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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » No
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(Via The Jawa Report).

Bill Kristol, in re: the Scooter Libby Show Trial, wonders:

Will Bush pardon Libby? Apparently not–even if it means a man who worked closely with him and sought tirelessly to do what was right for the country goes to prison. Bush spokeswoman Dana Perino, noting that the appeals process was underway, said, “Given that and in keeping with what we have said in the past, the president has not intervened so far in any other criminal matter and he is going to decline to do so now.”

So much for loyalty, or decency, or courage. For President Bush, loyalty is apparently a one-way street; decency is something he’s for as long as he doesn’t have to take any risks in its behalf; and courage–well, that’s nowhere to be seen. Many of us used to respect President Bush. Can one respect him still?

That’s a rhetorical question, right, Bill?

Damn, you almost had me going there.

Jorge, given his track record regarding backing up his friends, is firmly on the top ten of people I don’t want to find myself in a foxhole with.

At the first sign of enemy fire, he’d shoot me in the back and apologize to the enemy for not doing so sooner.

Asshole.

109 Responses to “No”
  1. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    If you really want to engage in some wishful thinking..it could be that to let the appeal go through, there’s a chance that Libby could be found innocent. That way he’s clean. If he gets a pardon, he’s still guilty.

    But knowing Jorge…he truly doesn’t give a flying rat’s ass about those that served him loyally. He’s enjoying getting his blow jobs from the illegals. He’s already told us to go f*ck ourselves on a rusty fence post…why not his staff?

  2. Unregistered Comment by Cheryl

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    Mosquito Nads hasn’t pardoned the two Border Patrol agents imprisoned for doing their jobs. American soldiers are languishing in prison for killing the enemy. Not that I consider those imprisonments “criminal matters.” Why on Gaia would he pardon Scooter Libby? Misha, you say Arbusto would shoot you in the back and then apologize to the enemy for not doing it sooner. That about sums it up.

  3. Unregistered Comment by Mark6591

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    No way, Misha! He would not; unless they were illegals and he gave them citizenship first, then let them steal everything you have, and sent your estate the bill.

  4. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    The lack of pardon can’t be out of concern for his legacy…

  5. Alan K. Henderson Comment by Alan K. Henderson

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    If I were Bush, I’d want to see how the appeal goes first. An appeal, if done right, has the opportunity to stomp the precedents set by the case - that a man can be convicted of perjury just because he and a reporter disagree over whether a conversation took place, and neither he nor the reporter can prove his side of the story.

    Reason 814 why I am not President: since there’s just as much evidence against Tim Russert as there is against Scooter Libby, if the appeal fails I pardon them both. And I make sure Russert is at the press conference where I make the announcement so I can see the look on his face.

  6. Unregistered Comment by thirteen28

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    Oh, this is easy.

    Scooter Libby needs to change his name to Scutierez Libez and tell Jorge that he was an undocumented worker doing a job Americans won’t do. He’ll be pardoned a few minutes thereafter.

  7. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    Jorge, given his track record regarding backing up his friends

    Whadda you mean? He backs up for plenty of friends, trousers at half-mast, ankles firmly gripped and the Presidential Colon eagerly anticipating a visit.

    Take notes there will be a test after this dichotomy of in justice:

    Scooter Libby vs. United States

    William (Cold Cash) Jefferson vs. United States

  8. Dick Comment by Dick

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    I voted for him, twice.

    (Hanging head and walking away in shame…)

  9. BauerPower Comment by BauerPower

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    Dick, me too man. I thought we had a fairly conservative dude, how wrong we were……

    OK, here’s a thought, if Clinton pardoned people for far worse, why won’t GDub give a break to some of those on trumped up bullshit charges? Why not? He hasn’t passed much in Congress worth a damn, or nothing that hinged on the powerful 2 Senator Majority of the Democraps……

    Ugh, I miss Reagan.

  10. Cheapshot911 Comment by Cheapshot911

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    Don’t feel so bad Dick,, it was the better choice at the time.
    At least we’re not still negotiating with the taliban,,handing lollipops out to a buncha’ equally murderous thugs tho’.

    ‘Hope that gambit works.

    Fred. Yes. Fred.

  11. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Hi,
    I know none of you value the MSM, but Bush has been accused of being overly loyal. He kept Rumsfeld on longer than people think he should have. He’s standing by Gonzalez. I do understand that the immigration issue can be viewed as a huge betrayal.

    I don’t want to ignite a firestorm, but the Libby thing wasn’t just one reporter. It was something like 6 interviews over a 4 week period. I guess the sentence seems a little harsh, but if I had anything to do with outing a CIA agent (and contrary to some reports, she was covert), I would be charged with treason and go to jail for decades. I guess if you view him as a dedicated public servant, you would think he was screwed unfairly.

    As to Jefferson, I still think he is a crook who should go to jail. I don’t care if he’s a Democrat. I do my hardcore reading late at night after most of the threads have shut down. It was Nancy Pelosi that spear-headed getting him kicked off the Ways and Means committee. It’s not like the Democrats have any great love for him. His indictment was 94 pages, which apparently is unusually long. I think this will get A LOT of coverage in the MSM. We would have to define a lot. I made this offer to FIAR, but I would bet $100 with any one that his trial and sentencing do get a lot of coverage. That might be extreme (who me?) And I think he will get serious jail time; his corruption was pretty extensive. What I find weird is that his constituents still love him–not just the blacks, also working class whites. But then I don’t have a good understanding of Louisiana (can’t spell it) politics.

    This is a total aside (and hopefully not a hijacking). Jackboot–just to show how seriously I take you, I had a dream last night that I got a $90 fine in the mail for thread hijacking! I think it’s hilarious. (hope you aren’t hung over)

  12. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    PS. I think I made a factual error. Libby didn’t do the actual outing–it was just obstruction of justice. Sorry–mental lapse

  13. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    Bush would pardon everyone of the inmates at Guantanamo Bay before he would pardon Libby. It makes me sick!

  14. Light29ID Comment by Light29ID

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    Christ and I’m down to my last half of Beam.

    This is beyond Libby…this goes to the core of Bush’s administration. He’s is a moral coward in every sense of the word. I’m beginning to think (G-d help me) that maybe, just maybe that the reasons for invading Iraq weren’t WMD’s, terrorist threats, and all the rest. That maybe he did it because Daddy didn’t finish the job the first time and he wanted payback because Daddy lost re-election because of it. If it’s true, then this little twerp is worse than the Clintoon’s.

    Tell me I’m wrong…please…somebody…

  15. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    He’s standing by Gonzalez.

    Here’s a hint. Gonzalez has done NOTHING wrong, despite the OUTRAGE, OUTRAGE I SAY, that the perfectly legal firings have caused among the dhimicratic underwear set. If he didn’t stand by him, then the betrayal would be complete; the only thing worse that W could do is go out in public and literally piss on the citizenry while singing “La Cookaracha”. The way things are going, I figure that it is only a matter of time.

  16. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    I know none of you value the MSM, but Bush has been accused of being overly loyal. He kept Rumsfeld on longer than people think he should have. He’s standing by Gonzalez.

    He stands by Gonzalez because he supports amnesty and the DoJ and the prosecutors are doing nothing about enforcing current immigration law.

    It was Nancy Pelosi that spear-headed getting him kicked off the Ways and Means committee.

    Speaking of Indictments….she needs to be brought up on charges. According to the Logan Act, she broke the law by conducting foreign relations without given the authority to do so.She was consorting with the enemy during the time of war. § 953. Private correspondence with foreign governments.

    Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

    This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply himself, or his agent, to any foreign government, or the agents thereof, for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects.

    1 Stat. 613, January 30, 1799, codified at 18 U.S.C. § 953 (2004).
    She is worse than “Cold Cash” Jefferson.

  17. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    TheCount
    Why is it evil that Pelosi went to Syria and there is no mention of the Republican congressmen that also went? Ok, you can quote chapter and verse (I think that’s great–I’m not being snarky). You know way more about the laws that I do. I don’t have the citations at hand, but some Middle East experts think that interacting with Syria could help reign in the terrorists in Iraq. Obviously, I don’t expect any one here to agree with that. But to me, to engage with an enemy in hopes of making them an ally is not like traitorously encouraging them to take military action against us.

    Interesting perspective on Gonzalez. I will have to ponder that.

    Blackiswhite
    The reasonableness of the firings is a partisan issue that I do not think we will be able to agree on. (The world will continue) Normally, you only fire the attorneys for grave misconduct. Well, these guys were top-notch apparently. Democratic voter fraud should be pursued. Well, most of these people didn’t find any worth pursuing in their area. Carol Lam was prosecuting Dusty Fogges for some serious corruption. Her firing was particularly questionable. I know I’m trollesque, but this issue really does make me froth.

    There is also the racing to the bedside of Ashcroft when he was really out of it to get his signature for the warrantless domestic spying bill. And Ashcroft had designated someone else as acting attorney general while he had his gallbladder operation. This was just hours after his surgery when no one was supposse to both. Ashcroft and Mueller were ready to resign over that–it’s not like it’s just some left-wing issue.

