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You Can’t Fight a Religion Without Having One Yourself
Posted by: Emperor Misha I in Imperial Thoughts, The Long War11:45 AM
Captain Ed links to a very interesting article by the Anchoress and manages to miss the point. Well, sort of. Not entirely, as is obvious by reading his article and I’m probably just picking nits anyway, but it’s a point that bears repeating, in my not-so-humble opinion.
In the end, power will be the final arbiter, as it is in almost all human conflict. Until the risk/reward ratio gets to the point where supporting the radical Islamists costs more than it’s worth, we can discuss scriptures until we’re blue in the face without impacting the sympathy and support the terrorists receive from their co-religionists. That doesn’t mean we should keep God on the sidelines — I agree that we have to stop being afraid of our own heritage in this conflict — but that Napoleon’s famous axiom about the Almighty favoring the side with the most battalions will have more application.
And that’s where he’s wrong. Not in his assessment that you need a bunch of very secular kick-ass power in order to win a war, of course, he’s absolutely right in that, but by suggesting that faith is somewhat secondary to that necessity.
It isn’t. Allow me to explain, but first let me point out to all of my non-Christian LC friends that I’m not saying that I wouldn’t be honored to have you in my foxhole, I would, nor am I in the slightest suggesting that you can’t kick arse with the best of us. That’s not my point. It’s a bigger picture.
Physical, secular strength is what you bring to the battle to weaken, destroy and defeat your enemy. The strength of faith is what you bring to the battle to strengthen yourself, with “yourself” meaning your side as a whole.
When you remove the unity of shared faith, shared culture and shared history from a society, you create a vacuum within the individuals living in it. Nature abhors a vacuum. That vacuum will soon be filled by “something else”, the “something else” being something that replaces what is gone, the need to feel strong and united, the need to feel powerful and the need to have a spiritual bulwark against the enemies facing you. If you want to find out what happens when such a weakened society is faced with a culture and religion that exudes strength and unity, look no further than to what is going on in Eurabia right now.
People, without their centuries-old proud legacies to bolster their beliefs in their own worth, either cower or even convert to “join the winning side.” They give up the fight or fight less efficiently than they could because they have no banner to flock under, they have no “rock” to anchor themselves to, a rock that unites them all and gives them something worth fighting for as well as something from which they can draw the strength of knowing that there are millions who believe just as they do. The strength from knowing that hundreds of generations that went before are looking at them, judging them by their actions.
Does anybody honestly believe that the first Crusades would have been able to accomplish all they did against the far numerically superior Saracen hordes if they hadn’t had their faith and “Deus Vult” in their backs?
If so, I have a nice bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell them for a song.
Technology delivers power, Identity delivers morale, and morale is to sheer numbers as ten to one.
Could we come up with something other than Christianity to deliver that identity, that firm belief that we neither must, nor can lose? Why of course we could if we so desired. Besides, Christianity isn’t all that we in the West share, we have a long history and old culture behind us too (neither of which we’re allowed to be proud of either, according to “progressives”), but when you already have the necessary parts laying around, why go reinventing the wheel?
Especially in the middle of a war. That’s no time to be experimenting.
Thatisall.
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Another section of his post…
I think THIS is the mistake many people are making, in that they are assuming that the above is true. I think it is likely that we DO have entire nations supporting doing this, but most of them are aware of the realities of the modern world and realize that doing so would quickly result in multiple gifts in the 2 megaton range. Also, some, like Malaysia, would realize that there would be no one to sell their crap to (crap their citizens can barely afford) so maybe nuking their own economy isn’t a good idea.
Oh, um, first.
December 13th, 2008 at 12:13 PMUsing
OT-Crunchie did you hear about the 10 Green Berets getting 10 silver stars? Good unsung glory
December 13th, 2008 at 12:31 PMUsing
I disagree. Religion is the smaller part of our culture.
Our culture is essentially greco-roman … and all of the emphasis on individualism, trust of individuals inside that culture ( no pernicious damned tribalism ), and demand for just and even-handed laws that is implied by it.
Cultures that are crippled by tribalism, groupthink, or completely run by religions, cannot compete.
The religions of the book were grafted on to our culture only very recently. Not that I have a problem with them. If you need them, fine ….
December 13th, 2008 at 1:18 PMUsing
Kristopher, LC sez:
You do have a point there, that’s for sure, but religion is still the thing that used to glue us together. Not that I’m saying that we haven’t other things that glue us together as well, because we most certainly do as you point out, but those too are considered “un-PC” to talk about.
And it was religion that built what we have now upon the ruins of Greco-Roman culture. If it hadn’t been for all of those monks preserving all that knowledge through the Dark Ages, we’d have had to start over or adopt somebody else’s system.
What I’m trying to get at is that we’re not “just” in a war here, we’re in a deep identity crisis. We need to find something that is “bigger than us”, not to worship but to identify with, a bulwark against the solid identity that our enemies hold to. Thankfully, we have plenty of that, and not only religion either, although it’s already there and ready to use. We just need to get in touch with it, identify with it and realize that that is what we fight for, that is what makes us a people and that’s what will still be around long after we’re gone.
It could just as easily be the rich cultural background of Greco-Roman history as you mention, but we need something. This isn’t to discount individualism, I’m awfully big on that as well you know, but if you really want to defeat a horde, it’s hard to rally people around you if all you have is “we’re off to fight for your right to watch American Idol.”
I mean, I will fight for people’s right to watch that if they so desire, even though I despise the show personally, but it’s not much of a foundation for a movement. What we lack, as a nation, not you and I, is a national identity that glues us together to the point where we’ll destroy anything that stands in our way to maintain it. Because that’s what our enemy has.
I just picked religion because it’s “easy”, being already there. I didn’t pick it to even imply that “if you don’t have it, you’re not one of us.”
December 13th, 2008 at 1:29 PMUsing
Misha, my dear Emperor, I’m sorry to say that you are WRONG about this. What you bring to the battle is BELIEF, and while that may include faith, it does not have to. The belief in freedom, or that you are doing the right thing is just as strong.
December 13th, 2008 at 1:35 PMUsing
Armada sez:
We don’t disagree. It doesn’t have to. What it does have to include is a set of shared values, a belief in a bigger ideal that cannot and must not be defeated. If Christianity fills that void, then great. If something else such as our cultural and historical superiority does it, equally great. “Beliefs” and “faith” are two sides of the same coin.
It is perfectly possible for a Christian, an atheist, a Jew, a pagan etc. to completely agree on the superiority of Western Civ and the thought and rationality that it is built upon without agreeing for a second on issues of religious faith.
What isn’t possible is for a union like that to last long or to fight with all that it has in it while bickering over minute articles of personal belief.
It’s similar to the curse of “hyphenation” that liberals invented to Balkanize the country. I don’t care where the fuck you came from, I don’t intend to disparage or insult your heritage or in any way suggest that you shouldn’t be proud of it or neglect to pass it on to your kids, you should, as long as you’re an American first.
I’m not native born, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever put a hyphen on my nationality. The day I took the Oath (quite possibly before that, but I didn’t know it at the time), I became an American and nothing else besides that. A lot of things below that, but nothing at the same level or above.
December 13th, 2008 at 1:45 PMUsing
There’s plenty of historical evidence to back that statement up. Many of the greatest war leaders in history were convinced that they were an instrument of God’s will…..George Washington, Thomas J. Jackson, George Patton, Richard Coeur de’ Leon (The Lion Heart), Joan of Arc….they were only a few who carried the sword in God’s name….often asking for his divine guidance as they went about their terrible work.
I believe that a faith in God/a Higher Power/a Savior or ANYTHING that you deem to be superior to your own being (any Master Sergeants or Chiefs out there??? :em93:) … is a strong motivator to do things that we would ordinarily not have the strength or courage to do normally. I remember the story of the Union Irish Brigade at Gettysburg, as they formed up to check a Confederate breakthrough in the Wheatfield. They as a brigade knelt down to be blessed by their chaplain, Father Corby, before moving into battle….a battle that decimated them as a brigade. They had the courage to stand and hold there, through a mix of their Irish heritage and desire to take their military experience back to Ireland to free their homeland….and by the sheer strength of their faith that they were doing God’s will on that field. It carried them at Fredericksburg and Antietam and back in their home country of Ireland.
