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Maybe You Shouldn’t Have Started It, Then?
Posted by: Emperor Misha I in Russia, The Long War11:03 PM
Looks like the situation between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia is deteriorating rapidly. Recently, after having their arses thoroughly whipped by Russia, Georgia “surprisingly” asked for a ceasefire.
Georgia’s President Mikhail Saakashvili proposed a cease-fire Saturday. As part of his proposal, Georgian troops were pulled out of Tskhinvali and had been ordered to stop responding to Russian shelling, said Alexander Lomaia, secretary of his Security Council.
Not that we have a dog in this fight, because we don’t, but maybe President Saakashvili should’ve thought of that before he tried to utilize everybody’s eyes being on Beijing as a convenient time to launch a full-out military offensive into South Ossetia?
A bit of history here, and please correct us if we’ve gotten it all wrong: South Ossetia is a province of Georgia that didn’t want to be part of Georgia anymore, so they held a referendum in ‘92 to secede. The results weren’t recognized, so they did it again in 2006, this time with observers from all over the world. 95% turned out to vote and 99% voted in favor of seceding. Now, we may be a simple Emperor, but those numbers seem to be somewhat indicative of the locals being quite determined to break ties with the old guard and set up shop on their own.
But the Georgian government didn’t see it that way, and fighting and conflict has gone on ever since, more or less under the radar until yesterday, when Georgian President Saakashvili decided to use the opening of the Olympics to retake South Ossetia while nobody was looking. Unfortunately for him, his invasion managed to kill a number of Russian peacekeepers, and Russia doesn’t take too kindly to her nationals being killed while abroad. Big mistake. So Russia responded by shelling the everloving shit out of the Georgians and now Saakashvili is all of a sudden very interested in peace and quiet.
Imagine our surprise.
The real problem for us here, meaning the U.S., is that Georgia is a staunch ally of ours in The Long War, so we really can’t just sit back and say “mess with the bull, get the horns” to the Georgians, even though that seems, to His Imperial Majesty, to be the most reasonable response here. You don’t bomb the snot out of somebody and kill their nationals, then come crying for mama when the ones you bombed bomb you right back. At least not in our book.
Hopefully everybody will come to their senses shortly, particularly the Georgians. They might want to take a look at whatever is left of Grozny if their memories about what might happen otherwise fail them. Also, not coming down on either side here, but it seems a bit retarded to us that the Georgians insist on keeping South Ossetia when the population there obviously can’t stand their guts and want absolutely no part of them. We mean, when 99% of the population tell you to go get bent, maybe cutting your losses by cutting them off and leaving them alone is a good idea? Just sayin’, ’s all.
And if you’re a small nation, it seems utterly daft to us to pick a fight with Russia of all places over a minor chunk of real estate inhabited by hostiles. That has to be one heck of a parcel of dirt to risk having all of your cities reduced to smoking rubble over.
P.S.: You should check out the comments over at Hot Air, where the knee-jerk Russian-hating is out in full force. If only those dorks would devote half as much time to hating on the actual communists of Beijing whose cranks this nation has been sucking on since time immemorial, they might come to realize that they’re a bunch of hypocritical fuckwads. But, then again, it might interfere with their worship of the amazing display of propaganda put on by the Tiananmen butchers called the “Olympics”, and that would never do.
Again, I ask you: Who started the conflict Friday by invading South Ossetia? Hint: it wasn’t the Russians.
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didn’t the russians unilaterally issue all those people russian passports? sounds like they were laying the groundwork, and probably encouraging the population to secede to fuck up the west’s plans with the pipeline. I feel it is not unlike the Mexican government issuing identification cards to all the messicans, and perhaps one day they will have enough heads to have a vote here in California and say they don’t want to be a part of the United States any more.
August 9th, 2008 at 11:22 PMUsing
but yeah, it WAS stupid for the Georgians to start shit, knowing what would inevitably happen in response.
August 9th, 2008 at 11:23 PMUsing
Aussie Knife Violence is out of control!!!
August 9th, 2008 at 11:27 PMUsing
I don’t know about that. Only thing I do know is that the 15 Russians killed during Georgia’s initial invasion yesterday were very much Russian nationals, through and through. Heck, if I were President and some fuckwit nation decided to murder 15 of our nationals, I’d throw the book at that nation too, and I don’t mean diplomatic notes of stern concern either. Example: If I’d been President instead of Billy Jeff, the Yemenis would be relying on sifting through the rubble of Aden for food about 48 hours after the bombing of the USS Cole. Whatever Yemenis might be left after my initial response, that is.
No matter what the background: The moment you fail to respond immediately and forcefully to violence against your citizens, you’re painting big, glowing, fluorescent bullseyes on the backs of all of them.
August 9th, 2008 at 11:29 PMUsing
Actually, here’s a better example since it can be argued, at least it could be argued at the time that the Yemenis had nothing to do with it, think about Mogadishu. Again, if I’d been President at the time, we wouldn’t be talking about the problems in Somalia today, because there wouldn’t be a Somalia to talk about.
August 9th, 2008 at 11:33 PMUsing
Bombing Somalia back to the stone age might actually be an improvement. It’d advance the country by at least two centuries.
August 10th, 2008 at 12:16 AMUsing
speaking of crossing borders:
Mexico: Fill Up, Pay Up
Mexican border city begins fining American drivers who cross the border to fill up extra tanks or barrels with fuel
right, but filling our fucking country will YOUR citizens is just OK? May i suggest we fine Mexico for each and every Mexican illegal, as well as all the Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, Guatemalans, that they allowed to pass through their country on their way to ours?
August 10th, 2008 at 12:38 AMUsing
The Russians deliberately stirred this shit up here.
That being said, It may have been smarter to let the ethnic Russians living in Ossetia secede.
The problem, of course, is that Putin can gobble up former parts of the “Near Abroad” one province at a time this way.
Just move Russians in, and start a secession movement.
When in doubt, assume the Russians are being more thn a bit underhanded.
August 10th, 2008 at 12:42 AMUsing
This one could turn out quite nasty. The Russian military may be big and bad, but it has a bum knee and crossed eyes. The Russians are hurting just bad enough to turn this all into a real bad Attrition style war ala Chechnya or Soviet/Afghan War.
August 10th, 2008 at 2:38 AMUsing
The Whole World's Gone to Hell, But How Are You?…
Washington Times
First, the US may soon send troops into the out-of-control tribal areas of Pakistan:
…
August 10th, 2008 at 2:59 AMUsing Unknown browser
I think given their history it is a natural reaction to hear something like this and think “Russia started it”.
And given the media coverage (not one report on our tv stations that I have seen has mentioned anything about the attack on Friday), it would appear that nobody in the media is really bothering to look at the facts.
I’ll be you are all as shocked as I am about that…
August 10th, 2008 at 5:18 AMUsing
[...] has a more nuanced view of the Georgian conflict than you’ll get most [...]
August 10th, 2008 at 8:21 AMUsing
I’m always amazed at the turnout numbers for elections in other parts of the world. Guess it makes sense when you consider the people casting those votes personally or at least their parents personally remember not having that right. When we look at our “historically high turnouts” it’s <30 % on the other hand considering how uninformed and misinformed the general population is perhaps that’s a good thing.
August 10th, 2008 at 8:21 AMUsing
I was also under the the impression Sir Christopher was, that Russia was being pretty underhanded about this by giving many “ethnic” Russians living in South O. citizen ship. Pretty convenient for when it comes time to annex the state into the Motherland to claim that your citizens already live there. And if, lets say Texas or Florida decided to secede, and Mexico or Cuba put “peacekeepers” there, still not sure how or why they would have any ground to stand on if a conflict between D.C. and the states caused those “peacekeepers” O2 to CO2 conversion process to suddenly stop.
Just my .02
August 10th, 2008 at 8:54 AMUsing
Seems this has more to do with oil than territory. Nevertheless, Russia seeded the area with their people and arguably must defend them. It’s kinda hard to demonize them when we used the same tactic to acquire Texas. The Mexicans learned the lesson and will attempt the same thing, in time. They are already seeding the nation with their nationals.
August 10th, 2008 at 9:00 AMUsing
Dear Emperer & co,
This is probably the first time i seriously disagree with your judgement..
