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Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler » So Do We Even HAVE Treason Laws Anymore?
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LC frollickingmole sends us this, and we have to wonder just why on Earth it hasn’t received more attention than it has. No, not from the MSMidiots, we all know why they’re not interested, but everybody else. Because if this is even remotely true, then something needs to be done, and it needs to be done yesterday!.

A New York Times best-selling author says members of the supposed “peace movement” delivered hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash and supplies to terrorists engaged in a bloody street battle against United States Marines in Iraq.

The latest book by Lt. Col. Robert “Buzz” Patterson (U.S. Air Force-Ret.) is called War Crimes: The Left’s Campaign to Destroy Our Military and Lose the War on Terror. In the book, he claims that two anti-war groups — “United for Peace & Justice” and “CODEPINK: Women for Peace” — literally gave aid and comfort to terrorists when they delivered $600,000 in cash and supplies they claim was humanitarian aid to civilians.

According to Patterson, Congressman Henry Waxman (D-California) facilitated the transaction for CODEPINK by signing a letter allowing them to get the cash and supplies into Fallujah.

Chew on that for a while, will you?

Now, I know full well that this is all that I have on the subject, but LTC Patterson (USAF Ret.) isn’t exactly what you’d call “just another angry Evil Right Wing Death Beast with an axe to grind” and, at any rate, I don’t much think that he’d be putting his ass on the line like this unless he had something to back it up with. To say that the consequences for him would be serious if it’s all made up would be the understatement of the year, given the seriousness of the charges.

Assuming for the moment, since that’s all one can responsibly do until some evidence is produced, that he’s got the goods and that his “i”s are dotted and his “t”s crossed, CODEPINK, in association with a U.S. Congressman, conspired to and succeeded in funding the terrorist scum that we’re at war with, the swine killing our servicemen and -women, and we all know that those cavedwelling apes don’t use their funds to buy apple pies and band aids with.

Do you have a relative or loved one over in the sand box right now? In that case, he or she may, at this very moment, be fired upon with weapons bought and paid for by CODEPINK, in association with Henry Waxman (D-al Qaeda).

At the very least this merits a full and thorough investigation and, if the individuals in question are found guilty, a series of hangings.

Because if that is not treason, then absolutely nothing IS.

153 Responses to “So Do We Even HAVE Treason Laws Anymore?”
  1. LC & IB GuyS Comment by LC & IB GuyS

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    Many of us have been shouting long and loud about acts commited by members of the house and senate as at best being considered questionable … and at worst bona fide acts of treason.

    And as you say, assuming “i”’s are dotted and “t”’s crossed, this may bring what I consider the tip of the ice berg into the public eye.

  2. LC & IB GuyS Comment by LC & IB GuyS

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    oh and FIRST!

  3. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

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    Bullets in their brain(less)pans. They need to be turned into CodePinkMist™. NOW.

    F.E.T.E.

  4. Radical Redneck Comment by Radical Redneck

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    Waxman might be the most odious of an already extremely foul bunch. This story might have legs - let’s jettison this heaping hemmorhoid helping™ once and for all!

  5. Unregistered Comment by wrbones

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    Who they’re associated with:
    http://www.durhamrepublicans.org/bonesteel.html
    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/
    http://counterterrorismblog.org/#021726
    http://counterterrorismblog.org/2007/06/hlf_trial_update_muslim_brothe_1.php

  6. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    The really sad part…I am not the least bit surprised. The only thing that ticks me off is that you KNOW Bushito has to know about this and is STILL kissing the Dembastards skanky asses. There have been thousands of acts of Treason since…well hell…since Bubba pulled his double wide into the White House gates, and not a damn one has had to serve time, or even be mildly inconvenienced as a result.

    That reset button is starting to blink…anyone gonna push it?

    BTW…If you want to get a glimpse of what it was like in the Clintoon White House….read Buzz’s book “Dereliction of Duty“. It will make you want to move Heaven and Earth to make sure Hitlary and SinkMeister never set foot in that place again. And it will put to rest the utter (in her case udder) bullshit that she supports the Troops.

  7. LC Old Dog Comment by LC Old Dog

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    There are reasons that Waxman and his ilk have never meet me face to face. My ability to restrain myself foremost of those.

    Treason is Treason even if not charged in a Court of Law!

  8. LC Old Dog Comment by LC Old Dog

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    God created all Men. Col. Colt made them equal! Then the Series 70 Mark IV seperated some! :)

  9. english911 Comment by english911

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    I am at a loss for words.

  10. LC smaug6 Comment by LC smaug6

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    What a beautiful thing it would be to see justice served on our enemies both foreign and domestic! I wonder when those in power will stand up for this country?

  11. ScottG Comment by ScottG

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    No, there is no such thing as treason. Unless you’re President Bush or VP Cheney or a Christian, then you’re guilty of all crimes….

  12. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    One more in a series of outrages. There is much preaching to itching ears going on in today’s world. I can’t fret much about it. It wouldn’t do any good, and while it will get much worse before it gets better (Is anyone else as disturbed by the visa ads where everything grinds to a halt when someone pays with cash as the Mrs. and I are?), I read the book, and I know how it ends. Fear Not.

  13. LittleRott84 Comment by LittleRott84

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    Un. Befucking. Lievable.

    I can’t believe this Congress is stabbing me (and others like me) in the back like this.

    My ass is on the line for them (well, I’m not mobilized yet, but it might happen one of these days), and they go and help the scumbags that we’re supposed to be FIGHTING?!

    Mr President, get your ass in gear, and get Albert Gonzalez to charge these asswipes charged with treason, ASAP!

  14. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    Col. Colt made them equal!

    And for all the advances he gave us, died having never fired at another person..

  15. WayneB Comment by WayneB

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    (Is anyone else as disturbed by the visa ads where everything grinds to a halt when someone pays with cash as the Mrs. and I are?)

    Good grief, yes! Those commercials make me want to commit mayhem upon both VISA and the Ad agency who thought it up. But first I would have to puke. :D

  16. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    (Is anyone else as disturbed by the visa ads where everything grinds to a halt when someone pays with cash as the Mrs. and I are?)

    Funny you should mention that one because yes, I am.

    “What? You’re paying with CASH? You, you NEANDERTHAL! Now look what you’ve done!”

    I’d like to personally line up everybody associated with the production of that ad and systematically kick them in the groin, one at a time. Then I’d go back to the beginning of the line and start over. Until my leg wore out.

  17. WayneB Comment by WayneB

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    Oh, and I still want to know if you can execute a citizen’s arrest for Treason?

    Probably you can, but then you’d get sued, I suppose…

  18. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    (pulls out butcher’s wrap, pencils and a ruler, starts sketching ideas for hi-capacity military assault-style fully automatic traitor processing gallows and fertilizer spreader)
    Hmm, gonna be crank or pedal operated,,maybe a hitch to tow it with,,,

    ‘Gotta be a patent in here somewhere,

  19. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    What I do know is that, and this is part of my long term agenda, when I finally move to the country that is the best embodiment of everything I love and admire on Earth, I have one more reason, because then, as a US citizen, I will have the full justification to string this lot up. With pink rope.

    You’ll have to draw a number and wait in line with the rest of us, Fanusi, but if you bring the chips, I’ll bring the beer so we can at least have some fun while we wait our turn :)

  20. LC NCLivingBrit Comment by LC NCLivingBrit

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    Gods Teeth, how much of this are we supposed to sit still for?

    How long are we supposed to let this Fifth Column of elected traitors and their peons gnaw away at both the authority of our government (and it has authority, even if they don’t like the man at the top) and the lives of our service personnel.

    The Dem Kong (such a fitting name) are trying to ruin our armed forces will to fight, with lies, defamation and outright fabrication…. All the while doing their damnedest to trick the American people into abandoning their defenders, to making defeat through fatigue an inevitability and to hammer home the lie that this war cannot be won.

    And now this, putting the guns and materials to kill our men and women at the front -directly- into the hands of our enemies. There is something truly terrifying to me about an enemy so insane with hatred of -one man- that they would not only sell their own futures cheaply, but that of their children, friends and families.

    I’m sickened, troubled and more motivated to prepare for the worst than ever before. Bad Things are coming, our lack of resolve and their lack of sanity and a moral compass guarantees it.

  21. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    (Is anyone else as disturbed by the visa ads where everything grinds to a halt when someone pays with cash as the Mrs. and I are?)

    HELL YEAH, what a screwed up peer pressure play,,,especially when the new credit cards actually broadcast their info,,
    “Why get robbed for a few bucks when they can just take your card ‘n have the whole freakin’ farm?!?”

  22. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    Good. I thought it was just me. I left commercial banking when the parent company started to get waaaaaayyyy too excited about imposing the use of smart cards upon employees for my comfort level.

  23. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

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    Of course I also note that United for Peace and Justice is a large coalition of the usual suspects, most notably the American Communist Party. Their website conveniently provides an Excel spread sheet with an entire list of every nut-job, socialist, far-left whackjob mob on the planet. Follow the money and you’ll find who’s wagging the dog’s tail and his fleas.

    Surprised? I didn’t think so. We’re gonna need more rope, a lot more.

    Yeah, that VISA ad makes spinal-fluid shoot out of my ears everytime I see it. Bastiches.

  24. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    (Is anyone else as disturbed by the visa ads where everything grinds to a halt when someone pays with cash as the Mrs. and I are?)

    Whenever I use cash to buy something as joke I usually ask the cashier if they accept paper currency.

  25. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    Back on topic:

    Of course these asshats believed all that money would go directly to the people needing it. After all look at how all billions of dollars in aid given to arrafat and the plo for the paloswinians improved their lot in life.

  26. Unregistered Comment by crazylegs

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    Why didn’t the asshats just save thier time, and send Fallujah a plane full of Kalishnakovs? Oh thats right, the hajis can get the special warzone discount price.

  27. LC & IB GuyS Comment by LC & IB GuyS

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    Not to sound like a broken record … but unless and until we collectively stand up and say enough is enough. That ya’ll need to adhere to your oath to uphold the Constitution (you remember that pesky bit of parchment which keeps on screwing up most of the liberal fun and games) and pursue/prosecute those who refuse to abide by same *especially the traitorous types*. You are by definition an accessory to said crimes. And to think I gave better then 20 years to defending this country/constitution only to have these asshats rape it!!

    *goes off and lets his blood pressure get back in the safe zone*

  28. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    So Do We Even HAVE Treason Laws Anymore?

    Trick question, right, Boss?

    We have Treasson Laws so that the Democrats in Congress will have something to flout. They can’t very well ignore something that doesnt exist can they?

  29. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    One more jab at this…

    (Is anyone else as disturbed by the visa ads where everything grinds to a halt when someone pays with cash as the Mrs. and I are?)

    Those ads are pure bullshit. Using a credit card still requires the purchaser to sign the receipt.

    As for Waxman, I’m not surprised. Hell, he could smuggle howitzer rounds in his nostrils.

  30. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    As for Waxman, I’m not surprised. Hell, he could smuggle howitzer rounds in his nostrils.

    Having suffered through this asshats terms in the Kalifornia legislature, as well as his terms in the House…I wish someone would shove the barrel of a howitzer up his nose….and yank the lanyard.

  31. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Do you fill up your gas tank? Then you are sending money and material support to terrorists.

    Get a grip.

    Neither you filling up your tank nor Code Pink sending humanitarian money to Iraqi civilians is intended to fund terrorism. It just does.

    How many Billions of Saudi dollars derived from your gas purchases end up in the hands of Islamic Terrorists? Quite a bit, considering that the Saudis are the number one financier of most of these Islamic Fundamentalist groups.

    I don’t notice any of you amped up to go after the Saudis.

    No, instead you make noise about people who want to see an end to this madness, and pound your chest of war to go after Iran — a natural enemy of Al Qaeda.

    Don’t let the facts get you in trouble here:

    Saudi Arabia — Sunni
    Al Qaeda — Sunni
    Iraq — Shia
    Iran — Shia

    You all think there is a military solution to this mess. It is a political problem that needs to be solved politically.

  32. ACLPoo Comment by ACLPoo

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    I find it interesting to see women’s groups sending money to islamists, who forbid women to make money in the first place.

  33. WayneB Comment by WayneB

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    Those ads are pure bullshit. Using a credit card still requires the purchaser to sign the receipt.

    Not always. In many places, purchases under a certain amount don’t require a signature anymore. Also, paying for gas using your credit card at the pump.

  34. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    SoCalOilMan, LC

    Whenever I use cash to buy something as joke I usually ask the cashier if they accept paper currency.

    ‘Next time you’re in a curry-burner or a tienda, have your camera ready and ask ‘em if they still take Hawaiian currency!

  35. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    From Wikipedia, but I don’t think they’re going to fudge this:

    Waxman’s district includes the complete cities of Santa Monica, Beverly Hills, Agoura Hills, Calabasas, Hidden Hills, Malibu, West Hollywood and Woodland Hills, as well as such areas of Los Angeles as West Los Angeles, Beverly-Fairfax, Pacific Palisades, Brentwood, Beverlywood, Topanga, Agoura, Chatsworth, Westside Village and Westwood.

    He’s all for the little guy, but except for some small enclaves scattered around the rest of L.A. County, this is the largest conglomeration of way rich districts around. As long as they’ve got their gated communities and private security services so as not to have to deal with the rest of us, they think it’s a good thing for the gov’t to spend money to keep the peons quiet. besides their children’s inheritance is protected from “over-taxation” thanks to their foresight to open that Trust and move that excess money off-shore.

  36. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    Dave,

    ‘Can’t tell the amperage ’till ya grab the wire.

    I don’t notice any of you amped up to go after the Saudis.

    That’s coz we’re arranging some whoopin’s for some higher priority targets.

  37. Trooper THX1138 Comment by Trooper THX1138

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    DJ, you must have forgotten (or not read) “On War” by Karl von Clausewitz. The most quoted phrase in the whole damn work is: “War is politics by other means.” War serves political ends, whether two cavemen duking it out for tribal supremacy or invading Iran and taking Ahmadinejad out of power or ending the Saudis financing of Wahabbists.

