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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » More Persecution of the Border Patrol
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You are viewing the Archives for 2007.......If you want the current page, CLICK HERE.......

…once again, a Border Patrol agent is facing murder charges for doing his job, enforcing the law that no RINOs will enforce.

This time, the Border Patrol made the mistake of shooting down a Mexican criminal getting ready to throw a big rock in his face. Of course, it didn’t help his case any that local authorities made sure that Mexican consulate officials were given ample time to carefully coach the stories of the only witnesses, all of whom were criminals as well, before the Border Patrol could interrogate them.

Elsewhere, in news that happen too regularly to be properly called “news”, another drunken illegal alien murders three innocents that no Americans will murder.

As in almost every single other case like this one, the illegal alien and multiple murderer had numerous previous arrests but, thanks to the “see no evil, hear no evil, let evil back on the street as quickly as possible” policies in effect, he hadn’t been deported.

If our immigration laws already on the books had been enforced, three people would be alive instead of dead today. Yet today we’re supposed to believe that the liars in DC will enforce the laws this time (as long as they get their amnesty first, of course)?

You know, just like they did in 1965 and 1986 WHEN THEY PROMISED THE EXACT SAME THING.

Better give him a Z-visa, Jorge Arbusto!

69 Responses to “More Persecution of the Border Patrol”
  1. Unregistered Pingback by Inoperable Terran » More murders Americans won't commit

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    […] that’s plural. Posted by Ian S. […]

  2. Yochanon Comment by Yochanon

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    [IMG]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/Pillbottle/IllegalsKnowTheTruth.jpg[/IMG]

    If that image don’t work, go here:

    http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/Pillbottle/IllegalsKnowTheTruth.jpg

  3. LC NCLivingBrit Comment by LC NCLivingBrit

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    As a legal immigrant I have but one thing to say:

    Get a rope. Once we’re done with that, then let’s go get -our- border agents out of the slammer however we have to do it.

    You don’t trump up charges against the people who do their (hampered) best to keep drugs, criminals and the illegal scourge out of your homes. You honour them, respect them and reward them.

    If we insist on making our border security the subject of show trials to placate our illegal voters and their Leftist activist friends, we’re going to wake up and find our borders abandoned, totally open and free to any and all who wish to cross it, for fair reasons or foul.

    You know, the way our “leaders” seem to want it.

  4. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    I wonder if government officials (at all levels) have forgotten that if pushed to a certain point people will rise up and take their country back. A couple of centuries without a full-on revolt against the government is likely to make the government rather complacent.

    We’re not there yet, but I can’t deny that it appears to me that our government is intent on getting us to that point as quickly as they can.

    Or, maybe they just really are as incredibly stupid as they seem.

  5. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    I wonder if government officials (at all levels) have forgotten that if pushed to a certain point people will rise up and take their country back.

    If we haven’t attempted to do it by this point, I’m not sure we ever will. The Government has already done more to crush the Constitution and our rights far more than what was being done in 1776. They rose up over unfair taxes and illegal intrusion by British forces, and the right to practice their religion as they saw fit.

    We’re being taxed far more than our Fore Fathers. We’re being invaded by illegals that are being INVITED in by our Government. Our First and Second Amendments have already been whittled away. Elections are rife with fraud, our borders are wide open and those that have been tasked with protecting them are jailed for doing their jobs….etc., etc. and so forth.
    We’re still sitting on our asses waggling our fingers and telling Washington..”Don’t make us angwy…you wouldn’t like us when we’re angwy“….

    And Congress and President NoBalls are laughing their asses off at us.

  6. Unregistered Comment by Farmor

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    please tell me it’s a horrible joke - since when can’t you protect your selv any more? And I was so happy to be in TX again - Thank heaven my son was showed me how to use a gun (pistol) - oh yes - I was at the Ranch - and oh yes I did try to shoot - even if I never tried that before, but since my grandchrilden could do it - I kind of thought - I could do so too - Ask the emperor, how that was. YES

    Lots of love
    Farmor

  7. BITOA Comment by BITOA

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    AT LAURAINGRAHAM.COM THERE IS A LIST OF (15)
    WEAK SISTERS IN THE SENATE WHO MIGHT CAVE AND VOTE FOR CLOTURE (PASS)THE ILLEGAL AMNESTY BILL.
    WE NEED TO PRESS DOWN ON THESE LORDS AND TAKE THE MESSAGE TO THEM! ON A PIKE!
    ALL ARE LISTED ON ACU WEB PAGE. CHOOSE “TAKE ACTION”

  8. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Elsewhere, in news that happen too regularly to be properly called “news”, another drunken illegal alien murders three innocents that no Americans will murder.

    I don’t think that his legal status really has any bearing on his crime. You are choosing to highlight the fact that this particular pustule was illegal. Do you make the same ruckus on the hundreds of legal citizens who murder and commit crimes in this country on a daily basis?

    Granted, if this pustule hadn’t been in this country illegally, then the three people wouldn’t have been murdered. If my Aunt had balls, she’d be my Uncle.

  9. MegaTroopX Comment by MegaTroopX

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    If for no other reason than the following, the law needs to be enforced:

    When people start doing the enforcing themselves, it’s far uglier than it needs to be.

  10. MegaTroopX Comment by MegaTroopX

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    BTW, Misha, did my email get through to you?

  11. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    If my Aunt had balls, she’d be my Uncle.

    This is true, but she didn’t, therefore she is your Aunt. If this guy had been a legal resident we would be screaming about why his ass wasn’t in jail. Being he’s illegal, we’re going to scream about why wasn’t his ass deported.

    Saying something could be otherwise in a different situation doesn’t change the facts of what is.

  12. Cheapshot911 Comment by Cheapshot911

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    OK DJ

    It don’t mean nuthin’?
    If your aunt had balls?
    If something were something else it wouldn’t be this?
    There’s some lefty logic!
    The problem is,,it IS this..

    I don’t think that his legal status really has any bearing on his crime.

    ..That’s illegal status,,to be snarkily accurate.
    ‘Not sure if you get the point Allyn, I can see you understand that there would BE no crime or death in this case and many many others if the laws were enforced, and now we have another smoking,,,er,,gun, and the victims have,,well, used to have faces.

    But why worry about this alien killer and not the others?

    Oh, we worry about them others too. But when they get the law throwed at ‘em it’s gonna’ hurt them bigger and longer, as legal citizens have only one identity.

    This guy went through the system twice before without anyone noticing his alien status,,can you say eye’s wide shut?
    That there is the point of the post.

  13. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Being he’s illegal, we’re going to scream about why wasn’t his ass deported.

    Well, it is a little late to talk about deporting him — ass and all. I would go for the mandatory death penalty after a trial given his status.

    If this guy had been a legal resident we would be screaming about why his ass wasn’t in jail.

    I’m sorry, but I have looked all over this page for the screaming about the other murders that happened over the past 24 hours. All I am seeing is this one.

    The point I am trying to make here is that it seems that this particular murder is outrageous only because it was perpetrated by an illegal alien, NOT the fact that a skinsack of putrid material committed a crime regardless of his status in this country.

    This guy went through the system twice before without anyone noticing his alien status,,can you say eye’s wide shut?

    And you don’t think that a citizen can’t go through the system twice and get away with it? Or that it doesn’t happen?

    Don’t get me wrong, I am just as upset about this stuff as you are. But I am making the observation that many people tend to point out the few incidents and use that to paint the entire group with the same brush.

    Yes, these people are illegal aliens, but only a tiny fraction of them are violent criminals. The large majority of these illegals come here for work, because there are companies that will hire them. Aside from the initial act of illegal entry, they are typically law abiding people.

  14. Unregistered Comment by Mark6591

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    DJ,

    Don’t be such a PC wanker.

    Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by U.S. Congressman Steve King (R-IA). If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That’s 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001.

    Total U.S. troop deaths in Iraq as of last week were reported at 2,863. Total U.S. troop deaths in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Uzbekistan during the five years of the Afghan campaign are currently at 289, according to the Department of Defense.
    But the carnage wrought by illegal alien murderers represents only a fraction of the pool of blood spilled by American citizens as a result of an open border and un-enforced immigration laws.

    While King reports 12 Americans are murdered daily by illegal aliens, he says 13 are killed by drunk illegal alien drivers – for another annual death toll of 4,745. That’s 23,725 since Sept. 11, 2001.

    While no one – in or out of government – tracks all U.S. accidents caused by illegal aliens, the statistical and anecdotal evidence suggests many of last year’s 42,636 road deaths involved illegal aliens.
    King also reports eight American children are victims of sexual abuse by illegal aliens every day – a total of 2,920 annually.