    And don’t get me wrong, I’m very much in favor of catching terrorists (seems like a matter of self-preservation) But when did their spying before, it took the FBI agents away from more productive activities chasing down phone numbers, and when they did actually find a terrorist, the person was already known from other investigations. I know you give up some rights in times of war, but this doesn’t seem worth it.

    I don’t have enough of a grip on the data mining the NSA is doing–apparently all e-mail and phone calls are subjected to analysis. There is something called a Narus box that is key and can process 10 gigabytes a second. But I’m not an IT person, so I really don’t know all that much about it. There was a former CIA lawyer quoted on “Frontline” that said that people think they will be fine, because they aren’t a terrorist, but that innocent people would get caught up on it. I’m not sure–is PBS evil here?

  18. Unregistered Comment by LC TGregg

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    “Why is it evil that Pelosi went to Syria and there is no mention of the Republican congressmen that also went?”

    Because if any Republican Congressmen went, one suspects they had the adminstration’s approval. It’s one thing for a congressman to engage in diplomacy with the approval of POTUS, but quite another to engage it on one’s own.

  19. Unregistered Comment by LC TGregg

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    And believe me, I’m all for the Logan Act being employed against anybody who deserves it. I don’t know that Pelosi does, it depends on what BushCo wanted. But if any American (and especially a government official) went over there to undermine the President, time for jail. I don’t care about the parties of either person. If Clinton was in the Whitehouse and McCain went to Syria to say something like “Just ignore that Clinton blowhard, we’ll be keeping the chains on him” I’d be first in line to see him behind bars.

    It’s one thing to speak out here. It’s quite another to go to foreign countries and conspire against the President.

  20. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    Normally, you only fire the attorneys for grave misconduct.

    No. Normally, they are fired when a new administration from a different party takes office. The positions are not tenured, nor are they appointed for life. They serve at the pleasure of the President.

    As for grave misconduct, the USA from Washington sat on his hands and did nothing to investigate the serious questions created by the chicanery in the People’s Republic of King County during the numerous recounts in our last gubanatorial election, despite being presented with evidence of vote fraud and election tampering.

    As for the “warrantless domnestic spying” meme, this is one attorney who remains unswayed by all of the passionate handwringing engaged in by those on the left who are worried that Uncle will overhear them talking to their pusher about their secret stash of creeper. No doubt a manifestation of the paranoia induced by years of smoking marijuana and the narcisism that found a continuing justification for ‘doing one’s own thing’ all those years. Uncle doesn’t give a shit. If he was serious about a drug war, possession would become a capital offense. He wants to catch those who want to kill us all, even the creeper-smokers, and having nothing to hide, I have no problem with that.

    As for the productive activities of the FBI, I haven’t seen any statistics that indicate a reduction in their effectiveness since the WOT began. I agree that it maybe duplicating work done by other agencies, but this can be addressed by letting them coordinate their activities and share information–something still considered unacceptable by our asshatted Congresscritters.

  21. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    LC TGregg
    Oh, okay. I still don’t think it was evil of her to have gone, but that gives me a much better understanding of why people are so upset about it.

    Sometimes these views really are foreign to me.

  22. Cheapshot911 Comment by Cheapshot911

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    Why is it evil that Pelosi went to Syria

    She has no sense of statemanship.
    International negotiations require the advantage of a unified, singular, accountable entity to address.
    That being the POTUS or his assigns.
    She usurps her travel priv’leges, give’s the enemy the notion that we are divided (very very bad), and makes statements that are devastating to standing official position.
    Brochure chasing, strategically stupid Ding-bat.

  23. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Blackiswhite
    That’s cool you are an attorney. I know that the attorneys all turn over at the start of a new administration, but it is unusual to remove them during their tenure.

    So Mueller and Ashcroft are left-wing? Doesn’t that put you kind of out there? Personally, my heavy drug use was 25 years ago. Call me paranoid (and to some degree, it’s true), my concern is disagreeing with government policies. I’m pretty insignificant, so I doubt I will have a problem. I don’t like being spied on unless it’s necessary to catch terrorists, and I’m not convinced that full-scale blanket spying is that efficient. I think the FBI has done a fabulous job in preventing terrorism here. Maybe the data mining does help catch them–don’t know enough about it. As for the meme thing–bite me for having a different, but apparently commonly expressed view. It’s not like I sit there wearing tinfoil.

    Many years ago, and I don’t remember where, someone was talking about the Echelon project. This woman had said her son “bombed” at something–sports or school play. And there she went, into the “bomb” database.

  24. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    OK Cheapshot
    You’re starting to convince me. You guys and gals are such a bad influence! :)

    Now I’m salivating to go to a shooting range.

    (Somehow the bolding will be all screwed up. I never make mistakes, so it can’t be from me!)

  25. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    Why is it evil that Pelosi went to Syria

    Ask the dissidents in Syria itself why Pelosi is evil.

    Her brand of narcissism gets people killed.

  26. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    (and contrary to some reports, she was covert)

    No she wasn’t PC. She was an analyst. She hadn’t been in the field for over 5 years. The law sets the time limit as 5 years proceeding the “outing”. And in addition, there is question that she EVER had been covert.

    It was common knowledge that she worked at the CIA, right down to her agency parking decal and her own Vanity Fair and cocktail circuit bragging. If she was covert, then I’m freeking Jack Ryan.

    One last thought. Scooter was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice. Lets throw in subornation of perjury, witness tampering, abuse of power, and using public agencies to obstruct justice. Does any of that sound familiar?

  27. Dick Comment by Dick

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    Psychochick,
    Alot of what you see here is simply common decency and honesty. We don’t do black helicopters, (anymore anyway, but that was my youth), wars for oil, or government plots to rule the world.
    Actually, the idea of any of those things would be pretty ludicrous, because let’s be honest, it’s mostly a shithole that needs serious dental work, so what would be the point?
    Come back to the fold. We will welcome you with open arms.

  28. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Dick
    Thank you. I didn’t mean to imply I was leaving–just being a little snarky to a snarky post. You must mean the thing about “bad influence”–that was a joke that I was becoming more conservative (except for the spying thing).

    crunchie
    I bow to your superior knowledge
    Who is Jack Ryan?

  29. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Who is Jack Ryan?

    He is a Tom Clancy character that is in most of his books. Ever see “Hunt for Red October”? Alec (I’m leaving the country if Bush gets elected, but I won’t really leave) Baldwin played Jack Ryan. Harrison Ford played Jack in a few of the Clancy movies he did. And Ben Affleck played a younger Jack in “Sum of All Fears”. Which if you want to find out how badly they murdered Clancy’s book in that movie…rent the DVD and listen to it with the commentary on with the Director and Clancy. His first comment was…”I’m the guy who wrote the book they ignored.”
    Plus if you want to get a military viewpoint on that movie..watch it with a retired USAF guy. I watched it with Vulcanrider once and he mutilated that movie. So don’t go thinking that Hollywood made an accurate portrayal when they put that one out.

  30. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    PC

    Who is Jack Ryan?

    Jack Ryan is the main character in Tom Clancy’s novels. He starts off as an analyst for the CIA, a reluctant public servant. Through the course of the novels he goes through several postings, eventually ending up being nominated as VP (he was Director NSA at the time) when the sitting VP resigns over a sex scandal. He’s waiting in the wings of a Joint Session of Congress when a Japanese pilot of a 747 smashes it into the Capitol Building, decapitating the Govt. and making Ryan POTUS. That was written quite a few years before 9/11 BTW. Then there is a war with a United Arab Republic headed by Iran, a bio terror attack on the US (aerosolized Ebola virus attack at the Super Bowl), a bio attack by eco-terrorists, you name it. Amazing stuff! And all to possible.

    Clancy writes intelligence and foreign affairs thrillers so realistic it’s spooky. If you can keep track of multiple plot lines, seemingly completely unrelated, and enjoy a book that keeps you up until 5 AM reading it, then Clancy is your man. Be warned though, he is a conservative and he very well may complete your transformation to the dark side, mwuhahaha.

  31. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Oh yeah, I’ll second Mrs M (the other nekkid GLOR), don’t watch the movies. They completely butcher Clancy’s books, even allowing for necessary editing for length, they suck in comparison!

  32. LittleRott84 Comment by LittleRott84

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    Here’s a hint. Gonzalez has done NOTHING wrong, despite the OUTRAGE, OUTRAGE I SAY, that the perfectly legal firings

    To me, it’s not about what he did, it’s about what he DIDN’T do, which was fire that lying SOB Johnny Sutton.
    What he did to those agents should have gotten them an automatic mistrial, and the very least a new trial.

  33. LC Scott Comment by LC Scott

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    Sadly I’ve come to trust Bush about as much as fat Teddy to drive me of a bridge.

    PC Here ya go.

  34. MasterGuns, Imperial Marine Comment by MasterGuns, Imperial Marine

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    Valerie Plame was not covert.

    She had a “Langley” parking sticker on her car.

    She is listed in “Who’s Who” as married to her husband.

    Her husband introduced her many times as “my wife who works at the CIA”.

    Her phone number was listed in the gov’t phone directory for the DC area complete with her name, department, and suite number. I looked that one up before it disappeared.

