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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » OK, So They’re Nuts
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We don’t know who the “Barna Group” is or if their survey results are worth wiping your butt with, but we have only one thing to say to this (link via Hot Air):

…most atheists and agnostics (56%) agree with the idea that radical Christianity is just as threatening in America as is radical Islam.

Or, put differently (but just as accurately), 56% of atheists and agnostics are dumber than dirt and have absolutely no idea what they’re talking about. Thankfully, I’m truly blessed in the fact that the atheists and agnostics I call friends belong to the 44% with a functioning brain.

No, I won’t even bother going into just why the 56%ers, as they shall henceforth be known, have completely failed to understand even the most basic of facts regarding the two faiths and their differences, because there’s really no point. It’d be like trying to explain quantum mechanics to a lobotomized garden slug.

The good news is, they’ll grow out of it. Most of them, anyway.

The even better news is, I don’t give a shit. Consider the source. Anybody who cannot tell the difference between “radical Christians” (whatever the fuck that is) and, say, al-Qaeda, is less worthy of intellectual consideration than your average protozoa.

102 Responses to “OK, So They’re Nuts”
  1. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    radical Christianity

    As soon as I read those words my eyes glazed over.

  2. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    These people seem to be spending a great deal of time and effort an what they claim to be nothing……or is it the idea that others do believe disturbing them? Either way, I could care less…for in truth, I see armed conflict coming.

  3. JeepThang Comment by JeepThang

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    Of course they’ll figure it out.. but it will be too late regardless. meh. More manna for the rest of us.

  4. Unregistered Comment by tradewind

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    The Barna Group is Rosie O’ Donnell’s subsidiary (BigasaBarn enterprises, inc, with subcorp Barna Moron, ltd). Remember, she’s the one who launched that ‘ radical Christians are more dangerous than radical jihadists’ crap on The View.

  5. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    Thank you, tradewind, that explains a great deal. Of course what is not mentioned is the desperate attempt of the left and other God haters to establish a credible equivalency between all faiths. It is ludicrous at best to declare an abortion clinic bombing equivalent to what has been done my Muslims in the Middle East. Now, using Islam as an example, who wouldn’t want to ban all religion? Pusbag Rose is just a hater, no news there. Then again, she has a multitude of reasons to hate herself. Now these folks claim to be rational and have no angst against those of faith. Then why seek to control or influence them? What remains rational with spending a great deal defending nothing? They are free to practice their faith…..and that remains their downfall and the hypocrisy in their argument. What is it about nothing so appealing to them? Moral relativism, meaning set the bar wherever you please? In truth I really don’t concern myself with them much, knowing full well those that don’t grow out of it will have little stomach for directly themselves forcing their views upon the believers. My friends oare from all faiths, or none at all. We have no problems with each other. We do share one common love…guns.

  6. themandownthehall Comment by themandownthehall

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    This is complete and utter BS. I know lots of atheists and agnostics and not a single one thinks Christians are more dangerous than muslims. They probably rigged the answering pool to fit their desired outcome.

    But then again, they never said that the “radical Christians” themselves would do the dirty work. Every time I heard Donnie and Marie singing “I’m a little bit country” I wanted to go on a rampage and shoot something. Maybe that’s what they meant… :)

  7. Princess Natasha Comment by Princess Natasha

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    Have they lost their friggin minds? OMFG! Somebody has too much time and money on their hands. I wonder if they could fund my personal research into the benefits of rum consumption?

  8. Princess Natasha Comment by Princess Natasha

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    Well, those dang Mormon missionaries in my building refuse to ride in the elevator with me, when I am the only other individual there! (because I wear teeny-tiny miniskirts and boob-boosting tank-tops, and they are supposed to abstain from wicked thoughts while on a mission…) Weird, but understandable. They say Hi to me, and hold the door for me, otherwise. They are not stoning me or blowing me up. So, how is it that they are the same as splodeydopes?

  9. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    Pusbag Rose is just a hater, no news there.

    The land whale probably dreams of being another Oprah.

  10. LC MoMinuteMan Comment by LC MoMinuteMan

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    As a non-believer, I live in fear of those Radical Christians.

    Just look as the shit they pull, a rabid mob crushing a girl’s skull with cinder blocks because she dared love the wrong guy… no, wait, that was islam…

    OK, remember the time they captured and beheaded that reporter guy… shit, I forgot, that was islam again…

    I got it!! Remember the time those Radical Christians flew those planes into those big buildings in NYC and D.C.?? What?? islam again??

    I know!! Remember when those wacky Christians rioted all over the world and killed hundreds of people ’cause somebody drew some cartoons that made fun of Jesus?? Oh, that was Mo-ham-head?? Sorry, my bad.

    Well, I remember when I was a kid and my Gramdma put on her burqua and took me to church and they had all those camel piss drinking ceremonies and mutilated all of those little girls by cutting off their external genatalia and then the men beat the shit outta all the women…. No?? Islam again, huh??

    Sounds like I need to worry more about Islam than I need to worry about Christians….

    Whoulda thunk it???

  11. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    Well when the Southern Baptists start beheading, bombing, burning, pillaging, and suing the pants off everyone that looks at them funny, I might be willing to think they might almost have a point.

    Until then…these people need to be baptized the way my late former pastor once suggested…held underwater until they REALLY repent.

  12. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    I think the thinking is that the evil jihadists will be dealt with and never impose Islamic rule on our country, while the Christian right is here and active and wants to impose their faith on us. Some people consider them fascist, too.

    Now I don’t consider them equally dangerous, and I think I’m the only person who has admitted to being agnostic here. (could be wrong) I think dangerous terrorists are the more urgent problem, but these Christian right people do scare the shit out of me. As far as immediate problems go, I obsess over the jihadists, not the Christian right.

  13. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    As a non-believer, I live in fear of those Radical Christians.

    A “Radical Christian” is hereby defined as anyone who utters the name “G_d” or “Jesus” within 1000′ of a public school.

    *just getting the jump on Rosie O’Bagadonuts.*

  14. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

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    MMM, wut u sed. Have they taken a poll about their fears of “radical Christians” vis-a-vis, say, “radical illegal alien gangs” or “radical hip-hoppin’ gangstas“?

    BTW, those murthafuckers at BarnSizedAsses Group™ didn’t bother calling ME and asking MY opinion. I’d tell ‘em that having Socialists running the Fed Gubmint are a much greater danger than any “radical Christian” group. (With the possible exception of Phuckhead Phred Phelps’ inbred sister-fuckin’ retards.)

  15. Alan K. Henderson Comment by Alan K. Henderson

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    Actually, the Barna Group is this:

    Through its five divisions, The Barna Group provides primary research (The Barna Research Group); communications tools (BarnaFilms); printed resources (BarnaBooks); leadership development for young people (The Josiah Corps); and church facilitation and enhancement (Transformation Church Network). The ultimate aim of the firm is to partner with Christian ministries and individuals to be a catalyst in moral and spiritual transformation in the United States. It accomplishes these outcomes by providing vision, information, evaluation and resources through a network of intimate partnerships. Among its strategic partners are Church Communication Network, EMI Christian Music Group, Filmdisc, HollywoodJesus.com, Kingdom Inc., and Tyndale House Publishers.

    Barna does polls now and then, and this is the latest.

    I strongly disagree with the Emperor on this:

    The good news is, they’ll grow out of it. Most of them, anyway.

    I’d sooner expect to see Andrew Sullivan marry Camille Paglia.

    I’ve seen the kind of bigotry represented by that 56%, and it’s intense. We’re talking Fred Phelps levels of paranoid moonbattery. Few people mature from that level of prejudice.

    It’s because of that 56% that people stereotype atheists as self-righteous, arrogant, and condescending.

    Oriana Fallaci was not that kind of atheist.

  16. Alan K. Henderson Comment by Alan K. Henderson

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    Well, those dang Mormon missionaries in my building refuse to ride in the elevator with me, when I am the only other individual there! (because I wear teeny-tiny miniskirts and boob-boosting tank-tops, and they are supposed to abstain from wicked thoughts while on a mission…) Weird, but understandable. They say Hi to me, and hold the door for me, otherwise. They are not stoning me or blowing me up. So, how is it that they are the same as splodeydopes?

    So that’s how to get rid of them. :-)

    Nat, we’re gonna have to send you to Mitt Romney rallies.

  17. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    What do a dead atheist, a dead agnostic, and a dead Christian all have in common?

    They all know there’s a God.

    If a person is an atheist or agnostic, that’s fine. The Christian faith compels us to spread His word, which I believe every person in the country has access to. If they choose to ignore Christ’s message, thats their God given free will to do so. They have only God to answer to, not me, not the gummint, not the Catholic Church or any other church. If they see that as more of a threat than Islamofascism, we should just allow them to live in the Sudan and practice their faith of agnosticism or atheism there.