    Read the rest of the article, if you can stomach it.

    http://maggiesnotebook.blogspot.com/2007/06/illegal-alien-crime-no-one-wants-to.html

    That is right. It is an illegal Mexican crime invasion primarily.

  15. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    I don’t think that his legal status really has any bearing on his crime.

    Oh but it does! Not so much for the criminal in question, rather for the multitudes of open border advocates who are now accessories to this crime and every other crime committed by illegals past, present and future.

    Innocent blood is on their hands. (It’s and old cliche but it fits.)

  16. Unregistered Comment by hawkeye54

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    Evidently, illegals are becoming fully aware of what our government is doing to our Border Agent. I heard a report that slingshots are now being used in addition to rock-throwing at our agents.

    Also heard a story that those who can are leaving Tucson as drug smugglers and illegals are overwhelming law enforcement in the outskirts and some parts of the city and are just beginning to turn it into a warzone. ANyone else know what is going on around Tucson? I hear or read little or nothing in Mainstream Media. If this is true looks like we need the regular Army or Marines to be deployed on the border instead of Iraq.

  17. Cheapshot911 Comment by Cheapshot911

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    The point I am trying to make here is that it seems that this particular murder is outrageous only because it was perpetrated by an illegal alien,

    Nope, that’s your skewing of the message.

    The message is; if we enforced the law, these people would not be dead.
    The message is; chances to head off this and a zillion other disasters are pissed away everyday, because folks like YOU find all these great reasons to mis-state, misunderstand, placate and obfuscate about what the problem really is,,then ya snipe at those that would pick up a tool and get to work.

  18. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by U.S. Congressman Steve King (R-IA). If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That’s 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001. [Emphasis added]

    And just where did he come up with these figures?

    The DOJ records only go up to 2004 (Gonzales not only doesn’t know anything, he apparently isn’t interested in collecting data either). In 2004, there were 16,137 homicides. I doubt seriously that 1/4 of them were done by illegal aliens.

    I would rather see DOJ rates than something a Congresscritter obviously dug out of his ass.

    When I did a quick google search for this comment, I came up with the following question from MyTend:

    Who has the higher crime rate illegal aliens or blacks in america?

    Obviously a racist question, since it pretty much assumes that only these two groups commit crimes. There is also the other assumption that illegal aliens are a ‘race’, and that they are all brown.

    The easy answer to this question is obviously the illegal aliens, since in order for them to be ‘illegal’, they had to commit a crime.

    duh.

    But this is the mindset of many people when they talk about illegal aliens. They see brown people. They don’t see illegal white people, illegal Asians (there are many), and illegal Indians. No, most of those came here legally, and then became illegal by overstaying their visas.

    I live an hour and a half from the Canadian border. There are crossings that “close” at night, but you can still drive through them. They are simply unmanned, with no barricades. I drive back and forth all the time, not because I am trying for illegal entry (I have dual citizenship) but because it is more convenient to visit my friends and family. But I know that there are many, MANY people who cross over here to work and live that do not have permission. I have a lot of friends from up there who work here in Washington, but do not have permission — but they do it anyways. They go home at night, back to British Columbia, and nobody’s the wiser.

  19. Unregistered Comment by JoeBigsky770

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    New word:

    Amnexation n. “General pardon for [a] person (or) persons granted by government that serves as a precursor towards reconciling their territories with a larger, more significant territory“.

    Whether we should want it, or not.

  20. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    DJ:

    I think no one here on this board is picking and choosing a better or worse form of murder( illegal vs. legal argument). Their point is this; Most illegals who drive drunk and kill people are usually subsequent offenders of other crimes. The conflict is the inadequate justice system, government policies and “Sanctuary Cities”. If people would ENFORCE the laws already on the books and start giving drunk drivers (legal or illegal) much more harsh sentencing, it would be a good start. Although, that does not “fix” the situation. The problem lies with liberal activist judges who “rehabilitate” rather than PUNISH the convicted. Mayors, Sheriffs, and Police in Sanctuary Cities DO NOT turn over illegal aliens once apprehended to Homeland Security(some do not even ask residence status). They just let them back out to the streets with a minor fine and/or community service and “Alcohol Counseling”. That is how the illegals who wanted to kill soldiers at Fort Dix stayed around New Jersey for 12 years. They had a rap sheet as thick as the amnesty bill.

    No one here (I for one), are not stating that DUI/Vehicular Homicide is worse when it is illegal aliens …just because they are illegal. That is just building a straw man to knock it down. We are saying it could have been avoided, due to the fact, they are 90% of the time previous offenders and should have been dealt with before these tragedies happened, whether they are illegal or not. However, the fact that they ARE illegal should (in most cases) make the sentencing more harsh. However, since the justice system is lackadaisical on sentencing (almost down right corrupt when you think of the border patrol agents being shafted for doing the job that they swore to do),it shows people like me that NEITHER one of the problems (legal or illegal) is going to be fixed, because the powers that be are not being able to do the job THEY (Courts, Police, Government) swore to do.

  21. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    Obviously a racist question, since it pretty much assumes that only these two groups commit crimes. There is also the other assumption that illegal aliens are a ‘race’, and that they are all brown.

    The easy answer to this question is obviously the illegal aliens, since in order for them to be ‘illegal’, they had to commit a crime.

    duh.

    But this is the mindset of many people when they talk about illegal aliens. They see brown people. They don’t see illegal white people, illegal Asians (there are many), and illegal Indians.

    How is that a Racist Comment??? That was just a statistical comparison to show a point.

    here is also the other assumption that illegal aliens are a ‘race’, and that they are all brown.

    Who here assumed that ? Did you pull THAT out of YOUR ass?

    No, most of those came here legally, and then became illegal by overstaying their visas.

    How does it make it anymore LESS illegal? Breaking the law is breaking the law.

    NO ONE should be here illegally, no matter what. If you love this country and what it has to offer. You should do the Citzens a favor and respect our laws and do things right. Period.

  22. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    and oh yes I did try to shoot - even if I never tried that before, but since my grandchrilden could do it - I kind of thought - I could do so too - Ask the emperor, how that was. YES

    And her modesty keeps her from letting you know that she, in spite of having never fired a gun before and having serious personal reservations about doing so in the first place, never hit outside the 9 ring.

    I, however, am not inhibited by modesty (as you all know only too well), so I’d like to point that out.

  23. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    I don’t think that his legal status really has any bearing on his crime. You are choosing to highlight the fact that this particular pustule was illegal. Do you make the same ruckus on the hundreds of legal citizens who murder and commit crimes in this country on a daily basis?

    Deej, what I make a huge ruckus about is that he, as well as those I highlight, had numerous prior convictions that would have resulted in deportation had our EXISTING LAWS BEEN ENFORCED.

    Besides, “native citizens do it as well” doesn’t work all that well with me. Not that that it’s factually incorrect, but do we really need MORE of them? Seems to me we have no trouble breeding swine ourselves, so why import them?

  24. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    BTW, Misha, did my email get through to you?

    Which one, my friend?

  25. Trooper THX1138 Comment by Trooper THX1138

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    DJ, since he is a Mexican National (as he is not here legally) we are barred from not only executing him for his crimes, but even from giving him life without parole, by our extradition treaty with Mexico.

  26. Unregistered Comment by Rainy

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    No surprise guys:

    Police agencies in Colorado turned over the names of at least 15,000 suspected illegal immigrants to federal authorities during the second half of last year.

    Their offenses ranged from minor infractions to first-degree felonies but each referral was in compliance with a new state law designed to get tough on illegal immigration.

    Law enforcement officials, however, debate whether the new law is having its intended effect.

    They said they doubt the enhanced reporting has led to any more deportations of criminal illegal immigrants. “I still sense that there is simply no infrastructure in the federal system in place to actually do anything with these undocumented aliens beyond the occasional, token deportations,” said Aurora Police Chief Daniel Oates.

    The rest:

    http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5590948,00.html

  27. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Obviously a racist question, since it pretty much assumes that only these two groups commit crimes. There is also the other assumption that illegal aliens are a ‘race’, and that they are all brown.

    No, Dave, it isn’t. Take off the librul goggles, and it becomes a legitimate question without racist overtones at all. There are no assumptions that only blacks or illegals commit crimes, only a question as to which has a larger part of the total. Nor is there an assumption that “illegal” is a race, other than through the librul goggles. Normal people can read this without making such assumptions, and it’s not “code”.

    The crime is something that could have been prevented by following the legal requirement for illegal aliens caught here - deportation - and removing the subject of this crime before it is committed.

    And you don’t think that a citizen can’t go through the system twice and get away with it? Or that it doesn’t happen?

    Not at all, but why make it easier for the criminals?