Have you ever had to do something that you weren’t sure that you had the fortitude to pull off? A task that seemed so undoable, so above and beyond your normal experience that you had no idea what to do? I’ve had a few of those, most notably finding the strength to get clean and sober and once having to keep a level head in a gunfire incident so I could clear my neighbors out of the line of fire. I don’t believe that I had the smarts or fortitude to do those things on my own, I know it….I’m not that tough a guy and I’m not that smart. But I DO believe that I had help on those two occasions, and I remember praying for guidance on both occasions….praying for help in doing the right thing, and it was granted.
So I am a believer in divine guidance, and ask for it daily. I’m far from being a model Christian and sin on a daily basis, and don’t attend church regularly….but I pray daily, I give thanks for my sobriety and thank God for one more day on this planet…..and I ask for the strength to do his will in dealing with my fellow man. It levels me out, and helps me think clearly…..and it gives me the clarity to decide what to do in most situations. So call me naive, call me gullible to that “fairy tale” of God and Jesus….but it works in my life and I have no intention of changing it.
But know this…I also have NO intention of converting any one of you who hold alternative beliefs…or no beliefs at all….that is your decision and if it works, cool. I will respect you as an Atheist, or Agnostic, or Gaia worshipper or whatever….you are free to do what you please, as am I….respect my beliefs, let me believe what I want and I will do the same for you…..there’s room enough in this world for us all.
December 13th, 2008 at 2:39 PMUsing
Case of fish not seeing the water. The culture itself is far more important than you may think. Christianity is just a small and recent part of it. We have far more in common with the ancient Romans, then say, third-world Christians.
December 13th, 2008 at 2:51 PMUsing
Emperor Misha I sez:
And that right there is the money quote. And the true issue that exists in the US today. It is the very LACK of “shared values” or common vision that allows US to be divided. The lack of unity does detract from efficiency. I’m thinking of the exmple set by the “greatest generation” (although they also produced these fucks we’re dealing with now) when they set out in WW2. Different faiths, ways of life, but the majority were heavily indoctrinated and PROUD to be “Americans”, and they brought that commonality effectively to the battlefield. In my mind the undermining of the Pledge of Allegiance, the stress on “multi-culturalism” the constant unbalanced negativity of the media, have all served to diminish “our” culture of Americanism”. Nationalism is viewed as being a negative, instead of the recognition that there is indeed a a very real societal benefit in a HEALTHY sense of nationalism. Our “culture” is being homogenized (spelling?) on many levels. The stress is on “individualism” at the expense of the recognition as being part of a “whole”.
The aspect of religious commonality in my mind isnt as important as the recognition that the Islamists, due to thier religions failure to evolve represent a culture that commits ongoing “crimes against humanity” and in its current form is inherently evil not only to it’s adherents but to all others as well. Once this definition becomes agreed upon and spoken, the foundation will be laid for all parties to share a common drive to combat the enemy.
Imagine if you will a WW2 where Hitler and Tojo weren’t villified and portrayed as being BAD but misguided. Imagine if the soldiers wearing german uniforms weren’t portrayed as NAZI’s but as misguided participants. What would the impact of that thought have been on battlefield? Imagine if the German and Japenese public weren’t blamed for the behavior of thier government? It was that concept (of villification) that allowed the allies to fight with all tools available and to justify what had to be done in regards to the bombing of cities etc. How is the “religion” of Islam or its adherents any different? Especially considering the impact on its government and law as practiced today? They are just as EVIL as Pol Pot, they are just as evil as Hitler, its the idea that there is some form of seperation of church and state when it comes to Islam that impedes the reality of the situation……
December 13th, 2008 at 2:54 PMUsing
Troy, you are spot on. The problem we have now is we are still suffering from the effects of the boomer generation. They had an easy upbringing as their parents didn’t want them to suffer as the greatest generation did. But what did that cause? a generation that rebelled against their parents, their country and their gods. That mindset and the consequence’s that followed have dominated our country for the last 40 years. As a member of generation X, I look around, roll up my sleeves and say to the boomers “get off the stage, kindergarten is over, and since you wont clean up your mess time for the ADULTS to do it!”
Misha’s Money quote
I am a American!
This is not Europe or some islamic crapistan, If you don’t like it here, MOVE! Don’t try to change my paradise into those failed excuses for political states just to make you FEEL GOOD about yourself. ESAL ASSH*LE!
We need to elect conservatives that promote our Borders, Language and Culture.
Not these power hungry, would know a conservative ideal if you smacked them upside the head with a “clue by four” like my senator Voinovich. Who imploded on Sean Hanity’s show when pressed about america’s desire to secure our boarder.
Until we purge the Republicans of the “addicted to money” crowd for ones who care about the country instead of their bank statements. If I hear one more of these types talk about how important illegal labor is to the economy… :em72: :em72: :em58: :em58: :em96: :em96:
Ted
December 13th, 2008 at 4:15 PMUsing
LC Ted sez:
oh, there’s a few of us boomers who have rebelled AGAINST our generation….I put the blame for the cultural and moral decay so prevalent in this country squarely on the shoulders of the 60’s generation…..and regret that I’m a member of that generation….but I and others are a very very vocal lot when speaking out against the cultural rot our peers dish out on this nation.
Hey Ted, see that bald guy with the bad knees standing beside you with HIS sleeves rolled up? That’s me, lead the way Brudda.
December 13th, 2008 at 4:36 PMUsing
Kristopher (Literally “Christ Bearer”) @8.
That’s an interesting thesis which might be worth trying to demonstrate.
December 13th, 2008 at 5:24 PMUsing
Misha
Damn right, you forgot about Hooters, that is definatly something to fight to presrve. :em01: If some islamofacist tries to tell me I am no longer allowed to overpay for some burgers and hot wings so I can be served food by hot women with big Ta Ta’s and short shorts then that will definatly motivate the hell outta me to kick come ass and take some names. Or how about strip clubs? or beer? I don’t know about you but I will fight to the dath to protect that. :em01: :em95: :em03:
December 13th, 2008 at 5:33 PMUsing
Amen Jaybear. As a boomer I can only say this…..not all of us ended up that way. My growing up anything but easy. The toughest steel forged in fire. Something inside me said no………..I cannot explain it. I’ve always hauled my own freight and then some. I enlisted, against the advice of some friends, I have never once regretted it. Then again, I had people like my mother and father, both of whom were principled and most of all, lived their words. I admired them, sought to emulate their beliefs. I was in awe of my dad. I have been told I did so, by both, music to my ears. I wanted their respect more than their gifts. Maybe I’m crazy, but I turned down Dads offer of putting me through college…a gift after my military service. Sadly, I’ve told my daughter my generation was the most selfish, self centered, self indulgent, lazy generation this country ever produced. I can only hope others do better, for we have done them an enormous disservice. Like you, Jaybear, I will be standing there too, doing what I can……..we could share old times of memories gone past.
December 13th, 2008 at 5:46 PMUsing
LC HJ Caveman82952 sez:
right beside you Cave, we can prop each other up when our achy knees give out :em01:
I find comfort in the fact that each generation seems to go counter to the generation before it. I teach in the public school system at a vocational academy, and am constantly surprised at the conservative values and ideas that these kids bring with them….thinking they’re big rebels and such. I just laugh and encourage them….hee hee
December 13th, 2008 at 5:59 PMUsing
Misha:
You have just insulted two people who are very dear to me: My grandfathers. One served in the Army Air Corps repairing planes; the other fought in the front lines as a PFC in the Army. Both are heroes to me for what they did.
Both are agnostic.
