate, and obviously I’m not going to. I think it worries him, though. Although you guys vent pretty heavily (not necessarily about murders!), so maybe I don’t have to worry about admitting that.

    2) I’ve been hyper, and he is concerned that I am going manic. I do not think so, but families sometimes pick up on things that the individuals miss. According to the professional, the fact that I am sleeping a lot means that I am not.

    So, I think he would be really suspicious if all of a sudden I want to go learn how to shoot guns. I would argue that it sounds like fun, and that it’s recommended by a bunch of people (but I don’t think he would value your advice as much as I do.) I would also argue that it’s in place of buying a gun and a cool thing to do. Aside from dog walks on the beach (for MILES), it would be nice to have an activity to share. (God, he’d be mad at me–he doesn’t want to exist on this blog)

    Actually, it would be REALLY good for me. I’ve got 25 years of rage pent up from my Norman Bates-like childhood, and it’s not healthy to go around with that. It’s not like I go around in a rage. I’m usually very nice to people, although I over-react when people are assholes (witness the misunderstanding–again, I’m so sorry! I had no idea of the true situation). I think firing off rounds would do wonders for me, and I’m quite excited at the idea. It would never have occurred to me, and I thank all the people who suggested it–you, Mrs., Jackboot (who is hopefully drunk and debauched by now). There might be some people I missed. LC Wil invited me to shoot with him in an earlier post, which I thought was really nice.

    That’s interesting about children with guns doing better in life. Do you think it’s because they are entrusted with responsibility and learn discipline?

    Sorry about losing the family friend.

  89. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Sire,
    I’m not sure how to look at it but just for argument’s sake, what constitutionally enumerated right besides 2A do criminals give up after they have served their sentence?

    Oh, I meant during their incarceration. Sorry if I wasn’t entirely clear on that. After their incarceration the only one they give up (and in some cases that can be waived at a later point after much jumping through hoops and barking for biscuits) is, as far as I can think of right now, the right to keep and bear arms.

  90. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Emporer
    Your post must have come up while I was working on the reply to Crunchie’s. It really does sound like a fun thing to do together. I just doubt I can talk him into it. Maybe I could push the angle that it’s good venting and would make me less likely to buy a gun. Aha! Although I have some doubts if I’m up to the physical aspect.

  91. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    PC

    That’s interesting about children with guns doing better in life. Do you think it’s because they are entrusted with responsibility and learn discipline?

    Yup, that and the fact that generally they are introduced to it by the fathers, which means two things, traditional nuclear family, and an involved dad. So both the family involvement and the responsibility and discipline go hand in hand in rearing a well rounded person.

    Sorry about losing the family friend.

    Thank you PC.

    Did I mention that shooting is fun?

    Indeed you did Sire, but just in case someone missed it,

    SHOOTING IS FUN!

  92. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    PC

    Don’t know if it’s a possibility, but why don’t you have the hubbie read this stream? Might help explain yer interest in trying it.

  93. chuck Comment by chuck

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    Oh, I meant during their incarceration. Sorry if I wasn’t entirely clear on that. After their incarceration the only one they give up (and in some cases that can be waived at a later point after much jumping through hoops and barking for biscuits) is, as far as I can think of right now, the right to keep and bear arms.

    Then logically, if we truly believe tha second ammendment is the enumeration of a pre-existing right, how can we support laws that take away that right from someone that has in the eyes of the law, paid their debt to society?
    (This is something I have not really considered before so I am thinking out loud here/)

  94. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Then logically, if we truly believe tha second ammendment is the enumeration of a pre-existing right, how can we support laws that take away that right from someone that has in the eyes of the law, paid their debt to society?

    Actually chuck, I believe that if we as a society say that a person has paid his debt, he should have his civil rights restored. When the moonbats start shrieking about ex-cons having the right to vote, I ask them if they should have ALL of their civil rights restored. They don’t like it when I suggest the 2nd to go along with the right to vote etc.

    Heres my caveat though. They have to actually PAY their debt to society, in full. To me that means serving their full sentence with good behavior, learn a viable trade or skill, complete a probation period, and make their case to a very skeptical clemency board demonstrating that they are ready to rejoin the ranks of citizens.

    As an historical foot note, it wasn’t until the mid 20th century that civil rights were tied to felony convictions. Used to be that once you were released from prison, you’re “record” was pretty much clear. Of course the communication technology then lent itself to that, but part of it was that the person had indeed paid their debt and were released. Of course, they really did repay their debt then also, not like now.