    But this is the mindset of many people when they talk about illegal aliens. They see brown people. They don’t see illegal white people, illegal Asians (there are many), and illegal Indians. No, most of those came here legally, and then became illegal by overstaying their visas.

    There ya go again. I could give a flying damn where they are from, only that they are cutting the line, breaking into our country like a burglar. A second story man. A thief in the night. I have nothing against “brown people” - my concern is that WE DO NOT FUCKING KNOW WHO IS COMING IN. I refuse to penalize people who follow the rules to give something precious to criminals. SEND THEM ALL BACK.

    But I know that there are many, MANY people who cross over here to work and live that do not have permission. I have a lot of friends from up there who work here in Washington, but do not have permission — but they do it anyways. They go home at night, back to British Columbia, and nobody’s the wiser.

    . . . and they are illegal aliens, as well, and deserve the same punishment as the “browns” as you characterize them. Again, I don’t give a damn where they are from. A bug zapper across the northern border is just as appropriate (and as needed) as the one across the southern border.

  28. Cheapshot911 Comment by Cheapshot911

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    Pointless to suggest DJ to..

    Take off the librul goggles,

    I sat around for a few to try to focus on the “Ruckus”, which was fairly obfuscated, then Majesty rephrased my spiel,,und es gibt nichts..

    Go figure.

  29. AyUaxe Comment by AyUaxe

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    This is such a RCOB moment, I am overwhelmed. If Shrub and his little coterie of hand-pricked for stupidity DOJ personnel want to screw somebody, they ought to make it somebody worth screwing–like ATF or the EEOC dirt bags that are F’n up hardworking citizens lives for nothing. Sheist, there’s still politicians in Louisiana that ain’t been indicted.

    There needs to be an executive order that every person attempting a border crossing other than at a proper checkpoint and without showing proper credentials is deemed an enemy invader and saboteur, subject to being shot on sight. Don’t worry about detaining and questioning and maybe having to try the bastards–ice ‘em down and be done with it, with full authority of the CIC of the Executive Branch. If it’s wrong, they can impeach Shrub–just hurry, please.

    BTW, to LC Mrs. M-ITT, last time anyone seriously tried to resist the imperial federal gummint, they put the likes of William Tecumseh Sherman, among others, on my great, great, great-g’daddy’s butt and about half a million American Citizens’ lives later that little tea party got put down. It’s not for lack of trying to escape the yankee world order, it’s the lack of adequate industrial infrastructure and insufficient ruthlessness on the part of the rebels. That’s probably still the case–think what civil people the regulars are on this and related blogs are, despite their strongly held beliefs. Would we burn out, rape and pillage an entire region, to prevent people from freely choosing to change their government? No, but the imperial feds sure as shinola will and do, with the full support of some mighty big bidnez interests, whenever it suits them. Ask the surviving Branch Davidians (who, btw, had committed no federal crime, which was established before the feds attacked–figure that one out–little jurisdictional elephant in that very small room). I do pray that this poor schmuck Border Patrol agent gets off and sues the bejeezus out of his employer for some kind of harassment, just to F with them.

  30. Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P. Comment by Sir Guido Cabrone, LC, M.o.P.

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    just like they did in 1965 and 1986

    Just outta curiousity, can anyone come up with a reason that this shit pops up on a 21 year cycle?

  31. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    How is that a Racist Comment??? That was just a statistical comparison to show a point.

    No, it made the assumption that BLACK people commit the most crimes because that was the yardstick used. Why else would blacks be used? Why not people from Oklahoma, or milkmen?

    The question also assumed that illegal aliens were a race, probably because in word association games most people would picture a brown, Spanish-speaking person if asked to describe what an illegal alien looked like. Of course, the assumption is that anyone who is brown and speaks Spanish in public HAS to be illegal. My friend, Juan, gets that thrown at him all the time by some of the people he’s encountered in lines at the supermarket. He will be talking to his wife in line, and every now and then he will hear some fat, overweight balding white guy mutter to HIS friend something about those “fucking illegal aliens”. Juan was born and raised right here in Washington. To American citizens. Do you see the problem yet?

    Deej, what I make a huge ruckus about is that he, as well as those I highlight, had numerous prior convictions that would have resulted in deportation had our EXISTING LAWS BEEN ENFORCED.

    Yes, probably so. The same can be said for numberous other crimes perpetrated by our own citizens, who are let out of jail early, or escape any meaningful sentence. (did you know that right here in Washington you can steal a car seven different times before you ever see the inside of a prison?)

    And what about sex offenders? MOST (not all, but a staggering HUGE majority of them) will reoffend. There is no fucking cure for these animals. Yet, we let them out of prison to rape again.

    Interestingly enough, a person who commits murder is the most likely person to be rehabilitated. Of all the crimes out there, a person who commits murder, usually does it in a heat of passion. It is a crime that will haunt them for the rest of their lives, and when they eventually get out of prison, they will probably NEVER re-offend again.

  32. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Count
    light sentencing? We had a road rage case where one man punched another who subsequently shot him (with a Nevada gun that hadn’t yet been registered in Cal). Since there was a self-defense issue, the guy was charged with manslaughter. 31 years in jail! total travesty. Now this is in liberal Cal.

    I don’t remember the figures, but the drunk driving sentences tend to be on the strong side. We have a lot of deaths where drunk drivers were driving the wrong way and killed someone.

    Interestingly, there was this case with this woman who killed her passenger driving drunk. They were going to give her probation, until they found recent postings on her MySpace page about how much she enjoyed drinking. Jail!

  33. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >ANyone else know what is going on around Tucson?

    I’m in the region, so I’ll answer. It seems like most of the problems are still south of Tucson. There are places around there, though, that my kids have gone to for Boy Scout camp outs, and people they have met (including Border Patrol and rangers) have told the Scout leaders that they shouldn’t be there unless they’re armed, because of the prevalence of coyotes (the human kind) and drug runners.

    I don’t think Tucson itself (in general) is that close to being a war zone, but the problems with crimes (violent or otherwise) committed by illegals does seem to be standing out a lot more. I don’t know about the people getting out thing; all I have seen in recent years is rapid, extensive growth.

  34. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >Just outta curiousity, can anyone come up with a reason that this shit pops up on a 21 year cycle?

    It’s the cosmic forces at play in the universe.

  35. ohio right wing nut Comment by ohio right wing nut

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    DJ
    Why is it that you assume everyone who hears the word illegal automatically sees a “brown person” in their head? It wouldn’t have anything to do with the MSM everytime this immigration debate is being debated by some useless talking head, that there is always a video clip in the background showing “brown people” jumping a fence or running across some highway?
    You are smart enough to know that they do that to put that into the heads of the casual viewer to equate Mexican with illegal so when your buddy Juan hears some fat balding white guy(on a side note I take offense to that , I’m bald, white and kinda fat)say something like that, then everybody thats for this ammnesty can say, see all these people that oppose this are racist. just like that blithering idiot Geraldo. I don’t (just like so far everybody on here) give two shits what color you are or what country you are from, if you break the law to get here , or overstay your welcome, then we don’t want you here .
    SO GO THE FUCK HOME!!!!

    And why is it the Libtards always see color and not just the crime?

  36. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    No, it made the assumption that BLACK people commit the most crimes because that was the yardstick used. Why else would blacks be used? Why not people from Oklahoma, or milkmen?

    The KEYWORD is ASSUMPTION….That ASSUMPTION is YOURS…meaning it is subjective. DJ, just because you think it is racist, does not mean it is. Then to move forward and ASSUME that the person stating said correlation is also a racist…which you DO ASSUME, is BULLSHIT! For the stats on Oklahomans and Milkmen, find a stat to compare then lets talk about comparisons…until then I am calling Bullshit. Besides, what pisses me off is not the stats but the insinuation of Racism…it is uncalled for.

    Also, you want some stats, here you go:
    INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants
    2006 (First Quarter)
    95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
    83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.
    86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.
    75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.
    24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
    40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
    48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
    29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually
    53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.
    50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.
    71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or “transport coyotes”.
    47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.
    63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens
    66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66% 98% are illegal aliens.

    Those are facts, not Racist ASSUMPTIONS.

    The question also assumed that illegal aliens were a race, probably because in word association games most people would picture a brown, Spanish-speaking person if asked to describe what an illegal alien looked like.

    What the fuck is this? There is that ASSUMED shit again!! Second, “word association games”, you have got to be kidding me. Typical Liberal, if your white, that automatically makes you a racist. Here is reality, it is human nature to stereotype, obviously you know that cause you do a damn good job of doing so. However, the problem is once again, is that I, nor do I believe the others on this board, do not discriminate on what race or ethnic group is here illegally. It is all wrong!