Do you really think that georgia went up against russia for fun? I will not go into the wole question regarding te right to seceding (but from what I’ve learned, the region in question has in fact less then 2% russians), as that is a pretty big question from what I’ve read so far. But, georgia did not go into the region for fun, that is for sure. The russians have aided “separatists” actions in this area for a long time, and through some miracle, the russians just happened to have amassed troops and entire tank divisions right across the border in the last few weeks, right before this happens? T
his whole event is definitly staged by putin & co, and servers as a warning not only for georgia, but for ukraine, the baltic states (which incidently has a larger native russian pop. then georgia does..). It also scares the shit of eu(rinals in suits), since the pipeline through georgia is the only(!) one we have here that is not controlled by putin & co…
Let us also not forget georgia is trained and equipped by US, in fact early rumours said US military staff was in the bombed airport. unconfirmed still. Georgia was indeed on its way to full NATO membership (article 5 anyone?), but germany (under heavy russian pressure) stalled it.
do i think it was smart to go up against russia? no. Do i think russia has staged the whole thing (sudeten germans anyone?)? hell yes.
August 10th, 2008 at 9:52 AMUsing
Lemme see if I have this right:
Ossetia wanted to secede, and Georgia said no. Russia basically said that Georgia can’t prevent Ossetia from seceding cause a bunch of Russians live there, so Russia is in charge.
This from the country that basically “kidnapped” the Baltics and then refused to let THEM secede without a war.
There’s far more to this, I have no doubt.
August 10th, 2008 at 10:03 AMUsing
Right you are Offsetter. B.O. and Mcsheiss are going to give them the vote and then it’s over for us.
August 10th, 2008 at 10:15 AMUsing
OOps! Some fool stuck a pin in a dragon and got flamed!
Nevermind that is probably what the cunning and malevolent
August 10th, 2008 at 11:15 AMcreature had been working for.
Using
When a simple majority of Hispanic-Americans vote to have Texas secede from the Union and join Mexico I wonder what Meisha will do then. I’m thinking learning Espanol will not be one of his choices.
And if anyone thinks that the Russians can mobilize a Motorized Rifle Regiment and cross a border less than 24 hours after Georgia moved I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
The Russians have been stirring the shit there since the break-up and no national leader is going to let them establish themselves in a manner that nearly splits his country. Meisha wants them to bend over and thank Ivan for shoving it up their ass. This gives the Russians a pass through the Caucasus Mountain.
It was the Soviets in Georgia that made NATO accept Turkey. Because once you get south of that mountain range it’s good tank country all the way to the Cape.
Nice to know so many people have a sense of history./sarc.
August 10th, 2008 at 11:17 AMUsing
Wild Bill
our first American revolution only had about 30% of the population supporting it.
Duncan
been there, done that. didn’t work out to good. but we still dream.
August 10th, 2008 at 11:51 AMUsing
After years of neglect on my part, Russia has popped up on the radar screen again.
Over the last six months with Putin “stepping down” and the actions of Gazprom, I’ve been getting those old twinges again.
I kinda find it hard to believe that Russia is willing to commit it’s military, lives and money to an independent
August 10th, 2008 at 12:23 PMcountrypopulation just to assure a democratic election is recognized and enforced.Using
Hiljohnny, true. And whether they had a right to secede from the Union is up for a debate, one that I think the South had actually (ofcourse, how long the South could have survived or grown outside of the Union is also up for debate).
Damn skippy Mammoth, its like gahyaz said:
They’ve been waiting for the opportunity… and it knocked.
Get ready to see Georgia get all but annexed into the Russian Federation….
August 10th, 2008 at 12:41 PMUsing
Can I make a sugestion?
Georgia cut loose South Ossetia and Russia Cut loose North Ossetia. I’m sure the UN would welcome a new member.
that way both counties lose territory and the ethnic Ossetians get what they really want. Independance from someone else telling them what to do.
Ted
August 10th, 2008 at 1:01 PMUsing
hilljohnny
Back then, if it wasn’t for cotton and tobacco, you could have left. A minor reason for the war was slavery, but I see the same seeds now with the illegal population, just in reverse. Defy the Federal laws about living wage, paying employment taxes, working hours, age…etc. Secede…just remember to pay in script and set up the Company Store.
Just watch my Kalifornia, liberal bastion of the
August 10th, 2008 at 1:05 PMworkingstate dependent man. We will lead the way on how to drive out the money grubbing capitalists and have everyone working for the money grubbing State in our glorious new 5 year plan.Using
Don’t you ever thought why region is called South Ossetia??? ‘Cause there live OSSETIANS, NOT i repeat NOT Georgeans. And who do you think live in NORTH OSSETIA??? And do you know where this place is??? In Russia!!! And it’s situated there for more then 200 years. Most of the people from South Ossetia have relatives in North, they are not separated, they live as in one country for all these years and now one jerk in D.C. and another jerk in Tbilisi say that in Georgia could be only one nation and it’s Georgeans. Why’s that??? Think about it, then search Russian interests in this conflict. The area of region is tiny, population 70′000 that’s not worth to fight for it.
August 10th, 2008 at 1:08 PMUsing
via Gabe at Ace’s place:
I concur with this assessment…
August 10th, 2008 at 1:31 PMUsing
mor
I haven’t seen you here before, so I want to extend my welcome to the Rott.
I will admit my ignorance of the details involved with this conflict, but I’m willing, and would like to learn more.
You are much more involved, so give us your take on the “whys and wherefore’s” of what is happening.
August 10th, 2008 at 2:20 PMUsing
I’ll miss Rott and answer
Unfortunatly, I must agree that Russian, as well as US, politics are of course are responsible for this war. But not in such a reaction on Georgians atack on Zchinvali but on whole situation, which could be predicted and stop BEFORE Saakashvili was elected. But now we have a territory on our border populated with 99% ossetians who have russian passports and wanted to live in Russia for last 14 years. About history shortly. Ossetia and Georgia parted to Russia in 19th century on the line of total destruction from Turks. They ask for help Russian tzar because they are ortodox too, as we are. Russian army went into Georgia and drove back Turks. Since then we lived together. Then in 1920s Stalin granted South Ossetia tj Georgian republic, ’cause between South and North Ossetia there are mountains and only one way to get through, and it was easier to govern this territory from Tbilisi. Then when USSR collapsed first Georgeon president Gamsahurdia proclaimed an idea of georgeon priority - “Georgia - for georgians” and tryed to push other nations from their lands. So Abhazian and Ossetian wars began. People fought for their lives not money or something…they stood and after this don’t want to be the part of such country as Georgia.
August 10th, 2008 at 3:05 PMUsing
Mor,
Thanks for some perspective from the “other side” if you will. It helps to put the whole picture together. I wonder though, on the motivations of Putin and his bunch, and how much of this Ossetian freedom, and how much is the Russian government using the Ossetian situation to make a power grab and flex muscle… especially since Russian forces continued to pound Tblisi and other cities even after the calls for a ceasefire and Georgian troops reportedly pulled out/were driven out of South Ossentia.
August 10th, 2008 at 3:24 PMUsing
Lots of new information and stuff to take into consideration. Thanks, all y’all! Best readers on the Intertubes, I tell you. Informed, intelligent and not afraid to speak your minds.
Secession: Always a thorny issue. Is it absolutely verboten or should it be always and ever allowed until every parcel on every block of every town is its own nation? I say the solution lies somewhere in between. In this particular case, I find it hard to see why it was OK for the Georgians to secede from the old Soviet Union but NOT OK in their eyes for South Ossetia to secede from them. Also, as has been pointed out by mor (and welcome to the Rott!), South Ossetia is inhabited almost entirely by people who have very little in common with Georgians and a whole lot in common with their fellow Ossetians in Russia to the North. Sounds like a classic case of somebody in the past being a bit careless when drawing boundaries on the map. At any rate: Given that the Ossetians don’t want any part of Georgia, as proven by their two referenda, given that South Ossetia is inhabited pretty much entirely by Ossetians, and given that Georgia itself seceded (justifiably, in my opinion) from the old Soviet Union, I’d say that the South Ossetians have a pretty good legal, ethical and moral case for seceding.