  18. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    if being opposed to the religious right is so wacko, how about this:

    Pat Robertson:

    “You say you’re supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.”
    ————
    This is talking about extreme people, not Baptists, Lutherans, or whatever you guys are. By the way, if you read my earlier post, my immediate concern is Islamic terrorists, so I’m not arguing there is an equal threat.

    (No, I don’t want Islamic fundamentalism, either). If I had a choice, I would prefer the Christian.

    And I was wrong–Fanusi was a vocal atheist

  19. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    if being opposed to the religious right is so wacko,

    No, PC. Being opposed to the religious right (or anything else, for that matter) is not wacko, it’s your right. I may disagree with you, but it’s still your right to be opposed to it.

    Equating the Christian right with Islamofascist head-choppers and child-murderers, on the other hand, is not merely wacko, it’s downright embarrassingly ignorant.

    Pat Robertson:

    “You say you’re supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.”

    You don’t have to be nice to anybody, Pat was quite right about that. All of that “being nice for nice’s sake” is sickening, if you ask me, not merely because I can’t stand that phony, saccharine version of nice, but just as importantly because if you’re nice to everybody just to be nice, then your niceness doesn’t mean a thing ever. How is anybody to know if you’re nice to them because you genuinely like them or just because, well, because…?

    As a general rule, I try to be nice unless I have a compelling reason not to be, and that’s the catch: I have to have a reason to be nice as well. If I can’t find a reason for either, I’m best described as “indifferent.”

  20. Unregistered Comment by mindy1

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    Luckily I am in the 44%. I do not understand ultra religious christians, but as long as they leave me alone, I do not care what others believe. When they threaten me is when I get angry.

  21. Kristopher Comment by Kristopher

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    What do a dead atheist, a dead agnostic, and a dead Christian all have in common?

    They are all dead.

    Anything else is either conjecture or faith … and not provable.

    I think the problem here is militant atheism. They aren’t killing people … what they are doing is even worse … trying to order people to think the way they do, via State use of force. The first amendment demands that the State be silent on the subject of religion … and that includes attempting to supress it.

    If it comes down to using the second amendment to defend the first, this atheist will be up on the wall with the god botherers.

  22. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    PC

    How do you define the Religious Right? I’m a practicing Catholic, hence I’m religious. I’m also slightly to the right of Genhis Khan. Therefore I’m the religious right.

    Christians do not believe that Christianity can be forced upon anyone. A person must voluntarily accept Christ into their lives.

    And what do you call extremist? Pat Robertson is passionate about his beliefs, as am I. Thats why they are convictions and not suggestions. I’ve never heard any Christian in the modern era, and few if any of the heavyweight Christian theologians of the past ever call for forced conversion. Passionate belief is not extremism. Forcing that passionate belief on others is.

  23. Unregistered Comment by LC + IB Gutshot

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    My pastors have quoted Barna. They’re Christian as far as I know.

  24. ACLPoo Comment by ACLPoo

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    I love it when islamics take shots at Christianity - and the ace up their sleeves is the Crusades. That, my Christian friends, is what I call a great track record.
    I could only imagine a group of Christian fundamentalists hijacking a plane - “I want this plane flown to its intended destination, NOW!….or I’ll wait until we land and complain to the appropriate authorities!” Yep, we’re a threat! I cannot believe there are people out there who are stupid enough to equate fundamentalists of these two religions….I don’t want to believe it. You know what it is? Self-styled atheists state they are such so as to sound self-righteous, evolved, above it all. They don’t have to courage to be politically incorrect and verbally target the PROVEN aggressor in religious fanaticism, so they just blanket accuse all of them.

  25. MegaTroopX Comment by MegaTroopX

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    Just call me proud to be a 44%er.

    If it comes down to using the second amendment to defend the first, this atheist will be up on the wall with the god botherers.

    Damn right! I will not let reprobates or retrogrades succeed in their efforts to kill Humanity.

  26. Unregistered Comment by LC + IB Gutshot

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    This is talking about extreme people, not Baptists, Lutherans, or whatever you guys are.

    What do you think the reason is that the Media quotes Pat Robertson like this? Wouldn’t be to shine a bad light on all of Christianity, right?

    In general, Christianity is concerned with self-analysis, not necessarily condemnation. We were told by Jesus to remove the 2X4 from our own eye before going and talking about someone else’s sliver. But I believe most of the vocal, fire-and-brimstone Christians that get airtime are given that airtime to reflect negatively.

    But we’re all human, and none of us are blameless without salvation. Even when we Christians have accepted Jesus, it’s not a badge that means “I’m never going to sin again.” It’s impossible. What it means is that we realize that there’s a Higher Power who can (and has) made it right with us.

  27. MegaTroopX Comment by MegaTroopX

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    suing the pants off everyone that looks at them funny,

    We should be worried about Scientologists?

    Seriously though, it took a nuke to force Japan into sufficient apostasy to join civilization, I really don’t believe Islam will take less.

  28. Haverwilde Comment by Haverwilde

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    To suggest that there is some comparability between the fundamentalist Islamist and the fundamentalist Christian is absurd on it face. To draw comparisons however is another matter. As an old Rabbi friend used to say “Beware the fundamentalist.”
    Whenever a religious dogma dictates a course of action that is irrational or contrary to common sense than, one should listen to your God given mental faculties.
    To ignore the teachings of the New Testament and, instead look for a sin of ‘Homosexuality’ in the Old Testament makes no sense. To demonstrate and spread the message of hate the way that one Baptist Church does is to promote the demonization of a segment of mankind that only aids the forces of evil.
    But to verbally condemn people for a perceived sin is a far less reprehensible action than to behead or stone them as the Muslim’s do.

  29. LC NCLivingBrit Comment by LC NCLivingBrit

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    I’m not a Christian, or Hindu, or a Buddhist or a Muslim or a Jew or any one thing in particular. I’ve got my own rather bitter and entrenched ideas about God and when I’m willing to admit he does exist you’ll rarely find me saying anything complimentary and espousing worship not at all. I eschew profound faith, from both a desire for self-reliance and the discomfort someone with so many questions feels for someone with what they believe are almost all the answers…..

    But you know what, when the time comes to pass that there’s a wall to be standing on, I’ll have not one jot of hesitation in standing with my Christian brothers and sisters. Those who truly follow the words of Jesus Christ (not all the other stuff other folk added on, just the words of that one individual) aim to practice what is best about humankind. So while I may not agree with them, I’ll gladly join them in common cause, in full knowledge that should their espoused faith be even halfway profound, they’ll do the best by me they’re able.

    Those who follow a book that espouses genocide against all who disagree, and lying as a means to an end? Not so much.

  30. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    Natasha,

    You better be careful. We Mormons might really go crazy and bake you a casserole or mow your lawn when you’re sick! :)

  31. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    I don’t know how much of this is directed at me or venting. Nothing I have said is anti-Christian. I was objecting to one branch that I find intolerant. There is a consitutional right to practice your religion of choice. I have always greatly respected people’s faiths. I think Christianity these days is a much more benign religion that fundamentalist Islam. Except for the Army of God, there is very little Christian terrorism (the exception is the white supremacists who claim the bible as the source of their beliefs–but I don’t really consider them Christian).

    ACLPoo
    Are you venting from Fanusi’s post or at me? I’m agnostic, not atheistic–I don’t deny the existence of a god; I just don’t believe. Personally, I don’t feel importart enough to be able to deny the existence of a god.

    Crunchie
    I think you can leave your political beliefs out of your religious views. It doesn’t matter if you are right wing–you said that Christianity involves self conversion. It doesn’t sound like you would be cramming it down anybody’s throat. I had posted before about being agnostic. You haven’t been trying to convert me (religiously, just politically). I don’t think you are a radical right Christian.

  32. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    LivingBrit
    Your post appeared while I was writing (I take forever and try to polish them, since I am the minority view).

    I am in total aggreement with you! I’ve posted before, I strongly believe in the teachings of Christ, even though I don’t believe in him,

  33. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    PC

    For me my political and religious beliefs are one in the same. They draw from each others basic tenets and reinforce each other.

    For example, my belied in the Founding Documents. The Declaration and the Constitution lay out the Judeo-Christian belief that each individual is endowed by God with certain rights. They also hold that government has a higher power, that of the people, and of God itself. Thats why the government does not grant rights. They are pre-existing, granted to all men by God.

    There are many other examples, but lets leave it at that one for now.

    No, I don’t cram my religion down others throats. Thats a style of evangelism I don’t like. I admire it’s practitioners faith, but to me quiet witness through example can be more successful. Thats why I am not comfortable with Baptist worship, to over the top for me. Again, I admire the strength of their faith, but worship for me is a more solemn practice.

    I don’t think you are a radical right Christian.