    Of course, the assumption is that anyone who is brown and speaks Spanish in public HAS to be illegal. My friend, Juan, gets that thrown at him all the time by some of the people he’s encountered in lines at the supermarket. He will be talking to his wife in line, and every now and then he will hear some fat, overweight balding white guy mutter to HIS friend something about those “fucking illegal aliens”. Juan was born and raised right here in Washington. To American citizens.

    Is this where I suppose to break down and cry for your friends plight? If he feels bad, then he should call people on it who supposedly say this shit. That is his problem, not mine. He needs to call Bullshit on that “fat, overweight bald white guy”, ( who did he run into Micheal Moore). Also, how did Juan Know the guy was talking about him and his wife? I talk illegal immigration around my Mexican friends all the time. They disagree with me, but do not find me Racist. Sounds like your friends have the typical liberal victim complex….you know JUST ASSUMING! Also, your friends know that there is no such thing as the Right to not be Offended in America. Get a Grip!

    Do you see the problem yet?

    Sure do, DJ! Liberal assholes who I ASSUME make a decent living, who I ASSUME is most often WHITE, who ASSUME to speak on behalf of “Little Brown People”( Your Term, not Mine) about their ASSUMED victimization, pulling out the RACE CARD ASSUMING on their behalf, ASSUMING to educate those RACIST other WHITES who “DON’T GET IT”. Truth is: You, Sir, are the Racist. Your principles of Modern Liberalism keeps blacks, Asians, Indians, and Hispanics down, by creating large bureaucracies and welfare systems that exploit these groups for political gain. You do not want to help them, you want to exploit them and continue to not let them prosper because of perpetual victim hood. Or do I ASSUUUUMMMMMEEEE too much!

  37. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    HEY PC

    ight sentencing? We had a road rage case where one man punched another who subsequently shot him (with a Nevada gun that hadn’t yet been registered in Cal). Since there was a self-defense issue, the guy was charged with manslaughter. 31 years in jail! total travesty. Now this is in liberal Cal.

    THAT IS A TRAVESTY! But you know what PC, it does not surprise me. You said it yourself “this is in liberal Cal.”. I think in Cali, you have those crazy “retreat” laws like here in Illinois. Both are states that frown on the 2nd Amendment and see legal gun owners as criminals already. It is the Liberal opposite of what I was talking about, but digresses to another good point instead.

    Yes, there are Judges who do their jobs, but they are few and far between. I should have also included Juries too…most “peers” of mine are misinformed and are clueless. Which is why I do not and will not break the law. The Justice System in this country today is quicksand and it is ridiculous.

  38. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Count
    I don’t know if that’s a fair assumption about hounding gun owners in Cal. I know a fair number of people that own gun(s). No one harasses them. It wouldn’t be tolerated, anyway.

    Having been on 3 juries, I must agree with you.

    I believe your figures, but am curious that you have them. Are you a lawyer?

    I don’t think the racist comment was meant to describe any one on this board. I hit the roof when someone thought I was anti-semitic. It seems like there is a lot of knowledge here about the mix of illegal aliens. However, I don’t think most Americans are as knowledgable, I think most people assume Mexican when there is talk of illegal aliens (and I think that’s what the comment was directed to). I would bet money that if I surveyed my middle-class neighbors, that is what they would say. Yes it is human nature to stereotype. And there is a brown skin issue with some people (not on this board!). 25 years ago it was Puerto Ricans who were the problem.

    One thing I like here is that our white neighborhood welcomes Hispanic and mixed-race neighbors, although they are wonderful neighbors.

    I thought the point of liberalism was to train people for jobs so they would be self-sufficient and not on welfare. But perhaps I’m atypical.

  39. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Why is it that you assume everyone who hears the word illegal automatically sees a “brown person” in their head?

    Because I read and hear this crap every day.

    Sure, around the Southern borders of this country, the majority of illegals tend to be from Latin America. But if you go to other areas of the country, you are liable to see illegals from other areas of the world. Russians, Asians, maybe even a few Danish thrown in. But the only thing people want to talk about is building a wall on our SOUTHERN border, because that is where the media focuses on.

    There are HUGE numbers of immigrants in this country who came here legally, and simply overstayed their visas. But nobody talks about them.

    DJ, just because you think it is racist, does not mean it is.

    Then why make the comparison? Why single out blacks? It is racist because it used one race as a comparison, and the assumption is using a stereotype that blacks tend to commit more crimes than other races because they are the majority population in prison.

    You can try to put as much lipstick on this pig, but it is still a pig at the end of the day.

    24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
    40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
    48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

    Actually, that number is low. Over 70 percent of the population in our federal institutions are illegal aliens. I would say that half of that are actually Hispanic, while the rest come from other countries. Why are they there? They are held there awaiting deportation hearings. Most of them are held there for the charge of “illegal entry”. None of them have a release date, and can be held indefinitely, until a hearing is scheduled — often up to three to five years.

    Now your other statistics deal with warrants, meaning that the perpetrator has yet to be apprehended. It doesn’t reflect the actual number of crimes (in this case, murder) that were committed. Why the high number of outstanding warrants? Probably because the perpetrator has left the country. Most murders are solved and the perpetrators caught almost immediately.

    Here is reality, it is human nature to stereotype

    Maybe in your circle of friends and acquaintances. Stereotyping is a learned behavior, not a natural one.

    I talk illegal immigration around my Mexican friends all the time. They disagree with me, but do not find me Racist.

    How do you know they don’t?

    It is interesting that even after all of this conversation, you are still equating illegal aliens with Mexicans. Yes, many illegals ARE. But there are many that are not. THIS is the fucking point I am trying to make here, but you just want to argue.

    I am against ALL illegal immigration here. I am not going to break it down to just Mexicans and other Hispanics.

    Part of my job entails calling people and talking to them for background on a topic. For example, I’ve talked to Immigration and Naturalization to see what the makeup of people in the detention centers. Roughly half of the people in detention are Hispanic, the other half come from Canada, Europe, Asia, and the former Soviet Union (in that order)

    Then there is this story you should read

  40. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    Hey Again PC

    When I was talking about Cali. I was mainly talking about the Federal Reps and Senators (Feinstein, Pelosi, Boxer, etc). I am unfamiliar with most state and local politics there. I did not mean to make you think I believed that Cali. is harassing gun owners just based on that fact that they own guns. However, looking at state statutes on Cali. gun laws, they are still not as bad as Illinois. I know they have a ton of restrictions, although, Cali. does not require its residents to apply to the state police for a F.O.I.D. ( Firearms Owner IDentification) Card. Illinois’ gun laws are equal to Cuba’s. No Joke. Especially if you live in Chicago and surrounding suburbs. Illinois is the only state that makes its residents register with the State Cops before you can own a gun and purchase ammunition. When it comes to harassment, Illinois is horrible (especially Cook County i.e. Chicago).

    I thought the point of liberalism was to train people for jobs so they would be self-sufficient and not on welfare. But perhaps I’m atypical.

    Well, in the classical sense of liberalism, you are on the mark. However, modern liberalism is Statist/Socialist in nature. Modern liberalism wants the government (the most inefficient entities in all of creation) to solve all the problems. Plus, it is big on the idea of Social Engineering, which is making laws to force a change in societal (although it mainly attacks/focuses on individuals) behavior (ie Hate Crimes, Income Redistribution, Banning things like guns, restricting speech, requiring big brother types of bureaucracy, high taxes, universal healthcare, multiculturalism and environmental regulations etc).

    Also, one does not need an “ISM” to prepare you or train you for a job. The classic liberals like our Founding Fathers were for self-responsibility and accountability. They were also rugged individualists and for self-sustainment. 230 years ago they were considered LIBERAL. They were also Autodidacts, for most of them did not have a college degree or were college educated. Strange what 200+ years can do.

  41. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    DJ

    Then why make the comparison? Why single out blacks? It is racist because it used one race as a comparison, and the assumption is using a stereotype that blacks tend to commit more crimes than other races because they are the majority population in prison.

    One can make any comparison that he/she so choses. Besides the quote was:

    Who has the higher crime rate illegal aliens or blacks in america?

    That is NOT racist, just a valid question. Blacks make up a large percentage of incarcerated individuals but at the same time, so do whites. However, it is the assumption you make, not the stats, that is the problem with your logic. By labeling someone a Racist is an Ad Hominem attack. That is Intellectually Dishonest. You are diverting from the argument. No one obviously said anything RACIST…it is just YOU, who believes so…and that certainly does not make it Racist. They way the question was set up in a way you could answer it without calling anyone RACIST. You could have just broke it down and proved the point without resorting to calling anyone a Racist.

    You can try to put as much lipstick on this pig, but it is still a pig at the end of the day.

    Yeah, just keep trying to argue your Non Sequitur.

    Maybe in your circle of friends and acquaintances. Stereotyping is a learned behavior, not a natural one.