    There’s three suits in the card game of politics: Hearts (friendship or love), diamonds (money), and clubs (force). Guess which one is the trump suit? Diplomacy can only work when there’s certain knowledge of serious consequences for its violation.

  38. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    …Code Pink sending humanitarian money to Iraqi civilians…

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *SNORT!* *GIGGLE!* *PUKE!*

    Sorry, man, that was just too funny.

    Yeah, I’m sure they’ll repeat that line over and over again… All the way to the gallows. G-d willing, I’ll be lucky enough to be the one pulling the lever and shutting them up once and for all.

    I don’t notice any of you amped up to go after the Saudis.

    Well, except for me, of course. And just about 99% of everybody else here. I’d love nothing more than to shove a 1911 up the arse of every member of the al-Saud family, then pull the trigger until the slide locks open.

    However, I’ll begrudgingly allow that it’s in our best interest to keep the sand fleas in Shoddy Retardia quiet while we deal with their friends. Hey, what do I care that they think that they’re our “eternal friends?” As long as it keeps their mouthes shut until they’re no longer useful to us and we can wipe their mugs off the face of the planet, I’m perfectly fine with it. I don’t care about them, and if we can use them for our own purposes before we cap their arses, so much the better. At least they’ll have been of some use to humanity before they’re killed off.

    Either way, I don’t care. If it keeps our backs quiet while we deal with Ahmadinnerjacket and his nuclear aspirations, so much the better.

  39. Unregistered Comment by leoni2

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    Trooper THX1138,

    There’s three suits in the card game of politics: Hearts (friendship or love), diamonds (money), and clubs (force).

    Ah, so that’s what they mean. Thanks for the information, trooper.

    Guess which one is the trump suit?

    Having never played any card games, I’ll take a stab at it. Clubs, perhaps?

  40. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    leoni2

    I’ll take a stab at it. Clubs, perhaps?

    Buzz…wrong, you get one more guess.

  41. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    O.K. I read it wrong. We were limited to three suits..leoni2 got it right…I was thinking in four suits and jumped to the conclusion of Spades (suit of swords)…My bad.

  42. Unregistered Comment by leoni2

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    SoCalOilMan,

    O.K. I read it wrong. We were limited to three suits..leoni2 got it right…I was thinking in four suits and jumped to the conclusion of Spades (suit of swords)…My bad.

    I accept your apology, although I’d only just now saw both your original response and this one. So, the spades are swords? Well, if it was all four suits I would’ve said spades.

  43. maxxdog Comment by maxxdog

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    I’m betting nothing comes of it. No investigations, no trials, no gallows. Prolly not much press coverage either.
    They’re liberals, ya know! Elites! Driving in the special lane reserved for the more enlightened and deserved!

  44. Unregistered Comment by TheSnarkmistress

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    re: citizen’s arrest for treason
    I know that in LA, a private citizen can carry out an arrest warrant if the crime charged is a felony. I’m pretty sure that for citizen’s arrests, there either needs to be the outstanding warrant waiting to be served, or the crime must be committed in the presence of the citizen. Otherwise, the citizen would be guilty of false imprisonment or possibly even simple kidnapping. And if said citizen were armed with a dangerous weapon, it might rise to the level of aggravated kidnapping. Mind you, this is hypothetical supposition based on LA statutory criminal law as understood by a law student who’s taking the bar in 3 days, and should in no way be construed as legal advice!

  45. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    DJ
    sez:

    No, instead you make noise about people who want to see an end to this madness, and pound your chest of war to go after Iran — a natural enemy of Al Qaeda.

    DJ, CodePink members would have nothing left to do except go back to writing books about two mommies if this war ended. They don’t want the war to end, at least not with a Free World victory….it would make the “boy king” look good.

    I don’t notice any of you amped up to go after the Saudis.

    Wrong my friend, a LOT of us have advocated hitting the Saudis…..but the BIGGER question is this: Would you be out hollering about US imperialism and “occupying a sovereign nation that didn’t attack us” if we DID take it to the Saudis? I’ll be you and the code pinkos would be doing just that.

    Want a solution to Saudi oil and the indirect funding of terrorists? Let us drill exploratory wells and build refining plants. Until a viable alternative fuel is made readily available (and we’re getting there), we MUST produce our own. It would starve out the middle eastern bastards who use their oil revenue to fund the jihadis, and the jihadis would turn to killing each other….and once that is done, I no longer have to suffer those butt ugly code porkos waving their stupid signs in front of Bellevue Square mall anymore.

    How committed to victory are you Dave? can we implement any of the above?

    No, instead you make noise about people who want to see an end to this madness, and pound your chest of war to go after Iran — a natural enemy of Al Qaeda.

    Oh please, how many AQ attacks do you see in Iran? they are allies for gods sake…the old enemy of my enemy schtick ya’ know. They are offered sanctuary in Iran, the Iranian Guard are training some of them. They are allowed to cross into Iraq from Iran…..

    If you think this will all be over when we get rid of osama been rotting and AQ, then you are dangerously naive. Al Qaeda is only one group, there are many more…tied into each other through the same death cult ideaology…allies in the jihad. Figure it out man, it won’t end with us arresting osama.

  46. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    TheSnarkmistress

    I hate this. but by LA I’m assuming you’re talking Louisiana and not L.A. (that’s the reason I always am diligent about putting in the periods.). Just checking (and pointing out that La is a better abbreviation for the state).

    It’s me, I know, but because I live here (G-d save my soul), but I always wonder and have to think about who posted.

    By the way, welcome back, I haven’t seen you round these parts lately. I hope your finals went well, which is the last time I remember you posting.

  47. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    Even though I work in the evil oil industry and would love a huge raise. If we (the U.S.)were allowed to start drilling where we know oil exists, the price would drop significantly tomorrow, just in anticipation of it hitting the market.

    The last predicted disaster didn’t happen with the Alaska Pipeline, caribou actually like the warmth and congregate near it, no leaks that weren’t addressed. It can be done.

    The power of these foreign nation would be significantly reduced and their ability to fund radical mosques would be reduced.

    You may say “but how long can we hold out?”…Maybe long enough to develop the alternatives we should be focusing on. I know they say there is only so many years of oil there, but that is if you figure that is the ONLY source of oil we use. Using it to depress the price is better for the country over the next decade or so.

  48. Unregistered Comment by mindy1

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    If this is true it certainly warrents investigation-I hope someone is looking into this. I just hope we are all istaken, because while I disagree with the politics of the war,I admire our military members and would feel awfully angry if our own citizens were giving support to those tryng to kill them.

  49. Unregistered Comment by mindy1

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    I mean all mistaken.

  50. LC 0311 crunchie Comment by LC 0311 crunchie

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    The Left keeps pulling the same old play book out. They did the same thing in Viet Nam. Man, they are really trying to relive their glory days aren’t they.

  51. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Dave:

    I don’t notice any of you amped up to go after the Saudis.

    Well, me personally, I’m all behind making the entire ME a sea of green glass.

    Does the order really matter, as long as we get around to all of them? If not, then quitcherbitchin’ about something you don’t care about.

    Or vote, next time you get a chance, and THEN bitch about it.

    No, instead you make noise about people who want to see an end to this madness, and pound your chest of war to go after Iran — a natural enemy of Al Qaeda.

    No, actually, thanks to the next-to-last Democratic President, Iran is the final source of muck of the Islamic Terrism today. The gift that just keeps on givin’!

  52. LC HJ Caveman82952 Comment by LC HJ Caveman82952

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    Nothing new…the demorats did it for the Viet Cong too.

  53. L.C. Rowane Comment by L.C. Rowane

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    Yeah, Caveman, they’re all getting ready to do it again. Just look at the shit going on in DC lately, makes me sick.

    I wish to hell that we could start prosecuting the treasonous bastards everywhere.

  54. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    Man, they are really trying to relive their glory days aren’t they.

    That’s one of the main motivators for the left. Feed their ego and everything else be damned.

  55. ohio right wing nut Comment by ohio right wing nut

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    GUNSNIPER, TRUE DAT

  56. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    That’s coz we’re arranging some whoopin’s for some higher priority targets.

    You can’t get too much higher than Saudi Arabia.

    Iran is a red herring, as was Iraq. Both had nothing to do with Al Qaeda, the asswipes who attacked us. “Al Qaeda of Iraq” is NOT the same group of fucknozzles who attacked us — they are made up primarily of Iraqis who are trying to rid their country of our presence. They did not exist prior to our invasion and occupation.

    As I am trying to get it into your heads, we need to go after the people who attacked us, not be diverted by BushCo, whose only intent is to secure oil for his financial masters.

    You are buying into the meme that our enemy is Iran because THEY are attacking us. The reality is, that the majority of people causing problems in Iraq Saudis

    Well, me personally, I’m all behind making the entire ME a sea of green glass.

    Oh boy, now THAT’s a solution.

    I WOULD vote if I thought that there was much of a difference between the candidates.

    If anyone thinks that by electing a Democrat as the next president is going to change anything, then they are smoking crack.

    The only diference between the candidates is rhetoric, that’s all. When the rubber hits the road, they are all the same.

  57. WayneB Comment by WayneB

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    As I am trying to get it into your heads, we need to go after the people who attacked us, not be diverted by BushCo, whose only intent is to secure oil for his financial masters.

    You sound like an inexperienced Chess player, who would expend all his energy capturing his opponent’s Queen, only to find that he had been outmaneuvered. By implying that we could stop after getting “the people who attacked us”, you show that you are missing the larger picture.

    As has been pointed out too many times to count, both Al Queda and Iraq are merely the low-hanging fruit in the larger conflict to raise the long-term overall security of this country. Yes, as has also been pointed out numerous times, we have interests in oil over there, but until we are allowed to actually take the steps to reduce our dependence on that oil, it is also part of our overall security equation.

    The name War on Terror may have been realtively accurately portrayed as a Bumper Sticker Clogan, but not for the reasons that Edwards used. Rather, because it is a conviently short phrase which, to most people, conveys the sense of what the person saying it means. It could be perhaps more accurately called, “The campaign to convice those who would kill us because of the beliefs we hold and the culture we have that they would be better off tending to their goats, while we convince the rest of their less homicidal brethren to join us in the 21st century,” which is a bit more awkward to say in conversation. ALL of it has to be dealt with. Either now, or after they have infiltrated us as badly as they have the EU, at which time the bloodbath will make what’s going on now look like a paper cut.

  58. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    Oh boy, now THAT’s a solution.

    We converted a predatory, religion based warrior culture into a nation that values baseball, some good natured fun, and an appreciation for capitalism with a bit of a unique twist with only two A-bombs.

    I’ve been to Saudi Arabia. A few mushroom clouds over Dhahran, Riyadh, and KKMC, could only improve that kitty litter box of a country.

  59. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    As has been pointed out too many times to count, both Al Queda and Iraq are merely the low-hanging fruit in the larger conflict to raise the long-term overall security of this country.

    Horsefeathers. But now you become honest:

    Yes, as has also been pointed out numerous times, we have interests in oil over there, but until we are allowed to actually take the steps to reduce our dependence on that oil, it is also part of our overall security equation.

    Why the fuck do you think there is terrorism in the form of Al Qaeda? Because we have the tendency to think that all of OUR oil somehow got under the feet of all them backwards brown people.

    In an effort to “save” ourselves, we exploit the lands and property of others simply because we have the military might to do so. We could reduce our dependence on foreign oil, but we choose to drive our gas-guzzling SUVs and to hell with anyone who gets in our way.

    We are in a race to oblivion, but you could care less. After all, you and I will probably be dead in forty years when all of the obtainable oil dries up. Your kids won’t be, and neither will your grandchildren, but it sounds like you could give a fuck.

    But all of this isn’t so much about getting us MORE oil, it is about CONTROLLING whats left. This is how stupid we’ve been. We wouldn’t want Iraqis to continue with nationalized oil fields, now would we? We want Exxon-Mobil to own the oil so they can rake in even more profits.

    This whole Iraq war thing was dreamed up by the oil companies, NOT because of some “terrorism/security” excuse, but because it is good for the bottom line on the PNL.

    Everything else is all smoke and mirrors.

    Fortunately, the majority of people in this country are starting to get it now. Most of us want an end to it now.

  60. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    Why the fuck do you think there is terrorism in the form of Al Qaeda?

    Osama Bin Laden used his monetary share of the family’s construction (not oil) business.

  61. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    Why the fuck do you think there is terrorism in the form of Al Qaeda? Because we have the tendency to think that all of OUR oil somehow got under the feet of all them backwards brown people.

    I gotta take exception to something here, I have not heard ONE LC on this entire site refer to ANY group with such a derogatory term as “brown people”…the only time I hear it is from people on the left. If you are trying to infer closet racism on conservatives by using such a racist term yourselves, then all it does is point who the REAL racists are…better check in your own closet before you so discretely label us.

    But all of this isn’t so much about getting us MORE oil, it is about CONTROLLING whats left. This is how stupid we’ve been. We wouldn’t want Iraqis to continue with nationalized oil fields, now would we? We want Exxon-Mobil to own the oil so they can rake in even more profits.

    yes, those evil corporate oil bastards flew those planes into the WTC, and blew up Flight 103 over Lockerbie, and beheaded those little girls in Indonesia etc etc etc blah blah…..

    I sense a put-on going on here, you’re just trying to egg us on right DJ?, by spouting the dailykos talking points? I still believe that you’re smarter than this Dave….you’re just having fun pulling our chains aren’t you you devil..

  62. Serious Sean Comment by Serious Sean

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    Wait, if we went into Iraq just for the oil, why didn’t we just seize the oil fields and a route to the ports? What are we doing in Sadr City and Baghdad? If oil was the only motive, why the Hell hasn’t the US military seized any of it?

    As for Al-Qai’da in Iraq, Zarqawi was Jordanian, and many of the Al-Qai’da operatives there are foreign. Al-Qai’da has repeatedly stated that Iraq is the forefront of their campaign vs. the west.