  95. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    crunchie
    Thanks for the advice. Now I’m going to be disagreeable. I assume moonbats are the evil liberals? Or are they the conservatives? I guess I don’t see why someone would object to giving ex-cons the right to vote if they have paid their debt to society.

    I could be wrong, but it seems like jails don’t rehabilitate as much as they used to, so people don’t have job skills. In Cal, they tend to go out with no skills and almost immediately come back in. Our prison system is a mess. Prison health care is under federal receivership, because prisoners were dying from treatable conditions. But I can’t speak for the rest of country. Dammit–I don’t know everything!

  96. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Then logically, if we truly believe tha second ammendment is the enumeration of a pre-existing right, how can we support laws that take away that right from someone that has in the eyes of the law, paid their debt to society?
    (This is something I have not really considered before so I am thinking out loud here/)

    That’s a very good question and one that has caused me no small amount of intellectual anguish as well, because you have a very good point.

    Personally, I find it despicable in the extreme that we constantly harp about “having paid your debt to society” while, at the same time, imposing an additional life sentence that you apparently never can pay for sufficiently. One might say that the lifelong ban from legally owning guns is part of the sentence, but then we should at least have the honesty to come right out and say it, rather than just slipping it in there.

    Another thing is that it’s ridiculously easy to become a “felon” these days. Example: A couple of dumb kids defaced a statue some time ago not too far from here (I forget where) and ended up with a felony charge as a result. Now kindly tell me where the sense is in banning somebody from owning a firearm because they poured paint on a statue. Where is the logical connection between graffiti, no matter how disgusted I am with the practice (and I AM), and propensity for committing firearms related crimes?

    If we want to ban firearms ownership from some criminals, could we at least make the punishment fit the crime, as in being a bit specific about it rather than just using it as a blanket punishment for all crimes classified as felonies?

    Is somebody forging checks more likely to commit murder with a gun? Etc. etc. etc.

    One can argue that some types of criminals should be limited in their access to firearms, but I will demand at least some attempt at making a logical case for it.

    Also, even if you are rehabilitated and you are genuinely interested in turning your life around, that doesn’t mean that your former associates are, and quite a few of them might conceivably be mortally pissed off at you now, particularly if you turned state’s evidence, but not only in those cases. Are we saying that those ex-cons, people genuinely interested in starting from a clean slate, have no right to defend themselves from their former associates? Wouldn’t it make more sense, from the point of view of somebody wanting to survive, to fall in with the old crowd again to avoid trouble? How does that help rehabilitate ex-cons? What’s worse, if the ex-con decides that his personal survival is more important to him than the law and he gets a gun anyway, with the sole intent of using it to defend himself, then he’s up shit creek without a paddle if anybody ever finds out and right back in the slammer, simply for defending his own life.

    There are no easy answers to this one, because I also perfectly understand why you might not want to equip a violent criminal fresh out of the slammer with a firearm, but it’s a question that deserves a lot more time and consideration than it has been given.

  97. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    PC
    Prison isn’t about rehabilitation. It’s about incarceration and punishment. Rehabilitation is up to the individual, just like an alcoholic.

    As I stated I have no problem with an ex-con having his civil rights restored IF he has rehabilitated his self. And IF he has paid his debt to society. The problem is they the debt isn’t being paid. Cons aren’t serving their full sentences and what they do serve is nothing more than a graduate school for criminals. They learn new criminal skills, meet new criminal contacts, get nice and bulked up and learn some really nifty keen new ways to kill a cop during pat down, and get an education on how to work the system thanks to a nice prison library, all paid for by us. Who’s paying who? Check out the Law Enforcement Alliance of America to learn just how bad our penal system is.

    As far as why an ex con shouldn’t be allowed to vote or exercise some other civil liberties, it comes down to citizenship. They have demonstrated by their actions that they do not deserve full citizenship. When they prove that they are again worthy, then they should absolutely have their civil rights restored, IF they prove they are again worthy.

  98. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Misha
    speaking of ex-cons that might not be happy with you: whosarat.com There was an article about it in the NYT (too tired to find link). It’s a database of government informants! I was just appalled. Apparently, they get the info from on-line documents, and NOW the government is thinking of deleting out that info. I checked out the website the day after the article appeared (I think it was May 22), and they couldn’t take new members because their system was swamped. I thought about a one week trial out of curiousity, but refused to give those swine my money.