Whose fault is it?: There’s no doubt in my mind that more is going on here than meets the eye, we can all agree on that. However, this particular conflagration started because the Georgians attacked, not the other way around. And if you want to talk “underhanded”, then the way that Saakashvili started it is a case study on that subject. Remember, the Georgians have been wanting to bring South Ossetia back under their control since ‘92, and there has been on and off shooting going back and forth pretty much constantly. Then, just as the Olympics are about to open, Saakashvili declares a unilateral ceasefire, only to immediately complain that the South Ossetians aren’t honoring it and using that as a pretext for invading right then and there, bombarding the heck out of the Ossetians. I smell fish.
Russian involvement?: For the record, I’m no friend of Putin’s. I don’t care for the way he has managed to haul Russia back into a de facto totalitarian status. I’m also well aware that he’s a sneaky bastard not in the least above using very nasty ways to get things the way he likes them. However, I’m also aware that he has an obligation to defend Russian nationals when they’re attacked, and I’m not talking about the people who were issued Russian passports. I’m talking about the “peacekeepers” there who were killed. Were they placing them there deliberately, hoping that the Georgians would take leave of their senses and give Russia an excuse to counterattack by getting them killed? Quite possible, but it doesn’t change the fact that Russia has to defend her nationals.
The Motorized Rifle Division in the neighborhood?: Certainly something worth taking into consideration. It’s also worth taking into consideration that this is a conflict that has been going on for well over a decade and it’s quite possible that the Russians, remembering the mess in Chechnya, thought it might be a good idea to have a rapid response force in the region in case things got really ugly. Not saying that they’re innocent, nor am I saying that they’re not. Just saying. Again, Putin is definitely not the sort who is above doing just the sort of thing Russia is getting accused of, but let’s keep all the facts and possibilities in mind, shall we? Also, let’s keep the eye on the ball and recognize the situation on the ground for what it is, because that’s what we’re going to have to deal with, and quickly too before everything REALLY goes to Hell in a handbasket.
Does anybody here really want to go to war with Russia over South Ossetia? I thought not. Heck, we won’t even stare angrily at the commie Chinese when they deliberately fly into our planes, steal our equipment and hold our personnel hostage, something that is a very direct, unmistakable Act of War.
And this is where I must digress for a bit of background. Bear with me, because it’s going to be quite a novel.
I realize that everybody hates Putin. That’s fine, because so do I. Problem is, he and his cronies got where they are today because we fucked up with our miserably failed policies right after the Soviet Union went the way of the dodo. When Boris got on that tank and vowed to oust the hardline usurpers, I was watching from just West of the Iron Curtain and I was having visions of a free, rich, democratic Russia working side by side with the rest of us, just as the actual Russians had always wanted while they were slaving under the Soviet yoke. Oh boy was I ever disappointed. Instead of immediately sending aid and helping them get their new, free nation running on all cylinders (remember the Marshall Plan? Worked out pretty good for us, didn’t it?), we sent in vultures who bought up everything, sold everything that wasn’t nailed down and then hightailed it out of there when there wasn’t anything left to sell. At the same time, on the national scene, we were busy gobbling up all of their neighboring former satellite states and pulling them under our umbrella. Before anybody responds, I would like to add that I had absolutely no problem with embracing those former slave states, it was the exact right thing to do. I was just a bit mystified why the policy seemed to be “everybody come. Everybody except for Russia, that is.”
Now try to look at it with Russian eyes. Disregard completely our perfectly good and humanitarian reasons for letting all of those states join and try, instead, to put yourself in the shoes of the Russian people watching it happen all around them. Now tell me that you don’t understand why they’d be a bit resentful of that, that you don’t understand why they might be thinking “damn, they’re trying to contain us again and render us helpless. If not, then why on Earth aren’t we invited to the party?” Keep in mind that Russia is no stranger to being hemmed in and then invaded. They’ve been invaded so many times throughout the centuries that most people have lost count. And always with massive loss of life. Last time they paid with 20 million dead.
No, I’m not saying that we’ve been planning to invade Russia, that would be ridiculous, but look at it from the Russian side. There they are, suddenly free and ready to join the community of free, capitalist nations, and all they see is a big sign saying “Russians need not apply” while, at the same time, we’re sucking up so fiercely to their arch enemies, the commie Chinese, that most of us watching our disgraceful pandering to the Beijing Butchers were thinking “why don’t you guys get a room, ferchrissakes!”
Turn it around: What if it was NATO that had collapsed (perish the thought!)? What if we, here in the United States, had seen that collapse, then observed as the Warsaw Pact started letting in all of our former allies, one by one, including Canada and Mexico, while simultaneously telling us to bugger off and poking us in the eye every opportunity they got and playing kissy with Beijing? Hmm? Maybe we’d have gotten a bit angsty too then, and with good reason.
Is it any wonder to you that the Russians might have gotten a wee bit paranoid and decided that their best cause of action, just in case, is to build up their strength and put the world on notice that they’re still a force to be reckoned with? If you want peace, prepare for war. And where do you look when you seek to rebuild your nation and establish a strong presence that anybody would think twice about fucking with? A “Strong Leader” without too many scruples promising you just that, that’s where. Enter Putin, that miserable bastard.
And all of that because our Idiotarian leaders, for some unfathomably stupid reason, thought it better for us to enrich Beijing than to work with Moscow. Go figure.
To summarize: I don’t like Putin and the direction he has taken Russia in, but I sure as Heck understand him and the Russian people. I doubt that we would have acted any differently in their shoes.
/end digression.
Back to the Georgian situation: This needs to be dealt with. For one thing, we can’t very well let our Georgian ally get blown off the map, no matter how much they themselves stirred the hornets’ nest. If your buddy pisses off a grizzly while you’re out hiking, you don’t tell him to go get bent and leave him to become bear lunch either. Not to mention that if we let this crap go on, then Georgia may just be gobbled up entirely by the Russian Federation. Yes, that might be Putin’s plan from the beginning, but that’s irrelevant. What’s relevant is that we need to keep it from happening.
In my ever so wise opinion (you may laugh now), the most rational solution here would be for Georgia to cut South Ossetia loose. There really is no substantial argument why they should be forced to live under a regime of foreigners when Georgia itself was born by secession. Not to mention that if they’re cut loose, then all of a sudden this “we’re only here to protect the Ossetians” becomes a non-starter. If Russia then persists in attacking Georgia, then it’s a whole ‘nother ballgame. As it is now, it’s a bit hard for us to say, with a straight face, that it’s not OK for Russia to step in to protect civilians, no matter what their actual reasons are.
August 10th, 2008 at 3:26 PMUsing
I wonder if the Georgians would be willing to do so. Ofcourse, with Russian troops staring down the other end of a rifle, they don’t have much of a choice. And it sounds like they’ve been “crying uncle” for the past day or so while Russia continues to pound away furiously like Andrew Sullivan at a Gay Day Parade and Bath.
Your other points, sire, as always, are thought out and persuasive…
August 10th, 2008 at 3:36 PMUsing
Thanks. I don’t always succeed, but I try
The bottom line is: We have to get it stopped. Now, just as we surely don’t want to go to war with Russia over South Ossetia, it’s also true that Russia doesn’t want to go to war with us. Sure, Putin likes to rattle his saber, but that’s all that it really is. He’s doing what he’s supposed to do by talking tough to us in that he’s making it clear that Russia is tired of being a two-bit player and that they aren’t about to roll over for foreigners. That’s the job of any leader of any nation, but he sure as Hades doesn’t want a shooting war. He knows better than most what the Russian army is capable of and, just as importantly, not capable of. Besides, as I explained, this whole policy of rattling sabers and walking tall is designed to avoid war, not start one.
So we need to deal with the Russians accordingly, being very very careful that any proposals we make do not look like we’re strong-arming Russia. Putin can’t afford to lose face like that and he won’t let it happen. Best approach would be to let them know that we don’t have a problem with South Ossetia rejoining North Ossetia, they belong together historically, after all, but that we also can’t just sit idly by and let Russia bomb our ally into the stone age. In return for them letting off Georgia, we’ll strong-arm Georgia into letting South Ossetia go. That way Russia won’t look like they’re getting nothing from the deal and, more importantly, they can go home and say “we went to support the Ossetians and protect them from violence and oppression and we won.”