    She has not been “covert” for more than 5 years any more than I have been. And I actually still do hide my identity as I was advised to.

    Libby is convicted of obstruction of justice on a crime that was never committed.

    Semper Fi

  35. Unregistered Comment by Tennessee Budd

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    Didn’t see it myself, but I understand Fred Thompson answered the question very well–not would Jorge, but would Fred, pardon Libby.
    As for Clancy, as in most cases, the book is better. I don’t think I’ve seen any of the movies other than Red October, but I’d rather build my own image anyway. I dread the day somebody makes a “Dark Tower” series, but some fool will.

  36. maxxdog Comment by maxxdog

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    And so, another soul is drawn into the “Darkside”.

    PC, Are you starting to see the web of deception the media spins? They keep telling the same lie over until it’s believed. The headlines proclaimed her a “covert agent” and that is what the public believes.
    Look at Abu Graihb, the NYT ran it front page over 60 times IIRC. People now think that putting skivvies on someone’s head is torture and naked pyramids are inhumane yet tend to ignore the beheadings, the booby trapping of childrens bodies, the hanging of women for adultery because they had the nerve to accuse a man of rape, the slaughter of young girls on their way to school etc, etc.

    BTW, you should only negotiate with enemies from a position of strength. A boot on their throat comes to mind as a good starting point.

    And just to stay on topic: No he won’t! Fuckhead!

  37. Cheapshot911 Comment by Cheapshot911

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    and naked pyramids are inhumane

    Aww, Someone’s never been Hashing!

    They jog, they drink, they jog, they build nekkid pyramids, they drink,,

  38. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    PC: I believe Pelosi violated the Logan Act when she told Syria that Israel was willing to come to the table with peace talks with them. Israel quickly came out and stated THEY DID NOT EVER say they wanted to go into peace talks with Syria. Pelosi was acting against the Bush Administration’s stance concerning this. Besides, Condoleeza Rice has the authority to act on the president’s behalf NOT Nancy Pelosi, especially when it comes to the mideast.

    As for the other Republican, I knew one went, but did he actively engage in restructuring of foreign policy? No, he did not. If he went, he went at the behest of the president to keep an eye on the others.

    Also Syria, cannot be trusted. They are currently in league with Iran and Hezbollah in Lebanon. Syria does not want peace with the US because we are allies of Israel. They want the destruction of the United States and Israel as much as Amadinejad and Bin Laden.

  39. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    Many years ago, and I don’t remember where, someone was talking about the Echelon project. This woman had said her son “bombed” at something–sports or school play. And there she went, into the “bomb” database.

    Ma’am, several years ago, a friend of mine who is a fed and I purposely used the words “Bush”, “bomb”, and “president” in a conversation to purposely trip the Eschelon program. In the 10 years since, I have yet to get a visit from the feds, or notice any surveilance.

    Who is Jack Ryan? Criminey. Next you’ll be asking “Who is John Clark?”

    As for the movies, I liked Clear and Present Danger. If they did it right, Without Remorse could be terriffic, but I can’t think of any one in Hollyweird sufficiently badassed to pull it off.

    Bite yerself. It is a meme because it makes you sound as alarmist as algore, and because almost no surveilence subjects will ever know they are the subject of said surveilence, which makes the issue akin to the falling tree making a sound if no one is around to hear.

    Mueller? *shrugs*. Ashcroft? I’m more freaking qualified to be the AG than he was.

  40. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    TheCount
    You seem very knowledgable. I’m convinced.
    I was going to call you Mr. Count, but then you could be Ms. or Mrs.

    Maxxdog
    This will get me kicked out of the darkside. I don’t know what counts as a meme, since I don’t do the talking points thing. The fact that this these people are evil and do inhumane, horrible, evil things is not in dispute. Opposing the treatment of prisoners at Abi Graid does not at all mean that you favor the evil behavior. I don’t think we should suspend the Geneva Conventions, even though Gonzalez thinks they are quaint. Now I am very much in favor of not beheading people, etc. It’s utterly barbaric and inexcusable. There is some question of whether the AG issues have hurt us in the world. I think there is room for a debate about it, but not the insurgents’ behavior. This engaged couple was flogged, because they were walking down the street side by side. Psycho! I’m really not down on the killing of whole families because they are the wrong ethnic group, either.

    Apparently you are right about the media being misleading about the Valerie Plame thing. That would suggest to me that other things are also being mispromoted.

    Mrs. M and crunchie
    Thank you. have never read any Clancy. love thrillers. sound great. weighted down with political tomes

  41. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Blackiswhite
    Sorry if I was too rude to you. I’ve been accused of being too timid, and a meme did sound like an insult.

    If surveillance would mean that I would be left alone, then that’s fine. However, with all these terrorist plots these days, surveillance might not be so genteel. And don’t forget, I’m on the wrong side of the street. I really doubt a conservative lawyer would have much to worry about.

  42. Unregistered Comment by LC TGregg

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    PC, somebody did out Plame. Most everybody knows who it was. They have not been charged. Do you know who it was?

  43. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Sorry for the “incessant posting.” I just read a really depressing article about the experiences of a female journalist in Saudi Arabia. I didn’t know they couldn’t vote. We complain about the Taliban’s treatment of women (justifiably!), but Saudi Arabia doesn’t sound that great. It’s a sizable article:

    http://www.latimes.com/columnone

  44. maxxdog Comment by maxxdog

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    I don’t know what counts as a meme, since I don’t do the talking points thing.

    Buwahahaha! You have got to be kidding me!
    Who are you trying to bullshit?

  45. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    LC TGregg
    No, I do not know. From your tone, I would guess you think a Democrat. I have read speculation about Karl Rove. I really don’t think it’s a Democrat. Would Libby have risked what he did for a mere Democrat?

    I await your comments, but I’m going to watch “Criminal Minds.” I can pop in on the commercials.

  46. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    maxxdog
    dammit, I don’t really know. I’ve never been on a blog before. By the way, I don’t bullshit. I mean everything I say. I may be ironic on occasion, but that’s about it. I’ve gathered that it’s some sort of commonly held view that’s been discredited, but that’s just a guess. I DON’T REALLY KNOW!

  47. maxxdog Comment by maxxdog

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    You want to learn about Muzzies and jihadis in particular?
    http://counterterrorismblog.org/
    http://www.memri.org/
    http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/
    http://jihadwatch.org//

    Go do some reading at these places

  48. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    Smoking Gun: Torture Al-Qaeda Style

    PC:

    Look at the link I just gave you. I have my issues with the Patriot Act, however, because of Political Correctness, we cannot profile people of Muslim Origins. It is true; A lot of Muslims ARE NOT Terrorists, however, most terrorists are in fact Muslim. When you look at the Abu Gharib situation and parallel it to the tactics Al-Qaeda uses….THERE IS NO COMPARISON.

    You talk about the Geneva Conventions, that is great. Unfortunately, Geneva Conventions do not mean dick to Islamofacists. Every Tactic they use goes AGAINST Geneva. That is why they are rotting (comfortably I might add) at Guantanamo Bay. Their rules are: There are no RULES. That is why they are the greatest threat to civilization and more importantly, why they need to be stamped out utterly. Political Correctness and a naive and complacent society, makes us even more in danger.

    One More thing concerning Geneva Conventions PC. I do not know how much History you know so, I will let you in on some that will hopefully open your eyes concerning this topic. In 1928, President Hoover along with 60 other nations signed the Kellogg-Briand Pact. This Pact (also known as the Pact of Paris, not to be confused with the Treaty of Paris), had a main objective, It basically said that WAR IS ILLEGAL. Great Idea, Right?!?!? WRONG! Among the Signers, were Japan, Italy, and Germany. In less than a decade, Japan declared war on Manchuria in 1931. We all know about Germany in 1938. Now how does this coincide with the topic of the Geneva Conventions? It is just another example of Naive politicians making “FEEL GOOD” laws. Just because you outlaw murder, does not mean it is suddenly going to stop. Also, when you have an Anti-American (almost traitorous) Media, Marxist Professors talking about politics when it is not in the course description brainwashing students, Idiots parroting “Islam is a Peaceful Religion”, when it obviously is not, Politicians playing General when they have no idea about warfare and tactics…you begin to have chaos…and Al-Qaeda LOVES IT. They see us going around carrying our pocket copy of Chomsky and Geneva Conventions and are smiling. They say look at those complacent idiot infidels, they dont have a will to fight. Let us keep recruiting suicide bombers and planting roadside bombs…The useful idiots will do the rest. We will keep torturing and they will keep posturing. Sooner or later, they will fold. PC, these idiots have no conception of decency, how are they supposed to respect rule of law (unless it is Sharia Law)?

    Just keep the history I just shared with you in your mind when Pelosi wants to negotiate with Syria and other terrorist trash. Keep it in mind that link I gave you when you see on TV of another torture victim getting his body burned with a blow torch and a power drill rammed through his hand ( If the Media even reports it), then try to picture of the terrorist with Panties on his head at Abu Ghraib. Then see if we “broke” Geneva Conventions. Then ask yourself, are we TRULY, the bad guys here? Then maybe you will finally grasp at the lengths that we must go and understand the lengths Al-Qaeda has already taken and are willing to go further.