You want a double dose of irony? One of my grandfathers, who was raised in an Orthodox Jewish household, actually lost his faith in God, and became a lifelong agnostic (which he still is to this day), due to what he knew Hitler was doing in Europe. And THEN he entered the Army.
Frankly? If anyone has a reason to loathe Islamofascists, it’s us Nonbelievers. The radically conformist, anti-atheist, bigoted, murderous, religious extremists that we are fighting against are the absolute antithesis of what any atheist or agnostic stands for.
December 13th, 2008 at 6:14 PMUsing
mayim sez:
so I’m confused here, did your grandfather think that Hitler was operating in God’s name??? with all due respect to your grandfather, and I commend him for his service…but if he thought that, then he is 100% dead wrong….please clarify if I am not understanding your point here. Hitler was agnostic at best, most likely a committed atheist. All you have to do is go over the demographics of the internees in the concentration camps. Christians, Jews, Orthodox Catholics……they were all treated as brutally as the populations that Hitler deemed inferior to the Aryan race.
December 13th, 2008 at 6:20 PMUsing
Kristopher, LC sez:
Greco-Roman culture was highly religious. For example, depending on the ancient Greek city you might pop into a time machine and visit in its heyday, you may have been unable to have any outdoor vantage point inside the city without seeing an idol. And while the Greeks didn’t have weekends per se, they did have an average of 50 or so holidays a year. Religious holidays, mind you. Athens and Sparta strong-armed each other into dubious alliances using religious devotion as motivators many times.
Rome was not so different; the official Roman religion was quite syncretic, and quite widely “celebrated” and practice (except for weird fringe groups like Jews or Druids that they couldn’t bring themselves to understand for the most part).
So I don’t know how religion is the “smaller part of our culture” if our culture is “essentially Greco-Roman”.
Frankly, I agree that we inherited their strain of individualism, but our culture is far more “secular” than theirs ever was (in that you don’t see people stopping to pray in the streets on a regular basis, or have your very religion ensure that your social group is defined as X X and X, or see a majority worldview requiring references to religious motivators in the most mundane of texts; in our culture, whether or not The Lord inspires your most mundane texts is implicit in what you the individual decide). Moreover, there are plenty of cultural concepts that we are far removed from that the Greeks and Romans would have understood readily (such as their conceptions of ownership and business dealings), but puzzle us today when we read such works as the Epistles of Paul; the religious world of the Middle Ages and beyond is actually what gave us such universally-accepted concepts as strangers from other countries not being enemies you have to kill should you meet one, nor do you need a treaty to be at peace, but rather a declaration to be at war. We take these essential commonsensical cultural norms for granted, but in fact they were quite the opposite back in the day.
Armada sez:
You can believe that having “Rational Anarcist” set in *spit*ComicSansMS*spit* would make a good Avatar all you want, I have faith in the fact that poor spelling and typography are the two things that the United States would even deserve a fatwa for.
December 13th, 2008 at 6:50 PMUsing
Mayim This goes back to a conversation that was happening on another thread….. Why in the hell do you chose to construe what Misha said as an “insult” against anything? You could as easily said the his statement minimized your grandfathers sacrifice… or “didnt do justice” , but instead you go straight to “insult”. …. I dont get it ….
December 13th, 2008 at 7:13 PMUsing
I’m not sure you should be reading too much into the word “insult”, Troy. Though if you prefer, “it minimized my grandfathers’ sacrifice” or “it didn’t do justice to my grandfathers’ deeds” would do just as well. Perhaps, like with so many other words, we use “insult” differently.
December 13th, 2008 at 7:16 PMUsing
jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery sez:
…Are you insane? Of course not. My grandfather thought that no just and loving God would let Hitler do what he did to the Jews (and others).
December 13th, 2008 at 7:25 PMUsing
mayim sez:
I would appreciate it if you would at the very least read my posts before deciding that you’d been insulted.
December 13th, 2008 at 7:26 PMUsing
Emperor Misha I sez:
I read your post, Sire. The thrust of your argument seemed to be that those with “faith” will have better morale and fight harder than those without, which seemed to convey the idea that nonbelieving soldiers– like my grandfathers– were at best second-class.
December 13th, 2008 at 7:29 PMUsing
Quoting myself there. With emphases, to make it easier to read the second time around.
What I was addressing is the sad lack of national unity in today’s society where everybody is a member of some “minority” group whose needs come before everything else, resulting in nothing being done other than endless squabbling and inane arguments ad nauseam.
It just so happens that Christianity/faith/whatever is something I’m familiar with, something that has held empires together in the past.
December 13th, 2008 at 7:34 PMUsing
Emperor Misha I sez:
Misha, when people ask my nationality, I tell them I’m scotch-irish, german, french, and english, and 100% AMERICAN!!!!
December 13th, 2008 at 7:46 PMUsing
Mayim,
Do you enter EVERY thread with your fists clenched and your teeth gritted, just ITCHING for a fight?
Jay is, without a doubt, one of the most reasonable posters here…well-steeped in history.
And, as Misha pointed out, you either didn’t read the stuff he later bolded, or you chose to ignore it.
If you DO want a fight, however, the Rotts are more than willing and able to give it…
December 13th, 2008 at 7:54 PMUsing
Yeah .. mayim.. we do use our language differently…. I chose my words carefully so that I communicate my meaning. You on the other hand communicate losely, and then expect others to intuitavely understand your “real” meaning. In general I find your ommunication skills to be primarily based upon a passive/ aggressive tone. Words have specific meaning, your “version” normally falls beyond the common usage scope…. or at least thats what you claim when you are called upon your use. Its either that, or your use (and the general interptation) is exactly as you write / wrote in which case your just one of those hyper-sensitive people that cannot differintiate between statements made specifically to them, vs general points not intended to be aggresive in nature ( which in this case, if you had utilized good reading comprehension to begin with, you would have not interpted as being “insulting” in any way shape or form.
December 13th, 2008 at 8:00 PMUsing
To the Colisseum! :em01:
December 13th, 2008 at 8:05 PMUsing
I re-read the posting, attempting to view it with a more sympathetic eye. I am not 100% sure, but it seems that what the Emperor is saying is that while individual soldiers might kick ass without a religion, religion is the most common existing “unifying factor” promoting group cohesion among groups of soldiers, and that without such a unifying factor, overall morale and cohesiveness among the Armed Forces as a whole will suffer?
On the “did your grandfather believe that Hitler was operating in God’s name” tangent: Sorry, I’ll stand by my “Are you insane?”, since that was a ridiculous question to ask. Asking such a question betrays a tremendous confusion as to how atheists and agnostics think.
December 13th, 2008 at 8:08 PMUsing
mayim sez:
no I’m quite rational….either decaffeinate or slow down and read….the…..comment before you go off on one of your tantrums.
before your vision turned an angry red, did you see where I asked that if I was wrong, then please clarify? here it is again from post #17
jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery sez:
did you see it that time?
God has absolutely NO say in what man does. He gave man free will to do with as he wants. It is up to man to follow God’s will. If a man like….oh, say….Hitler chooses to consider himself greater than God, well you know what happens…it’s usually a bad thing. Now before you fly off and feel that we are all slamming you for being a non-believer….then slow down and read this:
I don’t give a Rat’s ass what you believe, and power to you for adhering to your beliefs. But if, by practicing those beliefs, you feel empowered to tell others to cease their display of their beliefs because it offends you, then we’re going to have a BIIIIG problem.
Live and Let Live
it goes for everyone.
December 13th, 2008 at 8:09 PMUsing
LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R., Imperial Grammar Hun sez:
Thank you my friend, I’m flattered
December 13th, 2008 at 8:11 PMUsing
I agree with “live and let live”. I don’t have the slightest problem with your right to practice your religion; just keep it optional and not mandatory. I have no problem, for instance, with prayer in public schools; what bothers me is when the prayers are mandatory, or are led by teachers in an official capacity during classroom time (thereby conveying the impression that they are official school functions).