  99. WayneB Comment by WayneB

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    PC - Here’s another suggestion regarding your husband and shooting:

    Go visit The Imperial Firearms Advisor and contact him to see if there is a Nation of Riflemen volunteer in your area (who will be willing to take you to the range and give some basic instruction), and if there is not, ask for suggestions on how to convince husband that you’re not going to go on a rampage if you go and learn how to shoot.

    Also, you might want to read this essay on the subject by Kim’s wife.

  100. chuck Comment by chuck

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    Another thing is that it’s ridiculously easy to become a “felon” these days

    Actually thinking about the Libby sentenence was part of what led me down this road.
    I just was curious if anyone else had looked at the illogic of claiming the 2A recognized a right we are born with on the one hand and saying it is a priviledge we can withold from people who have made certain mistakes in the past on the other.

  101. Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P. Comment by Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P.

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    (and in some cases that can be waived at a later point after much jumping through hoops and barking for biscuits) is, as far as I can think of right now, the right to keep and bear arms.

    Not any more, Boss. Call your local ATF office and ask for a copy of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide. It is a copy of the relevant statutes governing firearms laws of the Federal Government, (and, if nothing else, is good for insomnia!), in it you will find a note stating the Congress has refused to budget money for investigations by the ATF concerning whether a convicted felon in the process of having his civil rights restored can have his firearms rights restored also.

    If I wasn’t so ragged, I would look for it in my copy, but, since mine is from 2000, the page numbers wouldn’t correspond to the copy you would get.

    All you have to do is call the ATF office and ask for a copy. I called concerning an importation question, and, when I picked up my copy, they had nice little post-it notes stuck in at the relevant places.

    In fact, ask about restoration of civil rights, and you will probably have that information marked for you.

    Like I said, it’s good for insomnia, and it will also let you trace the progression of firearms laws at the Federal level, since everything is in there, in original form and as amended.

    crunchie

    (Although probably not the only one here, and Guido has definitely taught even me a few things)

    Thanks for the props from a professional, bro. It’s what I do for my sanity, and, besides, I LIKE to teach… Should have gone into teaching, I’m a thinkin’. It would probably have been more fun than what I am doing now. But I was always too tongue-tied when I was younger. Too bad I can’t reset to twenty-some years ago, knowing what I know now.

  102. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Guido

    Too bad I can’t reset to twenty-some years ago, knowing what I know now.

    Ain’t that the truth! Hell, the possibilities in the romance category alone are enough to put me in a drool induced coma!

    besides, I LIKE to teach

    Me too Guido, although it took me awhile to get the B-52’s out of my stomach the first time! The greatest thing about being a firearms instructor is knowing that something you teach just might save someones life, all the while hoping they never have to find out.

  103. Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P. Comment by Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P.

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    Hell, the possibilities in the romance category alone are enough to put me in a drool induced coma!

    Damn straight!

    The greatest thing about being a firearms instructor is knowing that something you teach just might save someones life, all the while hoping they never have to find out.

    Also true. And I try my damndest to get across to my students that dropping some crackhead is always the last resort. And I try to give them an idea of what it’s going to be like afterwards. But I also tell them that if it comes down to either their spouse or children and or some POS being on their feet afterwards, go with family.

  104. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    And I try to give them an idea of what it’s going to be like afterwards.

    That is, unfortunately, an all too neglected discipline of firearms instruction Guido. Glad to hear you do the same. Have you ever checked out Force Science Research Center? They are doing amazing studies on all aspects of lethal force, from reaction times (they’ve shown how easy it is for a suspect to be shot in the back by studying he recognition and physical reaction times of pulling the trigger, even got two London cops off of murder charges), to the effects of neuropeptides on critical incident performance, to effective post lethal force debriefing for LEO’s. Check em out, a wealth of info.

  105. Nanashi Comment by Nanashi

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    We need guns because we haven’t yet figured out how to clone Chuck Norris. :D

    I object to any regulation, at all, whatsoever, period, of firearms. Defense is a Human Right, and no Human Right should be regulated. Freedom does not have gradients. Something is either free, or it is not.

    Exactly. “A little bit free” is akin to saying “a little bit pregnant”.

    Interesting from the same morons that whine about those poor, “Mom and Pop,” businesses that are supposedly FORCED out of busines by the evil, oppressive Wal-Mart-type department stores. They are not supposed to have to adjust their business practices to, “changing conditions.”

    That’s it in a nutshell. They sure have issues when a co-op goes under fails to adjust to the free market, don’t they?