  49. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    I don’t think we should suspend the Geneva Conventions,

    We haven’t PC. Some of what happened at Abu Grahib was criminal by the UCMJ, not by the Geneva Accords. In fact, according to the Geneva Accords, every terrorist or insurgent we capture can be legally, summarily, shot on the spot. No “trial”, not even a hearing. No uniform, no identifying insignia, therefore either an illegal combatant or spy, both of which may be shot on sight.

    If any thing we are adhering to the spirit of the Geneva Accords beyond what the letter says, and even more so adhering to our values as a nation.

    No illegal enemy combatant has been “tortured” while under US control.

    And guess what, even if we did torture (which BTW I am opposed to real torture on both practical [it don’t work] and moral reasons)the enemy, so fucking what. When you consider what they do to their captives, I don’t really give a rats ass what happens to them.

    And don’t pull out the line that they will treat our troops the way we treat theirs, that only works with rational and civilized opponents, like the way nuclear deterrence worked with the Soviets. We treat the jihadis with kid gloves, they behead innocent civilians.

    I’ll give you an anecdote on this. My uncle was a WWII Marine. He was on Guadalcanal, the first time we tangled with the Nips in a ground campaign. Our first real battle with them was at the Tenaru River. We slaughtered them as they made a foolish assault against our MG positions. After the battle was over they went out to police the battlefield. A corpsman went to treat a wounded Jap. The Jap bayoneted him. The next one had a grenade pulled on him. A Jap who was acting dead jumped a Marine and slit his throat. Remember, they were out there to treat the wounded enemy, the way the laws of land warfare and humanity call for. They were ambushed for their compassion. After that, for the remainder of the war, every wounded Jap was shot on site and every dead Jap was shot again, just to be sure. We started off nice, the Japs played dirty and reaped the fucking whirlwind.

    If I sound a little pissed talking about that it’s because comparing our treatment of captives to the enemies is a disgusting insult to our troops.

    When liberals try and bring up the Geneva Accords, they should have it shoved up their ass because all they know about it is they can try and use it as a tool against our war effort.

  50. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    BTW PC, none of that diatribe was meant as a personal insult towards you, my language just got a little heated talking about a sore subject with me.

  51. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    And guess what, even if we did torture (which BTW I am opposed to real torture on both practical [it don’t work] and moral reasons)

    Somebody rang? My favorite subject.

    Now, just to clarify (and I know that you know this, Crunchie, so consider it a clarification for the benefit of les autres), let’s all agree to what we call “torture” here, since the definition has been distorted to the point where it bears no resemblance to what it used to mean. Just ask St. Andrew of the Sacred Bleeding Heart what he calls “torture.”

    Torture, in the traditional sense of the word, means all the nasty stuff we’ve read about the Spanish Inquisition and similar institutions, i.e. cutting off of body parts, mutilation, gouging of eyes etc. Or, to use a servicable, if not perfect, shorthand definition, “interrogation techniques focused on the infliction of physical pain leading to permanent bodily damage.” Not a perfect definition, but it will do for the purpose of this comment.

    Now, it is not true that it “never works.” It works quite well at times, but the problem is that it’s inexcusably brutal and clumsy, ofttimes leading to undesirable and useless results. Much like five layers of indirect HE certainly can do the job of a wrecking ball when demolishing a house, but more often than not it’ll devastate the neighborhood as well and, on top of that, sometimes it will miss altogether, “complete misses” in interrogation meaning that the subject dies, is rendered useless or babbles off incorrect and useless information just to stop the pain.

    Add to that that it is, indisputably, morally reprehensible as well as needlessly brutal, and you’ve got the reason why it isn’t used by people who know what they’re doing with very few and unusual exceptions.

    It’s like carving a marble statue with a sledgehammer. Sure, you can do it, but why would you want to?

    The reason that I bristle whenever the “torture never works” canard comes up is that it, other than being patently untrue, in combination with the ever-softening definition of torture in the public eye, basically amounts to saying “any interrogation method beyond asking nicely is useless.”

    Again, I know that’s not what you meant, Crunchie, but I try to stomp that interpretation every time I see it.

    Here endeth the lesson. ;)

  52. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    That is basically what I was getting at Sire. More often than not the subject gives up false info just to make the pain stop. My basic premise is that physical torture (as you defined, which is essential to the debate BTW) is way less effective than psychological techniques and aggressive interrogation. You can break most people faster psychologically than you can physically, and with more trustworthy results. Physical torture will get results, but their veracity can be questionable to say the least.

    Two techniques I learned from an old Master Sergeant who was in the intelligence field.

    1. You have an Arab prisoner. Question him. When he doesn’t talk, say that you’ve had it and that he just lost his last friend. Blindfold him and put him on a flight across country and back again, ending up in Texas, or a similarly hot and dry place. Bring him into a specially constructed room made to look like the inside of a middle eastern building. When you remove the blindfold he sees a very pissed looking man in an IDF uniform. You enter and tell him if he doesn’t cooperate he belongs to the Israelis. He’ll talk.

    2. Show a prisoner pictures of the outside of his house, the inside of his house, and of his family. He’ll get the message.

    Mild (my definition) physical discomforts like temperature extremes, stress positions, waterboarding, all serve to break down the mental will to resist, not the physical.

  53. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    crunchie
    I’m glad that wasn’t meant against me. Hopefully you know me well enough to know that I wouldn’t support policies to be against the war effort. I didn’t really mean to compare our treatment to their treatment. They just kill our captives. I think it’s obvious we give much better treatment than they do, but then we aren’t evil. I didn’t mean any slight to our troops.

    I was thinking about how many will come with PTSD. I read this piece about active duty soldiers getting help. This one guy was cursed at a lot by his commander over it, and when he missed training exercises for doctor’s appointments, they were really nasty to him. I guess soldiers are trained to handle nasty, but it sounded like awful treatment for doing a worthy thing. No wonder some people hesitate to seek help. People assume some homeless alcoholic is scum and don’t realize he might be a vet who lost his job and house because of PTSD and is drinking to self-medicate. (There’s my rant.)

    I did not realize the Geneva Accords didn’t apply, but suggesting it is really not necessarily meant to undermine the war effort. I’ve never met any one who didn’t want the war to succeed: right-wing, left-wing. Apparently you say those people are out there.

    The Japanese history is revealing. Someone else had posted about barbaric behavior on this site (maybe it was you). It would seem like they were more rabid than the average German soldier, but how the hell would I know? Except for the SS, most of them were conscripts. I would question if they had the fanaticism of the Japanese. Weren’t there mass surrenders? I could be wrong of course. I’m pretty weak on military knowledge.

    I always learn a lot from your posts and appreciate the time you take.

    And by the way, I looked up the meme definition and don’t do them. rely on what I absorb.

  54. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Back on topic, wasn’t this originally about Scooter and Valerie “Shh, don’t tell anyone but I’m in the CIA. Hows my makeup?” Plame?

    !Fred! has an excellent take on it.

  55. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    crunchieEmporer
    Boy, am I learning here. I have one liberal friend who thinks I’m insane for coming here, and one brighter liberal one who asks if I am learning anything.

    C–FASCINATING PIECE. Wow. It’s so sublime compared to the years of sensory deprivation thing at Guantanomo. Apparently, there’s a whole wing of people driven crazy. I don’t know how much help they will be for intelligence purposes. (Nation–yes it’s a liberal rag, but it’s info holds up over the years) Does having naked military women giving lap dances qualify as torture? (James Yee giving the info–not saying it’s torture)

    This bolding is all screwy: I’m not really doing anything wrong.

    Crunchie
    If you would permit such a question, you tend to post fairly late at night. Are you on the West Coast?

  56. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    PC

    It would seem like they were more rabid than the average German soldier, but how the hell would I know? Except for the SS, most of them were conscripts. I would question if they had the fanaticism of the Japanese. Weren’t there mass surrenders? I could be wrong of course. I’m pretty weak on military knowledge.

    More rabid yes, more fanatical, about the same. A lot of Germans were conscripts, but the majority volunteered. They were fanatical fighters, and very proficient warriors. Thats why they lasted as long as they did against the combined might of Britain, Canada, the US, and the Soviet Union. The Waffen SS, the grunts in the field, not the camp men, were especially hard fighters. Yes the Germans surrendered in the Western Theater, but not so much against the Soviets. The war on the Eastern Front was very brutal, with no quarter asked nor given. Some German POW’s didn’t return home from Soviet gulags until the 1950’s or ’60’s. There was an excellent book called “The Black March”, written by Peter Neuman, a Leutnant with the 1st SS Liebstandarte Division. He was captured in Budapest by the Soviets in April ‘45. He describes how he was in a room full of his dead soldiers with a Mauser with a broken stock and three rounds. He shot three Russians with the last ammo he had and waited. The last line of the book was “Why couldn’t they have killed me?”

  57. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Crunchie
    If you would permit such a question, you tend to post fairly late at night. Are you on the West Coast?