Jaybear, there were (and are) quite a few people who lost their faith in God due to the Holocaust. The basic idea is that any God that has infinite power yet chooses not to intervene during something as atrocious as the Holocaust is guilty of severe neglect (think of a parent neglecting the care of their children), and therefore is not benevolent. Since Judeo-Christian thought holds that God is, in fact, benevolent, by this logic the Judeo-Christian God does not exist– or, if he does exist, he is not worth worshipping since he has neglected and forsaken his children.
That is what led a number of people, including my grandfather, to abandon religion during or after WWII.
December 13th, 2008 at 8:20 PMUsing
It’s obvious, yet again, that you are misinterpreting God.
When my children were young, I basically had infinite power over them, yet there were times I chose not to intervene when I could have. Why? Because they needed to learn something. Sometimes the lessons were tough; they came out stronger. A loving, caring parent sometimes has to choose a path that is painful and heartbreaking, but necessary.
No one lives forever, and no one is promised that life on earth will be a cakewalk. That is NOT God’s fault. That is man’s. Those of faith who died at Hitler’s hand, if they were true believers, went on to a far more glorious existance.
December 13th, 2008 at 8:27 PMUsing
LC SkyeChild G.L.O.R., Imperial Grammar Hun sez:
What about the 6 million Jews and 6 million non-Jews (many of whom were NOT Christians)? Are they all roasting in Hell now?
December 13th, 2008 at 8:30 PMUsing
jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery @:
December 13th, 2008 at 8:30 PM:em93:
Using
I don’t believe any of us want to go that route again, Mayim. It’s been addressed already. You know how we feel about it.
And, no, I won’t email you to discuss it.
December 13th, 2008 at 8:31 PMUsing
Wasn’t going to ask you to email me.
December 13th, 2008 at 8:35 PMUsing
mayim sez:
Again you miss the point my friend, as I stated in post#30
Yes, he is a benevolent God, but he lets man determine his own course. Yes there have been atrocious things done in his name….the sack and massacre of jews, muslims, and christians in Jerusalem during the Crusaders winning back of the Holy City is but one example……
but that was Godfrey of Bouillon’s decision to let his knights run rampant, not God’s.
In case you weren’t aware of it, there have been three major reformations of the Catholic/Christian church in the thousand years since the Crusades, a fourth minor one happened in the 60’s I believe and it addressed allowing gay and female clergy into the church. Islam has not had one reformation, nor has any other religion attempted to civilize itself as much as Christianity has. Yes, the religion still has it’s faults, but they are due to man’s misinterpretation of the words and will of God, and mans skewing of the tenants of the faith to suit his own selfish aims.
I apologize for preaching here, I’m not anywhere near being the kind of Christian that should do that….I have a lot of work to do on personal flaws. But my faith is a very personal one, born of the fact that I’m convinced that God intervened to save my ass from drugs and alcohol almost 22 years ago. I did his will, and that was to get clean and sober and for that I thank him every day for it.
There’s a saying in AA that I hold very dear, it goes like this:
“I’d rather live my life as if there were a God and find out there wasn’t, than live my life as if there weren’t a God and find out there is”
December 13th, 2008 at 9:04 PMUsing
Jaybear, nobody objects to the idea of God letting his children have free will. What people object to is the idea that he doesn’t occasionally step in to help those who are the victims of other peoples’ acts. In the Bible, God intervened to help the Jews in Egypt, and that in no way negated the fact that both the Jews and the Egyptians had free will; why could he not have done the same in Germany, Poland, etc.?
And I’ve never understood AA’s “thing” about religion. There has to be a way to get people off liquor without resorting to religious rhetoric. If I was a drunk (and I’m not), I would be rather insulted if I went to a group that told me that the solution to my drinking was to pray to God.
December 13th, 2008 at 9:13 PMUsing
Though, admittedly, Christianity is almost always less harmful than drunkenness, so I guess it’s a good trade-off.
December 13th, 2008 at 9:21 PMUsing
Euuh, folks, I am an atheist, always have been, but by everything that is sacred to me, I stood,stand, and will always stand for anyone’s right to believe in whatever it is they believe in, and yes, during my 25 years of service to Canada, there was never a question or doubt about defending the very Rights, Beliefs and Freedom of All of our citizens.
It is not my place to analyze, contradict, argue or pontificate over anyone’s beliefs, but it IS my place and honor-bound duty to protect and defend those very same beliefs, as sworn as an officer to my country.
All of you, regardless of nationality or belief, I WILL DO MY HONOR-BOUND DUTY TO PROTECT, regardless of race, color or creed, believers or non-believers, right or left, as soldiers of all our freedom-loving Nations have sworn to do…
Those of you that know me, ’nuff said, those who do not, I shall stand by my oath as sworn.
December 13th, 2008 at 9:21 PMUsing
LC Hardclimber54-Imperial Chief Pilot and Aviator @:
An excellent sentiment and an excellent oath. :em04: :em69:
December 13th, 2008 at 9:25 PMUsing
*** Opens thread, see rantings of “insulted” Mayim ***
Heh, Arguing with a tree stump again guys? Ok. I’m going back to the Imperial Garage then….Have fun. :em01:
***Walks off whistling the song “Feelings”***
December 13th, 2008 at 9:42 PMUsing
mayim sez:
God intervened to help Moses and the Jews because it was his will to have Moses lead the Jews to the promised land. Read Exodus and you’ll see that
mayim sez:
treading on thin ice there, AA endorses NO religion nor does it resort to religious rhetoric. The solution to getting sober is not to pray to God but to turn your will over to a God as you understand him, meaning that any version of God that you hold,regardless of who or what it is, is totally cool. the solution has more to do with getting over yourself and getting yourself OUT of yourself, because for me….that was the root of every damned problem I had.
Again….you have missed the point, it is man doing HIS will that gets him and others into trouble.
LC Hardclimber54-Imperial Chief Pilot and Aviator sez:
Thank you sir, I would do the same for you, anytime.
December 13th, 2008 at 10:14 PMUsing
Jaybear Mayim only has the “stories” she has heard regarding AA.. no real understanding of the program. But for the record AA does not require a participant ot “beleive” in anything, they do however posit that getting and maintaining sobriety is easier when th individual allows “god” or “life” to happen as it will.. and ACCEPT life as it comes, not as an attack on the individual but just as “life happens”. What Mayim doesnt understand is that one of the symptoms of the disease is the approach to life from the perspective of a control freak and that (because it is impossible to control all aspects of life) this leads to dissatisfaction and frustration fueling the desire to escape to the “numb”.
Now with that said, I wonder when the last time she didn’t have a drop for over a week? How bout it Mayim… when was the last time you went over a 7 day period without taking a drink?
December 13th, 2008 at 11:04 PMUsing
LC TerribleTroy, Imperial Centurion sez:
Good gracious, there have been whole SEASONS where I haven’t had a drop to drink.
I am a light drinker by nature. I enjoy a good drink like almost everyone else, but I don’t drink that much, or that often.
December 13th, 2008 at 11:06 PMUsing
This is a little off-topic but I will say it anyway. I always encouraged my soldiers to go to services. I told them I didn’t care what religion they were but that I felt it was very important that they had a rock-solid relationship with that “higher power”. Having a deep, abiding faith in the Lord is one thing that helped me immeasurably in both tours as a door-kicker in Iraq and before that on active duty. Facing imminent death or violence on a daily basis isn’t a normal thing for people and I have found that those with a strong faith handled it better mentally. Personally, knowing that the Lord was going to take care of me even if I bought the farm, was a great weight lifted from my shoulders and that allowed me to merrily go about the days work. Perhaps this works on a national level, I don’t know. I just know what I have experienced.
December 13th, 2008 at 11:06 PMUsing
Oh, and by the way, five years ago today while I was on the Iranian border my fellow troublemakers in the 4 ID were capturing Saddam. The Ivy Division strikes again.
December 13th, 2008 at 11:11 PMUsing
Assassin 6
well said sir, and my thanks for a job excellently done over there :em04:
December 13th, 2008 at 11:15 PMUsing
mayim @:
That did not answer the question. When was the last time you went without a drop for a seven day period or greater. Of course you could always say ‘I dont feel like answering that question” and I will not say anything else.