    Besides, the Saudi gov’t is Al-Qai’da’s prime target-Al-Qai’da was founded to overthrow the Saudi royal family, who they view as too moderate. Sure, I don’t like the Saudi government, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

  63. Serious Sean Comment by Serious Sean

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    Oh yea, and if the stuff in that article is true…hang the bastards!

  64. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    Why the fuck do you think there is terrorism in the form of Al Qaeda? Because we have the tendency to think that all of OUR oil somehow got under the feet of all them backwards brown people.

    Osama bankrolled Al-Qaeda with the dough from his family’s construction business, not from oil.

  65. LC Mrs. M-ITT™ Comment by LC Mrs. M-ITT™

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    you’re just having fun pulling our chains aren’t you you devil..

    If he’s not then he needs to stop snorting, smoking, or main lining whatever shit has eaten the lining of his brain away.

  66. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    Why the fuck do you think there is terrorism in the form of Al Qaeda? Because we have the tendency to think that all of OUR oil somehow got under the feet of all them backwards brown people.

    Osama used the cash from his family’s construction business. (NOT OIL)

  67. WayneB Comment by WayneB

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    We are in a race to oblivion, but you could care less. After all, you and I will probably be dead in forty years when all of the obtainable oil dries up. Your kids won’t be, and neither will your grandchildren, but it sounds like you could give a fuck.

    I quite expect to be alive in 40 years, and I don’t expect the oil to dry up. The so-called “Global reserves” don’t take into consideration Tar Sands, such as the ones in Canada which are producing oil right now, and have an estimated yield equal to all the currently counted world reserves all by themselves, and which are not the only ones. It also doesn’t consider the comparatively recent discovery of oil far below the depths which previous theory said it would not be found.

    But all of this isn’t so much about getting us MORE oil, it is about CONTROLLING whats left.

    Again, this falls flat on its face. Not only because of the availability of alternative sources (which we can’t tap due to enviroweenie whining, except for being able to buy some from Canada), but also because it would be monumentally stupid for gas prices to be allowed to spiral upwards as they have, contributing to the disfavor of the administration in general, not just regarding the war. This goes back to the whole “retarded evil genius” meme: Make up your mind, is Bush stupid enough not to think of this, or is he smart enought to take in the whole country on the Intelligence issue? Do we want control over oil sources in the ME? Only enough to be assured that they won’d suddenly decide to cut us off one day. We don’t CARE for any more than that.

    In an effort to “save” ourselves, we exploit the lands and property of others simply because we have the military might to do so.

    This premise is ludicrous. It’s cheaper for us to just buy it.

    We could reduce our dependence on foreign oil…

    Somebody convince the enviroloons to get out of the damn way, and we’ll do that. It won’t stop Islamofascists from trying to destroy our culture. It might put off the terrorist attacks for a while, but their goal is complete dominance. YOU can plan on your grandchildren being part of that premedieval culture if you want, but not me.

  68. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    We could reduce our dependence on foreign oil…

    We could have been quite self sufficient in the energy department starting in the early eighties but for the environazis wanting to live in the Bronze Age.

  69. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    thought you guys hated the AP!

    here’s another passage from it:

    Patterson says that is not the only treacherous thing these groups have done. “When the Iraq war first started, CODEPINK and Medea Benjamin went to Baghdad and opened an office designed to try to encourage American soldiers to desert, go AWOL, and not fight the war,” he explains. “Again, that’s aiding and abetting the enemy.”

  70. Tsubaki Shijuro Comment by Tsubaki Shijuro

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    >Why the fuck do you think there is terrorism in the form of Al Qaeda? Because we have the tendency to think that all of OUR oil somehow got under the feet of all them backwards brown people.

    Haha, hahaha, hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
    That’s a total knee-slapper. I can only assume that it was a sarcastic parody of a leftist bumper sticker or a drunken “woman” from CODEPINK.

    Al Qaeda is just more of the same thing they’ve been doing to others and to each other since the very beginning. Long before there were evil Americans stealing everybody’s oil.

    The issue with Al Qaeda (or any of the other terrorists) never has been and never will be oil. The issue is that they’re very, very bad people, so they do very, very bad things. They would be doing them even if they had never heard of the United States or anybody else outside I-slum.

    It really is that simple.

  71. Tsubaki Shijuro Comment by Tsubaki Shijuro

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    >such a derogatory term as “brown people”…the only time I hear it is from people on the left

    Just about the only people these days who care about so-called “race” or think that it should be part of the criteria for making decisions are leftist types. How do we create a color blind society? Get rid of the leftists.

  72. Unregistered Pingback by Inoperable Terran » Really getting mad

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    […] turns out Code Pink and other “peace” groups have been sending cash directly to terrorists in Iraq so they can better kill our military men and women. Better yet, a Dem Cong Congressman helped them. […]

  73. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Dave:

    Oh boy, now THAT’s a solution.

    Yes, it is. I really get tired of having to do the same job, over and over and over, ad nauseum. Do it, do it right, and fix the problem forever and get it the hell over with. Green glass makes piss poor terrorists, and we can pump the oil out from under it.

    I WOULD vote if I thought that there was much of a difference between the candidates.

    Then why keep telling us about AlBore and al-Querry?

    If anyone thinks that by electing a Democrat as the next president is going to change anything, then they are smoking crack.

    This one may have an actual argument behind it. Certainly, it will make no difference in IRAQ, since if a Democrat President pulls us out, they, the Libruls own it. When that happens, every Republican will be able to point at every atrocity and say “SEE! We Told Ya So! Nener Nener!”I will be doing so, as well. Don’t expect a Democrat pullout of Iraq. Same way you will never see the democrat Congress cut off funds.

    Y’all already own one war given away. Two will disband the party.

    “Al Qaeda of Iraq” is NOT the same group of fucknozzles who attacked us — they are made up primarily of Iraqis who are trying to rid their country of our presence. They did not exist prior to our invasion and occupation.

    Read something besides JT Davis, MovethehellOnalready and Kos (oh, and Pravda on the Pacific), Dave. The insurgents we are fighting in Iraq: 1) Are coming primarily (73% of the dead ones so far) from Syria and Iran. 2) Are being trained in Syria and Iran. 3) Under the terms of various international agreements, are classified as terrorists and may be summarily shot on the battlefield.

    Furthermore, Your War For Oil post (second two thirds of # 60) is just silly, and a simple look at the price of a barrel of oil will show it to be so. If the primary concern for this war was to get the oil, we would have done so already; instead of paying 70 bucks a barrel, we would be paying about 10, which would still allow a nice profit for the Indigs that happen to be so inconsiderate to be camping on top of our oil.

    “Good Soldiers can always get you gold.” We have the worlds best, Dave. That doesn’t change the fact that, considering what the Long War has cost us so far, we are paying about $150.00 per barrel for oil, if we took every drop in the entire Middle East right this minute. That only makes sense to Newspaper Editors, Congesscritters, Markos, Michael Moore and Cindy Shehag.

    You, Sir, are smarter than this, and capapble of making better arguments than this. C-.

  74. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    OK, now I know you’re yanking our chains, Dave.

    If we were really at “War for Oil” (and what’s wrong with waging war to secure the supply of the single most important component of your economy, by the way?), then there’d be a lot much easier ways to go about it, as has been pointed out more than adequately by others on this thread.

    Not to mention the easiest of them all: If all we wanted was cheap oil, we could’ve quietly declared that Saddam had fulfilled all of his obligations under the ceasefire (we wrote it, we get to decide when all of its provisions have been met. Everybody else can go cry in their beer) and lifted the embargo in return for an oil deal with Saddam, a deal we could make so sweet that it would make him kick out the fwenchies, Russkies and G-d knows who else overnight and it would still be a bargain as far as we’re concerned.

    Then we’d have a secure, almost infinite oil supply AND we’d have its own built-in security force sitting on top of it, a security force led by a brutal thug who’d do anything to make sure that his new best friends in the world, the Ameriki, would never miss a drop of crude.

    We wouldn’t have to fire a shot, all of our forces that used to patrol the unfriendly Iraqi skies or sit around the border keeping the Iraqis in would be free to do something else, we’d have exclusive rights to Iraqi crude at a very reasonable price, all in return for guaranteeing Saddam that nobody would mess with him ever again. AND, on top of all of that, the president would be able to present himself as the guy who “brought peace to the troubled Middle East” and “lifted the embargo so that all of the poor Iraqi children could eat again.”

    THAT is how a cynical, “let’s get our hands on the oil” president would go about business, and there’s not a damn thing anybody could have done about it, yet you’re telling us that he embroiled us in a global conflict that has cost us a fortune in blood and treasure and hasn’t secured one solitary drop of oil for us INSTEAD?

    Really. That must be some powerful shit you’re smoking, old buddy.

  75. Wild-Eyed Charlie Comment by Wild-Eyed Charlie

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    There’s three suits in the card game of politics: Hearts (friendship or love), diamonds (money), and clubs (force). Guess which one is the trump suit? Diplomacy can only work when there’s certain knowledge of serious consequences for its violation.

    You forgot spades (for the losers to be buried with).

    CODEPINK lists its physical addresses on its website.

  76. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I gotta take exception to something here, I have not heard ONE LC on this entire site refer to ANY group with such a derogatory term as “brown people”…the only time I hear it is from people on the left. If you are trying to infer closet racism on conservatives by using such a racist term yourselves, then all it does is point who the REAL racists are…better check in your own closet before you so discretely label us.

    No, you call them other names, put down their religion, threaten to kill each and every one of them until they capitulate to our needs. I have just simplified it for you, because the end meaning appears to be the same.

    I don’t really need to infer anything myself, all I need to do is put everything said here into a box and that is how it comes out.

    Let’s reveiw, shall we?

    We got attacked by 19 Muslim men — fifteen of which came from Saudi Arabia and all were led by a Saudi national who runs a terrorist organization made up of Sunni Muslims.

    We get mad, attack Afghanistan and their Taliban government because they don’t want to deliver the head of the terrorist organization because he is their “guest”.

    We kill a few Taliban and Al Qaeda members but let the most important people get away to Pakistan, where everybody including the dictator of Pakistan (our good buddy) knows where they are.

    We arrest a high profile twenty-year-old “American Taliban”, make a huge show out of trying and convicting him for his pure stupidity, and then we move on to attack Iraq — which had absolutely nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11.

    {Incidently, the “American Taliban” is complaining because he considers his sentence for “stupidity” to be excessive and wants the same commutation of sentence Bush granted to Scooter)

    We attack Iraq because we are sold a bill of goods about Saddam having weapons of mass destruction, and was on the verge of using them against the US. We are also told that Saddam was a brutal dictator that if we deposed him, the people of Iraq would greet us as liberators much like the scene out of Band of Brothers. We are also sold on the idea that the people of Iraq are wanting to be just like the United States, and if we went in and deposed Saddam, we would have a free and friendly Iraq in “Six days, six weeks, but no more than six months”.

    Seventy percent of Americans supported this war in the beginning because they bought the lies and they were still pissed about 9/11. They bought the lie that there was some tenuous connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda, mainly because an “Al Qaeda base” was discovered along the border in Northern Iraq (where Saddam had absolutely no control over due to our no-fly zones and crippling sanctions)

    The intelligence was cooked on Iraq though most here will go through unnatural contortions to “prove” otherwise. But if you look at everything as a whole, the picture is undeniable. Some of it was faulty assumptions going back through the course of twelve years, a lot of it was simply manufactured, such as the Yellow cake story out of Nigeria.

    Joe Wilson dared to contradict Bush and Cheney on their Nigerian Yellow cake story and a concerted effort was employed to punish him and his wife — who actually worked in the non-proliferation section dealing with WMD and might actually know something about the topic.

    Nobody was ever convicted for the crime of outing a covert CIA operative and her operation — mainly because the investigation was obstructed by White House officials to the point where it appears that everyone was giving up her name at the same time.

    (Contrary to the opinions of many on the Right, the facts are that I. Scooter Libby DID violate the law four times, and was convicted and sentenced within legal and accepted guidelines for such a crime. Bush went out of his way to pervert the law to save a staffer for political gain by commuting his sentence for being “excessive”. The fact that he hasn’t commuted any other “excessive sentences” pretty much shows that THIS particular commutation was a political favor”, and a misscarriage of justice)

    What many on the Right want to say now is that is it perfectly alright to lie to federal law enforcement official and a Grand Jury trying to conduct an investigation — as long as YOU think the investigation itself is unwarranted.

    This war is about oil and our control over it. Let me rephrase that: the major oil companies’ control over it. They own this administration and government lock, stock, and barrel, and Bush and Cheney are doing their bidding.

    The American people aren’t going to just go to war at the benefit and request of Exxon-Mobil et al, so BushCo had to sell the war with a stock of faulty reasons.

    If we were really at “War for Oil” (and what’s wrong with waging war to secure the supply of the single most important component of your economy, by the way?), then there’d be a lot much easier ways to go about it, as has been pointed out more than adequately by others on this thread.

    What’s wrong with it? It isn’t ours, and it doesn’t belong to the oil companies. But we are being asked to fight a war and spill blood so that the oil companies can control the oil and its profits.

    Wake up, Misha. We are creating more terrorists by our actions than there were to begin with. At some point you have to wonder WHY there were terrorist attacking us in the first place. It certainly wasn’t because they were bored and decided to take on the most powerful nation in the world for kicks. It was because they were seeing us violate their land, people, resources and beliefs and they lashed out in the only way they could.

    I am certainly not saying that they were right or correct to do so, but in order to understand your enemy, you HAVE to see things from their perspective.

    We cannot win this war militarily. Not in a thousand years. (they have more experience at carrying on a thousand-year grudge than we do) The ONLY way we are going to ‘win’ at this is politically, through dialog — and that means some give and take.

    Until now, this administration has refused to allow countries like Iran and Syria to become involved with the outcome of Iraq. Yet they are the only logical players to pacify the region. We need to start up a serious dialog with Iran and put our past arguments and fights to rest. It doesn’t mean we have to give up our support for Israel’s right to exist or anything like that, but it would go a long ways to putting an end to much of the squabbling going on over there.