    Nope, a busy insomniac in FL. Please don’t ever accuse me of being from the Left Coast. :-)

  58. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Mild (my definition) physical discomforts like temperature extremes, stress positions, waterboarding, all serve to break down the mental will to resist, not the physical.

    And that’s the whole point exactly. You want the subject to be convinced that you’re capable of and willing to go to horrible extremes, you don’t actually want to go there.

    Which ties in nicely with the dangers of our current tendency to outlaw any kind of physical discomfort, a debate that takes place in full public view, and our enemies read newspapers too.

    It’s next to bloody impossible for an interrogator to convince a subject that you’re stark raving mad and a sadist of the first order just about to go nuts on him if the subject has read in the New York Slimes that even waterboarding is verboten, and you have to have that uncertainty in the subject’s mind in order to be effective.

    You use his own mind and fears against him that way, something that is much more effective than actually doing anything to him. Good filmmakers use a technique similar to this. Take Hitchcock, for instance. One of his most effective tools was never showing anything, he always suggested it, which left it to the audience to guess what unspeakably horrid things were going on off-camera.

    Stephen King used an example in his book “Dance Macabre” that illustrates the principle quite well: You have a scene where you know that a horrible mutant bug is hiding behind the attic door. Now, while the camera follows our hapless hero as he approaches the door and reaches for the door handle, we’re all sitting in our seats wondering just what that horrid creature looks like, and our minds are automatically inserting the most horrible possibilities to us, as individuals, based on what we individually would consider “jump out of our skin” terrifying. This is the good part.

    Now our hero opens the door and reveals the mutant bug. A good filmmaker won’t ever show the bug. Instead he’ll resort to things like panning away, letting us hear bloodcurdling screams and nauseating sounds, leaving the image of the bug that we’ve conjured in our minds alone. A poor filmmaker will reveal the bug. Maybe he’ll make it 6 foot tall and even manage to make us jump in our seats but then, almost immediately, our minds will go “hey, it could’ve been 8 feet tall” or “it could’ve had huge, bloody fangs” etc., and the shock effect will dissipate.

    Taking it back to torture and interrogation, that’s the same threshold you cross when you actually apply physical torture to the subject. Sure, you’ll make him scream and hurt like Hell, but once that phase is done he’ll know that that’s as bad as it’ll get. You’ve shown your hand and you can forget about scaring him and fucking with his mind beyond that point. If he has managed to keep his mouth shut, you’re screwed.

    It’s not what you do to him that’s effective, it’s what he’s convinced that you might do if he doesn’t cooperate.

    Why is the Arab in your example going to talk (and you’re right, he will)? It’s not because the IDF are a bunch of bloodthirsty, brutal sadists, because they’re not, it’s because the subject is convinced that they are.

    Fear of what might happen to you is much, much more powerful than fear of what is actually happening to you, because the former is your own mind being used to defeat yourself.

    OK, I’ll quit rambling now, but I do have a certain passion for that subject ;)

  59. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    I was thinking about how many will come with PTSD.

    My uncles (three blood uncles were WWII combat vets) saw more in their time in service than can be imagined. They did not come home with PTSD. In their day it was called shell shock and they did what was expected, they lived with it. PTSD is, in my opinion, another piece of sell out crap foisted upon us by the wussified culture of “feewwwings”. The more youtell some one he has been scarred emotionally, then tell him he was wrong for what he did to defend his nation, and spit upon the cause he fought for, the more trouble he will have coping with his experiences. Thats what happened to our VietNam vets. They weren’t allowed to cope with their experiences the way WWII vets were.

    Todays vets are being told PTSD this and PTSD that and are starting to see the same type of treatment the Viet Nam vets did. If they develop PTSD, it’s because our society forces it on them.

    You want to see a cure for PTSD, get a bunch of vets together around a 12 pack with out any civilians around.

  60. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    The knowledgable Count
    Thank you for the link. I understand these are evil, horrible people who murder our troops and their own civilians. It’s not like I’m in favor of them! I just had a whole post for Crunchie about this. I don’t see anything wrong with treating captives decently (not necessarily well). If nothing else, it’s a propaganda issue. We are better than them, unquestionably. It kind of amazes me that a discussion of how prisoners are kept leads back to the barbarity of their culture. They are barbarians! We are not. I think we should aggressively fight them. It’s not like I argue for a peace accord. I don’t think we should bring the troops home right now. I may be a liberal, but I do have some understanding of the gravity of the situation. You really don’t need to remind me of torture with power tools. I understand this kind of thing is done. I agree. Stamp them out! I’m a female professional. Do you think I would want to live under a fundamentalist Islamic society?

    I was not aware of the pact you mentioned (sadly lacking on some of my history), but thank you for discussing it.

    Jesus–just because I think it is in our interest that prisoners are kept decently (which makes us seem less evil to the rest of the muslim world), does not make me ignorant of the nature of Al Queda! Or am I over-reacting? (frequent error of mine)

  61. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Sire, RE #58, damn I’m in awe.

    As a side note concerning the whole “torture” accusation against our people, since you brought up the Noo Yawk Slimes, one of the tactics taught to AQ operatives is to claim abuse, mistreatment, and torture because they know our media will run with it and do their job for them.

    Example is the whole Koran in the toilet BS. It was the detainees themselves who did it, then accused the guards. You know what the MSM did with that story.

  62. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Emporer
    It’s starting to make sense to me now, thanks to Crunchie also. It doesn’t seem quite so evil any more.

    Crunchie
    Sorry to insult you, coast-wise. Don’t forget Cal is the state that gave up Ronald Reagan.

    I guess I don’t view PTSD as such a trivial thing. Normally, you are so militarily knowledgable that I wouldn’t question you. But I suspect I’m way more up on mental health issues. There has been a tendency for vets to be so flipped out that they abuse their wives, lose their jobs, then their homes. That has happened a lot. I don’t think you could blame that on a culture of feelings. Maybe a lot of that does have to do with how the soldiers were treated when they came home. I think the treatment of the Vietnam vets was shameful, whether you opposed the war or not. One of the guys who raised the flag on Iwo Jima became an alcholic and shot himself. I don’t have any statistics on how prevalent that was in WWII. Am I wrong in thinking shell shock was viewed as a shameful condition? If so, who would have admitted it? (I certainly wouldn’t argue that drinking with other vets wouldn’t be helpful.)

    I think I told you I used to have PTSD from my Norman Bates childhood (or maybe that was Wil). It was never treated, and trust me, was no walk in the park. It seems to have gone away over the years, although I still go through the roof at the slightest sound. I tend to shriek at people when I turn a corner and they startle me. (Of course, I also scare them) People laugh at me when I say I used to be more nervous–they can’t imagine it. Spouse says “You had to be there.”

    I looked up your link to get back on topic. (God I hope I don’t catch hell for that. Dreaming about getting a $90 fine for thread hijacking is kind of pathetic.) Richard Armitage! Now, I’ll be damned (hopefully not)

    By the way, there was way more to the Koran story, but I don’t have the strength to argue right now (and my source is someone who was there). I’m kind of burned out from arguing that I really do hate Al Queda. What’s not to hate?

  63. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    The man committed a crime, and you want him pardoned?

    It doesn’t matter that he was never charged with the the crime of outting a CIA operative or not, it was because he chose to impede that investigation.

    If he didn’t have anything to hide, why did he feel the need to lie and mislead? He could have simply told the truth, and none of this would have happened.

    No, he chose to be the fall guy, and is suffering the consequence for now.

    I don’t really see him actually doing any time though. He will be released on appeal, which will take 18 - 24 months typically, and by that time, Bush will be ready to pardon him as he leaves the White House.

  64. Mike M Comment by Mike M

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    My uncle was a WWII Marine. He was on Guadalcanal, the first time we tangled with the Nips in a ground campaign. Our first real battle with them was at the Tenaru River. We slaughtered them as they made a foolish assault against our MG positions.

    Crunch, it sounds like your uncle served with a fellow named John Basilone.

  65. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Emporer
    It’s starting to make sense to me now, thanks to Crunchie also. It doesn’t seem quite so evil any more.

    Oh but it is. It’s about as evil as it gets. It’s the art of messing with your subject’s mind to the point where he actively works against himself, doing things that he’d never dream of doing otherwise, preferably without even knowing that he’s doing it.

    But it’s also a very necessary job. The subject is a container of vital information and you need to find a can opener that will work. And it’s important that you do. He could have information that, if you can get it out of him, could save countless lives. So it’s a matter of how you define “evil”, I guess. It’s like any other tool, you can use it for good or you can use it for evil, but the primary objective is to get the information out.

    And that’s the important bit to keep in mind: The objective of interrogation is NOT to harm your subject, it’s NOT to cause discomfort or pain, it’s to get the information. By any means necessary. Preferably as humanely and kindly as possible, the information doesn’t become more valuable because the subject was screaming with pain, but you have to get it out. That’s the ONLY concern. And messing with somebody’s mind is so much more effective than messing with his body.