December 13th, 2008 at 11:29 PMUsing
Christianity has the incomparable advantage of being True. And that is all that matters, really.
In other news: the Ace of Spades has posted this kick-ass story of our warriors victorious.
10 Green Berets Receive Silver Stars for Single Engagement, Most Awarded for One Battle Since Vietnam
—Ace
Amazing:
After jumping out of helicopters at daybreak onto jagged, ice-covered rocks and into water at an altitude of 10,000 feet, the 12-man Special Forces team scrambled up the steep mountainside toward its target — an insurgent stronghold in northeast Afghanistan.
“Our plan,” Capt. Kyle M. Walton recalled in an interview, “was to fight downhill.”
But as the soldiers maneuvered toward a cluster of thick-walled mud buildings constructed layer upon layer about 1,000 feet farther up the mountain, insurgents quickly manned fighting positions, readying a barrage of fire for the exposed Green Berets.
A harrowing, nearly seven-hour battle unfolded on that mountainside in Afghanistan’s Nuristan province on April 6, as Walton, his team and a few dozen Afghan commandos they had trained took fire from all directions. Outnumbered, the Green Berets fought on even after half of them were wounded — four critically — and managed to subdue an estimated 150 to 200 insurgents, according to interviews with several team members and official citations.
I don’t know why the Washington Post says “subdue.” Are they resorting to euphemism to make the victory more palatable to their readers? Later on we find out what “subdue” means:
By the time the battle ended, the Green Berets and the commandos had suffered 15 wounded and two killed, both Afghans, while an estimated 150 to 200 insurgents were dead, according to an official Army account of the battle. The Special Forces soldiers had nearly run out of ammunition, with each having one to two magazines left, Ford said. # # #
God bless them. What MEN.
December 14th, 2008 at 12:12 AMUsing
mayim sez:
perhaps, like with so many other words, “we” should use a dictionary so “we” say what “we” intended to communicate.
December 14th, 2008 at 9:41 AMUsing
I’m sorry, but I simply cannot agree with this. Here’s a little question: If there were a proposal for Shariah in your town, who’d you rather have on your side: Christopher Hitchens or Rowan Williams?
Lest anyone think I’m taking cheap shots here, let me remind everyone of the Rushdie affair. Now who said that the problem wasn’t a theocratic nutcases ordering the death of a novelist, but that the problem was a novelist publishing a blasphemous tome? Well, it was the Vatican, the chief Sephardic Rabbi of Israel etc.
This happened again with that business of the cartoons. While it was the anti-theist Ayn Rand Institute that took them around campus after campus showing them, while The New Individualist didn’t just show the cartoons, but put them on its cover.
Apart from the usual suspects of Chomsky et al, who else said that the US had 9/11 coming? Falwell and Robertson.
On the other hand consider the following atheists: Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, Hugh FitzGerald (remember him?), Ali Sina, Irfan Khawaja, Caroline Fourest, Pavel Kohout, Paul Berman, Oriana Fallaci…
Misha, you’re absolutely right about that, but the trouble I have with Christianity is twofold. There is simply not enough evidence for it being strong enough to fight back - else why did two thirds of Christendom get chowed down? And, more worryingly, framing this conflict like this excludes too many people. There are a billion atheists, remember, and another billion Hindus who aren’t too happy about those eighty million killed. The Sikhs have long memories, too. I’m sure there are plenty of Buddhists willing to go Kanishka on the Muslims who did that to their statues.
Are there plenty of gutless, cowardly, posturing atheists? Of course. Take a look at the Hitch addressing FFRF on youtube. But that goes also for Christians, and I mean big, powerful, established ones. Look at the Vatican thanking Muslims for bringing religion back to the continent.
Around what can we rally? Personally, the hymn to civilization that Ibn Warraq writes in Defending the West is a far more stirring call. It can also be embraced by people from around the world.
The anti-Jihad movement is the ultimate in Western myths: a rag-tag group of wildly different characters united in defense of civilization against a common enemy.
December 14th, 2008 at 9:50 AMUsing
Xystus sez:
Heh … first person here to catch that. Yea, my own name kinda amuses me.
Not sure if I can prove it … I admit that it is mostly opinion on my part. We do share one bit with both the romans and greeks … most folks are “easter” believers. And when excesses happen, it’s usually the result of an Alvin Toffler “true believer” managing to get what he desires most … power to force his beliefs on others.
This also includes Toffler grade fanatics who happen to fall into big-A Atheism.
December 14th, 2008 at 11:55 AMUsing
mayim sez:
Hmmm … even as an atheist, I know the theological answer to that one.
Free will. We are not God’s robots. A sinner bears full responsibility for his sins, he was not programmed by God before birth to commit a crime. He choses to do so.
Therefor bad people do have the ability to do bad things to good people.
The only Christian sect I know of that doesn’t go that route are the Calvinists … the folks who gave us the last witch-burning, in Scotland in 1790, I think.
December 14th, 2008 at 12:06 PMUsing
Kristopher, LC sez:
Well, duh. What turned people away from God wasn’t the idea that he allowed the Nazis to be “bad people” or do “bad things”, it’s that he allowed this to go on so long without intervening. The Pharoah of the Bible did “bad things” to the Jews, and then God intervened and saved the Jews.
God did not save the Jews of Europe. They were nearly obliterated.
December 14th, 2008 at 2:19 PMUsing
mayim sez:
well maybe he DID intervene, and maybe these guys were part of that Savior army
God works in mysterious ways ya’ know
December 14th, 2008 at 7:36 PMever think of that?
Using
Aren’t you the very same person who has something against YHWH for having done something “very bad” to the Egyptians? I figure a God that didn’t intervene on a massive scale would be something you would approve of.
At any rate, the people upset at the ‘not intervening’ bit are also the ones that generally cant grasp the ‘free will’ portion. And those people aren’t necessarily of the religious persuasion…Kristopher has grasped this rather easily, and is a self-defined Atheist, so it’s clearly not something only believers are expected to understand. Also, from what I’ve read at any rate, even when YHWH decided to show himself in NO uncertain terms and save his chosen people, they didn’t wait very long to rebel and do ridiculously stupid things quickly thereafter (What did the Jews led out of bondage by Moses do when he went up on the mountain to commune with YHWH?) There are more examples of this sort of effect. If a direct and obvious intercession doesn’t change human behavior, why bother with it? Another prideful bastion of disobedience would be enacted, another excuse (read: scapegoat) chosen, and things would carry on as they had before.
—
Beautiful, Jaybear. That’s another way to see it as well. Very nice.
December 14th, 2008 at 7:36 PMUsing
Jaybear sez:
Uhh… there weren’t very many Jews left for those guys to save. In any case, when I talked about “intervention”, I was talking about parting-the-seas, turning-the-river-to-blood, miraculous/supernatural stuff, not human actions that can be interpreted as “God’s will”.
Tyrmadris sez:
Yes, because the particular sort of “very bad” thing that he did (killing all of Egyptian firstborn sons) was wrong. God was right to intervene, but he was wrong in HOW he intervened.
December 14th, 2008 at 7:42 PMUsing
mayim sez:
By all estimates over 2/3 of the Jewish population of Europe were exterminated in the camps. Chalk it up to the denial of the great nanny state governments of the time….I include FDR and Neville Chamberlain in that club…..they were told that the camps existed and did absolutely NOTHING about it, they have some of that blood on their hands as well. Hell, Roosevelt forbade Jewish refugees from landing on American shores, he turned them away and many of them subsequently died in the camps because of that.
And tell me how parting seas and turning rivers to blood and miraculous stuff would have saved the Jews. Doesn’t it seem more plausible that he would use the hammer of the Allied armies as a tool to bring it to an end??? but that hammer had to be forged first….that’s what took so much time.