  77. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    We cannot win this war militarily.

    Sure, we can just surrender.
    I don’t see any plans after that from the leftocracy.
    How dare they accuse Dubya for going INTO it without an exit plan?

    Yet they are the only logical players to pacify the region.

    The “only”??

    Then you just don’t know whom you reffer to or the nature of the forces at work, their goals and strategies.

  78. B.C., Imperial Torturer™ Comment by B.C., Imperial Torturer™

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    Dave, to put it succinctly, you are cordially invited to go have coital relations with yourself.

    Yeah, you’re a great tech wizard and all that nifty shit, but lately you’ve become completely unhinged and joined hands with the likes of Rosie O’Donuts & Cindy Shitcan over on the Stoopid Side of the Idiotarian Parallel Universal Divide™. Your tired, worn-out and haggard anti-American screeds aren’t even worthy of ripostes anymore.

    Please jump on a leaky freighter and join your fellow kind somewhere in the world. Hell, it’s just a short float down to Cuba or Venezuela.

  79. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    We are creating more terrorists by our actions

    It’s quite alright, they’re going away a little quicker these days anyhoo,,
    They’ll run out of voluteers sooner if you quit givin’ the recruiters such fine propaganda.

  80. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Dave, you are either smoking something way too powerful, or you have gone round the bend.

    I thought you were having us on until I got to that last post. You need help.

  81. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    O.K. DJ…I’ll let you pull my chain some more:

    No, you call them other names, put down their religion, threaten to kill each and every one of them until they capitulate to our needs. I have just simplified it for you, because the end meaning appears to be the same.

    We threaten to kill each and every one of them because they are INTENT on doing that to us, it is written in their faux holy book…and it is preached to them in their mosques. Your denial and naivete in this matter will only get you beheaded.

    We arrest a high profile twenty-year-old “American Taliban”, make a huge show out of trying and convicting him for his pure stupidity, and then we move on to attack Iraq — which had absolutely nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11.

    {Incidently, the “American Taliban” is complaining because he considers his sentence for “stupidity” to be excessive and wants the same commutation of sentence Bush granted to Scooter)

    The american taliban was not only stupid, but guilty of fighting against us…he was captured on the battlefield, AND he was complicit in an escape attempt where the escapees killed CIA officer Mike Spann. He is guilty of treason against the US. Now I know that there are a lot of you guys on the left that consider treason to be the ultimate in patriotism, but to even try to compare his sentence to Libby’s is beyond inane. He’s a traitor and a murderer.

    We are also sold on the idea that the people of Iraq are wanting to be just like the United States, and if we went in and deposed Saddam, we would have a free and friendly Iraq in “Six days, six weeks, but no more than six months”.

    and clinton said our troops would be in Kosovo for no more than a year…….

    Joe Wilson dared to contradict Bush and Cheney on their Nigerian Yellow cake story and a concerted effort was employed to punish him and his wife — who actually worked in the non-proliferation section dealing with WMD and might actually know something about the topic.

    Nobody was ever convicted for the crime of outing a covert CIA operative and her operation — mainly because the investigation was obstructed by White House officials to the point where it appears that everyone was giving up her name at the same time.

    Wilson went there with an agenda, to discredit the claim about yellow cake. He didn’t even investigate when he went there, he just took the word of some “officials”. Plame was a third tier paper pusher, Dave…when I worked for the DoD in 1990 I was responsible for generating high detail DTED data maps tracking Iraqi troop movements….to be used to set strategy for the impending war in real time. If we use the standards of importance that you use to give plame credibility, then you could say that I won the Gulf War because I told the Coalition Forces where the Iraqis were deploying….so where’s my medal???

    What’s wrong with it? It isn’t ours, and it doesn’t belong to the oil companies. But we are being asked to fight a war and spill blood so that the oil companies can control the oil and its profits.

    France doesn’t belong to us, Saipan doesn’t belong to us, North Africa doesn’t belong to us, Iwo Jima doesn’t belong to us…yet many Americans spilled blood in those places….and they STILL don’t belong to us.

    Wake up, Misha. We are creating more terrorists by our actions than there were to begin with. At some point you have to wonder WHY there were terrorist attacking us in the first place. It certainly wasn’t because they were bored and decided to take on the most powerful nation in the world for kicks. It was because they were seeing us violate their land, people, resources and beliefs and they lashed out in the only way they could.

    Are we the ones who genitally mutilate their girls? Are we the ones who blow up their mosques when they are packed with worshippers? Are we the ones who fired all of the oil fields in Kuwait, polluting their air and land and fishing waters for months? Are we the ones who pervert their beliefs into a killing creed? No, we are trying to fight back to preserve our culture and religion instead of submitting to the beheaders…if they are insulted by that then I’m all for insulting them a little more violently.

    Until now, this administration has refused to allow countries like Iran and Syria to become involved with the outcome of Iraq. Yet they are the only logical players to pacify the region. We need to start up a serious dialog with Iran and put our past arguments and fights to rest. It doesn’t mean we have to give up our support for Israel’s right to exist or anything like that, but it would go a long ways to putting an end to much of the squabbling going on over there.

    What’s that line from the song Woodstock? Oh yeah: “and I dreamed I saw the bomber jet planes riding shotgun in the sky,turning into butterflies above our nation”….yeah, I wouldn’t mind that either. But you want us to talk with a tyrant who has stated that he will wipe Israel off the map, who is producing nukes and flipping off the world while doing it, who is supplying not so covert aid to the terrorists we are fighting in Iraq…and you think he is the logical one to pacify the region? Whatever you’re smoking makes me wish I hadn’t gotten clean and sober 20 years ago…

    We cannot win this war militarily. Not in a thousand years.

    What Cheapshot said:
    They’ll run out of volunteers sooner if you quit givin’ the recruiters such fine propaganda.

  82. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Advice to the left:
    Don’t engage reality without an exit plan.

  83. ACLPoo Comment by ACLPoo

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    PWNED by Jaybear. Nice.

  84. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    and then we move on to attack Iraq — which had absolutely nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11.

    Are you absolutely sure  ’bout that, Dave?

    Guys, now  do you understand why I called him “a huge honkin’ vat of steaming political bullshit”?

  85. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    and then we move on to attack Iraq — which had absolutely nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11.

    Not in the least bit relevant.

    Regime change has been our policy since 1998.

  86. Tsubaki Shijuro Comment by Tsubaki Shijuro

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    >at some point you have to wonder WHY there were terrorist attacking us in the first place.

    There’s nothing to wonder about. You still seem to be forgetting (very, very conveniently) that they aren’t doing anything new. They’ve been slaughtering Muslims and non-Muslims since the very beginning. That’s just what they do, because they’re evil people with a vile, evil culture. Blaming the United States for the choices the people of I-slum have been making for many centuries is the kind of moral mushiness and intellectual laziness that makes liberals look so amoral and dull-witted.

    I still think you’re joking, though. It’s all just too much like an over-the-top parody of leftist kooks.

  87. Tsubaki Shijuro Comment by Tsubaki Shijuro

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    >Advice to the left:
    Don’t engage reality without an exit plan.

    There is an exit plan: Return to emotional response and bumper sticker politics.

  88. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Dave, to put it succinctly, you are cordially invited to go have coital relations with yourself.

    You must be related to Dick Cheney.

    Yeah, you’re a great tech wizard and all that nifty shit, but lately you’ve become completely unhinged and joined hands with the likes of Rosie O’Donuts & Cindy Shitcan over on the Stoopid Side of the Idiotarian Parallel Universal Divide™. Your tired, worn-out and haggard anti-American screeds aren’t even worthy of ripostes anymore.

    You are the one who is diagonally parked in a parallel universe. I am talking as part of the mainstream, not the 20 percent you are representing.

    Throwing out Rosie or Shehan’s name doesn’t really impress me, they don’t speak for me any more than I speak for them. I think I can find as much to disagree with them as I can find with you.

    At either rate, I am certainly not going to tell you to go F yourself just because we disagree.

    So what, we disagree. Big deal, big surprise. I’m not the one swallowing the load from the White House.

    Are you absolutely sure ’bout that, Dave?

    Salman Pak? Yes, absolutely sure. Salman Pak was built in the mid-1980s as a counter-terrorism camp. The US Military could find no evidence that it was used for anything other than that. But nice try, though you should try to remain current.

    This is what I am talking about. You all try to poke holes in every little story. But step back for a moment and look at the bigger picture. While you are looking at pixels, the rest of us see the entire picture plain as day.

    You are being played for suckers. Escalation in troop numbers (the Surge) only result in an escalation of violence.

    Meanwhile, the reason for this “Surge” was to provide breathing room for the Iraqi Parliament to meet certain benchmarks — the most important one being “The Oil Law”, that literally gives control of Iraq’s oil and its profits to Exxon-Mobil.

    So far, the Iraqis aren’t having it.

    Now we have our Boy-King issue another one of his Executive Orders that threatens 75 percent of the people in this country.

    You can add this to some of the other Executive Orders he’s issued lately that would allow him to literally suspend elections and the Constitution if he feels like it.

  89. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    BTW: I see that Hosting Matters is now blocking Comcast connections, so I am probably not going to return soon

  90. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    You must be related to Dick Cheney.

    ‘Little late for flatery dontchya think?

  91. LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR Comment by LC JackBoot IC/A-OBR

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    I see that Hosting Matters is now blocking Comcast connections

    That’s odd, my Comcast connection is working just fine.

    so I am probably not going to return soon

    Don’t let the door hit you on the ass, your skull may not contain it anymore.

  92. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    There is an exit plan: Return to emotional response and bumper sticker politics.

    Them’s ain’t plan-A?

  93. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    BTW: I see that Hosting Matters is now blocking Comcast connections, so I am probably not going to return soon

    They are? WTF is up with THAT?

    Probably just some temporary issue, or I shall have to talk to them in very large letters.

  94. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    That’s odd, my Comcast connection is working just fine.

    My connection is fine as well.

  95. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Salman Pak? Yes, absolutely sure. Salman Pak was built in the mid-1980s as a counter-terrorism camp. The US Military could find no evidence that it was used for anything other than that. But nice try, though you should try to remain current.

    And perhaps you should try to remain credible.  Sorry, bubba - Media Matters, PureBullShit and the New Ass Snorkler New Yorker aren’t what I’d consider to be definitive authorities, y’know?

    This is what I am talking about. You all try to poke holes in every little story. But step back for a moment and look at the bigger picture. While you are looking at pixels, the rest of us see the entire picture plain as day.

    Except for the one about the Islamofucks trying to kill us.  Seems you can’t pull your noses out of Abu Ghraib, etc, long enough to see that one.

    Now we have our Boy-King issue another one of his Executive Orders that threatens 75 percent of the people in this country.

    Shoulda done it sooner.  Maybe the good citizens of Crawford wouldn’t have had to put up with Cindy the Anti-War Whore™ and her so-called “Camp Casey”.

  96. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    Don’t let the door hit you on the ass, your skull may not contain it anymore.

    JB, that’s just not nice.

  97. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    JB, that’s just not nice.

    Ah, but it is just soo JB

    *klink*

  98. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    I’ve long been troubled by this, but afraid to post.

    Jaybear
    They aren’t all trying to kill us. It’s pretty well-established that the people we are fighting are in 7th century barbaric mode, and they are misusing the tenets of Islam. But there are other countries that are our allies that are quite reasonable–Indonesia had a female prime minister; Algeria has a lot of female professionals. (I don’t include Saudi Arabia on the list of being civilized–I wish we could get them to stop aggressively exporting their hateful form of Islam.) Westernized muslims are working counterterrorism in Europe. I thought part of our reason for fighting in Iraq was to create a stable country that is a democracy (but then we should kill them all?)

    And as for the Koran, it is a contradictory document. They are evil sections, which is the only thing you guys focus on, and there are positive sections: to choose peace whenever possible and not harm woman, children, and innocent civilians–to do good. Evil and good–their choice on how to interpret it. There are hateful mosques, and there are ones preaching peace. If I could get my spouse to remember, he will bring me a Koran from the bookstore, and I will read it myself and see how the evil/good balances out. (There goes a chunk of my life.) And yes, I have some familiarity with the Bible, just in case someone says to read the Bible instead.

    Do not lecture me on Al-Queda. I am well aware there are horrible and dangerous people that want to kill us. Obviously, we should kill them. My point is that not every Muslim in the world deserves to die.–there are a lot of peaceful people (who are not condemning terrorism like they should be).

    DoD–Cool!

  99. Ten-Ten Comment by Ten-Ten

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    My point is that not every Muslim in the world deserves to die

    Psychochick-

    Very true. I think you’ll find most of us agree with that sentiment. However, what is very troubling is that the non-hateful Muslims aren’t jumping up and down decrying the actions of the jihadists. There seems to be a silent consent. A sort of “Lets wait and see how this thing shakes out. We don’t want to be on the wrong side of history.” That will always breed contempt.

  100. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    They aren’t all trying to kill us.

    True. The ones that aren’t active in Jihad are cheering on, quietly or openly, the ones who are. The rest are waiting to see who comes out on top.

    and they are misusing the tenets of Islam.

    Sorry but no. They are playing by their rulebook as is.

    I thought part of our reason for fighting in Iraq was to create a stable country that is a democracy

    …an oldie but a goodie…
    You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

    there are a lot of peaceful people

    There is the likes of Ayan Hirsi Ali, there was also Oriana Fallaci (RIP). So yes, the good folk exist. Not in the numbers that I’d prefer though.

  101. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    There’s also the matter of the money trails.
    Unlike what we hear, many transfers we can sure of.

  102. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    That’s odd, my Comcast connection is working just fine.

    You are probably on the Home network. I am on a static IP through Comcast Business. Right now I have to remote desktop to my work computer. I cannot ping anything in the range of 63.247.128.0 - 63.247.143.255, which is all owned by Hosting Matters Doesn’t Care.