    If you do not think that humans make qualitative distinctions and judgments about certain people, places, things or ideas, you are dead wrong. That is inherent in us all and for a good reason. Using those distinctions for the Wrong Reasons is what is learned and taught.

    How do you know they don’t?

    It is interesting that even after all of this conversation, you are still equating illegal aliens with Mexicans.

    My Mexican friends have known me all my life. They know that I am rational, logical, and fair. YOU, equated “little brown people”, with Mexicans. I gave an example of typical conversations with people who fit YOUR description. So, do not blame me, I am just countering your “friends at the supermarket bit”, ASSUMING that your the only one with a personal perspective on the issue. Race is never an issue with them. We live in an area where racism is very up front and not-so-subtle, I KNOW they can tell the difference between a racist remark/diatribe and legitimate criticism of domestic policy. And it was not me that brought up the Mexican thing as being synonymous with Illegals …it was you. Second, I am not equating any ONE specific group to illegals…if so, why did I bring up the Fort Dix conspirators…Who are not Mexican…or the Terrorists of 9-11 who were on expired visas …that you say no one talks about.

    Anyways, I am done debating for the night. There is plenty of time left to do this tomorrow.

  42. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    “Liberal” as it’s used now really does mean something very different from what it used to mean. These days, the only thing most liberals are liberal with is moral standards (more libertine than liberal, essentially) and other people’s money. As pointed out by TheCount, modern liberalism is really just one form of totalitarianism.

  43. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Count
    I do agree with some of your points, not to be totally argumentative.

    I believe that you are right about the founding fathers, but most jobs require some skills these days–particularly computer. Hopefully, they learn that in high school, so they require no further training. Although for black men, the statistics of being employed were stratospherically higher for those that went to college. My husband is very bright, but only had 1 year of college–he runs a large bookstore. You clearly can get ahead on your own, but he also had shit jobs for years, leaving us heavily in debt (until I inherited)–I was in graduate school for years. It’s great that the sciences pay you, but the wage is very low. He did have to be on welfare briefly when he was young and poor. He got off pretty quickly.

    Actually, California’s wait while doing the background check for a gun saved my life, but we don’t need to go into that. Your system in Illinois does sound draconian.

    Let’s talk about a hate crimes case. I understand the issue of discrimination, however there is this particular case. Prison-based, hardcore criminal Latino gang (Mexican Mafia) that was killing all the blacks in their neighborhoods in LA. Not gangbangers–just someone waiting for a bus, for instance. Charging with a hate crime made it a federal case and let them put the guys in an East Coast prison, where they couldn’t coordinate crimes with their prison buddies. Also, there is no parole, unlike here. Now really vicious criminals got the justice they deserved. Is that such a bad thing? (although it shouldn’t take hate crimes regulations for that to happen)

    Environmental regulations? People working in factories that make microwave popcorn are subjected to a really toxic compound in the air that OSHA currently will not regulate. Some people get so sick they need lung transplants! Is that evil to regulate?

    I work around chemicals all the time–including a lot of solvents. I don’t like using the acids because I shake so badly. (Don’t really want to spill hydrochloric acid on myself.) We do not feel over-regulated. You have to work with toxic things in a fume hood, but that’s no big deal. There are precise ways to dispose of the hazardous waste, but it’s also no big deal. Even when I spilled a radioactive compound on myself years ago, they were pleasant to deal with. (dissolved in DMSO–straight through the skin)

    I love the smell of solvents in the morning–smells like victory.

    How restricted is speech? It might be, and I just don’t see it. The airwaves are full of right-wing talk radio. I could be wrong, but it doesn’t seem like they are censored. I keep getting directed to conservative websites. I’ve been to the KKK website–even they don’t get shut down. There was even that creepy Taliban website. It seems to me like there are all sorts of viewpoints out there. I was accused for censhorship for this, but I asked YouTube to pull the AIPAC neo-Nazi videos, and they wouldn’t.

  44. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Fuzzhead
    I know you are just expressing an intellectual point, but no one has ever in my whole life called me totalitarian! Oh my god–freedom, democracy–life wouldn’t be worth living without them. Although some one said I was a moderate, so maybe I should stop taking these things personally. I might be a category of 1, if that makes sense.

  45. Trooper THX1138 Comment by Trooper THX1138

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    PC, after getting to know you a bit through your comments here on the Rott, I don’t know that you could be classed as a lib. Maybe somewhat left of center, but truly left? Nuh-uh. Best classification for your political philosophy would be closer to classical liberal, rather than today’s Soviet-worshipping, dictator-fellating fascist-in-training.

    I don’t know that I would call the Klan *spit* “right-wing”. They seem (to me, anyhow) closer to Nazis and the Soviet Socialists than they would like to admit to themselves. To implement their dystopian nightmare of racial and religious cleansing, they’d have to establish control of the economy by government fiat. I may be wrong, but that seems eerily like the aforemention leftist (and make no mistake, Hitler was a far-left moonbat) dictatorships.

    Does that mean I think the government should ban their speech? No, so long as they do not openly call for the violent overthrow of the government (aka commit sedition). Doesn’t mean I would kick their ass if they showed up in my neighborhood, though. And if they showed up at my house, I have a Glock 21C and four magazines, each filled with hollow-points, that would adjust their attitudes quite readily. (And once I sign with the Navy, I’m using some of my bonus to buy a Mossburg 500 and a Beretta Cx4 Carbine, in .45 ACP!)

    PS, for more info on Hitler’s Chiropteralunosis (moonbatism for the Latin-impaired, you poor souls), email me. My addy should be visible if you look up my profile.

  46. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Trooper
    Thanks for your comments. I always take these things way too personally–I should mellow out (you should know how hyper and jumpy I am!)

    i did not at all mean to imply the KKK were right-wing. I would never insult the people on the right like that. I meant that if they were not censored, pretty much no one else would be, because to me they are the most extreme group out there. (except for the Taliban site)

    Do you know the ACLU fought for the right of the Klan to march in a Jewish neighborhood in Illinois? (They lost an awful lot of Jewish members)

    I don’t think Hitler was left. There is a fascinating list of questions to categorize your political beliefs. If it weren’t 2:30 AM, I would find.it. Not only does it have left/right on one axis, it has authoritarian/libertarian on the other axis. Hitler was up at the top of authoritarianism pretty much in the center. I thought that was apt for his tendencies. And to think he consolidated his power for the first year legally.

    I may have to track you down. I am always interested in the study of evil. I have 5 books on profiling serial killers. I will take it as a challenge to hunt down Rottie profiles, but not tonight.

    Good night. I deleted a rant about bedbugs from another post, but they are spreading all over the country. (I’m a biologist–I’m into creatures)

  47. MegaTroopX Comment by MegaTroopX

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    Misha,

    It would’ve had the “Website feedback” subject, coming from sctparker@(redacted). It was about the Iraqi orphanage thing.

    Also RSS issues, but that seems to have been fixed.

  48. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    psychochick

    I apologize if it sounded like I was calling you a totalitarian. As has been mentioned, you don’t seem to fit the usual definition of a modern liberal (especially the liberal establishment). (If you did, you’d probably be getting ripped apart here, hahaha!) I was merely pointing out that the stances taken in general by liberals almost always come down to governmental control of, well, almost everything. Essentially, the idea that government is the answer, and can/should be taking care of people and determining what course they take in life. That’s the opposite of liberty, and thus, the opposite of what classical liberalism was. There is a striking similarity between the policies advanced by the Democrats and the policies advanced by the Communist parties of a variety of countries. Those policies always have and always will lead to less liberty.

    Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

  49. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >I don’t think Hitler was left

    You have to remember, though, that fascism and communism are ultimately the same thing: totalitarianism. In both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, the government controlled the means of production, etc., and “took care” of the people. (”Taking care of the people” in the case of collectivist ideology essentially means “making everybody’s life suck equally.”) There was no liberty under either system. The concept of fascism versus communism/socialism is really a false dichotomy. The “You’re a fascist!” epithet that is often thrown at conservatives by certain liberals, for example, is 1) completely inaccurate considering the actual nature of fascist systems and ideology, and 2) nothing more than bumper-sticker politics. Considering the policies of the Democrats promoting extensive and heavy-handed government intervention, it is actually more appropriate/accurate to apply the label to the modern American liberal establishment.

    We also need to remember that “right wing” and “left wing” aren’t concepts that are consistent between countries and eras. If we are talking about the modern American right wing, for example, fascism is hated and rejected along with all other forms of totalitarianism. On the other hand, much of the Japanese right wing promotes the re-establishment of the imperial system, under which there was little liberty, essentially a totalitarian system. “Conservative” and “liberal” are actually not very helpful or informative as labels/categories either unless they are defined for certain specific contexts.