December 14th, 2008 at 7:48 PMUsing
jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery @:
So lemme get this straight: There is an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God, and he WANTED to save the Jews in WWII, but he needed the help of us pitiful sinful humans to do so– and WE screwed up his plan by not getting our act in gear quick enough to save 2/3 of the Jews in Europe?
Sorry, that doesn’t sound like evidence for the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God. It sounds like rather powerful evidence AGAINST it.
December 14th, 2008 at 8:07 PMUsing
Tyrmadris
The Nazis did “bad things” to the Jews in the ’30s and “40s, and there was no deity to “save them again”…
The Jews got led out of Egyptian bondage and very soon thereafter, returned to idols worshipping pagans. Hardly awed and grateful to some “.od” at this point, are they..?
What I find amazing is the concept of an almighty being capable of “all things” and yet has to depend on humanity to perform his dirty work… Whatever or whoever is capable of “all things” would not allow his “chosen people” to be exterminated over a period of years. By the way, are you Jewish..? Jews are the chosen people according to the Bible… How abadonned they must have felt during the centuries of being persecuted for “being the chosen ones”…
So, let me see, I am being told by the believers that .od if almighty, creator of the universe etc, etc, is all knowing and powerfull cannot stop children from being sent to the cremation ovens. Free will my oath! You can only buy so much with that coin, sorry, I ain’t buying.
Divine intercession doesn’t change human behavior, but am I to believe I’ll be burning in hell for ever because I chose to exercise free will. Human behavior has had to contend with “religious beliefs” as a way to be controlled and used. Humanity has not changed, religion notwithstanding, over the centuries. In fact, how many times did religion get used as an excuse for atrocities and horrors. Inquisition anyone? The Germans soldiers of WW2 had chaplains, the Assyrians had their gods, the Romans sacrificed to theirs before any event of note. What did it change, what did it bring? An almighty entity who chose a “people” then turn its back on same, isn’t almighty, sorry. The New Testament of the christians is a radical departure from the blood-thirsty, vengeful, bellicose .od of old, as described in the Old Testament. Yaweh, Jehovah, God, all seem to be different entities with different tastes and obligations imposed on their followers, which followers quickly get dropped at the least infractions or human failing…
Sorry, ain’t bying and no amount of arguments will ever make me change my mind. I had the “I’ll pray for you” believers leaving my door steps uttering these words, yet, they were the ones unsure of what those religious beliefs they were so kind into selling me. Religion is power over your peers, the cunning use of the simple fear of death reduced to its simplest expression, and no, I am not going to be scared into believing about a non-existent entity with the fear of “eternal damnation”. Imagine, a never-ending torture by fire from an ever-loving entity?!?!?! More control and use of fear to benefit but a few.
And yet, I will defend the very same rights of those very same believers (regardless of what church or denomation they call themselves. I know, I know, unless you’re (insert denomination here), you live in error in will burn for ever.
Please!!!
December 14th, 2008 at 8:11 PMUsing
mayim sez:
whatever……
:em98:
December 14th, 2008 at 8:24 PMUsing
:em01: :em01: :em01: I love it ! Mayim one hand wonders why god didnt “save” the Jews…. (I’m pretty sure they are still alive and well)… and on the other criticizes God.. for the saving manifestation of killing all the first borne egyptians….
We can discuss the negatives of religion from a social control and historical perspective along with atrocities committed in its name, but just like many other things don’t leave out the balance of GOOD that also comes from the practice of a peaceful religion or spirituality. After all faith is as intangible as Hope yet a whole section of our population just elected probably the weakest candidate ever to cross ou paths based upon just that concept.
In my mind true religion is the practice of positive thinking, acts, and energy with respect to the creator, the provider of the spark of life, the light, love, harmony, BALANCE.
December 14th, 2008 at 10:07 PMUsing
LC TerribleTroy, Imperial Centurion sez:
Well, yes. What on earth did all of those innocent Egyptian babies do to deserve being murdered?
December 14th, 2008 at 10:24 PMUsing
What makes you think they were all “babies”? It was firstborn as in ELDEST as in inheriters, not last born….. Logic Mayim….. Logic….. try it … its fun.
So .. if you were God .. what would a just punishment have been for the Nazi’s and those that supported them or even those that knew and did nothing?
December 14th, 2008 at 10:34 PMUsing
LC TerribleTroy, Imperial Centurion sez:
And most of those “firstborn” had little to nothing (I’m leaning towards the latter) to do with Pharoah’s decisions. So why the fuck did they deserve punishment for Pharoah’s unwillingness to let the Jews go? WTF, man, do you religious types not UNDERSTAND the concept that every individual is responsible for THEIR OWN misdeeds, not those of others?
Punishment? I don’t know. I’m not as concerned with punishing the guilty as I am with protecting the innocent. On that note, why couldn’t God have just brought the Jews back to life? Or, better yet, why couldn’t he have “smote” the Nazis the instant they raised their guns to shoot the first Jew? He seemed to have no problems “smiting” thousands of people at a time in the Bible; he seems to have dropped the habit around 2000-3000 years ago, though…
For fuck’s sake, the guy is supposed to be omnipotent. There are any number of things he could have done to intervene, and again, in Biblical times, the Bible claims that God had no problem at all intervening in all kinds of wacky supernatural ways (smiting whole cities, parting the seas, causing manna to rain from heaven, turning water into wine, feeding huge crowds with a handful of loaves and fishes, turning a woman into a pillar of salt…), but he seems to have been strangely absent when he was most needed by his people– MY people– in our hour of need. Why couldn’t he have just whipped up a miracle or two and gotten rid of the Nazis once and for all?
Because [a] he is a jerk or [b] he doesn’t exist.
I’m leaning towards [b].
December 14th, 2008 at 10:42 PMUsing
mayim sez:
AH.. so the Pharoah makes a decision and it magically enacts itself… or does his followers do his bidding? Seems to me its the later and that makes them culpable. Did you think that maybe he smote the “innocent” first borne as a method of sending a message to the egyptians to not teach thier children to subjugate others?
And then (according to you) he was supposed to swope down and stop the Nazi’s as soon as they raised arms against the Jews. Did it occur to you that maybe the Jews were in the process of turning thier backs upon god again (as they had done in the past) and/or that inorder to maintain their “special” status they had to remain a small population?
You know just because there are things YOU dont understand (or wont allow yourself to understand) doesnt necessarily mean that thing is bad, or doesnt exist.
December 15th, 2008 at 12:13 AMUsing
mayim @:
First, G-d isn’t a murderer. Second, it was in response to Pharoh’s policy of drowning the male babies of the Jews (Exodus 1:22) in an effort to kill the one who his astrologers foretold would grow to destroy him and his kingdom. reference
The ten plagues were a measure for measure retribution from G-d to the Egyptians for what they did to the Jews over 400 years of slavery. They made us fetch water, so the river turned to blood. They made us tend their cattle, so the cattle died. They made us harvest their fields, the locusts destroyed their crops, etc.
During the Passover meal (seder) when we read the section of the ten plagues, we spill a drop of wine, usually with our fingers, from our cups at the mention of each of the plagues, to commemorate that even though the Egyptians made the lives of the Jews utter misery, we join with G-d in mourning the loss of his creations even though it was a necessary step to free the Jews.
You can’t read the Bible like a Harlequin Romance novel. Context is everything.
You really need to do some research on the Internet, mayim. While some people here like to bash you for your reflexive liberalism, I and I’m sure there are others who get annoyed that you take a contrary stand out of simple ignorance. Case in point: there are thousands of stories about miracles of survival during the Holocaust. Just google “holocaust miracle survival stories.” Don’t make us do your research for you.
As for understanding G-d reasons for the Holocaust, why exactly do you think G-d is going to reveal His reasons to you? Have you done something outstandingly pietous or noteworthy that would warrant that particular level of revelation? I — and hundreds of more learned men and women than I — certainly haven’t, and none of us are “leaning towards [b].” There are ten steps towards achieving prophecy. The first step is the be zealous for G-d. “Leaning towards [b]” isn’t going to get you to step one. For more research, google “nevuah” which is the Hebrew transliteration for “prophecy” Or try the Hebrew wikipedia article.