    But I am PC. I’m radical in that I believe fervently and unequivocally. I’m right wing conservative, and I’m Christian. And I don’t take that as an insult, any more than if I were to call you a liberal you would take it as an insult.

    I think that what you call radical right Christians are neither right, nor Christian. Example being Phelps and his fanatics. The hatred they espouse is definitely not Christian. They are the “false prophets” Christ warned against.

    I’m tired and there a lot more points I want to get out but the words just aren’t there tonight. Hell, I think I butchered the main premise of what I was trying to say already.

    G’nite all.

  34. LC NCLivingBrit Comment by LC NCLivingBrit

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    I strongly believe in the teachings of Christ, even though I don’t believe in him

    Well, I believe in a historical figure by the name of Jesus, the son of a carpenter who spoke publicly and tried to teach his fellow man a better way to live. I believe he was murdered for his teachings, as most of the better men are. As to his being the son of God, that’s where the sure gets awful hazy for me.

    But whoever he was and wherever he came from, I can say this (and at my most English no less):

    I would stand Jesus a pint. He’s a good bloke. Possibly the best bloke we’ve ever seen before or since. One of my favourite stories from the Bible exemplifies the humanity in the figure of Jesus, as well as what was so right in his teachings.

    “Jesus entered the Temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. ‘It is written,’ he said to them, ‘My house will be called a house of prayer but you are making it a den of robbers.’” (Matthew 21:12-13)

    That’s the sort of man I can get behind. Not a cowering PC milksop -pleading- for results, but someone willing to do what is required for their view of righteousness.

    Now in this case, his anger is usually considered to be mostly concerned with the animal sacrifice rather than the petty acts of gouging on the part of the coin-sellers providing the required half-shekels, but still, he exerts the appropriate force against popular opinion for righteous reasons.

    And that I can admire, being as a culture we’re drowning in inappropriate force (mostly political in this country), the wrong reasons for its application and leaders who understand the distinctions of the same not at all.

  35. Yochanon Comment by Yochanon

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    Speakin’ of the useless pile of shit Rosie. Earlier today I saw a blurb about Bob Barker saying he’d go to bat for Rosie taking his place on ‘The Price is Right’.
    I don’t watch it, I have seen it a couple times, just for shits and giggles, but for someone who has absolutely no imagination (me), I *CAN* see what a clusterfuck that’d be if she did take his place!

  36. Alan K. Henderson Comment by Alan K. Henderson

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    I find terms like \”radical Christian\” and \”Fundamentalist\” (unless using the latter in its original sense among people who understand that context) to be a distraction.

    To cite my favorite C. S. Lewis quote, \”Jargon, not argument, is your best ally in keeping him from the Church\” (The Screwtape Letters). It keeps people from other stuff, too - discussing important issues and understanding what each other is talking about. People need to drop the buzzwords and get down to specifics.

    Here\’s a specific worth discussing:

    To ignore the teachings of the New Testament and, instead look for a sin of â??Homosexualityâ?? in the Old Testament makes no sense. To demonstrate and spread the message of hate the way that one Baptist Church does is to promote the demonization of a segment of mankind that only aids the forces of evil.

    Christianity teaches that homosexual sex is a sin. Jesus taught that marriage is an inherently heterosexual union (Matthew 19:4-6), and he upheld a Mosaic law in which one of the recurring themes is that sex outside of marriage is wrong.

    Decades of secular psychological research support this claim. They offer evidence that homosexuality is strongly rooted in negative social experiences during childhood, and that the nature of these experiences vary between individuals - there isn\’t just one formula. Physical and/or sexual abuse during childhood is common to lesbian backgrounds (I recall that Anne Heche reported such); it\’s not illogical to theorize that such traumas could subconsciously alienate women from wanting to be physically intimate with men. (Let me repeat that word: subconsciously - not consciously chosen, not born with.)

    Ironically, molestation by adult men is a factor behind some male homosexuality; NARTH cites Greg Louganis as an example, drawing from his own autobiography. (Evidently the self-defense mechanisms work differently in men and women.) This and a few other factors are cited in this NARTH article:

    Homosexuality is almost certainly due to multiple factors and cannot be reduced soley to a faulty father-son relationship. Fathers of homosexual sons are usually also fathers of heterosexual sons–so the personality of the father is clearly not the sole cause of homosexuality. Other factors I have seen in the development of homosexuality include a hostile, feared older brother; a mother who is a very warm and attractive personality and proves more appealing to the boy than an emotionally removed father; a mother who is actively disdainful of masculinity; childhood seduction by another male; peer labelling of the boy due to poor athletic ability or timidity; in recent years, cultural factors encouraging a confused and uncertain youngster into an embracing gay community; and in the boy himself, a particularly sensitive, relatively fragile, often passive disposition.

    Christians (like myself) may also argue that if God created male homosexuality, God is a sadist. Frankly, the male body is structured to experience maximum sexual pleasure through coitus, and the closest thing to coitus that men can experience with other men is fraught with internal organ damage, at the very least.

    The majority of conservative Baptists and other Christians who don\’t interpret the Bible the way Sandra day O\’Connor interprets the Constitution do not preach hate. If Jesus said to love enemies, that doesn\’t leave much room on the list of people we\’re allowed to hate. Love doesn\’t mean being noncritical. Love has a very simple definition: to value someone\’s well-being. (I don\’t say \”as much as one love\’s one\’s own self\” cuz some people hate themselves.) Guess what? Most biblical Christians take Jesus seriously. Most of the religious conservatives I know are anything but hateful, and they don\’t approve of homosexuality.

  37. Haverwilde Comment by Haverwilde

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    Alan,
    This is precisely what I meant. The lengths some folks go to justify making homosexuality a sin. You quote Matt 19. It is Jesus’ response to a question on divorce. If an argument was made about any sex outside marriage is wrong. Fine. But the sects do not condemn them both equally.
    I do agree that most conservative Christians are not hatefilled, but the lengths that the Westboro Church has gone definitely promotes hate and bigotry.
    I would also take issue with much of what you said about the origins of homosexuality. Some of the modern research puts it into a genetic basis.

  38. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Haverwilde

    “Some of the modern research puts it into a genetic basis.”–so true

    Changing one gene in a fruit fly turns it gay.

    This was published in the highly reputable journal “Cell.” I think you have to be a library to access it online, and also their articles are really difficult to read.

    I think this a screwy link–sorry. A lot of the articles were mostly social commentaries on the research. This one seemed to deal with the research more.

  39. Princess Natasha Comment by Princess Natasha

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    PC! You saw my e-mail addy. E-mail away!

  40. Princess Natasha Comment by Princess Natasha

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    I strongly believe in the teachings of Christ, even though I don’t believe in him

    Humble question from a fellow agnostic: if you believe in the teachings belonging to someone, how can you not believe in the TEACHER who brought them forth?

  41. Princess Natasha Comment by Princess Natasha

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    Hey! Nothing mean, nothing sarcastic… A straightforward question of a wondering(/wandering) mind.

  42. LC NCLivingBrit Comment by LC NCLivingBrit

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    I think she means she believes in his philosophy and teachings but doesn’t believe in his divinity.

  43. Unregistered Comment by leoni2

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    To Yochanon,

    When I was younger, especially when I was either sick or during the summer, I use to watch a game shows, and I’d especially enjoyed watch The Price is Right. Now, while I haven’t seen the show in years, when I’d heard Bob Barker suggesting that he would let Rosie replace him on the show, my mind my thinking, Bob, what in the world are you thinking???? You’re better off just letting the show end then putting that jerk in charge of it. Why, Bob, why????

  44. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Natasha
    reasonable question.

    I kind of mis-spoke. I don’t believe he is the son of God. But I do believe that he lived. I think LivingBrit summed it up perfectly. It may be totally illogical to not believe in his divinity, but I just don’t.

    You”ll regret that e-mail thing! I get voluble (not volatile), but there something you referred to that I was too shy to go onto on the site.

  45. sig94 Comment by sig94

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    PC, this bothered me.

    Personally, I don’t feel importart enough to be able to deny the existence of a god.

    You are very important. Important enough to die for. That was Jesus’ message.

    My daughter just got back from spending almost a year at American University in Cairo. She lived cheek to jowl with muslims and what she observed is that the muzzies and the liberals think very much alike about Christianity and it is based on ignorance and sound bites. Sound familar? The imams and the MSM both provide the sound bites.

    I’m going to try and get her to write some of her experiences down so I can post them but right now she is just so happy to be back in the US. She has no use for arab men at all - she scared us when she told of some of her run ins with these animals. She smacked a few of them and kicked a side view mirror off a car of another. Luckily they were too stunned to retaliate, but she thinks they are cowards anyway.

    I tried telling her over the past year to be more circumspect while going to school in the biggest trailer park in the world but there is a reason why her nickname in high school was “Diesel.” These arabs really do treat women like dirt.