  50. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >Now really vicious criminals got the justice they deserved. Is that such a bad thing?

    No, that’s a good thing, but it shouldn’t take so-called “hate crime” legislation to do that. If the bad guy intentionally killed somebody, he or she should get the full boot to the head. Should a fellow who kills me because he’s a greedy slimeball and wants my money be given more leniency than a fellow who kills me because he hates me because I’m a “cracka?” As I said, both should get the full boot to the head. Murder is murder is murder is murder is murder. Premeditated or not, done out of hate or done out of greed, with a gun or a baseball bat. We should be judged on what we actually do, not on our “thought crimes.”

  51. Princess Natasha Comment by Princess Natasha

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    Disclaimer: Psychochick, while you and DJ are our token liberals here ;) , you two fit the definition of a classical liberal to a large extent, more so than you fit the perversion of the term as it is used today. So, that said, here goes my 2 cents…

    Modern “liberals” (and see disclaimer above) are not really liberal at all. Nor are they “progressive” since many of them advocate abolition of technology, and the return to primitive existence akin to feudalism or even tribalism, i.e. a regression from the level Western Civilization has achieved. You can’t even call them “humanist” since some are advocating drastic lowering of the quality of human life, if not outright destruction of humanity, all in favor of some species of snail or weed.

    In fact, if one looks at the definition of a classical liberal, modern and classical liberals would be diametrically opposite.

    I will even go as far as saying that the old labels of “liberal” and “conservative” no longer apply. A more accurate way to define one’s personal and political attitudes (politics meaning relations between individuals in society on various scales) are individualism and collectivism.

    Relatively recently, a dear friend introduced me to the writings of Ayn Rand. I loved her fiction. I am now reading her non-fictional works and they are deserving of attention and serious thought.

    I am sure Psychochick is probably buried up to her ears in recommended readings, aside from her scientific work, but the book I am recommending is small. It is a collection of Rand’s essays and lectures called “The New Left: The Anti-Industrial Revolution”.

    With that, I am done wasting Misha’s bandwidth.

  52. Princess Natasha Comment by Princess Natasha

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    fascism and communism are ultimately the same thing: totalitarianism.

    A-men, Brother!! I’ve had a difficult (but ultimately rewarding) time pointing it out to various inquiring minds. To put it crudely, what these “isms” come down to is the same turd in a different wrapper. The apparent differences are just marketing. The product is still shite. And I, for one, am not buying! The fight between fascists and commies was not over ideology, but over who gets the spoils and the slaves.

  53. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >A more accurate way to define one’s personal and political attitudes (politics meaning relations between individuals in society on various scales) are individualism and collectivism

    I agree. Though those categories still aren’t perfect, and more refined definition is often needed, they’re much more helpful and instructional than “conservatism” and “liberalism” as those terms are used currently.

  54. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >To put it crudely, what these “isms” come down to is the same turd in a different wrapper.

    I often describe it as a choice between a punch in the head and a kick in the stomach. Yeah, there are certain minor differences in the delivery of the damage, but I end up on the ground in pain either way.

    I’ve actually been describing the ever-decreasing difference between the Republican Party and the Democratic Party that way as well…Not a good sign.

  55. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    One can make any comparison that he/she so choses.

    Sure they can, just as I can point out that in this particular case the question sounds racist because they used one particular race as a comparison to another group that isn’t a race at all.

    They could have used ANY race and it still would have been a racist question.

    Blacks make up a large percentage of incarcerated individuals but at the same time, so do whites.

    Yes they do. A better statistic is the one where one out of four black males between the age of 18 and 28 are currently or have been incarcerated. Mostly for drug crimes and more specifically, crack cocaine.

    But does this statistic indicate that blacks are more likely to use crack cocaine than white people? Well, if you look at just that statistic, you could make that assumption. But the reality is, whites are more likely to use crack cocaine, but because they tend to live in the higher economic range, they are less likely to go to prison than their black counterparts.

    However, it is the assumption you make, not the stats, that is the problem with your logic.

    The statistics support what I am saying, and it is an area where I have first hand knowledge also. It isn’t something I’ve read off a website or heard on Michael Savage.

    YOU, equated “little brown people”, with Mexicans.

    Yes, it is the message blathered by most right-wing radio hosts, and mouth-breathed by many anti-immigration conservatives. To be a little more clear, it is the natural assumption here and in other Right-wing corners that illegal aliens are all Hispanic. They are referred to as wetbacks and border jumpers right here on this site. They are also referenced as Spanish-speaking, which leaves little or no doubt that when the topic of illegal aliens is involved, the automatic thought here is about those from South of the border.

    It isn’t just here, and I am NOT singling out anyone here. This is all across the media. We automatically think illegal Mexicans when we talk about illegal aliens.

    The fact of the matter is, while Hispanics make up the largest single group of illegal aliens, they only account for roughly half of the illegals being held or deported in this country. This comes from the Department of Immigration and Naturalization, based on their hearings data.

  56. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    Hey PC

    not to be totally argumentative.

    PC, be Argumentative. It does a mind good. (maybe not the blood pressure, but oh well)

    but most jobs require some skills these days–particularly computer. Hopefully, they learn that in high school, so they require no further training. Although for black men, the statistics of being employed were stratospherically higher for those that went to college. My husband is very bright, but only had 1 year of college–he runs a large bookstore. You clearly can get ahead on your own, but he also had shit jobs for years, leaving us heavily in debt (until I inherited)–I was in graduate school for years. It’s great that the sciences pay you, but the wage is very low. He did have to be on welfare briefly when he was young and poor. He got off pretty quickly.

    It is good that your husband has been so successful. To get what you want out of life takes hard work and sacrifice, as you well know. Since you got a Masters or a Doctorate (I Assume, so correct me), you know now that one does NOT go to college to get rich and wealthy. One goes to college to learn a specific skill or just to enrich themselves (or to get fucking drunk and stoned and chant Che Guevera is my hero). All kidding aside, going into college, I knew I was not going to become rich or wealthy. I, too, like you and your husband and probably everyone on this board…had my run of the mill shit jobs. I have been on Food Stamps (Link Card in Illinois), but never got any money from the gub’ment (money as in spending money or money for rent etc,). It sucks to be in debt, inheritance is a good thing (something else the government needs to keep their damn hands off of), so you got a good boost and that is great. However, in Publick Scrools, they do not teach kids a damn thing. They do not teach them well in Economics (which I think should begin in first grade) and how to market themselves. What skills do they need to learn and what would put them on a path of contentment, NOT WEALTH, a more realistic view of how the world works and how to be competitive. I think it was Princess Natasha who is reading Ayn Rand. Rand has been one of my favorites for years, especially her Objectivist Philosophy. A great quote from Rand is, “Wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think”. That implies being flexible and adaptive to social and economic changes, making ones self more adapted to overcome various obstacles that come your way.

    Environmental regulations? People working in factories that make microwave popcorn are subjected to a really toxic compound in the air that OSHA currently will not regulate. Some people get so sick they need lung transplants! Is that evil to regulate?

    The Environmental Regulations I was referring to was the shit dealing with global wormening and the folks of the church of the Goreacle. They use global warming to force a behavioral change in people through force and coercion, mostly through government making new laws and regulations that erode personal life, liberty and property. Not the safety regulations your referring to, however, I do not believe the government is necessary in that regulation either, but that is a whole other topic.

    Also, I would like to know more about the dangerous gas from microwave popcorn. One reason it has not been dealt with in the workplace is because of BIG GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACY. Before it works down to OSHA it has to be studied by the EPA, CDC, FDA and other bureaucracies within the system (THAT IS WHY GOVERNMENT IS SO INEFFECTIVE). Those people have to conclude that it is a viable threat before OSHA is petitioned.

    How restricted is speech? It might be, and I just don’t see it. The airwaves are full of right-wing talk radio. I could be wrong, but it doesn’t seem like they are censored. I keep getting directed to conservative websites. I’ve been to the KKK website–even they don’t get shut down. There was even that creepy Taliban website. It seems to me like there are all sorts of viewpoints out there. I was accused for censhorship for this, but I asked YouTube to pull the AIPAC neo-Nazi videos, and they wouldn’t.

    Examples of speech trying to be infringed is Campus Speech Codes and the reintroduction of the Fairness Doctrine. The Fairness Doctrine was in place until 1987, from the beginning of the FCC (which is another government entity that needs to be gotten rid of too, it is a big violator of the 1st amendment). I believe even Marxists and so forth, should have an outlet for their beliefs because I know, people like myself and that are on this site, will combat their ideas with their own and it balances itself NATURALLY, without government involvement. AM Radio is dominated by “Right Wing ” ideology, not just because it is conservative but it is also entertaining. They know how to market themselves better and compete. The only way Liberals can compete is through force (the fairness doctrine) or through NPR which is forced on us by our taxdollars and government subsidization and grants. That is why they want the fairness doctrine, so they can destroy competition in a socialist fashion. If they cant win an argument or debate, they close the debate and force others to listen (ie global warming).