    I cannot wait for my Verizon FIOS installation in twelve days.

    And perhaps you should try to remain credible. Sorry, bubba - Media Matters, PureBullShit and the New Ass Snorkler New Yorker aren’t what I’d consider to be definitive authorities, y’know?

    And National Review is the credible source?

    Your source lists only itself as a source. All of the others had cross sources — including the US Military itself.

    We helped set up Salman Pak — we paid for it and even supplied the aircraft that you consider “proof” Saddam was training hijackers.

    Yes, there were a couple of ‘defectors’ who told us that this was not only a terror training camp, but also a WMD lab site. Those ‘defectors’ were part of Chalabi’s network of Iranian spies trying to make sure we invaded Iraq.

    I would echo what Psychochick said here, and elaborate on it a bit.

    Muslims are NOT trying to kill us. Just a tiny faction that give the other billion or so a bad name.

    I don’t believe in the Christian faith, but I certainly am not going to tell anyone here that their religion is so outdated and stuck in the first century. (as opposed to the accusation that Islamists are stuck in the Seventh century) I am much more tolerant than that.

    Virtually every Muslim I know (and I know quite a few of them) don’t tell me that I need to convert to their faith, or that all infidels need to die. In fact, I get more pressure from the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witneses to convert to their faith than I do from the Muslims.

    If you would sit down for a few moments and consider WHY we have problems with these people instead of reacting to what I am saying. I am not telling to to excuse them for their actions, but to simply consider what is motivating them. Perhaps you might see that there is another avenue to solve the problem other than trying to anihilate and entire group of people.

    You say that we liberals don’t have any plans or solutions. We do — you just don’t hear them.

    We realize that the only solution is political, not Military. We need to get people talking again. The military has a role, to be sure, but you cannot force a peace with an occupying force without the cooperaton of those you occupy. We proved that ourselves with the British.

    We need to bring in the Iranians, the Saudis, and the Syrians to talk. They have as much, if not more of a stake in any outcome in Iraq than we do. We should have brought them in from the start.

    It is funny that the Iranians were helping us in Afghansistan going after the Taliban and Al Qaeda, but we shut them out and labeled them part of an Axis of Evil because they have ties to Hezbolla. We don’t shut out Saudi Arabia, and we KNOW they have ties to Al Qaeda.

    The point is, we need a new direction in the Middle East. The cowboy Bush approach has been nothing short of a disaster. Things are worse today than they have ever been prior to Bush taking office.

    PNAC dreamt up this experiment in the late 1990s. Now, almost ten years later, we now see it for the disaster it was predicted to be.

  103. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    We need to bring in the Iranians, the Saudis, and the Syrians to talk. They have as much, if not more of a stake in any outcome in Iraq than we do. We should have brought them in from the start.

    :rolleyes:

  104. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    You say that we liberals don’t have any plans or solutions. We do — you just don’t hear them.

    Some jokes just write themselves.

  105. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Gunsniper
    “You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.”
    —doesn’t seem like a chance in hell there will be a democracy, does there? It is one of our stated goals.

    G and 10-10 I’m not shouting; my bolding is evil.
    I have wondered if the silence is fear. It seems like if you speak up as a muslim, you would risk having homicidal maniacs after you. Indonesia had a peace rally, but they only had 12,000 people attending, which isn’t that many.

    Cheapshot
    You have my strong attention.

  106. LC Gunsniper Comment by LC Gunsniper

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    doesn’t seem like a chance in hell there will be a democracy, does there?

    They’re not going to cede 1400 years of dogma to a half-hearted attempt at equitable governance.

  107. Unregistered Comment by DukeFenton

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    # Comment by Fanusi Khiyal

    Guess not. The only malfunction is DJ here - who’s avatar says a great deal, mind you.

    You mean all mouth, no eyes and no room for a brain? That about sums it up.

    If DJ isn’t actually in the pay of the hadjis, he might as well be; hes certainly working hard for their interests…

  108. Unregistered Comment by Lord Spatula I, King & Tyrant

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    And National Review is the credible source?

    At least when they  say that the sky’s blue, I don’t have to go outside to double-check.

    Yeah, Dave, I’d sooner trust NRO than anything any liberal had to say.

    Your source lists only itself as a source. All of the others had cross sources — including the US Military itself.

    Oh.  Quite.  Filtered through Seymour Butts Hersh, if memory serves.

    And you question NR’s  credibility?

    We helped set up Salman Pak — we paid for it and even supplied the aircraft that you consider “proof” Saddam was training hijackers.

    Oh?  Gee, in scanning through all that leftist bullshit, I somehow don’t remember seeing the receipt for those services.  Don’t suppose you  have it, do you?

    Yes, there were a couple of ‘defectors’ who told us that this was not only a terror training camp, but also a WMD lab site. Those ‘defectors’ were part of Chalabi’s network of Iranian spies trying to make sure we invaded Iraq.

    Complete with a grassy knoll & everything, right, Dave? 

  109. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    [How irritating to have to go through two computers just to get here — One would think that I wasn’t wanted here…]

    If DJ isn�t actually in the pay of the hadjis, he might as well be; hes certainly working hard for their interests�

    Why does everything have to be stated in such extremes here?

    Look, I don’t agree with how this whole GWOT thing was handled. I firmly believe that we got off track almost from the beginning and the evidence is piling up all around us.

    A good leader makes mistakes and corrects. Bush makes mistakes and compounds them by remaking the same fucking mistakes over and over again. For a while you called him “strong” and “decisive”, we called it “bull-headed” and “insanity”.

    We were right to go after Osama Bin Laden and his little group of misfits. But we stopped.

    Instead, we went on with the PNAC model of world control for corporate interests where their statement of principles are (and I’ll paraphrase):

    1) Increase an already enormous military budget at the expense of domestic social programs

    2) Toppling of regimes resistant to our corporate interests

    3) Forcing democracy at the barrel of a gun in regions that have no history of the democratic process

    4) Replacing the UN�s role of preserving and extending international order.

    These people knew that there was no way the American people or even mainstream Republicans would ever go along with their schemes unless there was a “catestrophic event such as Pearl Habor”:

    This isn’t something Liberals are making up. It is in plain language and available on their website. Everything I’ve said in this thread concerning the motivation behind this war is stated in plain language on the PNAC site.

    You want to label me as being crazy, or worse yet, aiding and abetting an enemy we’ve been creating through these insane policies, but the policies and motivations I am describing comes right out of the PNAC doctrine.

    No, I don’t think 9/11 was fake. But I do think that the administration knew something was coming and that it was allowed to happen.

    For Condi Rice to say that she could never imagine flying aircraft into buildings is incredible, considering that in June/2006 they took a threat of Muslims flying planes into the G8 conference in Genoa seriously. Bush stayed on an aircraft carrier for the conference.

    I am criticized for my sources on a lot of this stuff. Sorry, but the mainstream media is neutered and has been rendered totally useless by the government.

    (Have you ever wondered why it is that both the Right AND the Left decry our ‘mainstream media’?)

    Right now, I am not speaking from my Liberal side — I am speaking from rational, common sense. I am leaving political ideology out of it and standing back looking at the entire picture over the past six and a half years.

    It has been one disaster after another. Each individual thing by itself is meaningless. But putting them all together indicates a disturbing pattern.

    You have to admit that I come here to talk and observe. I tend to agree on a lot of things written here, and disagree on others. I am not afraid to admit when I have been wrong.

    I don’t carry a torch for Clinton or Kerry or anyone else for that matter. I respect certain aspects of ALL of our ‘leaders’, and can find flaws in each of them as well.

    I admit that I went into this war much like everyone else — in the beginning. I had some problems with certain aspects of reasoning, but felt that taking out Saddam was a good thing.

    But as time went on, I’ve come to realize — like almost 80 percent of the American people — that this war (and this administration) is wrong.

    I honestly believe that Bush and Cheney have committed impeachable, if not criminal offenses, but there is really no time left to go through the motions.

  110. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    [How irritating to have to go through two computers just to get here — One would think that I wasn’t wanted here…]

    Not hardly :) , but I would dearly love to find out what the heck was up with that. Also, I’d like to know why WordPress sometimes insists on inserting “\”s everywhere it finds a quotation mark, because it takes for flipping ever to go back and edit them out.

  111. Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur Comment by Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur

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    4) Replacing the UN�s role of preserving and extending international order.

    DJ, you need to post a spew alert before posting such inanities, my freind. Next you’ll start talking about alien conspiracies, and a kinder, gentler IRS.

  112. Tsubaki Shijuro Comment by Tsubaki Shijuro

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    >There is an exit plan: Return to emotional response and bumper sticker politics.>>Them’s ain’t plan-A?

    A through Z.

    >1) Increase an already enormous military budget at the expense of domestic social programs

    In other words, focus more on things in which government has a legitimate role rather than the creation of a collectivist dystopia.

    >2) Toppling of regimes resistant to our corporate interests

    In other words, kill genocidal thugs and tyrants.

    >3) Forcing democracy at the barrel of a gun in regions that have no history of the democratic process

    In other words, expecting adults to grow up and act like adults.

    >4) Replacing the UN’s role of preserving and extending international order.

    In other words, replacing an organization of complete and total imbeciles who have never done anything to promote freedom and goodness in the world but have on the other hand been a major force for the spread of death, disease, and slavery.

    >I am not speaking from my Liberal side — I am speaking from rational, common sense

    You’ve hit on a very, very important point there: It’s impossible to do both of those things at the same time. Modern liberalism and rational, common sense thinking are mutually exclusive.

  113. Tsubaki Shijuro Comment by Tsubaki Shijuro

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    >UN’s role of preserving and extending international order.

    I still can’t stop laughing about this one. Apparently there are a lot of rainbows and unicorns where you live.

    The UN “preserving and extending international order.” HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

    That’s so far past insanity that I don’t even know what to call it, other than, well, modern liberalism.

  114. Deathknyte Comment by Deathknyte

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    Not hardly :) , but I would dearly love to find out what the heck was up with that. Also, I’d like to know why WordPress sometimes insists on inserting “\”s everywhere it finds a quotation mark, because it takes for flipping ever to go back and edit them out.

    What about that oddity of question marks showing up for apostrophes at some sites?

  115. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    Tsubaki Shijuro-San

    Which versions of Sun Tzuh’s work have you been immersed in?

    Domo Ari-freakin’gato for showin’ up n hangin’!

  116. Radical Redneck Comment by Radical Redneck

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    Toppling of regimes resistant to our corporate interests…Replacing the UN’s role of preserving and extending international order.

    Deep end here we a come!

    Over/Under on when Dave starts spewing Illuminati™ and Freemason conspiracies? Or even Loch Ness Monster coverups?

    I say in 2 days! ;-)

  117. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    DJ, you need to post a spew alert before posting such inanities, my freind. Next you’ll start talking about alien conspiracies, and a kinder, gentler IRS.

    Sorry, it was from YOUR side, I just translated it.

    The actual wording was:

    • we need to accept responsibility for America’s unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

    To say nothing of anyone who dares to have their own ideas on how to run their fucking country.

    It is one thing to be a leader and to lead by example, but it is another to tell everyone else that they either capitulate to our demands or we will destroy them.

    We aren’t Rome, even though we have Nero as our leader.

    In other words, focus more on things in which government has a legitimate role rather than the creation of a collectivist dystopia.

    It was those other things that created the largest middle class in history. It was also what pulled us out of the Republican Depression. Now you want to go revisit those days?

    Most people are more concerned with affordable health care now than they are with a never ending, perpetual war on a tactic. They want a safety net — not to exploit, but to survive.

    Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex in his farewell speech in 1961.

    In other words, kill genocidal thugs and tyrants.

    Okay, then notice we are only going after those thugs and tyrants that have oil? As I recall, Republicans were so against Kosovo, Samalia, and Haiti, enough to continue attacking Clinton “during a time of war”.

    I’m not saying that we should turn our backs on thugs and tyrants, but I think I have demonstrated that is NOT the motivation of the administration. It is conquest and taking resources from countries that cannot stand up to us except by employing terror guerrilla tactics.

    We are in Iraq for one reason only: Oil. Take oil out of the equation, and it might as well be Darfur for as much this administration cares about it.

    The sad thing is, if we were to leave Iraq alone, much of the violence would go away. The rest can be handled by the Iraqis themselves — perhaps with the help of neighboring nations who actually know the language and customs. We are just seen there as occupiers and imperialists. The people know we are only there for the oil.

    In other words, expecting adults to grow up and act like adults.

    And that takes a democratic form of government? What works for us doesn’t necessarily work for others. For it to be truly democratic, you have to let them decide, NOT force them into it.

    If you want people to follow your example, you have to first set the example, and let people decide whether that is what they want or not. Lately, we haven’t exactly been setting a great example.

    In other words, replacing an organization of complete and total imbeciles who have never done anything to promote freedom and goodness in the world but have on the other hand been a major force for the spread of death, disease, and slavery.

    I don’t disagree that the UN is frought with problems. But we should try to FIX the problems, not just shitcan the whole thing because people like you want to be imperialists.

    You’ve hit on a very, very important point there: It’s impossible to do both of those things at the same time. Modern liberalism and rational, common sense thinking are mutually exclusive.

    The same can be said for the NeoConservative ideology as well. Extremes on both sides have one major thing in common: they are extreme.

  118. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Dave, my friend:

    Ah, hell. David, quite frankly, you are beginning to worry me scare the fucking hell out of me. Your last few posts have left me with only a limited set of possibilities. 1) JT Davis has stolen your login. 2) You are having us on a bit - having some fun at our expense. 3) You are high as a kite on some “better living through chemesty” experiment.

    Or, you have gone round the bend.

    I’m only gonna look at a few of the arguments you have made. The gulf cannot be that wide . . .

    I will say that accepting the word of moonbats, who intentionally place the worst possible interpretation on anything a Conservative does or says is not gonna win arguments here.

    Twisting an Executive Order into a threat to 3/4 of the country is more than a wee strange. The only possible way that happens is to define the subject as being anyone who buys gas from a company that buys oil from Iraq.