  46. Alan K. Henderson Comment by Alan K. Henderson

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    Here’s something I just blogged that kinda ties in with this thread: why Christians actually like non-Christians. Maybe the only religious screed that contains a reference to Amway.

    Haverwilde:

    Great lengths?

    I quoted that verse because in it Jesus defines marriage. He stated it in response to a divorce question, but it is relevant to any issue that hinges on the definition of marriage (such as fornication or adultery).

    BTW, Jesus was quoting from Genesis. It spells out the ultimate meaning-of-life issue short of the human-God relationship.

    PS:

    I refer you to The Animal Homosexuality Myth. And also consider that twin studies such as Bailey & Pillard have proven that there are people with the same genes (identical twins) but different sexual orientation. Since the studies don’t control for social environment, the studies don’t that out as a factor in the cases where sexual orientation match.

    Even if someone discovers a human gene that can be flipped to turn someone gay, that’s just one factor (and a cruel practical joke to play on someone), and doesn’t discredit the other factors historically associated with homosexuality.

    Who is the chick in yer avatar? Just curious.

  47. HarleyRace (Uber-enlightened) Comment by HarleyRace (Uber-enlightened)

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    (satire only)

    …most atheists and agnostics (56%) agree with the idea that radical Christianity is just as threatening in America as is radical Islam.

    This is bullshit - Christers are 1000 times worse!

    Muslims only get radical in response to racism and bigotry. At worst they are a small nuisance.

  48. JeepThang Comment by JeepThang

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    When the time comes to pass that there’s a wall to be standing on, I’ll have not one jot of hesitation in standing with my Christian brothers and sisters.

    If it comes down to using the second amendment to defend the first, this atheist will be up on the wall with the god botherers.

    Its better to stand on the wall than be stood in front of it.

    It may come to that in the not too distant future.

  49. Unregistered Comment by Lupos87

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    I think the problem here is militant atheism. They aren’t killing people … what they are doing is even worse … trying to order people to think the way they do, via State use of force. The first amendment demands that the State be silent on the subject of religion … and that includes attempting to supress it.

    Excellent point! I think that most of those in the 56th percentile are the Communists, Uber Ethno-Centrists, and young kids who aren’t real Atheists but pretend to be so they can piss their parents off. I knew many of these kids in High School, they treated it like their own clique. They were also boring as hell because all they seemed to do is make jokes about Christians or talk about how they drank so much and did so many drugs the night before that they could barely drag themselves to school in the morning. Dull crowd. Don’t get me wrong, the Uber-Christians weren’t exactly riveting and were also quite one-dimensional in a Mr. Rogers kind of way, but I never exactly feared them. Well, unless I let it slip that I was raised an Episcopal, then they would never shut the fuck up. Anyway, my point is that most Secularists that choose their philosophy for purely intellectual reasons would also be smart enough to vote no. Their are also about a dozen or so “factions” within Atheism, including the militant Atheists as Kristopher pointed out above. I’m sure practicing agnostics who go to various religious services every once in a while and Humanists weren’t likely to vote “Yes” on that poll.

  50. Unregistered Comment by Beartrapper

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    LC, and Allyn, very good posts, LC I am also a conservative Catholic, and I guess that makes me part of the “religous right”, although I’ve never felt that way. I’ve always thought the best way to spread the word was to try to lead by example. If you are honest and fair in your dealings with your fellow man people notice.
    When you get humans involved in trying to explain the divine you start to run into trouble. I have had other Christians tell me I was going to hell, not because I was not their particular denomination, but because I did not belong to a specific church, even though Christ commanded us not to argue doctrines.
    As to the atheists, some 56% of what, maybe 10% of the entire poulation? Big deal!
    The important point is that if I am wrong, I’m dead, end of story. If the atheists are wrong, may the Good Lord have mercy on their souls.

    [QUICK NOTE:  Beartrapper, the LC is a designation which stands for Loyal Citizen (of the Empire), and is not per se part of the commenter’s name.  In other words, we have a lot of LCs here, so addressing a comment to one may get several folks thinking you were specifically addressing them.

    Probably best to use the aprobation behind the LC, for clarity’s sake.  Just sayin’.  Carry on.  -The Management™]

  51. Haverwilde Comment by Haverwilde

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    Alan,
    The chick is actually a guy, it is the statue of the angel heralding the end of the plague of 590 AD. It sits atop the Castel Sant’Angelo in Rome.
    Sorry I can’t link my references. But it was an interesting section in “The Human Genome.”
    Human sexuality is indeed complex and multifaceted. But I believe that the Bible had it right when it forbad Adultery as one of the Ten Commandments, but left fornication off the list and just ‘frowned’ upon it.

  52. Unregistered Comment by Beartrapper

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    My bad, duly noted, should have said Crunchie and Alan(sic)

  53. Terrapod Comment by Terrapod

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    The following letter was sent (with modifiers in recipient name and title) to each of my Senators.

    Members of this list are welcome to use, modify and send at will.

    Dear Madame Senator:

    Kindly listen to your constituents. Poorly crafted and considered legislation, particularly with regards to illegal immigrants and the solutions that are now being put forth, has the potential for long term damage to our nation, our cohesion as a country and the future prosperity of our progeny.

    The short term gain of some 20 million illegals, most of whom are low wage, uneducated and un-assimilable will not produce a healthy national constituency, quite the opposite, you are importing Mexico with all of it’s corruption and faults and planting enclaves of these people into our society.

    We all agree that this needs to be controlled and “fixed”.

    I posit to you that the sequence of actions to resolve this are as follows:

    1) Fund and build a solid fence across the entire southern border, with adequate patrols to ensure integrity.
    2) Establish a national temporary worker ID card system. Without it, no employer can hire a temporary worker. Period. No if’s about it.
    3) Announce that anyone who wishes to legally work in the USA out of the current pool of illegals MUST present themselves at a border checkpoint (from the U.S. side only, that is to say we are NOT setting this up for more Mexicans to enter). They must present some proof of having been employed in the U.S. for over 1 year in aggregate and reveal all I.D. they have used for this purpose, such that it can be traced, cancelled and if “stolen”, the righful holder be advised.
    4) Any employer that hires any worker that cannot either prove U.S. legal residence or show this new “transient worker” ID shall be fined heavily. Make it $100,000.00 per incident without recourse to plea down.

    These 4 steps will, by attrition, force most of the unemployable to leave the country and will allow those who are capable of work to remain.

    Lastly - there is no possibility for any of these temporary workers to gain citizenship. If they wish to become citizens, they must apply from their home country and go on the waiting list like all others.

    There is a 5th point that must be addressed and that is the whole concept of “citizenship” by location of birth. I posit to you that illegals who come to this country and give birth shall not have their progeny become “citizens” automatically. This status shall only apply when the parents are both U.S. Citizens or legal U.S. residents (I.E. holders of a green card). Part and parcel of this decision is that immigrants who come to the U.S. legally should only themselves be admitted. Families are not to be considered part of the deal unless the individual members apply for immigration and are approved on their own merits.

    It stands to reason that America was formed by immigrants who wanted to come here to start a new life, willing to abandon all of their past allegiances to country. This is not so of the transient workers, much less when they are allowed to concentrate into enclaves where they are catered to in their native language and have absolutely no desire or ability to assimilate and drop their fomer citizenship.

    In closing, we are an English speaking nation. It must be made illegal for any branch of the U.S. government to conduct business inside the U.S. in any language other than English. Please see to it that all materials, instructions, forms, voting cards and so on are in English. Either you force all immigrants to assimilate as was the case in the past, or we are balkanizing the country.

    Sincerely,

  54. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    When the time comes to pass that there’s a wall to be standing on, I’ll have not one jot of hesitation in standing with my Christian brothers and sisters.

    If it comes down to using the second amendment to defend the first, this atheist will be up on the wall with the god botherers.

    Thanks. Never doubted it, but thanks all the same. And I’ll be honored to have your company.

    Likewise, should anybody ever try to make Christianity a state religion and force their beliefs on others (highly unlikely, but just for the record), this Christofascist Godbag will be right next to you, locked and loaded, ready to pop off religious fanatics until I run out of ammo.

    Your freedom NOT to believe is every bit as important as my freedom TO believe.

  55. Merc, Imperial SomethingorOther Comment by Merc, Imperial SomethingorOther

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    Dumbasses. Here is an agnostic who knows the difference between Islam and Christianity and Judaism. Its verbal Bitch-slap time!

  56. WayneB Comment by WayneB

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    Alan - Oh, The Screwtape Letters was an awesome book, even for non-religious people! It really shows how you can twist the usage of things to make them appear the opposite.

    crunchie - not all the Baptist groups are as over-the-top as some are. I was raised Baptist, and if they were in the Church that I went to, I would have jumped ship even earlier than I did.