    Once again, it is an example of consequences of actions. Therefore, when Thurgood Marshall ruled that “Free Speech is NOT yelling FIRE!! in a crowded theater”, he meant speech is free but be aware there are consequences if that speech is used in malevolent ways. So, if the nazis want to banter on their bullshit …let them. Best policy there is to ignore them, to try and ban them adds fuel to their bullshit. Then they can decry themselves as victims, when only they are a bunch of shitbags.

  57. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    They could have used ANY race and it still would have been a racist question.

    It is still SUBJECTIVE! And you wonder why there is not any good discussions and debates on the issue of Race. There is always someone spouting racism at a person, especially if that person is a WASP.

    Yes they do. A better statistic is the one where one out of four black males between the age of 18 and 28 are currently or have been incarcerated. Mostly for drug crimes and more specifically, crack cocaine.

    But does this statistic indicate that blacks are more likely to use crack cocaine than white people? Well, if you look at just that statistic, you could make that assumption. But the reality is, whites are more likely to use crack cocaine, but because they tend to live in the higher economic range, they are less likely to go to prison than their black counterparts.

    DJ, this is possibly where we can find some common ground. Whites are just as likely to be incarcerated for these offenses as blacks because of what….DRUGS. White incarceration is going up because of Methamphetamines, not crack. However, also for marijuana, heroin, and prescription drugs. However, the whites who use these drugs and ARE imprisoned are most often in the same income bracket as the blacks that are in jail. They are selling, using and dealing for the same reasons they are. Drugs are not a RACE issue it is an economic and personal issue, why else would they sell it or use it. I believe the Drug War is a FARCE. I cant stand these people going to jail for a “victimless crime”. That is why the jails are full. I think the “war on drugs” needs to cease and desist, only when the welfare state has been eliminated. Most people will say, “I don’t want some druggie sponging off my tax dollars”. I agree. However, turn off the faucet, do not throw away the sponge. Anytime the government BANS something, it creates an underworld instantly, because of the tax free, lucrative profits that are made. Normal commerce is protected by police…underworld shit is protected through gangs, mafia , etc.

    It isn’t something I’ve read off a website or heard on Michael Savage.

    I have never listened to Savage, he is to pompous for me.

    This is all across the media. We automatically think illegal Mexicans when we talk about illegal aliens.

    Yes, and this is the same Media that calls Racism on others when they are just as Racist (ie, the Duke Lacrosse bullshit and mike nifong, where is the apologies from the MSM).

    The fact of the matter is, while Hispanics make up the largest single group of illegal aliens, they only account for roughly half of the illegals being held or deported in this country. This comes from the Department of Immigration and Naturalization, based on their hearings data.

    As I have said before, IT IS ALL WRONG! Which I believe, you said so too. However, my issue is the calling of Racism on people just for asking a question dealing with RACE. It does not automatically imply racism. But I think in the end, we will have to agree to disagree on that point.

  58. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Count
    Generally, I agree with almost everything you said. College was wonderful. I’m interested in so many different things. I kind of screwed myself, though. I would take way too many courses because they looked interesting, and then my grades weren’t the best. But it all worked out in the end–yes, 2 advanced degrees. I took some grief about pronouncing that before, so I try to keep it low key. It’s the quality of the arguments that matter anyway, not the pedigree. But it’s useful, for instance, if someone indignantly asks how I can make that generalization about science. (I’m not referring to the global warming discussion–that was something else.)

    Actually, I thought there was an explosion of outrage over the Nifong thing in the MSM, as there should have been. (I do papers–rarely tv)

    The popcorn thing. OSHA did come in at one point and refused to regulate it a few years ago. They aren’t really doing new regulations under this administration. I know everybody thinks the NYT is the epitomy of evil. I find it useful. I couldn’t get you the article I wanted to. They have something called a Times Select program where you have to pay to get certain Op-Eds and archived articles. It’s worth it for me, so I do, but it means I can’t link to the article I wanted to.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06butter.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=aa9db2456d8ad243&ex=1182571200

    Yeah, I think the Campus Speech Codes are kind of fascist. There should be a free exchange of ideas at campuses, of all places. I do think hate crimes issues should be enforced–if someone sprays a swastika on a Jewish kid’s door, I think they should pay a price. But to me, that is different than restriction of speech.

    It took a few posts, but almost common ground!

  59. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >if someone sprays a swastika on a Jewish kid’s door, I think they should pay a price. But to me, that is different than restriction of speech.

    Correct. It’s not a restriction of speech. It’s punishment for vandalism. The price that should be paid is the price for committing the crime of vandalism. It doesn’t matter if it’s a swastika or a unicorn skipping gaily over a rainbow. Don’t draw things on other people’s property. It’s vandalism. Punish criminal actions, not beliefs. Punishing for beliefs is right smack dab in the middle of Thought Police territory.

  60. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    do think hate crimes issues should be enforced–if someone sprays a swastika on a Jewish kid’s door, I think they should pay a price.

    Well, the Jewish kid could spray a star of david on the nazi’s door, but I digress. The context “Hate Crime” is too vague, it is a thought crime. Vandalism should be punished the same if a Muslim Spray Paints the crescent moon on a Christians door. The thing is Hate Speech is too vague and it picks and chooses certain groups and offers only them protection. Protection under law should be for everyone. Not Just Blacks, Jews, Hispanics, Asians, Women, Indians, Gays, and other “disparaged groups”.

    What I am saying is, who sets the definition of hate? What is it? I don’t hate anyone. But say I get into a fist fight with a black guy. Only thing he has to say is that I called him a Racial Slur in the midst of fighting…and the crime goes from misdemeanor to felony. Otherwise, it would just be another fist fight over some trivial bullshit or even self defense, who knows. Even if no Racial Slur was said…It would be my word versus his. With the Prosecutor’s Discretion he can chose if one of his friends backs up his claim, can file the charge of hate crime. Something similar happened to a good friend of mine.

    Certain groups are lobbying congress critters to make it a hate crime just for speech. For a crime there has to be certain criteria to denote a crime. Corpus Delecti or Body of the Crime is composed of two parts Mens Rea or Intent and Actus Reus the act itself. So there has to be an action and intent. For example, Ill use your Nazi Example; The Nazi has a dislike/hate for Jews…he sees his neighbor across the dorm hall is a Jew. He goes and vandalizes his door with spray paint as an attempt to Intimidate (which is also a crime)him and make him leave. Vandalizing public property, intimidation, if there is more than one NAZI involved you have Mob Action, one misdemeanor and two felonies that send him to the pen for 3-7 years if convicted, plus restitutions and fines. There is no law that prohibits thought no matter how vile. There are laws that are on the books to deal with the actions of individuals who motivation or intent was hate filled to commit a crime. It just helps the prosecutor to find intent. However, hate in itself is an abstract.If you start outlawing emotions and thoughts…that is the highest form of despotism.

    Actually, I thought there was an explosion of outrage over the Nifong thing in the MSM, as there should have been. (I do papers–rarely tv)

    Well, my bitch with the MSM, even the papers, is this; At first, they basically all but said that the men involved were guilty and then started a Racial issue out of it once they found out the accuser is Black. Then, when the truth finally came out and the accused were exclaimed INNOCENT, they never apologized for their actions in running the accused through the mud. They questioned Nifong on what he was handing out. They just took what he gave them and ran with it. Papers, Radio, Tv…you name it. It was nothing but sensationalism to get ratings, just like how chaos and disorder can help politicians get votes. Those that were accused were just fodder to the Press. The main point of hypocrisy is when they found out Nifong was using them they turn the tables and act as if they were on the side of Justice the whole time.

    Finally, I read the article. It was very interesting. I never liked microwave popcorn. I prefer the old Stir Crazy popcorn popper where you put REAL butter in the top to butter the corn. MmMMMMmmm. Plus it is cheaper over time to buy the big bag and pop it the old-fashioned way. However, Diacetyl seems to be pretty shitty. The best way is to write the companies and boycott microwave popcorn unless they improve safety at the plants. Become pro-active and get others informed and involved. Just Boycott…hitting the companies wallet is far more effective than government intervention.

    Also, the report doesnt mention if the company provided masks or any safety gear for workers that interact with the chemicals. So, I would actually like to know more concerning this issue before I condemn a company that might be innocent….like they issued masks and safety gear and the workers chose not to wear them for other reasons.