    Twisting an obscure think tank into a threat to the rest of the world is downright weird.

    Interpreting a PDB that says Osama bin Laden wants to cause problems for the U.S. into a fantasy that Dubya knew about the attacks ahead of time is obscene. Yes, everyone in the intellegence community knew bin Laden was serious, and was making threats, and was crazy enough to do damn near anything. We just didn’t know HOW fucking crazy he was. Anyone who claims he can look at the facts, indications, movements, funds, intelligence, reports from on the ground, etc. and come up with 19 nutcases flying into buildings in D.C. and New York is a liar, and you can tell him I said so. I saw the compillation afterwards (yes, all of it), and KNOWING WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT TO LOOK FOR, I am damned if I could see it.

    Five years after someone brings down the two tallest buildings in New York, it’s not paranoia to worry about someone flying planes into the G-8 conference. After all, Tom Clancy invented that attack in the early ’90’s. And, having been on one, an Aircraft Carrier is about as safe a place to stay as you can find. Unless you believe that the President of The United States deserves to die, so we need to make him an easier target.

    Being wrong doesn’t make one a liar. Every Intellegence service in the world thought Saddam Hussein had WMD capability INCLUDING HIS OWN! Is it so unreasonable to believe them? His not only tried to buy yellowcake in Africa, specifically in Niger, he did so. It was discovered (370 TONS, fercrissake!) in a warehouse north of Baghdad. Almost 4000 pounds (1.77 metric tons) was partially enriched, to the point where it was suitable for “dirty bombs”. Or second stage enrichment into HEU, enough for three Hiroshima / Nagasaki size bombs. Stored in the same complex was explosives that are only used for nuclear weapons. He may not have had them, but he was for damn sure working on it.

    Look, Dave, you tell us you have plans for the ME and the War on Terror, and what to do about radical Islam. Fine, then SHARE SOMETHING with us that doesn’t amount to quitting, burying your head in the sand, or paying the Danegeld they will demand (once you pay the Danegeld, you are stuck with the Dane. Forever.).

    America is the LAST HOPE of avoiding World Wide Dhimmitude.

    Give us credit for being at least as concerned as you, even if we don’t agree on methods. As I say, the Gulf CANNOT be that wide.

    Dubya isn’t the avatar of Satan.
    The U.N. is not the Guardian of the Universe.

    MoveOn and Kos are run by spoiled little children, who are busy throwing a temper tantrum because they can’t have their candy NOW damnit! They are eating their own.

    Don’t join them.

  119. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    To say nothing of anyone who dares to have their own ideas on how to run their fucking country.

    It is one thing to be a leader and to lead by example, but it is another to tell everyone else that they either capitulate to our demands or we will destroy them.

    Works for me. They’re certainly free to paint themselves blue, howl at the moon and worship a big black rock with a vagina, I couldn’t honestly care less, but the moment they choose to become a threat to me or mine and the security and safety of the nation that we live in, all bets are off.

    I’m not asking much. I’m just asking that they leave us the fuck alone, and if that’s too much of a demand for them, then THEY have just made it a choice between them and mine. Guess which side I’m going to come out on? I have one responsibility and one responsibility alone, and that’s to provide for and protect my own, and anybody, ANYBODY getting in the way of that are worth less than whale shit to me.

    End of story. Believe in what you will, behave in any fucking fashion you find pleasurable, I don’t care. It’s your problem. But don’t as much as even THINK about making me have to choose between me and my loved ones and you, or you’ll be sorry, because there’s only one appropriate choice there for me, and it doesn’t include respecting a bunch of savages thinking that it’s OK to threaten my loved ones with murder. I’ll not only kill cockroaches like that, I won’t give a damn about doing so either.

    I don’t disagree that the UN is frought with problems. But we should try to FIX the problems, not just shitcan the whole thing because people like you want to be imperialists.

    “Fraught with problems?” If that was all that it was, Dave, then I’d be willing to give it another try. But that cartel of tyrants, despots, genocidal maniacs and various and assorted corrupt fuckheads has existed for 60 years or so and they have not once, not ONCE contributed to anything worthwhile. Not once. They have failed miserably to do anything whatsoever except for stuffing their own pockets, they’re a fucking blight on humanity and they have proven, over a period spanning six decades, that they are utterly resistant to anything that might be, generously, described as even a slight willingness to learn from past mistakes.

    In any other area of life, a sane person would acknowledge that it was time to shitcan an idea that dysfunctional and start over. They’re not merely worthless, they’re so far BELOW worthless that they’re giving “worthless” a fucking bad name. The Sudan on the Human Rights Commission? Give me a fucking BREAK! The only thing they’re good for is giving worthless scum a podium from which they can spew their genocidal, Nazi insanity and, of course, making the world safe for child rapists.

    Kick the fucking arseholes out, tear down that monument to human stupidity and let’s start a new organization made up of people who are at least moderately sane.

    I don’t know, here’s a radical idea: How about starting out by limiting membership to nations with a constitutional democracy?

    I don’t give a rat’s lice-infested scrotum what dictators have to say about anything unless it is their last words before they’re shot in the back of their fat, murdering necks, and I sure as HELL don’t want to be funding their insane spew.

    As to “imperialism”, give me a gottdamm break, Dave. I not only am not imperialist, I don’t even want a G-d forsaken half acre of their turd world shitholes. They can keep it in good health or bad, I don’t care either way, we’ve got enough shit to deal with without assuming responsibility of their particular corner of a world that, as far as I’m concerned, isn’t worth pissing on.

    I just want one thing and one thing only from them:

    LEAVE ME AND MINE THE FUCK ALONE OR I WILL KILL YOU!

    Mercilessly, brutally and with great pleasure.

  120. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Here’s a trivia question for all who are still paying attention:

    Since the first adoption of the Geneva Convention, what is the only country we have faced in a war that has made some attempt to follow them? That is, not followed them precisely, since no one has, but at least made some nodding effort, and payed lip service?

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    Nazi Germany.

    Now, y’all want us to trust Islamo Fascists. Riiiight.

  121. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    but the moment they choose to become a threat to me or mine

    What I’d like to think would be the natural response to that kind of situation is just missing from the points Dave tend’s to address, they’re just not there.

    Do Nothing is The Plan. ‘Could work for him, but I make my odds otherwise.

    Each time an item is presented and illuminated, it dissolves into the terrible misconstruancies it takes to justify,, doing nothin, while gifting magnum ammo unto the hate america machine.

    That’s killing the wrong people, Dave.

  122. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    BTW,, These missiles won’t fly at our guys,, freakin’ BOOYAA!

  123. Unregistered Comment by leoni2

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    Man Misha, who were you channeling this time? A very ticked off Churchill?

  124. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Man Misha, who were you channeling this time? A very ticked off Churchill?

    That’s on my good days, leoni2 :)

  125. Unregistered Comment by leoni2

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    Misha,

    That’s on my good days, leoni2 :)

    May I ask who you channel on your bad day? Vlad the Impaler? :D

  126. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    I’m not asking much. I’m just asking that they leave us the fuck alone, and if that’s too much of a demand for them, then THEY have just made it a choice between them and mine. Guess which side I’m going to come out on? I have one responsibility and one responsibility alone, and that’s to provide for and protect my own, and anybody, ANYBODY getting in the way of that are worth less than whale shit to me. [emphasis mine]

    I am sure the feeling is mutual, but I wonder, when did Iraq come over here and mess with you?

    Yes, Saddam was a brutal dictator — he was emboldened by us. He fought a proxy war with Iraq when we got our puppet bounced outta there in 1979. (we overthrew a democratically elected government in Operation Ajax in 1953 because we believed that the Nationalist cabinet of Mohammed Mosaddeq might be leaning towards communism, and we couldn’t lose Western control of Iran’s oil infrastructure.

    The point is, we have been asking that WE leave THEM the fuck alone for a long time, yet we support dictators who are friendly to OUR demands to the detrement of their own people.

    The Royal family of the Saudis are a prime example.

    These worthless warts of humanity are one of the richest families in the world due to all of the oil profits that go to them, and not the people of the country. This has the average Saudi up in arms and spawns fucknozzles like Osama bin Laden. The Royal family tries to placate the masses by funding madrasas that tend to be breeding places for terrorists.

    One of Bin Laden’s main gripes against the US was our support of the Royal Family, who conducts beheadings in public squares every Friday. He wanted the oil nationalized so the profits go to the people, not a family propped up by the United States.

    Maybe you need to sit down and read the PNAC documents. Like I’ve been saying, I am NOT saying anything that isn’t already spelled out in detail right there on their own site.

    I can tell you all of this until I am blue in the face and it really isn’t going to change a damn thing. We’ve ceded our sovereinty over to big business years ago. All we can do is argue amongst ourselves and make believe that our opinions really count for something.

  127. CiSSnarl5.7 Comment by CiSSnarl5.7

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    Right now, I am not speaking from my Liberal side — I am speaking from rational, common sense. I am leaving political ideology out of it and standing back looking at the entire picture over the past six and a half years.

    And then is the failure of your argument Deej, you and every other liberal in the US are so consumed with BDS that it is all you look at.

    9/11 was the culmination of 40 years of Islamic / Muslim / Arab Agression toward the west, starting as far back as the early 70’s.

    Oil Embargo ring a bell ?
    How about the Munich Massacare?
    The Iranian hostage crisis?
    Pan-AM bombing?
    Mogadishu?
    USS Cole?
    USS Stark?
    USS Samual B Roberts?
    U.S. Embassy Tanzina?
    Any of this mean anything to you Deej?

    You claim to look at the big picture repeatedly through out your posts but I will bet if I go and look back at most of them they consitantly tie back no further then perhaps the last 8 years if that.

    As Misha has stated Leave us the fuck alone. Period.
    I would wager a bet fully 90% of every other American would say the same thing. Including the ones on the fornt lines, We don’t want war with the Muslim world any more than the liberals do Deej, and trying to tie the entire conservative / traditionalist population to a single think tank paper is BS. You know it I know it, lets not bandy words here shall we?

    The Radical elements in Islam refuse to do it, they refuse to meet us in any meaningfull consessions. They want a Caliphate and they want a world united under Islam, they have stated this repeatedly in no uncertain terms and there is NO Limits to thier quest, they will kill any one and anything that tries to stop them including fellow Muslims.

    Political soultion? Where??? How do you “engage in dialouge” with a regime like Iran who has stated in no uncertain terms Isreal should be wiped of the map, America is the great Satan..etc? How do you engage in dialouge with OBL? The man is a pyscho, as are his followers, they’re bat shit raving lunatics!

    If you’re going to trot out the tripe about “it’s only a tiny fraction of Islam” spare me the outrage Deej a tiny fraction of 1.5 Billion is a huge number no matter how you try to twist it to be “tiny”.
    Lets not add in the fact that its been regularly stated in study, poll, and research paper after paper that fully 50-60% of the Muslim world INDENTIFIES strongly with the AQ theology and feels the attacks on the west are justified. Still want to try the “it’s only a tiny minority of Muslims” Deej?
    How are you going to engae with that Deej? Sing them a pretty love song and hope they listen?

    When do you draw the line Deej? When a city goes up in a radioactive cloud of smoke?
    When YOUR family is scratching for food in some destroyed city that used to be a thriving center for the arts, education, etc?

    Make no mistake the Muslim /Arab world has bitten the very hand that feeds them. I live here and have for a very long time. Have You? I doubt it, you know the middle east from what you see in some leftist journal of record, or on CNN, I see it every day…in living color. There is no industry here, there is nothing else they can fall back on. They HAVE to sell thier prescious oil because that all they have. They import everything and export black gold. There is little else propping the over inflated economies up.

    Let suppose that somewhere right now an inventor is on the very verge of creating a renewable fuel that is clean burning evironmentally feasable and easy to create. It, within 12 month rushes to market, every one switches over to it and fuels thier homes and cars and industry with it.. Do you have any idea at all what that would do to the Arab wolrd / ME ? It would send thier economy into the dustbin of history, they would literally starve to death in the sand that they claim to be so holy because simply put..there is nothing else over here.

    You also asserted not long ago that it’s mostly Iraqi’s causing the insurgancy in Iraq, and you’re dead wrong, you have the Intel papers to prove it by all means you show me that proof other wise shut the fuck up about it because you’re talking out your asshole … and I’m pulling no punches on that account….I DO HAVE THE NEEDED CLEARANCE and I do see the Intel so on that point pound sand my friend because YOU DONT and your making assertion that you aint got a fucking CLUE about other then some left wing maxi pad like Mother Jones told you.

    At the end of the day you have to ask yourself how much is enough how many more embassy attacks, how many more airliners blown up full of innocents, how many more people have to die at the Altar of libral mantra before someone takes a stand?

    Bush took a hardline stance against the Arab world and it’s agression, you want to scream about that till the cows come home but sitting around bitching about Bush does not eliminate the single fact that the Arab/ Muslim world has brought this upon themselves with Greed and Ideology and a slavish devotion to the establishment of a Calipahte.

    Refute it all you want because the minute you refute it you’re just another whiny liberal asshat spouting whiny liberal ideology and showing your distate over a single man..GWB, And doing nothing to solve the problem.

  128. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    when did Iraq come over here and mess with you?

    ‘Reckon we’ve never been here before..[snort]

    Anyhoo

    No, saddam did, and failed to do some other stuff.

    BAD stuff.

  129. LC SkyeChild Comment by LC SkyeChild

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    DJ,

    Here’s a technical question. I can’t remember if this happened this way before, but if I click on a link in a post, clicking the back button brings me to the very bottom of the thread.

    I’d like to be brought to the post I was reading when I clicked on the link. Is that possible? Am I imagining things? (That’s quite possible. It’s late).

  130. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Snarl
    Great to hear from someone who has intel

    “every other liberal in the US are so consumed with BDS that it is all you look at”
    –what is BDS?

  131. LC SkyeChild Comment by LC SkyeChild

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    BDS=Bush Derangement Syndrome.