    I will, however, say this: Agnostic or not, I feel that the base Judeo-Christian ethical system has, on balance, been the greatest positive force in history. Despite some of the perversions of such in the past (and the present - yes I mean you, Phred Phelps), it has been instrumental in promoting the freedom and well-being of more people than any other system, ever.

  57. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    Crunchie sez:

    I’m right wing conservative, and I’m Christian.

    …And one of the finest human beings I’ve had the pleasure to meet. Now, could that be a cause and effect kind of thing?

  58. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >Muslims only get radical in response to racism and bigotry.

    Correction, Muslims only get radical in response to waking up in the morning.

    I probably shouldn’t reply to a troll, but, well, it was really easy.

  59. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    Oh, The Screwtape Letters was an awesome book, even for non-religious people! It really shows how you can twist the usage of things to make them appear the opposite.

    On the subject of C. S. Lewis, “Mere Christianity” is truly a book everone should read.

    Christians, Jews, Agnostics, Athiests, Towelheads (er, Muslims)…

    It provides an introduction to true Christianity, not a misguided or hateful (Phelps) perversion of the faith.

  60. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    Why, exactly, isn’t Harley Race wearing a hat?

    If ever there was a pointy head that should be adorned with haberdashery…

    Would certainly improve the ballistics coefficient.

    Maybe some gifted fletcher could even construct some nice feather attachments to stabilize the trajectory.

  61. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    Why, exactly, isn’t Harley Race wearing a hat?

    Fixed the first issue and concur with improved fletching issue.

  62. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    Fixed the first issue and concur with improved fletching issue.

    That’s better. Thanks JB. You Da Man!

  63. Unregistered Comment by LC Elchonon, Imperial Chief of Civil Disobedience

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    This is bullshit - Christers are 1000 times worse!

    Muslims only get radical in response to racism and bigotry. At worst they are a small nuisance.

    I see, so whenthe arabs vandalize jewish holy places I can go wage jihad ?

  64. LC NCLivingBrit Comment by LC NCLivingBrit

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    ready to pop off religious fanatics until I run out of ammo.

    Well having taking the Rottie way into my heart, I can currently empty my home town if I can just stop chuckling long enough to one-shot most of them.

    And more coming tomorrow :D

    But back to the religion issue….. I’ve openly stated an anti-church stance in the past, although that’s changed some in the intervening years. Faith, I can deal with. The Bible is a fascinating book and parts of it are inspirational enough to affect even my jaded, bitter self…..

    It’s -churches- that tend to get to me, as with every organisation the folks you often don’t want in charge are the ones that worm their way to the top. I’m usually fine with 99% of the congregation, it’s when you start hitting Bishop level I get twitchy. As you can imagine, the Catholic Church gives me the screaming ab-dabs :) Beautiful liturgy though, I’ll give em that.

    To sum up: Christ, way cool. Christians, cool. Church, not so much.

  65. LC NCLivingBrit Comment by LC NCLivingBrit

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    I see, so whenthe arabs vandalize jewish holy places I can go wage jihad ?

    I’ll chip in for gas, crowbars, paint and ammo…..

  66. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    I will, however, say this: Agnostic or not, I feel that the base Judeo-Christian ethical system has, on balance, been the greatest positive force in history. Despite some of the perversions of such in the past (and the present - yes I mean you, Phred Phelps), it has been instrumental in promoting the freedom and well-being of more people than any other system, ever.

    Well said WayneB.

    …And one of the finest human beings I’ve had the pleasure to meet.

    Ten, now ya got me all blushing and stuff. Right back at ya sir.

  67. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Fanusi
    I’ve missed your posts, although I think you might have alienated some of the Christians previously. Actually, someone earlier in this thread did link to comments about/by Oriana Fallaci. Sorry–I’m too tired to hunt it down. I think it is before Post 38. I think it was by Alan, but I’ve been known to be wrong.

    Ten-Ten
    I keep writing posts to you and then deleting them. I think that Crunchie is a wonderful person. No question–I can’t believe how nice he has been to me. It might have to do with his religious beliefs, but I doubt it has anything to do with being right-wing. Since when do ideological beliefs make a person nice or not? Right/left–wonderful religious people and assholes on each side (and trust me, I’ve seen each side). And as far as being Christian, there are the most wonderful people that practice Christ’s teachings and are a joy to deal with, and there are hypocrites. Even my conservative Christian neighbor avoids going to church, because she doesn’t like the hypocrites (and she doesn’t think you have to go to a church to worship God.)

    I’ve deleted the specific comments about evil religious people I’ve had in my life. But there have been many wonderful ones–my father was the nicest person on the planet and a really wonderful role model.

    Can you believe I’ve spent over 30 minutes on this post? I am going to age rapidly at this rate.

  68. LC FIAR Comment by LC FIAR

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    As an atheist, I have no idea why you would think this poll was taken by anyone other than a Christian organization. Clearly the goal of this moronic and skewed poll was to depict atheists as drooling idiots that can’t tell the difference between “intolerance,” and murder.

    What LC MoMinuteMan said. I have no fear the the Chistofascist Godbags will soon be calling for heretics to be burned at the stake, but I do know that the Muzzies want to kill anyone and everyone that doesn’t adhere to their psychotic religious views, including Muslims from other sects.

  69. LC NCLivingBrit Comment by LC NCLivingBrit

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    Thomas Jefferson famously took a razor to the old testament and got rid of anything ‘miraculous’, leaving only Christ’s teachings.

    Now that’s an edition I’d like to have. The essence, the core… without all the attached brouhaha.

  70. Unregistered Comment by LC Elchonon, Imperial Chief of Civil Disobedience

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    hmmm well well look at this:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3414607,00.html

    Catholic compound ransacked in Gaza

    School, convent belonging to Strip’s tiny Roman Catholic community burned and looted during last Thursday’s clashes, community head reports

    And this was in response to what provocation?

    A school and convent belonging to the Gaza Strip’s tiny Roman Catholic community were ransacked, burned and looted during clashes around a major security headquarters, the head of the community said Monday.

    Crosses were broken, a statue of Jesus was damaged, and prayer books were burnt at the Rosary Sisters School and nearby convent, said Father Manuel Musallem, head of Gaza’s Latin church.

    oooook so uh wheres the apology ?

    Gunmen used the roof of the school during the fighting, and the convent was “desecrated,” Mussalem said.

    “Nothing happens by mistake these days,” he said.

    I see, I am holding my breath and waiting for the pope to launch a crusade and yeah butcher arabs…in the name of?

    Hamas lawmaker Salah Bardawil denied that Hamas had a hand in the vandalism.

    “The Christians are our brothers in Gaza and everywhere, and we will protect their holy places and school, as we do our Islamic schools,” he said. “But there are some dirty elements who work to harm Hamas’ image … and relations, but this will not happen.”

    Right and islam is a religion of peace…

  71. WayneB Comment by WayneB

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    Can you believe I’ve spent over 30 minutes on this post?

    I have no trouble believing it, because I have done the same thing many times before. I also don’t know how many times I’ve written a comment and then looked at it and thought, “Geez, what an asshole I sound like”, or “Oh, what a whiny sack of sh## THAT makes me sound like”. So I delete it and either just don’t comment, or I start over.

    I get all jealous of people who can be humorous, too, because most of the time when I try, it comes off as serious, and then I’m back to sounding like an asshole again… :P

  72. Cheapshot911 Comment by Cheapshot911

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    and then I’m back to sounding like an asshole again… :P

    Welcome to the club, grab a seat, whadaya drink?

  73. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    But you can accept Christ’s teachings without believing that he was divine (or even that he existed).

    This is allways put forth: “I believe that Jesus was a good, moral teacher.”

    Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6.

    Those are some pretty strong words. They are exclusionary. They leave NO wiggle room at all.

    Jesus used the word “Truth”, many, many times in the Gospels.

    For Jesus to make that statement, if it weren’t true, would make him;

    1. A liar (not a good basis for a good or moral man) or…

    2. Delusional (..on the level of a man who believes he’s a poached egg..C.S. Lewis)

    I keep writing posts to you and then deleting them.

    Psychochick, Why delete them? Let me have it with both barrels! Crunchie is my buddy, and he is one hell of a good guy.. That being said, if the guy worshiped rotten cantalopes, he’d still be my friend, and I wouldn’t think any less of him (although I’d probably stand downwind…).

    You are too right in calling out the heresy that exists within the Christian community. Phred Phelps is one example, be he’s sooooo whacked out that everyone calls him out. It’s the quiet twisting and eroding of Christian doctrine that’s the real culprit.

    As far as thinking that one must adhere to a specific faith in order to be a fine human being…….

    C’MON!…….IT’S SARCASM!!!!!!!!!

  74. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    (although I’d probably stand downwind…).