  61. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Count
    I agree with you that all vandalism should be prosecuted, but it does seem worse to me if it’s hateful. And that applies to crimes against whites, too. I’m half German, and if somebody sprayed “Nazi” on my door, I would be really upset. I flipped out just because someone said I was anti-semitic.

    I don’t know if the press needs to apologize for the Nifong thing. They presented the information they had at the time, and now they are presenting the information they have now. It would be different if they deliberately gave out faulty information. I’m so glad it came out that they were innocent. What a horrible ordeal.

    I am going to badger you. You are so knowledgable about legal stuff. Are you a lawyer or a judge? No one knows who you are, so it doesn’t seem like it could hurt to say.

  62. TheCount Comment by TheCount

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    I am no lawyer or Judge. I have had training in law enforcement and have like 34 credit hours in Administration of Justice. I am currently seeking a job in law enforcement. I have a bachelor’s degree in history with minors in psychology and political science. I wanted to be a high school history teacher. However, since I elected not to go through teaching pedagogy…I am not a teacher. So, I have been going through those run of the mill shitty jobs…that we talked about earlier. I am an avid reader and can be found at the local barnes and noble and libraries constantly. In college, I took all kinds of classes from chem, physics, calc, geology, meteorology, etc….anything I could get my hands on. I wanted to be a Renaissance Man. Right now, I work as a Certified Nurse Assistant. The jobs here are very scarce where I live so you adapt and do what you can for the time being. Yeah, that is about it. Hope this satisfies your inquiry.

  63. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Count
    “Hope this satisfies your inquiry.”

    I hope that wasn’t too nosy of me. It was more of an intellectual curiousity. (That’s what I always tell my advisor when he accuses me of being nosy)

    pretty hard core science background for a poly sci/psych major! My major academic screw-up was not taking physics. would really have helped to understand some things.

    sorry about the shitty job thing. hope you get into law enforcement. You do have a Justice background! It seemed like you were way more knowledgable than most.

  64. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >I would be really upset

    But the fact that someone gets upset about something doesn’t mean that it should be a crime. We have to divide the emotional issues from the rational issues, I think.

    When I see some numbskull kid on campus wearing a Che t-shirt, I might make the observation that he’s an idiot for glorifying a totalitarian terrorist thug (and a coward, on top of it all), but I don’t start whining for somebody to punish numbskull kid because he has offended me. On the other hand, if numbskull kid paints a picture of Che on my door, he gets the boot to the head. But as I said earlier, he gets the boot to the head regardless of what he paints on my door. He doesn’t infringe on my rights by being a moron. He infringes on my rights by doing something to my property without my authorization.

    The “hate crime” concept is based on emotional response to a certain stimulus, not on the actual infringement of the actual rights of an individual. My defacement of your property infringes on your right to your property. My feelings toward you do not infringe on any of your rights. (I’m talking about real rights: life, liberty, and property.)

    Naturally there are things that I would be more upset about having painted on my door than others (for example, a picture of Homer Simpson in a monkey suit wouldn’t bother me as much as a picture of Homer Simpson naked), but that’s not the point. The infringement of my rights comes in the painting on my property, not the intent or feeling behind the painting.

  65. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    fuzzhead
    One of these days, I’m going to come to Tucson and spray paint a naked Homer Simpson on your office door. he he he

    But I thought there was a general agreement that vandalism should be prosecuted. You might note that I did not say the penalties for hate crime vandalism should be stronger than for any other types of vandalism. But it is my OPINION that it’s worse: it’s an attack and a threat. To me, a swastika on a door would be a threat of violence–not just that I don’t like it. I think non-racial things could be an attack, too: “You had an abortion.” “You beat your wife.” “I want to molest your kids.” I think the latter would clearly be the worst threat. That is my opinion–I didn’t say it should be policy. Unfortunately, I don’t rule the world (oops–totalitarian liberal warning). Actually, the stress of it would get to me–I would rather hide in my office.

    If you called me a Nazi, that would be your free speech. I would probably go and cry, but I wouldn’t file charges against you.

    And this intent thing is taken into account all the time when prosecuting crimes: did you accidentally hit the person or purposely drive over them? Did you accidentally shoot or did you purposely shoot him in the head to kill him? The charge (is that the right word) of the crime is often delineated by intent.

    I don’t want to get into a huge hate crime argument, but
    1) the crimes are generally more severe (although maybe sentencing would take that into account)–BlackinWhite gave a verdict on that.

    2) in certain areas with a lot of Klan membership (say in the police force and judiciary), the murder of a black man would not be taken very seriously. (I think that happens a lot less these days.) A hate crime statute lets the feds swoop in and prosecute the murderer.

    It’s not just an emotional thing. Maybe we don’t need it anymore, but we clearly needed it in the past.

  66. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >“You had an abortion.” “You beat your wife.” “I want to molest your kids.”

    Those would be libel or an actual threat, and could be prosecuted as such. They wouldn’t require the privileging of certain groups through thought crime legislation.

    Remember that the perpetrator’s emotions and the perpetrator’s intentions are not the same thing. Maybe hate drove the person to intend harm, and maybe it didn’t. An accidental shooting (which almost never happens, so it’s probably not a good example) or an accidental thumping of a pedestrian with a car has some leeway for determination of intention. It’s possible that it was an accident. Even with an accidental occurrence, however, the person making that mistake should be held accountable for the results, regardless of his lack of intention to harm somebody. If I break it, I’m responsible for fixing it, regardless of why I did it.

    The types of crime that are the target of “hate crime” legislation essentially have no leeway for assuming that they were accidental. The intent to commit the crime is clear. It’s foolish to try to be a mind reader in the first place, and ultimately, as I said, the emotions of the perpetrator do not, in any way whatsoever, infringe upon my rights. Infringement of rights is the ONLY thing that should ever be punished by law.

    I do agree with you that the actual crime plus hatred is worse than just the actual crime alone. I would make a general judgment that bigots who paint swastikas on people’s doors are evil, disgusting people. But in a free country, government must not attempt to punish people for their beliefs and feelings. Only God has the omniscience and eternal perspective to do that.

    “Hate crime” legislation is not needed to let the feds get involved when there is corruption in local law enforcement. If the laws that are already on the books were enforced, that–and every other crime–would be taken care of as much or more than with some hokey, politically motivated, smoke-and-mirrors “hate crime” law. “Hate crime” laws just give more encouragement to career victims and their keepers. No law of that type has ever done anything (anything good, that is) that merely enforcing existing laws could not have done as well or better.

  67. Fuzzhead Comment by Fuzzhead

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    >I’m going to come to Tucson and spray paint a naked Homer Simpson on your office door.

    Tomorrow I’m going to switch name plates on the doors. There’s a young female Japanese professor who seems like she needs jolt. :)

  68. Tom Doniphon Comment by Tom Doniphon

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    Well, my bitch with the MSM, even the papers, is this; At first, they basically all but said that the men involved were guilty and then started a Racial issue out of it once they found out the accuser is Black. Then, when the truth finally came out and the accused were exclaimed INNOCENT, they never apologized for their actions in running the accused through the mud. They questioned Nifong on what he was handing out. They just took what he gave them and ran with it. Papers, Radio, Tv…you name it. It was nothing but sensationalism to get ratings, just like how chaos and disorder can help politicians get votes. Those that were accused were just fodder to the Press. The main point of hypocrisy is when they found out Nifong was using them they turn the tables and act as if they were on the side of Justice the whole time.

    One of the funnier segments Jon Stewart’s Daily Show ran off was a montage of Nancy Grace’s “coverage” of the incident - basically a compilation of the times she’d gotten on camera and pronounced them guilty based on absolutely zero factual evidence (the segment was aired within a few days of the charges being dropped). And although she’s just one of their staff, she certainly wasn’t alone in broadcasting that message.

    I wish I had a youtube link to it; it was a brilliant sucker punch landing right on her chin. (and of course was completely ignored by anyone in MSM)

  69. AyUaxe Comment by AyUaxe

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    This thread has certainly taken off.

    Count, try private schools for teaching jobs. They usually have more practical requirements, rather than teachers union education degree requirements. You can come to NOLA and get any kind of job you can handle. This is a gold rush town for people who want to work (sadly in criminal as well as legal enterprises).

    South of the Border illegals are wearing thin here. We were guardedly glad to have their help in rebuilding and many have been great additions to our construction craft community, but the non-working elements have begun to come in, too. Still, the illegals are vics, more than perps of crime in NOLA. Everyone knows they get paid in cash on Friday and they don’t want legal trouble–very little assembly required. Gummint can’t afford to protect them or pursue them, so how’re they gonna handle all the red tape and monitoring required under the Open Sphincters Bill–simple, they can’t and won’t.