  132. LC SkyeChild Comment by LC SkyeChild

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    People who suffer from BDS can’t see anything good about this country AT ALL due to their intense hatred of all things Bush.

  133. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Just so you don’t think I am completely negative concerning the Iraq occupation:

    Al-Qaeda faces rebellion from the ranks

    Sickened by the group’s barbarity, Iraqi insurgents are giving information to coalition forces

    Fed up with being part of a group that cuts off a person’s face with piano wire to teach others a lesson, dozens of low-level members of al-Qaeda in Iraq are daring to become informants for the US military in a hostile Baghdad neighbourhood.

    The ground-breaking move in Doura is part of a wider trend that has started in other al-Qaeda hotspots across the country and in which Sunni insurgent groups and tribal sheikhs have stood together with the coalition against the extremist movement.

    “They are turning. We are talking to people who we believe have worked for al-Qaeda in Iraq and want to reconcile and have peace,” said Colonel Ricky Gibbs, commander of the 4th Brigade, 1st Infantry Division, which oversees the area.

    This is good news indeed. However, Al Qaeda in Iraq ranks about fifth in size compared to the others causing trouble there.

    Still, you gotta take it where you can get it.

  134. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Oil Embargo ring a bell ?
    How about the Munich Massacare?
    The Iranian hostage crisis?
    Pan-AM bombing?
    Mogadishu?
    USS Cole?
    USS Stark?
    USS Samual B Roberts?
    U.S. Embassy Tanzina?
    Any of this mean anything to you Deej?

    Sure, tit for tat. Look at all the shit we’ve been pulling in that region since we discovered our oil under their feet.

    None of those things you’ve listed were done because people had a lot of time on their hands and they were bored. These people felt they had legitimate beefs against the US and right or wrong they acted out on them.

    For every action there is a reaction. Unlike Newton’s law, it isn’t always equal and opposite.

    What we do today will have some kind of consequences tomorrow, next week, next month, or next year. It might be a decade or two.

    We do what WE think is “right” but sometimes we don’t see how it effects someone else. Maybe we don’t care, or maybe we just missed it.

    We’ve looked at the Middle East as our oil fields that we let people live on. But if they get in our way, we will come down hard on them.

    Unfortunately, we cannot just stop using oil tomorrow. We have relied on it too much to simply walk away from it cold turkey. So we have to get our oil from these people.

    But we should also be working full time to come up with a way to get us off of fossil fuel once and for all. If that means having an Apollo program for doing this, then I am all for it.

    I know one thing, we cannot just continue on in the direction we are heading too much longer.

  135. Emperor Misha I Comment by Emperor Misha I

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    Sure, tit for tat. Look at all the shit we’ve been pulling in that region since we discovered our oil under their feet.

    What, exactly? You mean buying the sticky crap from them? What the fuck else are they going to do with it? Eat it?

    Cry me a fucking river about their ancient grievances. I don’t give a flying flip, I had nothing to do with it and I would be perfectly happy to leave the shitheads and their magic rock to rot in the desert. They just happen to sit on something that is vital to us and I’m quite willing to pay market prices for it which, funnily enough, is exactly what we’ve been fucking doing ever since we found a use for the black shit. Are you trying to tell me that they can find a better deal but we won’t let them? Give me a farking break.

    And kindly don’t sing me that old tired song about bin Deadlen and his yammering about our presence in the Middle East as the root of all evil. You and I both know that it’s nothing but a bunch of demented talking points. His real grievance he got from Ayman al-Zawahiri who, in turn, got it from Sayyid Qutb who, while visiting the Great Satan to get the kind of education that his own 7th century shithole couldn’t offer him, was dismayed about the fact that he couldn’t find a fucking date for the prom and he had to watch all of those “degenerate” Americans holding hands, dancing, being happy and enjoying the things that he could never get from his favorite goat.

    Or how about the constant carping about “el Andalus?” Are you saying that we should recognize the pisslamic “claim” to Spain and give it back to them?

    Great. While we’re at it, could we please hand over the Baltic States, Sweden, Norway, Northern fwance and all of Britain to the Danes? I mean, if you don’t then the Danes, by your “logic”, have a perfectly legitimate reason to start blowing up kindergartens, right? Just think about all the shit the rest of the world has been pulling on them.

    Again: I don’t GIVE a flying fuck what they think and do not think that somebody has done to them. If they pick a fight, they’d damn well better get used to the fact that there are only two outcomes: Either they win or they get annihilated. If that’s “unfair”, then perhaps they should’ve kept themselves TO themselves, because I quite frankly don’t give a shit.

  136. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Great. While we’re at it, could we please hand over the Baltic States, Sweden, Norway, Northern fwance and all of Britain to the Danes? I mean, if you don’t then the Danes, by your “logic”, have a perfectly legitimate reason to start blowing up kindergartens, right?

    I dare say the Danes could do a better job of it, if they were so inclined, just because they are better organized . . .

    Dave, again, if it were just about Oil, we could have approached SoDamnInsane in 2001, 2002 or 2003, offered him 40 bucks a barrel for his fucking oil in return for lifting the sanctions, and been set forever. ExxonMobil would be just as rich, Hugo Chavez would be out of business, and gas would be about a buck fifty a gallon for regular. Great deal, right? Instead, we invade and the price goes up. Which was forseen.

    I refuse to accept responsibility for slavery in the U.S. a hundred years before I was born. Why should I accept blame for shit that happened in the 14th century?

    Continue to play Monday Morning Quarterback with the intellegence data. It’s a waste of time. All that counts is what we knew or should have reasonably expected to be true ON THE DAY THAT THE DECISIONS WERE MADE. Things we find out 3 seconds after the bombs start falling can’t count.

    We know Iraq had WMDs. He used them on his own people. After the first Gulf War, yhey admitted to having them. All they had to do to avoid invasion was tell us what happened to them, which was the agreement they made as part of the cease-fire agreement.

    We know Saddam was supporting terrorists. We have cancelled checks to prove it.
    We know Iran and Syria are sending weapons to the “insurgents”.
    We know Iran is sending “insurgents”. Hell, they have had the nerve to ask for the bodies back.
    By name.

    Big Picture, my ass.

  137. CiSSnarl5.7 Comment by CiSSnarl5.7

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    Sure, tit for tat. Look at all the shit we’ve been pulling in that region since we discovered our oil under their feet.

    No counterbalance to that either is there Deej? Hmm?
    None at all? Bud, You couldn’t see the big picture if it hit you on the fooking noggin!

  138. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    None of those things you’ve listed were done because people had a lot of time on their hands and they were bored. These people felt they had legitimate beefs against the US and right or wrong they acted out on them.

    So….do the deaths of 3000 innocent men WOMEN and CHILDREN on 9/11 at the hands of these islamonazis, and a 30 year record of slaughtering innocents in terrorist acts give US a legitimate beef with them? just applying your standards to the situation

  139. CiSSnarl5.7 Comment by CiSSnarl5.7

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    So….do the deaths of 3000 innocent men WOMEN and CHILDREN on 9/11 at the hands of these islamonazis, and a 30 year record of slaughtering innocents in terrorist acts give US a legitimate beef with them? just applying your standards to the situation

    SMACK..owww I think someone just got cluebatted…

  140. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    So….do the deaths of 3000 innocent men WOMEN and CHILDREN on 9/11 at the hands of these islamonazis, and a 30 year record of slaughtering innocents in terrorist acts give US a legitimate beef with them? just applying your standards to the situation

    As long as you don’t lash out at the wrong target, Jay.

    The issue here was Iraq. Iraq didn’t attack us on 9/11. Our target was — and still should be — Osama and his band of Al Qaeda. We let them all get away into Pakistan, while we shifted our sights to Iraq to take advantage of that “Pearl Harbor” moment PNAC was looking for.

    Wake up Jay! Wolfowitz, Cheney, Kristol, et al had been planning this entire scenario all the way back in the early 1990s. It’s all laid out in black and white in their working papers.

    Iraq’s only real crime was that it was sitting on oil that neither the US nor the major oil companies could control. We couldn’t control Saddam either, so he had to go.

    Our government could care less if Saddam brutalized his citizens or not. We certainly don’t care when Saudi Arabia does it on a routine and scheduled basis, and the claim of supporting terrorism rings a bit hollow when you consider the majority of money flowing towards terrorists is coming from … that’s right, Saudi Arabia.

    ====== took a break =====

    The general attitude here is that we have been going along, minding our own business, and suddenly, we suffer an unprovoked attack.

    That is what MOST people felt — we didn’t do anything, and they attacked us for nothing.

    The reality is, we have been doing shit for decades and as oblivious people going about our everyday lives, we paid little or no attention to it. Most people couldn’t point out the Middle East on a map, nor did they care. They knew a lot of our oil came from there, but other than that, zilch. As long as they can fuel up their gas guzzlers, nobody cares.

    I just ran across this interesting compilaton of events leading up to 9/11. You might want to look at it.

    Meanwhile, I am going to drive my usual 196 mile commute home…

  141. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

    Strict Standards: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, non-static method emotions::filter_text() should not be called statically in /home/misha/public_html/2007/wp-includes/plugin.php on line 59

    Meanwhile, I am going to drive my usual 196 mile commute home

    Dayum! Time to, like, MOVE, ya think? Even in that Audi, that’s gotta be at least 6 gallons each way.

    ==============

    Now, to your link:

    I have started to read it, but about two paragraphs in, I was struck with the thought “Whothefuckarethesepeople?”, which inspired me to go to the “about” page, so thoughtfully provided, to establish who the authors of this hit piece might be.

    (Excerpted extensively, in consideration of His Benevolent majesty’s badwidth. All emphasis is mine, other than names and titles.)

    The WantToKnow.info Team

    Index of Key Team Members:

    Kristina Borjesson – As an investigative reporter and independent producer for more than twenty years, Kristina Borjesson has worked at a variety of top media agencies including CBS network, where she won an Emmy and a Murrow Award for her investigative reporting on “CBS Reports: Legacy of Shame” with Dan Rather and Randall Pinkston. She currently produces and co-hosts the Expert Witness Radio Show on WBAI in New York City. In the past, she has worked for CBS, CNN, and PBS covering a rich variety of topics including the TWA flight 800 disaster, Haiti, Fidel Castro, and crocodiles.

    Fred Burks – Before resigning from the US State Department in 2004 due to excessive secrecy demands, {well, that ’bout covers that issue . . }

    After receiving a wealth of eye-opening information on major cover-ups from a number of respected friends and colleagues, Fred was inspired to develop this website in October 2002. Continually opening to divine guidance, Fred has dedicated himself both to getting the word out about the cover-ups, and to inspiring others to help transform ourselves and our world through love and empowerment. He is currently the manager and coordinator of WantToKnow.info.

    Fred has also helped develop and foster several inspiring communities and websites, including Moment of Love and Global Community for All.

    Norma Carr-Ruffino
    , PhD – For the past 30 years Prof. Carr-Ruffino has devoted more and more time and energy to reconnecting with the her soul and spirit—and to sharing her insights in seminars and books. In recent years, she’s learned about major cover-ups of which few are aware, and has had a growing need to know just what our government has been doing in our name. Her pattern these days is “find the truth no matter how disturbing.”

    Steven M. Greer, MD – A lifetime member of Alpha Omega Alpha, the nation’s most prestigious medical honor society, Dr. Greer is the Founder and Director of the Disclosure Project. He is also an emergency physician and former chairman of the Department of Emergency Medicine at a hospital in North Carolina. {Ok, maybe a normal intellegent hominid}

    On May 9, 2001, as Director of The Disclosure Project, Dr. Greer presided over The Disclosure Project Press Conference, held at the highly esteemed National Press Club in Washington, DC. At this landmark event, over twenty military, government, intelligence, and corporate witnesses presented compelling testimony of their personal experiences regarding the existence of extra-terrestrial life forms visiting the planet. {Alright, mayhaps judged sane too early}

    David Ray Griffin, PhDEmeritus professor of philosophy of religion and theology, Dr. Griffin is the author or editor of over 20 books, many of them highly acclaimed. He is one of 60 scholars worldwide included in the most recent Handbook of Christian Theologians. {Ok, Good, a religious man.} After learning of numerous facts that seem to contradict the official account of 9/11, Dr. Griffin turned his attention to this subject and wrote the landmark book, The New Pearl Harbor. {Well, back to moonbat} Although largely ignored by the mainstream media {now, wonder why that was?}, this highly revealing book has been widely read and translated into many other languages.

    {This apparently was the actual Author of this tripe, BTW}

    The rest of the “About” page continues with more conspiracy theorists.

    Dave, you were doing better with the New York Times as a source, IMHO.

    But that’s just me.

    I’ll finish reading yer silly “report”, but just because it’s been a bitch of a day, and i need a good laugh.

  142. DJ Allyn,  ITW Comment by DJ Allyn, ITW

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    Dayum! Time to, like, MOVE, ya think? Even in that Audi, that’s gotta be at least 6 gallons each way.

    Usually, I fly. Besides, I am on the verge of buying a Prius. (I hear they can go 105 mph! :lol: )

    I have started to read it, but about two paragraphs in, I was struck with the thought “Whothefuckarethesepeople?”, which inspired me to go to the “about” page, so thoughtfully provided, to establish who the authors of this hit piece might be.

    Yeah, I didn’t bother myself — I already suspected that they might not be sympathetic to BushCo et al. But that wasn’t my reason for finding it interesting.

    I found it interesting because it listed sourced links to more mainstream publications that I intend to read when I get home.

    Don’t worry, I am not going to simply take what I am reading there for gospel. It is just a starting point, that’s all.

    What I find interesting is our ‘mainstream news media’ has no problem investigating groups that swear they’ve seen Elvis, or think that Kennedy was killed by aliens or something, but when it comes to discussing (or even trying to debunk) a fairly large group of people who think 9/11 was a set-up, they won’t touch it.

    And no, I am not one of those people. Are you kidding? This administration has problems doing even the most simplest things, how the hell are they going to do something as complex as orchestrating 9/11? Then keeping it quiet after that?