    I guess I don’t view PTSD as such a trivial thing. Normally, you are so militarily knowledgable that I wouldn’t question you. But I suspect I’m way more up on mental health issues. There has been a tendency for vets to be so flipped out that they abuse their wives, lose their jobs, then their homes. That has happened a lot. I don’t think you could blame that on a culture of feelings. Maybe a lot of that does have to do with how the soldiers were treated when they came home.

    Quite a bit, but it has even more to do with how they got home in the first place. Allow me to steal from COL Grossman for a bit. It’s most of all about how the soldier is allowed to process what he went through. In the past, soldiers spent weeks getting home among their own, shooting the breeze, sharing their stories and crying on each other’s shoulders. That process was vital to make them understand that the traumatic experience of war, the horrors they’d gone through and taken part in, wasn’t unique to themselves. The revulsion, fears, doubts etc. was common to all of them, and the single most important part of those get-togethers (with a couple of sixpacks and no civilians around, as Crunchie puts it so very accurately) was to make everybody there understand that they were quite normal, that there was nothing wrong with how they felt, that they shared those feelings with all of their comrades in arms.

    But nowadays our troops DON’T have that week-long journey on a ship across the Atlantic to “decompress”, they’re flown out of the combat zone and dropped among the civilian population hours later without a chance to get it out of their systems.

    Because war IS horrible. Killing another human is just about the most unnatural thing that a human can do. We’re hard-wired against it. If you doubt it, look at the other animals in nature. Very very rarely do they kill one of “their own”, and we share that coding with them.

    That’s why modern military training focuses so hard on conditioning troops to kill. It wasn’t until post-WWII that we realized that a mental, hard-wired condition against it even existed. Have you ever watched a movie like “Gettysburg” or “Gods and Generals?” If you have, you must have been asking yourself how more soldiers didn’t get killed with the ridiculously short ranges that the troops back then exchanged fire at. It wasn’t the weapons that were at fault, as anybody who has been hunting with a Civil War Era rifle will be more than happy to tell you, they’re quite lethal and accurate at those ranges, it was because most of the soldiers intentionally missed or simply failed to shoot in the first place.

    With modern military training and conditioning (and Civil War weapons and military tactics) most of those battles would have ended in a bloodbath before the attacker even got close to the defender.

    But we figured it out after WWII, we taught our soldiers how to override their hard-coding and kill, and with that the face of warfare changed forever.

    And, of course, violating your own nature comes with a price, which is what PTSD is. Because you can train the soldier to kill, but you can’t train him to ignore the psychological cost of doing so (and trust me, you don’t WANT to either!) Unfortunately, while we learned the lessons of wars past and used them to make our soldiers better at their job of killing the enemy, we forgot to take that cost and how to deal with it into account. And the solution really IS as simple as what Crunchie said: Get a group of vets together and let them hang it all out together. No civilian shrink, however qualified they may be in other areas, can ever provide a combat vet with what he needs because they simply don’t understand what they’re dealing with. His brothers in arms do, because they’re dealing with the same thing. They understand him, because they are him.

    No, PTSD isn’t trivial, nor did Crunchie ever say that it was. What he said was that we’re dealing with it in a completely ass-backwards manner.

  66. LC RobertHuntingdon Comment by LC RobertHuntingdon

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    Why not, deej? I mean, he’s trying to pardon 10 million other criminals, whats one more?

    Now if scooter’d actually commited a *real* crime — like saying nasty things about homosexuals or something — well, that would be different.

    /sarcasm

    Duh.

    RH

  67. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    It doesn’t matter that he was never charged with the the crime of outting a CIA operative or not, it was because he chose to impede that investigation.

    If he didn’t have anything to hide, why did he feel the need to lie and mislead? He could have simply told the truth, and none of this would have happened.

    And how do you know that he wasn’t telling the truth as far as he remembered it?

    Ask me what I had for lunch two days ago and I’ll have to think about it. Ask me about who I talked to, in what order I talked to them and what exactly I told them several years ago and I’ll tell you that you’re out of your friggin’ gourd if you think that I remember any of it. Which is exactly what Scooter should’ve said. That was his only mistake.

    Add to that that the special prosecutor, Fitzgerald, knew before he even dragged Scooter on the stand that the real “leaker” of the name of the very non-covert “agent”, Valerie Plame, was Richard Armitage, and you have the makings of a classical Stalinist show trial.

    Scooter was an idiot to even answer the stupid question in the first place rather than invoking the Fifth, but being an idiot isn’t a crime punishable by 2 and a half years in the klink with a quarter million dollar fine.

  68. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    maxxdog
    You posted hours ago, but I was just looking through posts. It was very nice of you to assemble a list of links for me. However, what I did not know was the definition of a meme (have looked it up), not about jihadists. Everyone is trying to tell me about the nature of Al-Queda. They are brutal, fascist murderers. I am well aware of that and was well aware before I encountered this blog, and I stated it in the original post! I don’t know why every one feels the need to tell me about Al Queda because I brought up AG. I really am not totally clueless about the Middle East.
    Crunchie and Emporer excepted from rant–have learned a hell of a lot from you guys tonight (and Count. What are you the count of?

    I feel kind of bruised, but I am glad I posted it, because I have learned a lot from various posts, which I probably wouldn’t have learned if I had played it safe. (However I didn’t get any work done today :() (Inching closer to the Darkside!–the insidiousness of this site)

  69. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Wow–there were all these posts I was unaware of, as much as I hate to admit that.

    Emporer
    good explanation. I should have connected about the long boat trip home vs the 24 hr approach. (There are a few animals that kill their own. Gorillas will kill offspring that aren’t theirs.) That’s a total divergence. I’m sure you are right that it takes a real toll for soldiers to kill. The Gettysburg thing is REALLY interesting. That’s such a creepy place to visit.

    good post on torture. you sound really knowledgable–do you have a military background, too?

    My thoughts on Libby. I have a large DayTimer. When I meet with someone, I make a brief note what it’s about. That doesn’t mean that he does, but he’s pretty high-up–he must have some sort of record-keeping. Maybe he did just space. I’m not psychic (just psycho).

    Crunchie
    sorry I mis-quoted you. accidental

  70. LC&IB Vulcanrider Comment by LC&IB Vulcanrider

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    But nowadays our troops DON’T have that week-long journey on a ship across the Atlantic to “decompress”, they’re flown out of the combat zone and dropped among the civilian population hours later without a chance to get it out of their systems.

    Abso-tivly spot on, Sire, every time I returned from a “deployment”, this is exactly what happened. Routed through the military airlift system, stopped in various locations and not allowed to leave either 1. The Terminal, or 2. THE AIRCRAFT and dropped off at home station (or at least somewhere close). And the only “assistance” was an offer by the Padre to stop by and “talk”. I know you’ve been through this exact thing Crunchie, it’s the nature of the beast today.

    However, being that I came in at the end of the Vietnam era, served with many vets that had been in that theater, and was one to pay attention, when me and my guys got back, we instituted what I will now call the “Crunchie Method” for decompression. It involved bottles with a proof rating, gallons of beer, and cots at my house. All family members were excused for the weekend, and we all got together and “got over it” together. Maybe not as good as the week long boat trip, but it accomplished huge amounts, and it let my troops know if they EVER had an issue, they could bring it to me.

    And no one ever left after a drinking/crying/laughing jag, I locked all the car keys in my gun safe, it kept them from “escaping” BUUUWAHHHHHH!

  71. maxxdog Comment by maxxdog

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    PC, those were not links about Al Quaeda. They are links about Islam.

  72. WayneB Comment by WayneB

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    PC - Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think people are still trying to convince you that Al-Queda are evil. They are still pissed that Fraternity-like hazing incidents are front-page news for weeks at a time, while the depredations of the enemy are not covered. People will say that we don’t NEED to hear stories about how evil the terrorists are, we already know. Unfortunately, that doesn’t take into consideration the damage done to that understanding by people like Michael Moore, calling the terrorists in Iraq, “Freedom Fighters”. We DO NEED to combat statements like that aggressively, or else people will stop believing they are even terrorists. “Demonizing” the enemy DOES need to be done, because Joe Average will lose sight of what is really going on if he only hears about how many soldiers have been killed every day. I don’t think you have lost sight of that, but most people aren’t as focused as you obviously are.

    Just as an example of this: I doubt if you listen to Sean Hannity, but he has a piece he does called, “Man on the street Thursday”. One of his studio people goes down to the street with a phone, finds people on the street, and puts them on the phone with him. Hannity asks them questions. Sometimes it’s identifying people from a stack of pictures, sometimes it’s just questions. Many times these people are college students. Half the people can’t name the Vice-President. 90% can’t name the Secretary of State. Over half could not name more than one Supreme Court Justice. After the 2004 election, some of them thought John Kerry was the new President. Every single one knew about Abu Ghraib. In case you think these people are ringers, I should point out that it’s usually his very Liberal producer who does this. She goes out and gets random people, as I said, many of them college students, and they are about as informed as my dog. This is why we need the MSM to put out the information about how Al-Queda operates.

    Oh, and regarding Libby - if the prosecutor had dropped the investigation when he learned who had first mentioned Plame to the press (a couple of months into the investigation), there would have been no depositions that Libby could have screwed up on so that he could be accused of Perjury.