As to the Georgians, we need to make it abundantly clear to them that this whole 16-year-old mess with them trying to keep historically united entities separate just to show ‘em who’s boss is sub-retarded and, worse, counterproductive. They have nothing to gain and just about everything to lose from insisting on being daft. If they have a problem seeing eye-to-eye with us on that, we can always whisper “Grozny” in their ears and point to the Russian artillery emplacements outside of town. We also need to let them know that, even though we won’t let the Russians take over Georgia entirely, they’re the ones who poked a big fat stick into the hornets’ nest on Friday and that we’ll be damned if we’ll start World War IV with the Russians over South Ossetia. If that’s too harsh, we can always sweeten the deal with some aid packages, contracts, whatever to soften the “blow” of losing a province that they had no right to lord it over in the first place.
Everybody goes away with something, peace is secured and Tblisi avoids becoming a rubble heap.
August 10th, 2008 at 4:03 PMUsing
Misha
You are the Emperor, and posts like this show why.
Mor
You’re post post was most enlightening. (I had to mention the Emperor first because…well he is the Emperor). Continue to post and hold your own around here. We need information from every perspective, and look how you made us step back and see it from the other side. You may get flack here from time to time, but it happens to all.
On topic for real:
Where the hell did they come up with all the borders in Europe and the Middle East? O.K., the ME was drawn up by Britain and France (politically) as they surrendered their Empires, but I thought Europe was decided by history, ethnic and cultural things. Guess I was teeched wrong.
I’m of the opinion that every state in the world should vote on who they belong to. Just not you Southerner’s, it’s football season and we need the Cowgirls, Tampa Bay Chokes, the Aint’s and all those woosy-ass teams to be in the NFL so my Raiders don’t look so bad.
August 10th, 2008 at 4:15 PMUsing
Emperor Misha I : you are quite right (sorry for mistakes
) about gessing our fillings about NATO. Things got worse after Yugoslavia was crashed by NATO, were no excuses for ones and forgiveness for others showed us that if you’r weak than no one’ll talk to you, they’ll just bomb you and that’s it. I’m not lover of Putin, but unfortunatly we have no significant alternative 
. Yes we live now in so called ‘ruled democracy’ :em41: but thats not the case… The problem is in possibility of using Georgia by US as a base for antimissle system, which will then be on all our borders where back strike could be made. In this situation US could become the only country that would dictate the whole World their interests and they are of corse in gathering resources. Look what’s happening: 1) Afganistan - key country in the region (Pakistan, Iran, China, India) 2) Iraq - second key key country in oil region 3)Iran and again huge amount of gas and oil and 4)Polish-Chechz anti rockets, Ukrain going in NATO, Georgia going in NATO. We are surrounded by US or its allies which want cheap oil, gas, metalls, and all of this is present in Siberia with low population and which could be gained if your just slice huge country on parts.
And about why NOW Georgia started this. In November there’ll be a sammit on which Georgia should be involved in a NATO membership process. But no countries with territory problems allowed. Second there’ll be elections in US, and no one nows how new admin in Washington will deal with Saakashvili.
August 10th, 2008 at 4:18 PMUsing
Ohh yes and about why our tanks came so fast. I think that they came too late!!! They only after 14 hours, they waited the president to take dissision, after he made they were there in 2 hours. After Chechen war the 58th army is the quick reaction force in a region. Don’t forget that the distances are short there. The whole Georgia could be crossed in 5-6 hours, and South Ossetia is in fact just one city and few villages that could be cross in 1.5 hours easiely
August 10th, 2008 at 4:26 PMUsing
Thanks for the added information, mor, I can’t begin to tell you how much it’s appreciated, particularly seeing as how our “beloved” Main Stream Media over here only seem to want to give us one side of this story.
I am also, obviously, quite pleased to see that I’m correct in my analysis. Yes, I like to pat myself on the back occasionally :-), it’s nice to see that The Old Skills haven’t quite rusted all the way to Hell. I very much suspected that the 58th would be a rapid reaction force and ready to deploy considering the horrible trouble back during the Chechnyan War, it would seem the logical thing to do to keep stuff like that from happening again, which is why I wasn’t all that surprised by them being in South Ossetia in a matter of hours.
As far as our containment policies and their effects go… Well I’m pleased that I’m right, but I’m also not pleased that I’m right, if you know what I mean. It’s a really deplorable situation and I wish we hadn’t made it happen. Now, I can say in all honesty without a bit of doubt in my mind that we have absolutely no designs on or plots to take Russia’s resources by force, but that’s how it is now. Who’s to say what some future administration of ours decides to do? We’ve had some pretty fucked up leaders in the past and I can’t guarantee that we’ll never have another one, so even though I can ASSURE you that the United States right now has absolutely no plans to mess with Russian sovereignty or her resources, we’re just setting up defense systems and we’re plenty busy dealing with The Long War against Terrorism and Islamic Fundamentalists, I also fully understand why Russia is concerned about the situation and what might happen in the future. It would be foolish in the extreme to NOT try to plan for all contingencies, even when they seem to be far-fetched at the moment.
Which brings me back to my original point about our stupid post-Soviet policies. The bloody ragheaded terrorists aside, the only significant REAL enemy of ours to remain after the Soviet Union collapsed was communist China. And whaddaya know, communist China is ALSO an enemy of Russia’s.
Maybe I’m dumb here, but it seems to ME that our LOGICAL response to the dissolution of the Soviet Union would have been to load up a lot of bourbon and send our top people to Moscow for a meeting, bourbon, zakuski, vodka and all, and said “great news, friends. Only one enemy left, so why don’t WE get together and put an end to them, once and for all?”
We could have created the strongest alliance this world has ever seen, and the commie bitches of Beijing would have had no choice but to bend over and say “please be gentle with us.” Not only that, together we’d have had access to more resources than we could ever use, Russia would have had a booming economy that we’d help build up (more rich, free, democratic friends means more markets for us to sell stuff in) and there wouldn’t be all this nonsense of us building defensive networks all around Russia and looking at each other with suspicion and fear. We’d be building the stuff all around China instead. Together.
Seriously. I remember when we started letting in new nations in NATO. My first response was “great idea, but why the Heck aren’t we letting Russia in as well?”
We didn’t have any problems letting in formerly Nazi West Germany, did we? So tell me again why we were kinder to the formerly Nazi Germans than we were to the formerly Soviet Russians?
Doesn’t make sense to me.
A well… A guy can dream, can’t he?
August 10th, 2008 at 4:53 PMUsing
About mass media - try RT (Russia Today) that’s our point of view
About China - you’r late - they are our best friends now. We sell them arms and cosmos technologies. You think they made spacecrafts themselves??!! All the tension between Russia and China were solved and now no borders between our friendship :em38:
August 10th, 2008 at 5:23 PMAnd about US strugle against terrorists… Why fighting them in one place and supporting them in another?
Kosovo - the biggest ISLAMIC TERRORIST base in the middle of Europe. Did you know, that Albanians never lived in Kosovo!!! It was Serbian place of sorrow and religious center. In 1389 the whole Serbian nation fought for life against Turks and lost, but with hounor killing Turkish sultan Murad. And only in 1950s albanians fleeing from poverty of communist Albania. They were taken as guests, that then declared themselves as the only nation that can leave in Kosovo. Fact of Albanian genocide by Serbs were faked and slaughter of Serbs by Albanians silented as Karla Del Ponte confessed. In my opinion US sets a hot point on Europes map to keep Europe in some nerveous state for easier manipulation.
Using
That squishy pop you just heard was the implosion of leftist foreign policy advisors skulls that couldn’t take the pressure of the singulary of logic you just emitted in their sphere of influence.
August 10th, 2008 at 5:28 PMUsing
I know… We missed the train on that one.
It’s enough to make you cry.
August 10th, 2008 at 5:34 PMUsing
Somehow I’m affraid of US more than of China, sorry. China have to many internal problems to make problems (millitary) to us. And US is unpredictible. Who knows whom you’ll bomb next? May be it’ll be East Ukrain where my father came from?! May be some terrorists US’ll find in Mongolia, or on Baikal lake in Russia?! Who knows??
August 10th, 2008 at 6:08 PMUsing
You really need not worry about that, mor.
For one thing, we don’t have any need to do so and, more importantly, we don’t have a desire to get involved in a war with a huge nation like Russia. Also, and this is a compliment, when it comes to dealing with terrorist scum, you’re a whole lot more, shall we say, “efficient” than we are, so if any were to start operating within your borders, I have full confidence that Spetznaz would take care of it right quick.