  143. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    I sed:

    So….do the deaths of 3000 innocent men WOMEN and CHILDREN on 9/11 at the hands of these islamonazis, and a 30 year record of slaughtering innocents in terrorist acts give US a legitimate beef with them? just applying your standards to the situation

    DJ replied:

    As long as you don’t lash out at the wrong target, Jay.

    You mean wrong targets like civilians in skyscrapers and markets and trapped in airliners and cruise ships and buses and subway trains and such??? Wrong targets like those?

    Wake up Jay! Wolfowitz, Cheney, Kristol, et al had been planning this entire scenario all the way back in the early 1990s. It’s all laid out in black and white in their working papers.

    You forgot to mention the eeevil Rove mwahahahaaaa. Dave, don’t forget, Cheney was secretary of Defense under Bush Sr. Of course he would put together a strategy for the occupation of Iraq. We went to war with them in 1991 remember? We should have gone all the way and kicked out saddam back then, but we cowtowed to the UN and the democrat controlled congress and stopped when the iraqi army withdrew from Kuwait.

    Our government could care less if Saddam brutalized his citizens or not.

    Nor could the left in this country….they’re too concerned with our torturing prisoners by giving them three hots (culturally prepared) a cot and panties for their heads.

    he general attitude here is that we have been going along, minding our own business, and suddenly, we suffer an unprovoked attack.

    That is what MOST people felt — we didn’t do anything, and they attacked us for nothing.

    The reality is, we have been doing shit for decades and as oblivious people going about our everyday lives, we paid little or no attention to it. Most people couldn’t point out the Middle East on a map, nor did they care. They knew a lot of our oil came from there, but other than that, zilch. As long as they can fuel up their gas guzzlers, nobody cares.

    Let me ask you a rhetorical question here. You are saying that the islamonazi terrorists and specifically the 19 hijackers of 9/11 had legitimate gripes against our government right? justified by their perception of U.S. abuses against their people and sovereignty for decades right?…..Would you give Timothy McVeigh the same consideration? He acted on what he perceived as governmental abuse of our sovereignty. Is he also a poor misunderstood victim? lashing out at an unfair totalitarian system?

    I say McVeigh got exactly what he earned, just as I say that these islamonazis are getting their just desserts too. This war doesn’t end with the death of bin laden Dave, he is only one general in the enemy’s army.

    Meanwhile, I am going to drive my usual 196 mile commute home…

    Watch yourself out there man, stay out of the way of the idiot drivers….we want you home safely so you can debate another day.

  144. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Usually, I fly. Besides, I am on the verge of buying a Prius. (I hear they can go 105 mph! :lol: )

    Downhill in a hurricane . . .

    Consider, just for shits and giggles, what does a Prius that hits anything more substantial than, say, an ice cube, at 105 (154 feet per second) looks like about 10 seconds post impact?

    Let me give you a hint; Cleanup is done with a broom and sponge.

  145. CiSSnarl5.7 Comment by CiSSnarl5.7

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    Blame America First Dave…you really should change your Sceen name.

    I’m so sick of Liberals like you trotting out the mysterious “look at all the shit we pulled on those people”

    We Interefred in Iran in 1953! is the next seque in your argument correct?

    Never for a second stopping to figure out that had we allowed the Soviet Union to controll not only the Oil in Iran but her people as well it would of been carnage.

    The Communists of the Soviet Union of the 1940’s and 50’s aren’t exactly noted for thier humane treatment of the people they ruled. Are they Dave? Nikoly(sp) Kruschev ring a bell there?

    But nope we opposed a “democraticly elected” prime minister because he was leaning toward Uncle Joe Stalin…ever stop to think WHY he was leaning toward the Soviet Union Dave? Nope probably not.

    He was leaning toward the Soviet Union because it is belived that the Soviet intel had twice as many people in Iran then our own CIA ever dreamnt of. That the so called democratic election had been rigged to put a pro soviet PM in office. That it was the BRITISH that drove the whole fucking mess off the cliff? Read the fucking history of it before you start pointing your little fingers at the boogey man in the US

    As far as for the mysterious other “look what we did and repercussions of our actions” tripe spare me the theater will you?

    Did you ever stop to consider that had it not been for American knowhow and American help these people over here would still be sitting on thier asses watching thier flocks of goats with a twinkle in thier eyes? Utter oblivious to the oil under thier feet? Less than 100 years ago they utterly IGNORED the oil under the sand it was useless to them they were nomads.
    It’s rumored that 30% of the oil producing nations of OPEC would be sucking up sand instead of oil within the next 30 years without the advent of America teaching the OPEC members the benifits of water injection drilling to amximize thier production. What’s the ripple effect of that Dave? Hmmm? We deserve to be bombed into obvlion for helping them continue the extravagant life styles they have only in the last 40 years or so become accustomed to?

    Do you know that every Kuwait born male in this country is INTITLED to an interst free loan to build his first home? Take a SWAG at how much that loan is?
    70,000 Kuwait Dinars at 3.49 dollars per Dinar that’s some serious jingle to start your new life away from Mom and Dad eh? In fact, gee that would PAY for my home and land in NE TN…all of it.
    Know WHY the Kuwait government can do this ? American money invested over Decades that has made this one of the most powerfull economies in the ME.

    There is not one recorded moment in history that we stole any nations oil, we’ve paid for every drop of it in cash, blood, and having our economy hinged on a roller coaster ride due to the whims of these people for years.

    As I stated in my post above there is no counter balance to any of the percieved atrocities we committed over here, and I just sat back and let you prove your utter ignorance of anything to do with the ME and the US.

    Let me let you in on a little secret Dave, every day I walk by a building that has pock marked bullet holes in the walls of it. Do you know where those bullet holes come from Dave? It was where the Kuwaiti Military members were EXECUTED..simply because they were Kuwaiti military members when Iraq invaded. There was no trial there was no UN there was simply dead people. But America didn’t put a stop to that did she? Nope never happened. Or wait let me reverse myself here, It was ONLY because of the oil here that we interceded. Yep thats the ticket.

    Wasn’t one American governmental dollar over here for rebuilding after Saddam devasted this country was there Dave? Wasn’t any US taxpayer involvment in cleaning up the ecological disaster he left behind was there? We’re not still pouring millions into this place are we?
    We’re so god damned sensitive that our own troops sitting in this oven over here aren’t allowed to be in public thier confined to the bases lest we “offend” our Kuwaiti hosts. How’s that for EVIL american influence Dave?

    We never did anyhting like ..mmmhmm maybe help them build a state of the art hydro electric generating plant and turn Salt water into usable drinking water for millions of Kuwaiti citizens? Mmm funnny I used to drive by that plant every day.

    We aren’t right now at this minute engaged with pyschotic fucks in Iraq, PROTECTING Iraqi’s from them, are we? We don’t have a single troop on the Kuwaiti border watching endlessly for the next Jihadi trying to get into Kuwait…nope.

    We offered AID to a fucking sworn enemy of the US after a magnitude 8 plus earth quake struck Bam and damn destroyed it…look it up, just happened less than 5 years ago, but that doesn’t count does it?

    We never sent these people anything good only bombs and death, so we could take thier oil from them right Dave? Evil America.

    Ever been to Bahraine Dave? I have, half a dozen times since 1990, in that 17 years Bahraine has gone from a patch of sand in the Arabian gulf to a booming thriving country, and guess what Dave, they don’t have a problem with America half as much as you do.

    Ever notice that places like Bahraine and Kuwait seem to never get hit by terrorists all that much? Gee wonder why, after all thier host to none other then the Great Satan…maybe it’s because we’ve spent untold millions of dollars teaching thier security services how to defend against it, how to deal with terroist in thier own back yard. Contrast that to Saudis and the withdrawl of US military to appease the Jihadis..gee go figure Saudi saw a 50% increase in terror activity immediatly afterwards.

    Think about it. Because until you do you ain’t seeing any where near the big picture you so studiously claim to see, you’re seeing a single picture in a collage of billions of them.

  146. psychochick Comment by psychochick

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    Snarl
    I have a minor point from your earlier post, since I didn’t know what BDS was. It is entirely possible to passionately hate Bush and still rationally analyze the war. At least it is for me, although it’s hard to figure out exactly what’s going on from back here, if you don’t have military connections. I don’t see why you don’t think it’s possible to intellectually separate a view of Bush from a view of the war. (but then I analyze data for a living)

    Love your posts–fascinating

    Wil
    I have a minor comment about McVeigh. He got what he deserved, but I wish they had waited until the lead FBI investigator was done questioning him. (have no idea where I read that)

  147. SoCalOilMan, LC Comment by SoCalOilMan, LC

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    PC

    I have a minor point from your earlier post, since I didn’t know what BDS was. It is entirely possible to passionately hate Bush and still rationally analyze the war.

    The two easy signs of BDS to look for are when your talking to someone and 1)They say that Bush is is biggest idiot in the world followed immediately by how he managed to pull off the most diabolical scheme ever, or 2) no matter how reasonable the position of the White House on any problem, they’re going to oppose it…just because.

    For those that take this view, there is nothing that this administration could do that would be acceptable. You are not in this group or you wouldn’t be here seeking another side of the arguments. You may not agree, but at least you ask and you listen, then you’re still free to state your opinion here.

  148. LC Wil Comment by LC Wil

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    Psycochick:

    Wil
    I have a minor comment about McVeigh. He got what he deserved, but I wish they had waited until the lead FBI investigator was done questioning him. (have no idea where I read that)

    I believe that was our friend Jaybear talking about McVeigh, but personally, I think he got off easy. He should have been brought to the brink of a painful death 166 times and revived for another round before finally being allowed to “pass”. I was under the impression that the questioning was well past any substansive info from him, and all that was happening was a general “fishing expedition” line of questioning.

  149. CiSSnarl5.7 Comment by CiSSnarl5.7

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    PC,

    have a minor point from your earlier post, since I didn’t know what BDS was. It is entirely possible to passionately hate Bush and still rationally analyze the war. At least it is for me, although it’s hard to figure out exactly what’s going on from back here, if you don’t have military connections. I don’t see why you don’t think it’s possible to intellectually separate a view of Bush from a view of the war. (but then I analyze data for a living)

    Bashing Dave and accusing him of BDS is a somewhat cheap shot it was more meant to rankle him then anything else but Dave is a tough one to rile up.

    As far as what else you said….
    To be frank, I don’t understand how anyone (The left)can hate something and still be even semi-analytical about it, I must of fell asleep in the part of school.

    Hate is the strongest of terms and as much as I dis-agree with the Klintoon years I don’t hate the man, I vehemently oppose his vision, and I do Dispise his wife as well, as I feel they are charletans and liars of the highest order, thier soft socialism agenda nauseates me, but the hatered by the left as displayed towards Bush now is like nothing I have ever seen in my 40 years.

    Not hating the AK redneck mafia mistress and her goomba husband, allows me to sometimes step back and even if a bit grudingly admit there were good things in the Slick Willy years that happened for the US, I.E. his continuation of the policy of trying to get the welfare roles down, and making people more self sufficent,and the budegt surplus, although I was getting raped on taxes, it was good for the country I thought. Do I think Shillary will be able to pull the same rabitt out of the hat if elected, No I don’t. I think She’s way out of the mainstream, her vision far too left to be good for the country. But hate her? What’s to hate? She’s a mere mortal and she’s posed no real threat to me or my loved ones..

    To me “Hate” is something almost muderous, you hate some one, there is no “levels” of hate. “I hate you! Well… maybe only a little”, how’s that work?

    You hate someone and that pretty much means you want them assuming room temp and being measured for a pine box…guess that’s why I can’t be a liberal I’m all or nothing, black and white and there ain’t a whole lot of *Ahem* “Nuance” in my life…

    You hate Bush..how can that NOT negativly color your judgement of his policies and by extension allow you to anaylize the war in a rational light? The war in Iraq, and Afghanistain are part of his policies, you can’t even begin to see them in a impartial light when your blinded by hate of the man that enacted those policies….That dog don’t hunt as we say in TN.

    Thanks for your kind words, remember contrary to leftist rhetoric, not all civilian contractors in the ME are money grubing warmongering mercanaries, and I rather tend to think I’m doing a lot more to support our troops then slapping a silly yellow ribbon on my car….most here at the ‘Rot know a bit of what I do, for security reasons I don’t say much about it. But just consider me your eyes in the ME, I live here, and I feel that lets me provide somewhat deeper personal insight to actual happenings here at least in Kuwait, then what a lot in the US have access to via media be it MSM or grassroots. Obvioulsy as you can tell I have my own feelings and ideals about this place, so anything I say unless from a purely historical standpoint, it’s going to be from my own personal outlook on things.

  150. jaybear Comment by jaybear

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    Psychochick and Wil,

    I believe that was our friend Jaybear talking about McVeigh, but personally, I think he got off easy. He should have been brought to the brink of a painful death 166 times and revived for another round before finally being allowed to “pass”. I was under the impression that the questioning was well past any substansive info from him, and all that was happening was a general “fishing expedition” line of questioning.

    Yeah I agree that he got off too easy, and you can call me a conspiracy nut for what I’m about to say, but I think he was dispatched rather quickly given how the appeals process bureaucracy works in this country. It just seems that someone wanted him silenced…….
    (cue the twilight zone music)

  151. LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech Comment by LC Cheapshot911, Dept. of Redneck Tech

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    The last time Dave said

    Iraq didn’t attack us on 9/11.

    I said, “And and adolph hitler had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor”

    Wherein Dave made a case for war with hitler, which actually made my intellectually elusive point;

    saddam had nothing to do with 911 per se, but there was a loud, bloody case for the war on terror, and in obeying international law, we, and some friends invaded Iraq.

    But the left is obsessed with that stupid statement.

    Now the left (and Dave) lie continually about the war’s legitimacy even in the face of these piles of un evidence otherwise,,as a strategic distraction from their totally vacant planning room.

    ‘Heard it here recently,,some jokes just write themselves.