  73. LC FIAR Comment by LC FIAR

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    PC

    I can see that it’s going to take a lot of time to deprogram you from all the misinformation you’ve been fed over the years.

    Ugh! So much that you believe is just plain wrong, and it’s the entirely predictable result of using the NYT, the LAT, and PBS as your source of information.

    That’s why we hate the MSM so much. They deliberately misinform the public. A misinformed public is far worse than an uninformed public. Misinformed requires deprogramming. Uninformed is tabula rasa.

  74. AyUaxe Comment by AyUaxe

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    LC 0311 crunchie has it right! Two of my best friends’ dads were marines in the Pacific theater in WWII. They never spoke of it and clearly did NOT want to share horrible experiences. They were (one passed, the other is thankfully enjoying his golden years) very different personalities–one gruff, harsh,the other gentle, open, but both had left the horrors of war behind them. Real PTSD is a real problem and it needs immediate “treatment.” As noted, the immediate comfort of comrades who have been through the same situation greatly helped soldiers from pre-jet travel conflicts. Once our guys started flying around, much of that initial help was lost. It’s another case in which doing what seems like a kind and compassionate thing–getting soldiers home quicker–is actually quite the opposite. That said, there’s a mighty lot of BS PTSD going around and that crap needs to stop. Everyone who’s nervous or just an f’n weenie doesn’t have PTSD.

    On Scooter Libby, it’s a damn shame prosecutors had to pick on some poor schmuck with too much work on his plate and a mediocre memory, instead of going after violent criminal illegal aliens, terrorist cells and their funding, leakers of classified information, and crooked politicians. I’ll bet they could’ve gotten $Bill’s indictment and trial done already with the staff and resources that went into prosecution of Libby’s non-crime (Plame was not covert-the fact that she had been outed long before Scooter ever heard of her or her dipshit husband is well documented). Once again, never tell a cop anything about yourself–always lawyer-up and take the 5th. The only guy you should believe when he says “I’m from the gummint and I’m here to help” is a Coast Guard rescue swimmer. Even then, the most you should say is “Thanks.”

  75. Spartan24 Comment by Spartan24

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    PC— Liked the article about the journalist in Saudi, not a nice place would not want to live there. I had a horrible childhood too, raised by my grandparents and treated like crap, still treated bad if I allowed them to. I just dealt with it, hang up the phone if they get abusive.

  76. english911 Comment by english911

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    I shudder when I realize I agree dimicraps, but I think GWB is close to the worst president ever. Then again that is only because he beat Gore and Kerry to it!

  77. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    good post on torture. you sound really knowledgable–do you have a military background, too?

    Thanks, and yes, a bit.

  78. maxxdog Comment by maxxdog

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    PC, Many of the people here are vets. Some are currently serving. Some are supporting the troops through Soldier’s Angels, the Patriot Guard Riders and other orgs that are out there. Most of us own guns and know how and when to use them. The wealth of knowlegde at the Rott is astounding! I would wager there is more stored knowledge in the Rotties than any 50 college profs you could assemble. Notice I said knowledge, as in facts, not what passes for it in our higher ed system.

  79. Unregistered Comment by jkaiseresquire

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    Bush = Gutless wonder.

    J. Kaiser
    http://totaltransformation.wordpress.com

  80. Beth* A. Comment by Beth* A.

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    Unfortunately, while we learned the lessons of wars past and used them to make our soldiers better at their job of killing the enemy, we forgot to take that cost and how to deal with it into account.

    Maybe not as much as you think:

    Misha/Crunchie/Vulcanrider:

    Respectfully, I think you might find your info on decompression time available for the troops is a bit dated. It may not be as long a period as you (or sometimes, they) would like, but I’ve had 5 Marine friends serve in Iraq, for 8 deployments between them, and with the possible exception of the two (I’m not sure about that period) who went for OIF at the beginning of the War, they all were required to spend time at Camp Victory (think that’s the correct name) in Kuwait, before and most importantly, AFTER they were out in the Sandbox, for between 3 days to a week, to decompress and THEN they could come home, via the nearest C130.

    I know 3 of these brave guys chomped at the bit to ‘just get home’, even as they recognized the value of, if nothing else, NOT feeling like they had quite as big a target on their back for the first time in 7 months. Whether this was enough to prevent PTSD…well, all of them jump at backfiring cars, firecrackers aren’t on their hit parade, and diesel fuel is a problematic scent due to the memories it rushes back. One man who did 3 deployments is still having severe problems with it; but then again, he was shot, physically paralyzed by a resulting illness for a time, and prior to that, hit by an IED, so he has ample, huge reason. None better.

    It’s possible that stopping in Kuwait is just a Marine practice - but I didn’t get that impression. By all accounts that is ONE. BIG. Camp! I do think the military learned something from the lessons of Viet Nam, and the shoddy/shameful/shabby/shitty way our troops were adapted back into civilian life then. Our learning curve may be that of a person fresh off the short bus, but we are making some progress with this stuff.

    You want to see a cure for PTSD, get a bunch of vets together around a 12 pack with out any civilians around.

    That was the hardest thing to accept, Crunchie. That I couldn’t help - in as nice a manner as possible I was made to understand one of the more difficult truths for a friend to accept - if you personally haven’t been ‘there’ all the listening in the world cannot make up for time spent with those who have.

    But…;-)
    it doesn’t mean we can’t try. http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/08/what_are_you_pr.html

    So, so proud of our guys.

  81. Beth* A. Comment by Beth* A.

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    Darn.

    Forgot to stay on-thread. Libby deserves a pardon, and if not from this Pres., then I believe Fred! will do that for him. He deserves better - I hope the appeal works - WTF ever happened to the letter of the law?

  82. Alan K. Henderson Comment by Alan K. Henderson

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    Another problem with the Pelosi trip:

    The Prime Minister’s Office has strongly denied that Israel relayed a message to Syria, accepting its calls to renew peace negotiations.

    In a special statement of clarification, the bureau stressed that Olmert had told Pelosi that Israel continued to regard Syria as “part of the axis of evil and a party encouraging terrorism in the entire Middle East.”

    According to sources at the Prime Minister’s Office, “Pelosi took part of the things that were said in the meeting, and used what suited her.”

    (Link via Riehl World View)

  83. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Respectfully, I think you might find your info on decompression time available for the troops is a bit dated. It may not be as long a period as you (or sometimes, they) would like, but I’ve had 5 Marine friends serve in Iraq, for 8 deployments between them, and with the possible exception of the two (I’m not sure about that period) who went for OIF at the beginning of the War, they all were required to spend time at Camp Victory (think that’s the correct name) in Kuwait, before and most importantly, AFTER they were out in the Sandbox, for between 3 days to a week, to decompress and THEN they could come home, via the nearest C130.

    Thanks for the update, Beth! That is truly excellent news. Apparently we’ve learned something after all!

  84. baslimthecripple Comment by baslimthecripple

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    crunchie

    Some German POW’s didn’t return home from Soviet gulags until the 1950’s or 1960’s.

    Most of them never came back - at all. I don’t recall exactly, but the % was around 90 who never came home. On the other hand, about the same percentage of Russian POWs died in Nazi captivity, so what goes around comes around.

  85. LC&IB Vulcanrider Comment by LC&IB Vulcanrider

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    Well, I can’t speak for what’s happened since I retired, but I can tell you that our time “decompressing” was spent “out-processing” and doing some lame ass details the regular residents of the location I went to didn’t want to. And since there was no alcohol allowed, we “decompressed” with Gatorade and Kool-Aid. Hell, when I came out of Pakistan in October ‘01, I didn’t even see the Chaplain, it’ was “get packed and get back to (blank), we have an issue you need to take care of.

    I hope that’s what’s happening, but my guess is if they’re still jumping at backfires and firecrackers, and diesel fumes are an issue, it’s not decompression at all, but some leg REMF’s attempt at it, and it ain’t working…

  86. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Maxxdog
    Well, there is a reason I come here to view posts. People do seem really knowledgable. That is why I come and risk derision in posting my views–I usually learn something. Sometimes it’s facts that I was wrong about; sometimes it’s to understand a different point of you. Yes, I understand that I have been treated extremely well for a troll. But I never post anything to be purposefully annoying; they are all my opinions. I don’t know why you tell me there are a lot of military folks here. That has come up, and it’s not like I mean any disrespect to vets or active military people. I do have a relative in the Air Force.

    I want to thank Crunchie in particular. I think he has spent the most time explaining things/trying to disabuse me of things I was wrong about. I appreciate the time spent. But also, a lot of people have taken the time to point out things to me.

    FIAR
    Well, honestly. I was wrong about several things in this post, and I admit it. I do try to keep an open mind. But how much of other things I’m wrong about is a difference of opinion that does not have a right or wrong? I’m sorry if I’m so frustrating in my opinions (seriously–not being snarky). You know, I read the MSM, but I’m not one of these frighteningly ignorant people who can’t name a Supreme Court justice (SCARY!)–thanks Wayne B. I find it kind of bizarre that they would be so ignorant, but familiar with AG.

    Now this is not to be self-centered, but a lot of comments were made about my level of knowledge, and I’m addressing them.