No endless detainments or “trying to understand their grievances” where you’re concerned. You just take out the trash the way it ought to be done. No muss, no fuss, and lots of dead terrorists. Just the way I like it.
August 10th, 2008 at 6:14 PMUsing
OK
I’m glad that found such interesting company here. See you later.
August 10th, 2008 at 6:29 PMUsing
Unfortunately, Mor (welcome, by the way!) that unpredictablity you say we have will be considerably more apparent when or if Obama becomes our next President. You can bet there are a large number here working to ensure that doesn’t happen. We aren’t likely to bomb as indiscriminately as you fear, at least not now. Anything found in China, you can comfortably bet the Chinese will handle it. The Ukraine? that would likely be an internal matter, especially since the Ukrainian government is on friendly terms with us. Look- the reason we went to Afghanistan wasn’t to make you fear us, it was because the then-current Taliban had supplied al-Quida with a safe base to work from. It took us three months to come to the conclusion that the Taliban government wasn’t going to come to terms with what couldn’t be called anything but an act of war. As it stands currently, I don’t think you have to worry about our unpredictability.
August 10th, 2008 at 6:39 PMUsing
As to what Dear Leader just said- I’m sitting here remembering the Spetnaz action that took place at that concert in Moscow a couple of years back. Yeah, there was the standard hue and cry about the innocent civilians who were unfortunately killed, but damn if the terroist group who tried that takeover won’t be using that tactic again in the near future.
August 10th, 2008 at 6:45 PMUsing
as much as some of us wish for secession i do not see how it could be done without benefiting the enemies of peace and freedom. we must oppose the internal attemps to over throw our republic while we fight terrorism abroad. division can only encourage France.
August 10th, 2008 at 6:55 PMUsing
Ya’know mor, it may surprise you, but we really don’t want your country, nor do we want to possess or control any of your neighbors.
You seem to be opening up about your fears of the U.S. and I can understand that. Right now we are the biggest,baddest mother-f–ker on the block. It took us a long time to get there.
We would like to work with you guys by developing things like cars, TV sets, real useful space platforms, a decent exported vodka.
I’ve never hated the Russian people, I just didn’t like your system of government with a passion. I live in California and I see the same rules on my everyday life being imposed with the government trying to tell me I can eat this and not that, you can water your lawn between these hours…etc.
mor, when that wall went down in Berlin all those years ago and signified you were free to choose your own future…don’t let that moment go to waste.
Come have a watery tasteless Coors beer with me and we’ll go do whatever we “decadent’ Americans do, like see a big screen movie or a Raiders (real) football game.
August 10th, 2008 at 7:08 PMUsing
Boss, I ain’t got time to go into detail now, but LC & IB Major Bryan has been all over this like stink on shit since the fist bullet went down range. He’s up to 13 posts already and even has Russian and Georgian nationals commenting on his site.
There is a helluva lot of deep background here, and I have to say in short, I’m with Georgia on this one.
August 10th, 2008 at 7:17 PMUsing
It’s all about the oil. Who is going to control the oil pipeline that goes through Georgia. Tsar Vladimir I wants a TOTAL monopoly. And he wants the Russian EMPIRE back.
I offer two views who are NOT MSM.
RAPING GEORGIA
RUSSIA INVADES AN AMERICAN ALLY - Ralph Peters
The Kremlin is determined to break Georgia’s will - and keep the feisty republic out of NATO.
Russia, you see, still believes it’s entitled to all of its former empire. And, tragically, “Old Europe” is back: Yesterday, Germany and other nervous European states bought the Russian line that Georgia is the aggressor. Wouldn’t want to anger Moscow . . .
The background: When a fellow officer and I drove through the region in 1991, Georgian patriots and Russian “peacekeepers” were already facing off. As the USSR collapsed, its security services leapt to foment separatist (pro-Moscow) movements in the newly independent states. In Georgia’s case, that meant instigating rebellions in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and - unsuccessfully - Adjaria (the Caucasus is a crazy quilt of obscure identities). If Georgians insisted on independence, the Kremlin intended to dissect the country.
But then Russia found itself bogged down in a series of botched wars in Chechnya as its military rotted and the Yeltsin government floundered.
Now, however, the petrodollar-powered Russia of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and his straight man, President Dmitri Medvedev, is swaggering - and determined to punish Georgia, to make it an example to other defiant neighbors.
What just happened? The Kremlin decided it was time to act, since Georgia was only growing stronger under its democratically elected government. Although NATO has been hemming and hawing about admitting Georgia, the Russians didn’t want to take any chances. (Just last month, 1,000 US troops were in Georgia for an exercise.)
Calculating that the media and world leaders would be partying in Beijing, the Russians ordered North Ossetian militiamen, backed by Russian “peacekeepers” and mercenaries, to provoke the Georgians earlier this month.
Weary of the Russian presence on their soil, the Georgians took the bait. President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered his US-trained military to respond.
That was the excuse the Kremlin wanted. Immediately, a tank brigade from Russia’s 58th Army (the butchers of Chechnya) crossed the international border into Poland - sorry, I meant Georgia.
How do I know that the Russians set a trap? Simple: Given the wretched state of Russian military readiness, that brigade could never have shot out of its motor pool on short notice. The Russians obviously “task-organized” the force in advance to make sure it would have working tanks with competent crews.
Otherwise, broken-down vehicles would’ve lined those mountain roads.
The Russians planned it. And they hope to push it to the limit.
Russian generals have always been good planners. The problems crop up in the execution.
And the Russians have several vulnerabilities:
* They have only a single route over the rugged Caucasus range. If Georgian commandos interdict it, the Russians will feel the supply pinch quickly. And any major Russian military operations need to be wrapped up before autumn snows close the passes - if there isn’t a cease-fire sooner.
* The Russians also need a local airfield to sustain their efforts - that could lure them closer to Georgia’s capital.
* Finally, the Russian army still relies on brute force - sophisticated combat operations are not its specialty. (There’s a lot more, I excerpted that)
http://www.nypost.co.....htm?page=2
‘Oil, Israel and Iran’ Among Factors that Led to Georgia War
Analysis of the war in Georgia points to a fight over a major oil route as the main reason for hostilities, but also to an Israeli connection.
Channel 2’s expert on the Muslim world, Ehud Ya’ari, told viewers of the central evening newscast that Russia and neighboring countries were vying for control of a strategic oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea to the Mediterranean. This relatively new pipeline passes through Azerbaijan and Georgia to Turkey and is the only pipeline between Asia and Europe that does not pass through Russia or Iran.
By using the ethnic Russian population in South Ossetia to destabilize Georgia, Russia was making a play for the pipeline, he said.
The Georgian move against South Ossetia was motivated by political considerations having to do with Israel and Iran, according to Nfc. Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili decided to assert control over the breakaway region in order to force Israel to reconsider its decision to cut back its support for Georgia’s military.
Russian and Georgian media reported several days ago that Israel decided to stop its support for Georgia after Moscow made it clear to Jerusalem and Washington that Russia would respond to continued aid for Georgia by selling advanced anti-aircraft systems to Syria and Iran.
Hundreds of Israeli defense experts are reportedly in Georgia and Israel’s military industries have been upgrading Georgia’s air force, training its infantry and selling the country unmanned aerial vehicles and advanced artillery systems.
Former minister Ronny Milo was reportedly among the leading Israeli middlemen in the arms deals with Georgia and Brig.-Gen. Gal Hirsch has been training army units through a company he owns.
Georgia has ordered its forces to cease fire, and offered to start talks with Russia over an end to hostilities in South Ossetia, Georgian officials said Sunday. However, Russia has reportedly rejected the offer. Earlier in the day, Georgia said its troops had pulled out of the breakaway region and that Russian forces were in control of its capital, Tskhinvali. Georgian President Saakashvili said Sunday that his country’s sovereignty is in danger.
Also on Sunday, Russia bombed a Georgian military plant in which Israeli experts are upgrading jet fighters for the Georgian military.
A Russian fighter jet bombed runways inside the plant, located near Tbilisi, where Israeli security firm Elbit is in charge of upgrading Georgian SU-25 jets.
(Israel National News Network)
I’m sorry, but I fully believe would-be Tsar Vladimir, the Machiavellian President is behind this and wants the Empire - and all its oil - back. He kills anyone who dares oppose or criticize him, blatantly because he knows the world will do NOTHING.