    D’OH! Ummm, that would be Upwind.

    But you knew that….

  75. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Ten-Ten
    I can be WAY too literal and sometimes miss the sarcasm, but you’ve probably noticed that already. sorry

    Why delete?
    – I take people’s faith seriously and didn’t want to offend anyone

  76. Alan K. Henderson Comment by Alan K. Henderson

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    I was asking about Psychochick’s goth-chick icon.

    Yes, I linked Fallaci - here’s the link. (Had recently read her two books The Rage and the Pride and The Force of Reason.)

    Two of my pet peeves about the homosexuality debate are the dominant emotionalism, especially pervasive within gay activism, and the lack of an open debate on the central issue - whether homosexuality is a disorder. I remember once in some comment thread (at Dan Drezner’s, I think) asking why the leadership of the American Psychiatric Association dedided in 1973 to remove homosexuality from its list of sexual disorders. The only response I got was some dude saying it was “vile” (exact word) to revisit the ruling. I asked what’s so vile about asking for evidence, and got no reply. Nobody (on the left) ever talks about us the rationale behind the ruling. As I once blogged, “We’re expected to believe that homosexuality is psychologically normal without being told why.”

    (Ironically, the same guy who spearheaded the APA decision has recently alienated the other side of the debate by publishing a study showing that sexual orientation can be changed; evidently he believes that homosexuality isn’t inherently bad but it isn’t immutable, either. Social conservatives observe that every other human psychological orientation can be changed - some with greater difficulty than others - and know no reason to suspect that gender preference is any different.)

    not all the Baptist groups are as over-the-top as some are. I was raised Baptist, and if they were in the Church that I went to, I would have jumped ship even earlier than I did.

    I am a latecomer to the Baptist church. A lot of people meeting me would never guess my official denomination; they see the old formal-and-stuffy stereotype of Baptist churches and don’t expect to see in the pews a nerdy intellectual who grooves on sci-fi (TV, film and book), once belonged to the SCA, listens to classical music instead of contemporary Christian, hangs out in the Rottie chatroom, and doesn’t have a childhood filled with vacation bible schools and religious retreats.

    What I look for in a church are sound doctrine, relevancy to the real world, and people who treat you like family. I happened to find those qualities in a couple of Baptist churches since I moved to North Texas.

  77. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    alan
    I’m sorry–I missed that you were asking about the icon. I can’t thank Gunsniper enough for it. He said she was the most psycho chick he could think of–it’s Typhoid Mary from Marvel Comics. It’s the perfect avatar. I’m actually not very psycho, except when people are aggressive to me. I’m 45 and refuse to age gracefully–I am actually quite goth, except that I don’t wear makeup and have resisted the urge to die my hair black. In my line of work, I can dress as I like, unless it’s something offensive.

    Your posts are difficult for me. They are long and thoughtful, but I generally disagree with them, so they take some thought to respond to.

    About the emotion thing, when people feel that their being is threatened, they are bound to become emotional. I think it’s sad to be defined by your sexual preference. I think of my gay friends as a social worker or librarians. Since heterosexuality is the dominant sexual preference, I don’t go around thinking “I’m a heterosexual.”

    And as for the article about changing sexual preferences, I have one word: bisexual.

    I think a lot of the research you cited in a previous post is dated. The neurotic mother thing has long gone by the wayside. There is more and more evidence that homosexuality is genetic and physiological (I am a biologist)

    —One common way to study the effect of genetics vs upbringing is to study twins that have been raised separately. When one twin was gay, the other was much more likely to be gay than would be predicted statistically.

    —There was the fruit fly study–to change sexual preference by altering one gene is highly significant. And if you go who cares about a fly? Fruit flies have been fantastic models for studying embryonic development, among other things. You can make all sorts of creepy mutations that would be totally unethical in humans.

    —When effects on brains are studied, when gay men sniff testosterone, their brains react like a woman’s would

    I’m sure there are lots more studies. That is just the things that immediately pop to mind. Now you can argue that being gay doesn’t mean that you have to give in to your tendencies. But to be honest, I see nothing wrong with it, as long as every one is a consenting adult. And a lot of gay people are religious.

  78. Cheapshot911 Comment by Cheapshot911

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    —When effects on brains are studied, when gay men sniff testosterone, their brains react like a woman’s would

    As testosterone is internally metabolized, it has a smell?,,
    What’s it like?
    No wait,, let’s take it downtown!

  79. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    —There was the fruit fly study–to change sexual preference by altering one gene is highly significant.

    Psychochick, Well, they are called fruit flies…..

    Sorry, just couldn’t let that go by without taking a swing!

  80. Nanashi Comment by Nanashi

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    This is complete and utter BS. I know lots of atheists and agnostics and not a single one thinks Christians are more dangerous than muslims. They probably rigged the answering pool to fit their desired outcome.

    It’s possible. Polls are notoriously unreliable. On the other hand it synchs with what I get to hear from the ninnies around

    I’ve had the displeasure of meeting mostly those in that alleged 56%. For every cool atheist I meet, (Mostly here, like Fanusi. I should have told you you were made of win and awesome long ago) I find at least ten fundamentalist atheists (usually leftards) elsewhere. Sure, I think the places I “hang out” online skew that number. And given, a lot of people online are, quite frankly stupid and talking out their asses. But while I take that poll with a grain of salt, I hate to say that this has been my experience…except it’s seemed that the morons I meet are stupid enough to think “radical Christians” are actually more dangerous.

    That said, I’d rather hang out with a conservative atheist (so long as he or she isn’t a fundie…even Allah over at Hot Air has his occasional fundie moments, sorry to say) than a liberal Christian. I really would, and I’m a bit ashamed to admit that.

  81. Cheapshot911 Comment by Cheapshot911

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    If atheism is considered a movement/organizasion, ‘not sure if I could fit. If it’s a definition, well, call me Mr.44%. (what’s so appealing about that number, hmm)
    If a robe commit’s capital assault against a kid, ain’t no convincin’ me he fears divine retribution,, we’ve found another atheist.

    ‘Suckers are everywhere, dang..

  82. Haverwilde Comment by Haverwilde

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    Well it is interesting that my off hand comment regarding homosexuality early in this thread continues to come up. Alan is characteristic of a large group of Christians that believe “Christianity teaches that homosexual sex is a sin.” Yet he continues to point at items only tangentially related to his belief. Several denominations have split over that belief. Even one Baptist group in the Northwest divided into two different conventions essentially over the issue. I have still not seen one definitive New Testament passage that even addresses homosexuality. Personally I am quite happy being heterosexual. And I can only wish happiness to my homosexual friends. The emotionalism that Alan mentions is not limited to the Gay pride bunch. And I find that ‘in your face’ gay activism as distasteful as I find the ‘damn them all to hell’ emotionalism of those factions of Christians.

  83. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Haverwilde
    “Personally I am quite happy being heterosexual.”

    Boy, I can’t agree with you more. Having a bunch of people hate you and condemn you to hell because of your sexual preference would be really upsetting. (This is not directed at the people who disaprove of homosexuality without invective.)

    And transgendered–now there’s a great way to get beaten to death.

    You know your biblical commentary quite well–I envy you.

    the word of the day the other day was “invective.”–thought that was appropriate

  84. Nanashi Comment by Nanashi

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    Haverwilde: try Romans 1:26 for starters. The NT simply addresses “sexual immorality” or “sexual purity” as umbrella terms to cover everything that the Israelites understood to be sinful in the eyes of God: from things we now accept today (premarital sex, adultery, homosexuality) to things even we still find detestable. (rape, bestiality, incest, paedophilia) The Jewish people understood certain acts to be reprehensible to God as were outlined in the OT, so whenever Jesus discussed sexual immorality, He referenced those listed in the OT for the benefit of Gentiles who may not have seen anything wrong with them. (The Romans, for example, seem to have committed every sexual immorality in the book) And sure, a lot of these were committed in the OT, but they were never in a favourable light. (That incident with Lot’s daughters was intended to squick you out)

    The whole thing about homosexuality in general is that practising homosexuals are, essentially dead in their sins. They don’t go so far as to accept that what they are doing is sinful, much less repent of it. Now, according to the NT, everyone is going to Hell (i.e., eternal separation from God) due to sin, not just practising homosexuals. It’s only the blood of Jesus Christ that pays the toll for the road to a perfect God. (Imperfect beings cannot co-exist with a perfect one, therefore, we must be purified to withstand His presence, and only Jesus can thus purify us in that regard) So even self-identified Christians may not “go to Heaven” if on some level they reject that Jesus was who He said He is. (I hate to bag on the Unitarians, but they are likely the best example of self-identified Protestants who are in for a very nasty surprise on the other side of eternity)

    But the thing here is that this toll has to be acknowledged and accepted. (Not unlike having a care package at the Post waiting for you — you still have to sign for it) And this requires 1) understanding that everyone sins because it’s just in our nature to do so, and 2) repenting of that and asking Him for forgiveness. Refusing to acknowledge sin is an act of a lack of faith (i.e., trust) in Him.