Here’s a “reason” (more of a justification) for you, if only my own, and certainly not an attempt to justify His reason: G-d needed the Holocaust to occur to advance the creation of the State of Israel. Without the enormous sympathies created by the world’s guilt over the indifference to the murder (here’s the word being used properly) of six million Jews, Israel wouldn’t have been able to be created by the UN. Ben Gurion also bought the votes of the South American countries by blackmailing them that he knew they were hiding Nazi war criminals. Another is that it allowed the United States to become a superpower. Another is that it heralds the coming of the Moshiach (Messiah). Another is that it was a punishment for allowing Chamberlain’s liberalism to infect world politics.
The point is that while there exists a reason, we aren’t worthy enough to be “in” on it. So we’re stuck with justifications.
December 15th, 2008 at 12:27 AMUsing
LC Hardclimber54-Imperial Chief Pilot and Aviator @:
Let me oversimplify. The Scout’s Handbook — are you familiar? Teaches camping, knots, cooking, knife safety, orienteering, etc. Put me in the woods alone, without that knowledge, and I’ll probably revert to a feral existence and eventually die without shelter, clothes, or food. Put me in with a guidebook, and I can be guaranteed to survive albeit a meager, utilitarian, functional life. But, put me in the woods with a troop of scouts and with an experienced scoutmaster, and I will have an exciting, enjoyable and educational experience learning things that aren’t in the handbook that have been passed down from previous generations of scouts and scoutmasters.
Religion’s the same. No guidance, and you exist on your own deciding on the spot “Good” and “Bad.” With a guidebook, you’ll at least have the basics, but you really need the full experience of co-religionists and a spiritual leader to give you the greatest benefit.
I am one of those people who are authority-phobic. You know, the ones who grip the steering wheel a little tighter when they see a cop car, who got sent to the principal’s office and became deaf-mute.. Even so, because I understand my religion not as being about control and power, but about how I am supposed to behave and how to better myself, I feel it guides my decisions and makes me a better person, the way G-d wants me to be.
If your worldview of religion is about control and power, then you’ve had horrible spiritual leaders who themselves were afraid of punishment (one can only wonder why) and never gave you the other side of the story. I’m sorry that the fear of the punishment rather than the greatness of the reward is why you reject religion.
Christians really have to burn forever? That sucks. We only get eleven month, and that’s for the worst of the worst.
December 15th, 2008 at 1:03 AMUsing
jmaimarc sez:
Oh, that’s right, I forgot. If a man kills an innocent person, it’s murder, but if God does it, it’s JUST AND RIGHT. :em01:
You don’t need to reference that; I learned the story in Hebrew school like any other Jewish child. But what the hell is your point? That two wrongs make a right? “They killed some of our innocents, so we killed some of their innocents in response! SEE? NOW WE’RE EVEN!
Seriously, do you religious types even PRETEND to have a moral compass any more?
You insensitive fucking monster. The Nazis MURDERED six million of my people, and you’re pointing me at “miracle” stories of a small handful surviving against all odds? This is like those morons who point to the “miracle” stories where a whole neighbourhood burns to the ground except one house, and saying “See? God spared that one house!”– while ignoring the fact that “God” also let all the OTHER houses burn.
No, nothing particularly noteworthy. I have saved a couple of lives, and I HAVEN’T taken any (in stark contrast to YHWH the Bloodthirsty, who seems to have made quite a hobby out of “smiting” anyone who looked at him funny back in Biblical days).
Oh, man. This is getting way too “religious wacko” for my tastes. What’s next? Are you going to tell me how I can purge myself of Body Thetans so that I can become Clear? Maybe you’ll instruct me in how the prophecies of Ti and Do can help bring me to the Level Above Human, but that I must first shed my Earthly Vehicle and travel to comet Hale-Bopp… Or maybe you’ll tell me that I am too stupid to understand Nature’s Harmonious Time Cube.
Or maybe you’ll just grasp my ear and tell me that my Pah is strong, and urge me to walk with the Prophets. :em01:
Seriously. “Achieving prophecy”? Do people even still talk like that? It’s the twenty-first bloody century, and you’re babbling on about “achieving prophecy”? Do you realise how much of a backwards religious lunatic you sound like?
Just because our Islamic enemies are permanently stuck in the 10th century doesn’t mean those of us here in Judeo-Christian land have to be permanently stuck in a time-warp too, back to the days when people believed in hocus-pocus old prophecies and special revelations from an invisible man who lives in the sky!
Excuses, excuses, and more excuses. Look, if God loves us, God would not let such horrific things happen to us. It’s negligence in the extreme. Would you let your children walk into a trap and die? Of course not. There is absolutely NO excuse for a supposedly omnipotent and supposedly benevolent God doing the same thing. I’m sorry, you cannot justify that level of negligence, especially not by a being who’s supposed to be able to stop it all with a mere thought. There is NO excuse. If it was a human doing it, it would be inexcusable; since it’s a God doing it, it’s even more inexcusable.
If God is our father, then it’s about time for the Child Protective Services goons to come and take us off his hands, as he is most assuredly the most negligent parent ever.
December 15th, 2008 at 1:15 AMUsing
This is just my take on this.
We were children then. He gave use the rules and let us grow. At first it was easy, “Don’t eat the fruit of that tree, everything else is cool”. We couldn’t do that and we learned there were consequences. Then the rules got a little tougher, we screwed the pooch again and there were consequences.
My parents did the same with me. Gave me rules and let me go. As long as I recognized the limits of what was right, no problem, but they let me learn for myself that when I pushed beyond their guidelines most likely something bad was going to happen, and it usually did. Some lessons were not so bad, but some were very…uncomfortable.
If you remember the story, this was that last plague on Egypt and was the consequence of Pharaoh’s ordering the first born of all Jews be killed by drowning in the river Nile. Tried to get your attention with the hocus-pocus palor tricks, but …
2000-3000 years. One would think we would have listened and learned something over that span. If G-d protects us from all mistakes, we learn nothing. Hey! We can do what we want and the Almighty will wipe away the debris and make it OK. No harm. Let’s do it again.
This is a major point of contention here. I’m going to guess that wasn’t what you meant. :em02: Punishing the guilty, to me, is equally important as protecting the innocent. If it isn’t learned that harming another is going to have kickback, we don’t grow up.
December 15th, 2008 at 1:38 AMUsing
how long were the Jews as slaves in Egypt?
December 15th, 2008 at 1:59 AMUsing
apollo861 @ 73:
The Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt for at least 80 years (Wikipedia, hey it’s easy)
December 15th, 2008 at 2:10 AMUsing
Hmm, I was being rhetorical, but yeah, originally i thought it was about 200 years.
December 15th, 2008 at 2:49 AM“at least 80 years” is a better way of phrasing it since no one really knows how long.
Using
apollo861 @ 75:
Rhetorical sometimes doesn’t come across the net. I was bored and I actually learned something.
December 15th, 2008 at 2:56 AMUsing
mayim @:
Straw man #1:
I think G-d is a better judge of innocence and guilt. Better than you are, at any rate. Just because your tunnel-vision world view says, “well he’s splattered with blood and holding a machete, but nobody saw him hack that journalist’s head off, so there’s reasonable doubt” doesn’t mean he’s innocent.
That I provide citations isn’t only for you, there are others who read this who might like to see the original source. Oh, and the earth and stars don’t revolve around you either.
Straw man #2:
We didn’t kill anyone. G-d exacted retribution, midah k’neged midah on an entire nation of Egyptians who were either engaged or complicit in the slavery of the Jews. In fact, Devarim (Deuteronomy) 32:35 explicitly states, “Vengeance is Mine, and recompense, against the time when their foot shall slip;”
Straw man #3:
Again, I don’t know HaShem’s reasons for what he does, and I’m in no position to demand an accounting of His decisions. The Jews suffered 200 years as slaves in Egypt, to be taken out as His chosen people. The second event was predicated on the first happening. Reach into your Bible studies and review the vow that HaShem gave to Avraham. Bereshit (Genesis) 15:13. I don’t know HaShem’s reason for the Holocaust, but I can see that the State of Israel couldn’t have been created without it. It’s called historical perspective.