August 10th, 2008 at 7:34 PMUsing
I concur with Misha’s assesment of the West dropping the ball after
the Soviet fall.
We should have embraced Mother Russia with alacrity, and made Her our Lover.
Instead She was slapped in the face, and humiliated before the World.
The West laid a rotten egg, and left it to incubate in resentment,
and now it has hatched something ugly.
And Why let the Big Bad Wolf into the Fold?
Why, the better to tie him up, and make him ours, my Dear!
August 10th, 2008 at 8:17 PMUsing
Mor,
Welcome. I don’t speak for anybody on this blog but my take on the people here are that most of us have libertarian leanings with a conservative bent. Meaning we want government to leave us the fuck alone. Allow government to steal just enough of our earnings to provide for a common defense and not a penny more. We don’t need the government to tell us how thick we can slice our pickles or how many SUV’s we have in our front yard up on blocks.
We welcome new ideas and different perspectives though many a flame war has been fought over such things. At times its like the American holiday Thanksgiving where we gather to thank Gd for the blessings of the bounty he has given this nation. Where at the same holiday families gather and fight all day over the most trivial shit. There may be a Russian equivalent feel free to enlighten me.
Thank you for helping me to understand the broader picture on the Georgian problem. As for you fearing us, thats too bad because even during the cold war most sane Americans had no fear of Russians. Most of us understood that the people of a country are one thing and the leaders another (Not that you have had much of a choice in the latter.) I am as puzzled as Misha about what happened after the fall of the wall. We should have planted our big wet sloppy lips on Russias ass and asked what can we do to help. As for us wanting your resources nothing to worry about. Take a look at what we did in Iraq. We kicked out Saddam and took over then paid for the privilege to buy their oil. Oil we could just have taken. The government screwed up in that if you asked me. They should have asked Iraq to give us some oil to offset the cost of the war. Instead they bend over the American people and spend billions of stolen tax dollars in Iraq while we are bent over at the pump.
Anyway, again, welcome
August 10th, 2008 at 8:54 PMUsing
Blackfive is all over this as well. Some very interesting takes on this war.
August 10th, 2008 at 9:14 PMUsing
Sorry, Sire, I just don’t trust the “Big Bear”. Especially with Putin still very much present in their affairs.
Lady H.
August 10th, 2008 at 9:17 PMUsing
And not to be rude, but welcome “Mor”. I appreciate and I’ve been very interested in your comments.
Where’s Princess Natasha? (Mor, she is from your country, and I’d love to hear her opinion on the events of this weekend)
Now, are we going to have the usual leftist
August 10th, 2008 at 9:28 PMprotestorsscum protesting this war? I’ve already seen some commenters on various websites blaming US for this. Damn Europe. If they’re so “superior”, let them solve this by themselves. And may our government let us sit on the sidelines.Using
I think she’s been a bit busy putting on the final touches of becoming 2LT Natasha. She got back from the field at OCS a few days ago, if I remember correctly.
August 10th, 2008 at 9:57 PMUsing
Sadly, I don’t think that will be an option, Duchess.
August 10th, 2008 at 10:33 PMUsing
Thanks for the link, Crunchie, that is some excellent reporting and discussion going on there.
I’m with Georgia inasmuch as they’re our allies and I want the fighting to stop before they become the former independent state of Georgia. But I’m also not going to overlook the fact that they started it. After a decade and a half of ceasefire with the occasional outbursts from each side, Saakashvili suddenly decides, on the opening day of the Olympics, to pulverize South Ossetia’s capital and launch an all-out military assault. Yes, I did say “pulverize.” Schools, hospitals, everything they could throw an FFE on. 1,400 civilian dead in one attack, tens of thousands fleeing to the north and 15 Russian soldiers there to keep the peace dead in the rubble.
Yet, if one were to believe our own news agencies, the Big Bad Russians just launched an unprovoked invasion of Georgia out of the blue for no good reason at all.
The fighting needs to stop while there’s still something left of Georgia and a third party neutral entity needs to move into South Ossetia to keep this from happening again. And the Georgians need to understand that picking a fight with the biggest boy on your block is a damn stupid thing to do. Actions have consequences. We need to save them, no doubt about that, this cannot be allowed to get out of hand, but the thing is that we’ll be saving them from themselves.
I’m not trusting Putin any further than I can throw him. I never have. That’s not the issue. The issue is that the Georgians started this by committing an act of war upon the people of Tshkinvali. What were the Russians supposed to do? Sit there and take it?
August 10th, 2008 at 11:00 PMUsing
Sire, I attempted to speed read through this thread. I didn’t click on all of the links, so maybe someone already mentioned this post. I guess The Armorer is the author, but he quotes (almost in full) an e-mail from a Russian veteran (an Afghansti) who includes a timeline of how this started. I’m not sure if this was mentioned before, but, according to this e-mailer, the Georgian president asked the Russians for assistance (if I read that correctly). That adds an interesting layer to this. Also, the writer firmly believes that the Georgian president is a terrorist, and compared him to Hitler and Stalin. If (and that’s a BIG if) that’s true… why are we buddy-buddy with these people?
I do think that it was a little too convenient that Putin had tanks on the border, and it was a tad sneaky to just grant the South Ossetians citizenship. Then again, that is what they’ve been asking for, no?
August 10th, 2008 at 11:30 PMUsing
There was a Naval message that was sent out, I can’t remember by whom, not long after the Soviet Union imploded. The purpose of the message was to remind us to keep sharp on OPSEC, it ended with the warning that “the bear is still a bear.” I’ve always remembered that, even though it’s been almost 20 years.
August 10th, 2008 at 11:51 PMUsing
How did South Ossetia end up as part of Georgia if it is so culturally Russian?
August 11th, 2008 at 12:11 AMWhen the Georgians cracked down on the Seperatists Putin was very fast to isert his Russian “Peacekeepers” into someone else’s country.
I wonder how Putin would react to someone like Iraq or Iran sending Peacekeepers into Chechnya?
The one thing we can rely on is that the West will buckle and Putin will see that he has nothing to worry about in reassembling the Communist Soviet Empire by force.
Using
Excellent link, Beth. Once again we see that we aren’t being told the whole truth here.
A sobering thought I just had re: Georgian membership of NATO, the continued expansion of which, particular where countries neighboring Russia are concerned, has been the single most important reason why some Russians have been beginning to wonder if we were really serious about the Cold War being over.
No, and pardon a temporary digression here, I’m not saying that I don’t understand the former satellite slave states of the Soviet Union wanting to have some backup, just in case. I fully understand that. After 50 years of what they went through, I’d be a bit uneasy about my big neighbor too, to say the very least, nor am I saying that we were “wrong” to let them in. I’m just pointing out a fact. I guarantee you that if the Russian Federation had signed military alliances with all of Western Europe as well as Mexico and Canada, there’d be a fair number of us who would be worried.
Back to Georgia: If they’d been granted membership of NATO before all of this happened, then we’d be at war with Russia now. Think about that for a second. Sure, their membership might have made Russia not counterattack, but would that make Georgia shelling Tshkinvali’s civilians with artillery and rockets right? The way I think Russians might see it, is that they suspect that Saakashvili’s real motivation for getting chummy with us was to get an umbrella under which he could realize his expansionist aspirations regarding South Ossetia and Abkhazia. And I’m beginning to wonder if they aren’t right about this.
One thing I do know is that when we sent in advisors to train Georgia’s military, it wasn’t to train them to carpet bomb the civilians of a major city and run over the survivors with tanks, yet that is exactly what they did on Friday.
I’m beginning to get the feeling that we’ve been played by Saakashvili, and that ain’t a good feeling. It pisses me off. Provided that it’s true, of course, which nobody knows at this time, including me. Just speculation and a sickening hunch.
August 11th, 2008 at 12:26 AMUsing
Stalin made them a part of Georgia to “divide and conquer”, a common strategy employed by the Communist dictators of old. When you had an ethnic minority with strong bonds, splitting their territory between two governmental entities made it harder for them to join together and resist. Before that, there hadn’t been a “South” and “North” Ossetia, it was just “Ossetia.”