    Now, there are a number of homosexuals who are believing Christians and whom justify their sins to themselves. This is no worse than anyone in the church who, for example, lives in an adulterous relationship. Those people will be able to “enter Heaven” so long as they believe that Christ’s sacrifice atoned for their sins, but they will have to answer for the fact that their sins not only did not please God, but they quite possibly lead others away from Him. (Yes, non-believers do indeed walk away from God because some Christians live in the unrepentant sin they are supposed to eschew. For example, extramarital sex may feel good, but if a non-believer is driven away by that hypocrisy, the sinning Christian will be held accountable)

    But I want to make one thing clear, because a lot of people (even Christians) don’t seem to understand what sin is. What we call “sin” is the unrepentant rebellion against God. Because God is the source of everything we consider morally “good”, rebellion against that is what we call “evil”. Cold-blooded murder is “evil” to just about everyone, and even if we consider laws against it logical for the preservation of society, we still have an instinctual reaction against it. This is because God is our yardstick, (even subconsciously) and in His eyes, such acts go against His will. It is our sinful natures, our capacity to do evil, that make us flawed beings.

    Anyway, sorry if this is all old hat for you. I thought others might want some clarification on the subject of sin.

  85. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Alan is characteristic of a large group of Christians that believe “Christianity teaches that homosexual sex is a sin.” Yet he continues to point at items only tangentially related to his belief. Several denominations have split over that belief. Even one Baptist group in the Northwest divided into two different conventions essentially over the issue. I have still not seen one definitive New Testament passage that even addresses homosexuality.

    There’s a reason why the Bible has two books. The New Testament isn’t “Bible 2.0″ Other than that, I refer to Nanashi, who says it much better than I could ever hope to.

    Personally I am quite happy being heterosexual. And I can only wish happiness to my homosexual friends.

    As do I, whether they repent or not. They have no quarrel with me, only with G-d, and G-d’s business ain’t none of mine. As a matter of fact, I’m so concerned about their happiness that my concern extends to the hereafter. I hate the thought of spending eternity separated from the many wonderful, irreplaceable homosexual friends (ALL friends are irreplaceable) that I’ve made in this life, and I hate even more to think about them being eternally separated from G-d and His love.

    That being said, I will not preach to those who do not express a desire to listen. My duty is to OFFER my hand, NOT to grab them by the collar and irritate them endlessly.

    I honestly don’t understand why stating that homosexuality is a sin and that it will separate you from G-d in the afterlife is always seen as some sort of animosity on the part of the Christian saying it.

    We’re only stating facts as they appear to us in accordance with what we believe in. We didn’t MAKE the rules, we just learned them and are relating them to people, hopefully only people who want to listen. Again, it is our mission to evangelize and HELP, not to annoy.

    If I point out to you that playing in the middle of rush hour traffic on the expressway will likely get you killed, am I being “hateful” or expressing a desire that you get run over? Of COURSE I’m not, nor is it “hateful” for me to point out that looking into the barrel of a loaded gun and pulling the trigger is likely to blow the top of your head off.

    Are there Christians who hate homosexuals because they’re homosexuals? I’m sure there are. Phred Phelps Phelch and his inbred gaggle of swinepukes spring to mind. Bigoted arseholes come in all shapes and sizes, however. It is not my Christian faith that makes some people behave like pricks, any more than atheists who hate redheads learned to be that way from being atheists.

    Eternal torture, sadism unparalleled by even the worst horrors of Auschwitz and Vorkuta, are okay then?

    Take that up with G-d, Fanusi. He made the rules, we didn’t. I don’t much like the effects of gravity upon my body if I jump from the top of a tall building either, but I sure ain’t blaming my physics teacher for the consequences.

    Besides, the true torment of Hell is the separation from G-d. Eternal separation, mind you. Oh yes, there are quite a few colorfully detailed descriptions of all the nasty specifics around, most of them made up on the spot by preachers wishing to scare people straight or to provide their lambs with something they can relate to better than “separation from G-d”, but again: We didn’t make the rules.

    Besides, if you honestly don’t believe that there is a Heaven or Hell, why on Earth does it bother you so to be told that you’re going to end up in either?

    That’s another thing I cannot for the life of me understand.

  86. WayneB Comment by WayneB

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    cheapshot - For beer, I drink Guiness if available, or whatever is cold otherwise. :) For mixed drinks I have found a strange liking of Mojitos.

  87. Haverwilde Comment by Haverwilde

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    Emperor Misha I,

    With all do respect,

    I honestly don’t understand why stating that homosexuality is a sin and that it will separate you from G-d in the afterlife is always seen as some sort of animosity on the part of the Christian saying it.

    Does it separate one from G-d? I personally don’t believe it. No more than heterosexuality separates one from G-d. To act lovingly in accordance with one’s G-d given sexual orientation cannot separate one from G-d, unless that god is a vile and demonic being. So when I consider the heavens, the work of his fingers, the moon and the stars which he has ordained, I am awed by the majesty of his being. And I believe most fervently that he is much bigger than what is portrayed by some of his homophobic followers.

  88. Unregistered Comment by leoni2

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    To PC,

    45? Blink blink? Good god almight, seems to keep finding fellow x-ers in the strangeous places.

  89. Unregistered Comment by angryfederalist

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    Although I am late to this thread, I would still like to add my .02.

    I am an atheist, and a rather strong atheist at that. Notwithstanding this fact, I do not think that theists are either “weak minded” (to quote Jesse Ventura) or foolish.

    I tend to agree with many of the moral and social positions of the “Religious Right” and strongly believe people’s religious and moral convictions must necessarily inform and guide their political beliefs. And unless and until Conservative Christians start strapping on suicide vests and blowing up school buses with Jewish school children, I will never consider them a threat; let alone one on par with “Radical Islam”. A religious system, which in IMNSHO, is among the most vile and pernicous ideologies to ever ooze out of men’s minds.

  90. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    angryfederalalist.
    In general, I agree that Christians don’t go around rampantly killing people.

    However, we do have a history of racial murders and a lot of lynchings in this century by people who considered themselves good Christians. Fortunately, things change. This is no slap against current Christians. I don’t blame current Christians for past bad deeds any more than I blame myself for the Holocaust.

    My point was actually rampages against children. This is certainly abnormal behavior in this country, but there was that guy that shot up a Jewish school in LA (I think it was an elementary school). He did have mental problems at least. It’s no way to get support for your cause by killinng children (luckily none were killed). Also, he had been an Aryan Nations member, and I don’t really consider them Christian.

    What’s up with the Unitarian thing? Couldn’t ask for a nicer bunch of people. I don’t go their services, since I’m agnostic. But we were married by one (who had married Bruce Springsteen).

    Now, I need to go to work!

  91. Alan K. Henderson Comment by Alan K. Henderson

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    I think a lot of the research you cited in a previous post is dated.

    Research into homosexuality has been around for roughly a century. Modern researchers on both sides of the aisle will occasionally cite “dated” stuff - Alfred Kinsey (late 1940s) will get cited by one side, studies from the 50s or 60s will get cited by the other. Bailey & Pillard (cited by both sides of the debate, ironically) was published in 1991, and Spitzer in 2001.

    The neurotic mother thing has long gone by the wayside.

    That’s an oversimplification. “Neurotic” can describe a lot of psychological problems, only some of which are historically associated with the profiles of moms of male homosexuals. One I’m aware of is the mom who strongly interferes with the male child’s peer life.

    One common way to study the effect of genetics vs upbringing is to study twins that have been raised separately. When one twin was gay, the other was much more likely to be gay than would be predicted statistically.

    I’ve occasionally run across stories where researchers express the desire to conduct such studies, but how do you find enough of two rarities - a) separated-at-birth identical twins where b) at least one is gay - to conduct such a study?

    Twin studies should examine all possible factors and not just biology. Bailey and Pillard didn’t study the sexual histories of the subjects or the psychological profiles of the parents, or other social-environmental factors that have been associated with homosexuality. One of the first rules of science: control for all possible factors.

    All these studies examine one question: what causes it? But there is another question to which the quest for the holy gay gene grail is totally irrelevant: is it psychologically healthy? Psychological orientation can be physiological in origin and be bad for you; paranoid-schizophrenia is a classic example.

    The question opens a huge can of worms. It is complicated by the historical evidence that homosexuality has multiple factors. I would look for behaviors found disproportinately among gays, and further check to see if those behaviors are disproportionately associated with any of the historically identified factors.