    I am so glad that the troops are getting some decompression time. I live in a pretty liberal area, but any time one of the troops comes home to this area, it’s a really big deal in the press. There is a lot of good will; no one goes off on them being a warmonger (like they shouldn’t!)

  87. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    sorry–I re-read a lot of posts and realized the finer points I had missed

    AyUaxe
    “there’s a mighty lot of BS PTSD going around”
    -Is that a general wise statement or directed at me or both? There were a lot of things going on that I didn’t want to go in. It’s pretty well documented that childhood sexual abuse can result in PTSD.
    -I don’t think you can quantify different types of trauma. Fighting in a war must just be incredibly traumatic, and I can’t imagine how horrible it would be, but I don’t think it’s wrong to consider other things traumatic, also. This is not a talk-show forum, so I’ll stop.
    -I will mention one incident. I was walking through a grocery store and was in one of my anxiety attacks (very quietly). I got a sympathetic look from an older man who looked like he might be a vet. That was around 17 years ago, but I’ll never forget it. He was very perceptive to notice.

    FIAR
    I didn’t catch your comment that being uninformed is better than being misinformed! I see your logic, but do find it kind of odd. It’s a new concept to me.

    Wayne B
    To be honest, I hadn’t thought about the coverage of the jihadists, because they are obviously so evil, and I knew that. However, I bet you are right that having constant coverage of their atrocities would be a good, constant reminder for the general public who might be less informed. I think the print press is better at covering that sort of thing. You can cover horrible tortures in an article that I think a TV show would censor (might be wrong). However, the people that most need the info don’t read; they watch tv.

    Spartan
    I’m sorry. I hope they didn’t insidiously get in your head so you torture yourself. That’s the worst.

  88. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    PC

    One of the guys who raised the flag on Iwo Jima became an alcholic and shot himself.

    No, actually PFC Ira Hayes, the flag raiser you refer to, drank his self to death. He was found dead on a farm on the reservation he returned to. Yes, PTSD contributed to it, but an alcoholic is an alcoholic regardless.

    Of the other two surviving flag raisers, Rene Gagnon floundered the rest of his life because he thought his ship had come in. During the war bond drives in ‘45 he was offered all sorts of jobs and positions, but no one ever wanted to follow through on them. The last, Doc Bradley, adjusted the best, returning to his family mortuary business and putting the war behind him.

    Interestingly enough, career warriors seem to have next to no cases of PTSD. They stay in the culture that understands. It doesn’t seem to be until soldiers return to the civilian world that it develops.

    PC, I think that what AyUaxe was referring to about BS PTSD is the same as I was alluding to, every one is to quick to call the slightest little coping with the war PTSD.

    The rest of the discussion on PTSD I leave to Mishas excellent comment.

    Vulcanrider, the crunchie method huh? If you say so buddy, I guess having a bunch of vets sitting around getting drunk named after me is kind of appropriate, Lord knows I’ve participated in enough of it!

    Beth Yeah it may be hard to accept, but leaving them to each other can be the best thing you can do for them. They will come to you when they need what you can do for them. Just be there waiting.

    P.S. PC

    I want to thank Crunchie in particular. I think he has spent the most time explaining things/trying to disabuse me of things I was wrong about.

    No prob, happy to do it. Don’t take this as an insult, I don’t mean it that way, but I think in some ways you’re kind of naive on some stuff, and it’s due to your sources. Reference FIAR’s statement on uninformed versus misinformed. I think that if you are exposed to enough facts that counter the misinformation you’ve been exposed to, you may be able to see through some of it on your own, and start thinking critically on issues. Thats what we call conversion to the dark side. And you are progressing well my young padawan, mwuhahaha. :-)

  89. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Beth, read that link to Black 5. Thats beautiful ma’am, just plain beautiful.

  90. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Crunchie
    I stand corrected as usual. I should just give up on military comments. I’m not a total ignoramus, but I seem to always be wrong. (hope that’s not too petulant)

    naive? I guess that’s possible. I guess sources are an issue. It’s just frustrating, because I work so goddamn hard to stay informed. And when I should be reading plant science papers to further my career, I instead read up on current events. And I’ve been trained to think critically, so hopefully that’s not an issue. Actually, you’re not saying that I don’t–you’re talking about critical thinking to counter misinformation. I will say that not every one has the same facts; some things are open to alternate opinions. You could probably guess from my presence here that I do believe in reading a range of different things; I try not to only read things I agree with. If I had more time, I would get the “National Review”.

    I’m glad you clarified the PTSD thing.

    Changes to mention:
    salivating to go to a shooting range
    moderation in opinion of gun control laws
    greater understanding of reasons for prisoner treatment at Guantonomo Bay

    Those are pretty radical for me. Let alone a greater understanding of alternate viewpoints. Your efforts have not been in vain!

  91. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Those are pretty radical for me. Let alone a greater understanding of alternate viewpoints. Your efforts have not been in vain!

    WOOT!

    I should just give up on military comments. I’m not a total ignoramus, but I seem to always be wrong.

    Please don’t, military history is a passion of mine and bangie thang is sick of hearing me talk about it!

  92. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    crunchie
    OK. Your military comments are always fascinating to me. I always learn a lot, and it’s pretty important stuff. So I guess if being wrong inspires an interesting commentary, it’s a small price to pay.

  93. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    On the other hand, about the same percentage of Russian POWs died in Nazi captivity, so what goes around comes around.

    Yeah, the first trial run through of the crematoria at Auschwitz/Birkenau were Soviet POW’s. Interestingly enough though, quite a few were impressed into service as helpers for the infantry. One would be assigned to a squad to run ammo, get chow, mend uniforms etc. The Germans had a name for them, escapes me at the moment. The Allies were pretty surprised to be capturing Russian soldiers in France.

  94. Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P. Comment by Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P.

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    Please don’t, military history is a passion of mine and bangie thang is sick of hearing me talk about it!

    Ach, lad, ye ha’ the sa’e prob’ I’m ofter hav’n't.

    (Although, when I explained the technological advancements that made Pickett’s charge such a suicidal event, as opposed to what it would have been during, say, the Napoleonic Wars, she did pay close attention!)

  95. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    The Germans had a name for them,

    Hiwis, for “Hilfswillige”, meaning “willing to help.”

  96. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    So did bangie Guido, right up until the first snore! Women, they just don’t appreciate the military sciences. *heavy sigh*

  97. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Hiwis

    Thats it! Thank you Sire! It was right on the tip of my tongue and driving me nuts trying to remember it. You just save me yet another sleepless night.

  98. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Women, they just don’t appreciate the military sciences. *heavy sigh*

    Hey now…don’t group us all in the same boat….I may not be into Military Sciences, but I do enjoy the history. I have more WW2 history books than M can shake a stick at. Need to get back to digging them out of the packing boxes and start reading again..I’m starting to get fuzzy around the edges. I find myself having to Google more than I can drag out of my memory.

  99. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    and start reading again..I’m starting to get fuzzy around the edges.

    You ain’t alone there Mrs M.

    I find myself having to Google more than I can drag out of my memory.

    If I can’t drag it out of my memory, I tend to leave it be. Maybe I should start googling so I can refresh some of it.

  100. WayneB Comment by WayneB

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    Hey, PC, the post I made to you on another thread was pretty far down, and I don’t know if you saw it, so let me suggest again:

    Go visit The Imperial Firearms Advisor and contact him to see if there is a Nation of Riflemen volunteer in your area, who would be willing to help you get started. He can also help with how to convince your husband to go to the range with you.

  101. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Wayne B
    Thank you for taking the time to help me. I did see your other post. I’m sorry I didn’t acknowledge it. That was rude! That would be great actually. I was talking to some of my neighbors this evening. They don’t think the local shooting ranges rent guns, which bites. It’s too risky for me to own one. I have access to all sorts of poisons, but there’s something about a gun that is particularly tempting. I will bookmark your site immediately! Thank you again.

  102. WayneB Comment by WayneB

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    ‘Sno problem. I’m sure someone else around here would have thought to send you there eventually.

    I probably thought about it first because I know less about guns than almost anyone here, except maybe you, so I thought to send you to someone who has made it sort of a mission. Their motto is, “Turning America back into a Nation of Riflemen, one person at a time.”

  103. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Mrs M

    I’m starting to get fuzzy around the edges.

    They have help for that.

  104. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    They have help for that.

    Oh I’ll get you for that one Crunchie…if only for not posting a spew warning..ROFLMAO!

  105. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    Glad ya liked it Mrs M!

  106. kwongdzu Comment by kwongdzu

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    LOL! Bad crunchie!

  107. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

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    Crunch, yer gettin’ there, brutha! Tou-fuckin-ché! :lol:

  108. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    I learned from the best BC. :smoke1_wp: (insert smoikng smiley here)

  109. Nanashi Comment by Nanashi

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    DJ: You might want to take Giuliani’s statement under consideration. Let’s face the facts here: he has more experience at this than the both of us put together, and he’s calling bullshit. It is a wise man indeed who considers the words of the experts. (And I write all this as a victim of !Fred! Fever)