That remains to be seen, but it’s a very real danger that we shouldn’t ignore. Which, by the way, is the main reason why we should act quickly to make sure that Georgia doesn’t become a “test case.” Personally I don’t feel all that sorry for them after what they did to Tshkinvali, but we DON’T want to establish a precedent of allowing Putin to start gobbling up former Soviet republics.
August 11th, 2008 at 12:31 AMUsing
i read today that separatist actions preceded the shelling of Tshknivali, as in football the flag is often called on the second guy, who reacts to the first provocation which was unseen.
August 11th, 2008 at 12:45 AMUsing
I read that too, Sir Chris. That obviously complicates matters further, since I’ll be the last person on Earth to suggest that one doesn’t have the right to fire back if fired upon.
It’s also my understanding that sniping back and forth between the two sides has been going on for quite some time. I read one place, for instance, that Saakashvili had declared a unilateral ceasefire right before the separatist fire that allegedly caused the Georgian reaction. That suggests to me that there had to be some firing going on beforehand. After all, what’s the point in calling a unilateral ceasefire if you haven’t been shooting at all?
Then there’s the magnitude of the barrage that the Georgians called down on Tshtinkvali right after said separatist fire, the barrage that started the all-out offensive. Talk about prior planning. I don’t know. Also, the calling of a ceasefire, only to immediately cry foul and say that the other side started it by not ceasing to fire. Maybe they weren’t aware of the sudden outbreak of peace? I mean, if I’m exchanging blows with somebody and I suddenly cry out “OK, I’m not going to hit you anymore” and the other guy lands another blow right after that…? Again, I don’t know. I’m not there. And then there’s the timing with the opening of the Olympics. For once I do have to say that I “question the timing.”
Problem is, we’re being fed propaganda from both sides and it’s getting damn hard to find out where the truth lies, we only know that it probably lies somewhere in between.
All that I do know is that it’s a royal mess, and it needs to stop yesterday.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:26 AMUsing
i was reading the SFGate comments section on this story earlier and one guy referred to the Third Fatima Prophecy… creeped me out… so i read up a bit on that whole deal, having visited Fatima in my twenties. i think he was just trying freak out the libtards and bring the hated “religion” into the mix
Plus, i also went to the ballpark today and saw my Giants beat the L.A. Dodgers!!! Now THERE is a conflict!!
August 11th, 2008 at 1:37 AMUsing
Wikipedia has an excellent post on the war.
It is lengthy, but worth the time.
Lots of links, and many sources,though some are not in English.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)
August 11th, 2008 at 8:15 AMUsing
Sire, you can argue that Georgia would have been wiser to let sleeping dogs lie, but it appears now the Russia is most definitely taking advantage of this situation and pressing for as much control of this area as possible. And while we don’t want to go to war with Russia over South Ossetia, an ally’s sovereignty is being challenged and their cities and industries are being bombed, and as George W. said:
Yep. They’re teaching Georgia a tough lesson, the same that the Kurds and the Shi’ites learned after the Gulf War. Don’t depend on the west, even with promises. They just don’t have the stomach to come to your aid….
August 11th, 2008 at 9:33 AMUsing
Translation:
August 11th, 2008 at 9:56 AMUsing
Yep. I guess that sounds simply peace-keepy…
August 11th, 2008 at 10:09 AMUsing
As the comments above clearly show, this conflict is a lot more complex than “who threw the first punch” that we were made aware of by our BS media. Russia is and always has been a jealous and heavy-handed, if not downright ruthless feudal lord. But to put this into a U.S. perspective, let’s say back in 1860, when the citizens of the Confederate States of America chose to separate from the Union, England decided to take that opportunity to punish the Yanks for their insurrection less than 100 years prior. The full weight of the British Navy and land forces, together with the industrial resources of Britain and her colonies would likely have put some serious hurt on the Union and forced a treaty that acknowledged the Confederate States right to exist. The Mason Dixon line would probably run from coast to coast and have a fence. Mexico would probably have been a CSA state or territory and be no more F’d up than Texas now, too-but I digress. I expressly disavow all attempts to start or otherwise participate in any argument about whether that would’ve been an improvement on history–I know His Rottieness’ position on that point and that helps me make this point with regard to Georgia/Ossettia–bottom line, it’s best if Russia and the U.S. stay the F out’a these people’s internecine conflicts. It ain’t right to just go around layin’ waste to civilians and civilian property, the way the Russkies are want to do and it sure ain’t right to waste U.S. blood and money on a bunch of malcontents who can’t even get along with their immediate neighbors. Let the little kids fight it out among themselves–it’s called natural selection.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:46 AMUsing
Ol’ Mother Russia sure is trying to wear a lot of hats here. First, there’s the undeniable “aggressor” hat, evidenced by the South Ossentian Passport scam. Then there’s the “victim” hat, as in, “Oh Noes, our people got shot up!”. Finally, of course, there’s their tattered, much-worn “peacekeeper” hat, without which they’d never have been allowed in South Ossentia or Abkhazia in the first place. It’s granted that no one likes a two-front war of secession on their southern border, but Russia’s responses show, clearly, that this was pre-planned AND staged.
Mischa, I don’t often disagree with you (make that never since I’ve been reading this site), but this time I think showing any support for Russia is wrong. There was a time when we should have, but that time has passed and we could be seeing the beginning of the result of that miscalculation.
The problem with President Bush’s statement can be summed up by stating he forgot to add “or else.” to the end of it. The problem with alliances, as noted both here and in other websites wasn’t that they could get troops into battle at the point of initial conflict, it was that they’d simply throw troops into battle against any portion of the aggressor country which happened to be close to theirs. “If you hit our friend THERE, we’ll hit you HERE.” What Russia’s done is, in effect, moved the front in South Ossentia to all over Georgia. The airstrikes, the naval blockade (how long does it take to sortie a battle group?), the tanks in N. Georgia, the tanks in Abkhazia. To borrow your own phrase, they didn’t just “poke a stick at the big bear”; it looks rather like the bear was standing there with one big paw raised.
So the Georgians want their own land back from pro-Russian influences in South Ossentia? It looks rather clear that the only thing which has prevented this from occuring before now has been Russian meddling in South Ossentia. Now the Russians have moved (rather rapidly) from indirect meddling to direct shelling of another Sovereign Nation (which is NOT something the Georgians did no matter how you slice it). This removes the thin cover of “peacekeeping” and substitutes it with the heavy-handed glove of “pacification”. You’ve seen that glove before, directly, haven’t you?
August 11th, 2008 at 10:52 AMUsing
On a final note, today’s news stated that the Russian tanks retreated from a position 5k from Gori to one about 20k. The ONLY way the Georgians could possibly manage to stop a Russian tank assault would be with DIRECT US LOGISTICAL SUPPORT. If you can see it, you can kill it, and I think right now the Georgians are getting all of the satellite imagery they could possibly wish for, and possibly even Predator/observer drone support over the battle areas.
Also reported are 9,000 Russian troops in Abkhazia… Not counting the forces at sea, that means the Russians could have just over 20,000 troops on the ground in Georgia now, in only 3.5 days? :em96: That’s one mighty big bear paw to move in that amount of time. If Mexico decided to suddenly capture Phoenix, Arizona, I doubt we’d be able to muster that many forces on the ground that fast. Of course, with our air superiority and force-multiplying smart munitions, I doubt a ground advance would ever reach Phoenix, but that’s another story entirely. Perhaps Tucson would be a more reasonably-achieved target?
August 11th, 2008 at 11:06 AMUsing
Those “little kids” stood up to be counted alongside our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan when they were called. They have an established democracy in their country. They applied for admission to NATO.
Now at what point again did you decide they weren’t worthy of our support?
Okay, so Russia DIDN’T stay out of this… NOW, whatcha gonna to do about it?
The point at which Russia chose to disregard another country’s borders is the point at which this becomes an INTERNATIONAL INCIDENT, which should be addressed by the UN, the world community, NATO, etc. We (America) just so happen to be the Enforcer for the rest of the world, not because we want that role, but because we’re the ones capable of doing it. And make no mistake about it, it must be done.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:17 AMUsing
The Russians are now going beyond the borders of South Ossentia into Georgia proper. Looks like they are taking advantage to grab more land.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:27 AMUsing
Here’s the Devil’s view from the UK. Interesting in that this was predicted about a year ago.