    One of the most commonly-cited observations is that gay men molest children in greater proportions than heterosexual men. I would expect that virtually all such gays are those who were molested by adult men during childhood. The observation draws thermonuclear responses because a) it says something nasty about a large minority of gay males, and b) it challenges the political correctness holy words that all homosexuality is inherently innocuous.

    (One could take a middle-of-the-road approach and claim that some homosexuality is bad and some is harmless, but that voice is hard to find.)

    Ironically, the gay lobby’s reaction reinforces a common perception that overestimates the support of pedophilia among gays, especially among those old enough to remember when gay activists still allowed NAMBLA to participate in gay parades. The activists are actually quite divided on NAMBLA, and activists aren’t representative of all gays.

    I recall seeing other examples: drug abuse among lesbians and narcissism among gay males comes to mind. This article reports “higher rates of suicide, depression, bulimia, antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse” among gays. One thing I’d like to see researched is how gays compare to straights with regard to building close relationships with the gender to which they are not sexually attracted.

  92. Nanashi Comment by Nanashi

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    Eternal torture, sadism unparalleled by even the worst horrors of Auschwitz and Vorkuta, are okay then?

    That’s not Hell, though. Hell isn’t actually a place, per se, but a state of being. It’s an eternal separation from God. Dr. Tony Evans described Hell as being like solitary at Alcatraz: no contact with other prisoners, complete isolation, and you can just make out the lights of San Francisco on the horizon where the free citizens are but can never join in. It’s not so much where you are but a matter of what your condition is. You are, simply put, removed from everything “good”, i.e., God. And like most prisoners that were sent to Alcatraz, the one who refuses God’s company sends himself there.

    That’s another thing that trips up non-believers: how can an all-loving God “send people to Hell”? That’s just it: He doesn’t. We have free will, and He won’t force us to stay with Him if we really don’t want to. If we don’t choose Him, we choose the default eternity: what we call Hell.

    I know some people also wonder why did He give us free will if the alternative is so bad. But I don’t see how loving a mannequin (Kim Cattrall aside) could be considered true love, because that’s what it would be like if He kept us in His company without our choosing. It would be the same as me forcing my ex not to leave me even if he didn’t love me any more. (Or at least not without being seen as some creepy stalker) Yes, I know these aren’t perfect analogies, but that’s the best I can do with the material I have.

  93. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Alan
    Must we argue so? I’m not going to convince you, and you aren’t going to convince me. But everything is being done courteously, so I will continue.

    I was arguing the neurotic mother thing as not being considered a reason for homosexuality. I had a terribly neurotic mother and am one of the most neurotic people on earth. There probably is a correlation there.

    This really sucks–my work computer is too slow to be typing. I drove 40 miles and don’t have the nitrogen tank I ordered 2 weeks ago, so I can’t work. Grrr.

    I do kind of wonder how they have so many twins to study. They must be put up for adoption separately on a frequent basis. Did you know tiwns were more likely to survive the Holocaust, since they were used in medical experiments?

    The research I am familiar with says that heterosexual males are responsible for the majority of pedophilia towards boys (coaches, scout leaders) [they must have latent tendencies]. (I’ll try to come up with the research when I have time). This is just my opinion, but I think the people that repress their homosexuality are more likely to molest than gays in an active relationship. Commentaries from the Family Research Council are not reliable to me. (Although, it’s good to know you are into them–I won’t say anything rude.)

    And yes, having a genetic disposition doesn’t make it okay. I’m bipolar–I could do without it. (It’s being well treated, but I need 12 hours of sleep a night, and the drugs cause diabetes) Being genetic does not make it okay. If being an axe murderer were genetic, we certainly wouldn’t condone it. (I now own an axe! :)) I can see that if you consider homosexuality a sin, it wouldn’t matter if there was a genetic component.

    What else–oh yeah, mental health. Gay teenagers are way more likely to commit suicide than straight ones. That probably is due to persecution rather than intrinsic mental health issues. Hell, I was persecuted and suicidal in high school(and the bipolar didn’t kick in until my 30s).

    I could see there being mental health issues among gay people. Knowing that some people hate you and want you dead would greatly bother me and would contribubute to my mental issues. (This is different to me than just disapproving of the lifestyle.) In some places, you could be fired and kicked out of your apartment for being gay. Being effeminate could get your head bashed in. I think these things would contribute to mental health issues, but not necessarily intrinsically from being gay. I did go to the site you linked to. It was interesting, but seemed biased to me (no, I don’t assume that everything I disagree with is biased).

    I’ve never met anyone that approved of NAMBLA, and I have run in gay circles a lot. I would hope there is a lot of surveillance on them.

    I think it’s pretty normal for gay men to have a lot of female friends. I don’t know as much about lesbians.

    Narcissism is hardly restricted to gays!

  94. Nanashi Comment by Nanashi

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    What’s up with the Unitarian thing? Couldn’t ask for a nicer bunch of people. I don’t go their services, since I’m agnostic. But we were married by one (who had married Bruce Springsteen).

    As people, absolutely nothing, which is why I said that I hate to bag on them. But they aren’t going to “get to Heaven” in their current belief state. The only thing that can admit us into God’s presence is what we call the “blood of Jesus”, that is, the price He paid to atone for the sins that separate us from God.

    As far as I understand, Unitarians reject not only the divinity of Christ, but also the whole concept of the Trinity. This isn’t a simple doctrine disagreement, such as when to baptise. Catholics may believe in baptism shortly after birth, most Protestants when the one being baptised is old enough to choose, and Baptists in full-dunking…but none of these are central to the question of eternity. Accepting that Christ is who He proclaimed to be and accepting that He and He alone can atone for our sins is what “saves”, what makes someone an actual Christian vice a simple Jesus fan. Not “good deeds”, not “living rightly”. These are pleasing to God, but they aren’t enough to make up for the evil in all our hearts, which is what separates us from Him. Even being a “Christian” is not enough…only placing trust (faith) in Jesus can bring us to God.

  95. Nanashi Comment by Nanashi

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    And just to bring the other side of the above statistic, which I do believe, here is an article about how some Christians - though I have no idea how many - warn of the ‘twin threats of atheism and Islam’. Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.

    *shrugs* The only ones I see as dangerous are the ones actively trying to overturn the part in the First Amendment regarding “the free exercise thereof”. (I think everyone understands I’m talking about angry fundie atheists here) But I don’t see them as any more dangerous than, say, Fred Phelps. And neither of them are anywhere near as dangerous as the threat of fundamentalist Muslims.

  96. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

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    To act lovingly in accordance with one’s G-d given sexual orientation

    Oh?  You have proof of this?

    Please, do  share… 

  97. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    I am awed by the majesty of his being.

    That’s a good start. But then, you would also be in awe of the majesty of the Bengal tiger that was about to tear you to peices. Admiration and adherence to his commands are two totally different things.

  98. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    To act lovingly in accordance with one’s G-d given sexual orientation cannot separate one from G-d, unless that god is a vile and demonic being.

    How could God give a person a sexual orientation that is in direct opposition to his law? He could not. God designed sexuality to be between the Married man and woman only. ANY sexual activity outside of marriage is verboten by God. So, Christian doctrine is not picking on homosexuals. It is condemning ALL sexual impurity.

  99. Alan K. Henderson Comment by Alan K. Henderson

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    The Family Research Council article does have heavy scientific documentation - 76 footnotes.

    I do admire James Dobson (FRC is his outfit) for his wisdom on family and relationship matters. Planning to get his book Bringing Up Boys for an expecting mom I know.

    NAMBLA involvement in gay pride activities is a historical fact. It’s one that gay activism refuses to explain, and its silence breeds a great deal of mistrust. It gives many the impression that activism approves of NAMBLA. The truth is that there are probably multiple motives behind the appeasement of NAMBLA. There is certainly a subset that disapproved of NAMBLA’s participation but did nothing because it did not have the power to do so (think of the donkey in Animal Farm), and gay activist groups such as GLAAD officially condemn NAMBLA today (I’ll let y’all Google for it), but I’m unaware of any voices calling for the segment of gay activism that gave NAMBLA a platform at all those rallies to explain and to apologize for its complicity.

    The research I am familiar with says that heterosexual males are responsible for the majority of pedophilia towards boys

    In raw numbers, but if it were proportinate straight males would account for 97-98% of boy molesters. (To be nitpicky, nobody can be 100% heterosexual and be sexually attracted to boys.)

    Almost nobody’s minds ever get changed in these Internet arguments, but hopefully people learn why other people believe as they do.

    I find the behavioral sciences in general utterly fascinating, whether the topic is sexuality or economics (it’s about the behavior of resource allocation, not just numbers). It takes a lot of emotional detachment to delve into sexuality, which isn’t particularly difficult for me because a) I’m not a spiteful person, and b) gay issues don’t directly affect me.

    It’s almost time for work. Catch ya later.

    Narcissism is hardly restricted to gays!

    Indeed.