Currently there’s way too much crap floating around for me to form an informed opinion, but I instinctively suspect Russia. One thing I am confident of, there’s no help for Georgia coming from Europe :em72:
August 11th, 2008 at 11:55 AMUsing
Fox News Radio just reported that a town outside of the 2 disputed teritorys has fallen
Gorey, which is south of the georgian capital has fallen. it looks like that Russia is going for the KO before the US and NATO get the balls to tell them to stop.
Ted
August 11th, 2008 at 12:09 PMUsing
Surprised to see that so few people acknowledge the fact that Russia is a banana (read “oil”) republic, run by a bunch of gangsters, with absolutely no regard for democracy. The Russion public are still - as they have been down through the ages - pawns who will do what they are told or suffer the consequences. Much like North Korea or Iran, - run by hoodlums who will stop at nothing… including assasination of political opponents. Attempted murder on Georgian officials, and armed uprising in South Ossetia (guess who supplies the weapons and the funding) are but a few of the “deeds” that caused Georgia to take military action. I am sure USA would have done the same thing if a bunch of mexicans living in Texas declared their own state and tried to kill the Governor.
Liberal scum all over the place say: Well - if the USA can behave like gangsters in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places, why should Russia not have their 15 minutes? That is the kind of arguments.. and sentiments.. we are up against and it makes me sick. It so happens that South Ossetia is full of oil - and Georgia is able and willing to sell their oil WITHOUT using it as a political weapon (like Russia).
Russia has developed into a 19th century imperialistic nation - run by the mafia - and if unopposed they will apply their gunboat diplomatics on a wider and wider scale. What will be Russias next “claim”. The North Pole??? All they have to do is drop a bomb on Santa and its theirs …. or so it seems?
South Ossetia is a part of Georgia and you cannot just issue 70.000 russian passports and make the region Russian that way. If the population have accepted their new citizenship, they should have the decency to pick up and leave for Russia.
If sovereign nations can no longer depend on their borders we will see a lot of new “liberation armies” in the world. How about “The peoples democratic Hispanic army of Miami” or how about a new nation … “Mexican Republic of Southern California”. How would you like them apples?????
Sorry to see that I disagree with (many?) people here. Supporting Russia in this conflict (or any other) is just NOT an option for me….
Thats all I had to say.
August 11th, 2008 at 12:36 PMUsing
… PS - I do have to say that I did not read all comments before I left my own. My lesson is that no word is ever final…
Some people seem to have second thoughts - or even expressing doubts!!! - My advise is simply:
WHEN IN DOUBT - SHOOT THE RUSSIAN.
Chances are that you will save yourself and a whole bunch of other innocent people.
August 11th, 2008 at 12:49 PMUsing
:em01: :em01: :em01:
This has gone beond protecting ones citizens to naked aggresion.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:02 PMI think Russia is quickly losing sympathy on this site
Using
After today’s updates, you betcha. (See new post).
August 11th, 2008 at 1:50 PMUsing
I know there are far more here with more in depth knowledge about the goings on, and the military and political implications, but as for me, I have never trusted Russia and never will. I have my reasons, and not about to bring them up here and throw the whole thread into a totally different and poisonous direction, but I have never agreed with Misha (sorry Sire) that we needed to stay allies with Russia. I knew they would start showing their Socialist asses again at some point. Putin is ,and always will be, a KGB thug and always had his plans for bringing back the USSR.
August 11th, 2008 at 2:19 PMUsing
We should have pursued that course then. We missed that train, thanks to the idiotic policies of Bush I and Billy Jeff and the Russians, in response to our triumphalist poking them in the eye and treating them like a bunch of bitches unworthy of consideration, turned to a complete and utter asshole like Putin to restore their power.
Therein lies the problem. Now we’re stuck with an ex-KGB totalitarian and I sure as Hell don’t feel comfortable dealing with him either. We had a shot at working with reasonable people right after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. We didn’t take it. We were too busy getting “Made in China” stamped on every fucking item in Wal*Mart and belittling and treating like a red-headed stepchild the people living in the wreckage of the Soviet Union who just wanted to be like us, whose dreams throughout all of those years living under the Soviet yoke revolved around one day being like us, so now we’re stuck with an asshole and a lot of hard feelings.
August 11th, 2008 at 2:48 PMUsing
I certainly agree with that. We should have struck while the iron was hot and worked with them to do away for good all the Socialist/Communist assholes who still had places of power and made sure they were replaced with those who wanted to allow Russia to see it’s full potential as a Democratic nation. We just knocked them down and turned and walked away and that was a damn bad mistake.
Just seeing Gorbachev standing in front of Reagan’s casket HONORING the man who helped bring down the Soviet Bear…….you had to know we missed a wonderful chance of helping that man make his country a fully Democratic one and burying Socialism forever there.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:32 PMUsing
Holy fuck, what a shitstorm! I’ve been kind of keeping track of the goings-on, between all the OCS stuff and so forth, and I am glad that we here in the States get access to so much information. At first, my thoughts were “Georgians started it, they need a bitch-slap to sober them up”. However, looking at the brutality of Russian response, and keeping in mind just how much of an evil piece of shit Putin is, I firmly believe this action is not about keeping Ossetia independent. It is an excuse, and Putin is testing the waters for something a lot more disgusting. He may be seeing himself as the second coming of Uncle Joe. I don’t know. What I do know is that the majority of Russians are being misinformed about the actions “over there”. We must remember that the government still controls all the news outlets, and one can still get his proverbial pee-pee whacked by expressing a dissenting opinion.
Russians and Georgians, while sharing the same religion, have not got along historically. The more ignorant among the Russians despise them and stereotype them all as thieves, killers, perverts, and rapists, which is, of course, absolutely untrue. As an aside, and it is irrelevant to the topic at hand, yet interesting to know, but Stalin was Georgian (Iosif Djugashvili was his real name).
Finally, please, for the love of all that’s good and holy, do not identify all Russians with their government. They are, by and large, prisoners in their own country. The little taste of freedom they had before Putin began tightening the screws was hardly enough to wake them up. Sure, some escape, but some do not have the means or the opportunity to do so. Some do not know any better… So, no, “kill them all” does not apply.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:32 PMUsing
Princess Natasha : Unfortuantly immigrants often hate there motherland for not giving them what they serached. Hope you found what you were looking for
I was shocked reading
“Russians and Georgians, while sharing the same religion, have not got along historically. The more ignorant among the Russians despise them and stereotype them all as thieves, killers, perverts, and rapists, which is, of course, absolutely untrue. As an aside, and it is irrelevant to the topic at hand, yet interesting to know, but Stalin was Georgian (Iosif Djugashvili was his real name)”
I live in Moscow, and lot’s of my half Georgians and georgians are NOT thieves, killers, perverts, and rapists. And can’t name any normal person (and contact with lots of people) whom I know would say that. I can say more. Lots of people respect Stalin (even younger one), they think that the order which was in country is something that we need now(I don’t share this opinion), but thing is that you either incompetent or just delibaratly tell lies.
About planning and so on. I could be planned but… reaction was too clumsy and slow at first. Have you been at SO? Its tiny. And firing started days before was started. Then Russia ask US to make an influence on Saakashvili to cease fire, and satisfied by answer done nothing. If at 5th of augest Russia moved more troops to Chinval nothing would happen.
Second. By the terms of 1994 agreement there is 24km free zone, where only peace keapers could be. Question: what the hell georgian troops were doing there when “they fired from SO side, with what provoked Georgia to use tough force. 24km is long distance isn’t it?! only rockets and HEAVY HEAVY arts could fire that long.
Third. About joining Georgia…BULL SH….T
We had enough with people that want to live separatly. Chchnya showed that having such problem is meaningless for a country. No one wants to build SU again. 15 republics, only 4-5 of which had good production and money and so on. Others like Kirgizia - stone on the kneck. Why the hell we should want POOREST country to get in??? To feed them, no thanks, let yankies do it.
You say propaganda….does your news differ from channel to channel? Is there any US channel that shows any new picture or any different opinion? I don’t think so. What I know that people suffered thats for sure, and that OUR goverment helps them NOW. And also I know that you won’t atack “band of separatists” by firing a weapon which bombs squares. Grad is such a system - it covers a square, it means nothing lives on a rect which was covered. If you want to free people ypu don’t fire at them don’t you?! Or you do?
August 14th, 2008 at 5:47 PMUsing