That I choose to look at the positive without getting hung up on the negative, and that I can accept that all things happen for the Greater Good, even the bad things, is because that what my religion teaches me to do. It also teaches that some questions are simply unanswerable. In Talmudic discourse, an unsolved question is given the answer “teiku” which means that Moshiach will teach us the right answer when the time comes.
The name-calling is simply infantile.
Straw man #4:
Allow me to refresh your memory. You said:
… and I sound like the religious lunatic? You’re looking for the über-miracle, I’m saying there were many smaller, hidden miracles, and your response is “those aren’t the miracles I was talking about.”
G-d doesn’t exist simply to impress you with flashy miracles. Again, earth, stars… it’s not about you.
True story: My son just lost his ipod nano yesterday. Busted his hump all summer to buy it himself. He says it was stolen out of his bag at school. Whatever. I told him not to take it to school, he didn’t listen to me. Now it’s gone. Now, either a) I, as his father, miraculously “rain down” another $135 for a new one, or b) tell him tough luck, you didn’t listen, Bad Things Happen to Good People. I was omniscient enough to know that if he brought it to school, it would disappear. I told him the rule not to bring it. He exhibited his free will, and now he has to face the consequences. So now either I’m a merciful father who teaches his child that no matter what he does his Father will bail him out, which will make him utterly dependent on “miraculous” bailouts, or I’m a negligent child abuser who won’t lift a finger to help his child who didn’t listen in the first place. How about, I gave him the tools, and he’s a big boy, and horrific things happen to good people.
As far as the Holocaust, I’ll admit, my previous wording was a bit soft, because I thought I should be polite. How about this: G-d wrote this whole book about moving to Israel. Called it the Bible. Wrote a second volume about living in Israel, called it The Prophets. Wrote a third in the trilogy, poems about how cool it is to be a Jew in Israel. Called that one the Writings. Told us Bad Things would happen if we didn’t behave, we’d get kicked out. We didn’t listen, we got kicked out. Twice. Got spread out over the whole world, but kept reading those books. Jews had been milling around in Europe for centuries doing a whole lot of reading, a whole lot of NOT moving to Israel. Didn’t get the message in Spain, England (twice), or France. G-d knew that Hitler was coming in 1938 (He’s omniscient, of course he knew). Tried to get us out of Europe for hundreds of years. Sent us messengers (Nachmanides), sent us financiers (Rothchild), sent us warnings (Dreyfus). Now you say it’s G-d fault they didn’t listen? I suppose you think the rape victim was asking for it too?
Am I blaming the victim? Yes. Same as I would blame you for getting mugged in a back alley on a Saturday night, because you didn’t belong there. Your momma told you not to be there, and you didn’t listen? That’s your fault.
PS I don’t know how many lives I’ve saved. I’ve brought four into this world, though. Does that count? I don’t really need an answer to that. Not from you.
December 15th, 2008 at 2:56 AMUsing
http://judaism.about.....eegypt.htm
December 15th, 2008 at 3:03 AMUsing
Emperor Misha I sez:
I am late to party, (and ignoring all the ensuing bullshit that seems to be happening more frequently) but I have to give props to the Emperor for that gem. Fucking A, Sire :em69:
December 15th, 2008 at 4:06 AMUsing
I could respond to every paragraph of jmaimarc’s little screed, but this thread has already been dragged too far off-topic ever since I mentioned my grandfather’s religious epiphany in WWII.
So I won’t respond, except, in the name of my six million dead ancestors, this one cannot go without being pointed out:
QFT: jmaimarc blames the Jews for the Holocaust (emphasis my own):
You disgust me, sir. You disgust me, and somewhere, six million of my people are rolling over in their graves.
December 15th, 2008 at 8:31 AMUsing
And now, getting back on topic:
Emperor Misha I sez:
Agreed. Agreed 100%, 1000%. (It is worth pointing out, though, that “rationality” and “faith in the supernatural” are practically antonyms.) And I agree 100% that Western civilisation is the most, well, “civilised” of all.
Part of the genius of America is that it has no state church (see also: the Establishment Clause), and thus that, while the creation of our nation was informed by many general “Judeo-Christian” values, it has deliberately withheld from endorsing or requiring a specific religious faith, or even from requiring a religious faith at all. As an agnostic of Ashkenazi Jewish descent, I am every bit as much an American as you (a Christian of Danish descent) are. That is part of what makes America strong– the fact that it is, in fact, a “melting pot” where people of all faiths and all nationalities together become part of the great mass of people that together call themselves “American”.
Okay. So what you are really preaching for here is unity. You’re saying that people in general (or soldiers in specific? Either way…) shouldn’t be bickering over religious issues. That’s fine.
But how does this tie back to your original point, that “you can’t fight a religion without having one yourself”? Have you changed your mind, softened your stance somewhat? You now seem to be saying “you can’t fight a religion without having strong national unity and a sense of shared values”, which is something I can agree with.
December 15th, 2008 at 8:42 AMUsing
Ya Know.. You try to have a polite discourse with somebody, and what do you get? Instead of a simple “I strongly disagree” …. name calling like “moron” and “you disgust me”. Mayim’s anger with GOD is palapable. And thats her problem… my problem is that I am getting sick and fucking tired of her. At this point.. what does she bring to the table? She is not well enough written nor educated on her “positions” to provide food for thought. Outside of being a “unusual character” I’m not sure she has any usefull contributions for the REALM. And it is because of this, that I am now leaning toward writing her off as a participant.
I’m done…
December 15th, 2008 at 8:49 AMUsing
LC TerribleTroy, Imperial Centurion @:
jmaimarc blamed the Holocaust on the Jews. Ordinarily I would apologise for insults and name-calling, but in this case, “you disgust me” is around the most “polite” I could be.
Incidentally, there is no “polite” way to say “those six million dead Jews? They had it coming.” Jmaimarc’s was just somewhat less profanity-laced than those of, say, Stormfront, or Vanguard News Network, or the KKK, or the Nation of Islam, or al-Qaeda.
I shall make no apologies for telling this individual that he disgusts me.
Incidentally, just to point it out, politeness is far from the currency of the Realm. (I was the one who, in recognition of this fact, created the imperial Insult Generator.) In my years here, I have been called any number of names.
December 15th, 2008 at 8:53 AMUsing
So try actually reading what I say, and not just seeing an insult and going “OMG, Mayim’s going batshit again.” This blog is supposed to be pro-Jew and pro-Judaism, to the point that there is a shield bearing the Mogen David on the site masthead. You have a problem with me telling someone who blames the Holocaust on the Jews that he disgusts me?
Methinks you’re on the wrong site.
December 15th, 2008 at 9:01 AMUsing
You wear the deaths of six million kedoshim like a grotesque badge of honor, but honestly, what have you ever done for them? What have you done to perpetuate their memory? Have you had any children to replace the 1.5 million who suffered at the Nazi’s hands? Should I take a ride up to Jerusalem to check out your name on the founders’ wall at Yad Vashem? Have you even been to the Jewish State without taking a Peace Now “Real Israel” tour? Do you think glancing at your synagogue’s Holocaust memorial plaque as you leave — the one time a year you might go, — or your widescreen edition of Schindler’s List really count?
Mayim, please. Your people? You denigrate their sacrifice by turning your back on the morals and values they died for, sling insults at those of us who perpetuate and embrace the religion they were tortured for and question the existence of the G-d they prayed to as the gas filled their lungs. You smugly dismiss anyone who holds a dissenting opinion as a religious fanatic, and you demand reasons as if you’re somehow entitled to them, then froth at the mouth in a vulgar and incoherent fit when you’re given one.
Why would anyone want to have any sort of discourse with you, real or virtual? You’re pedestrian, evasive, bombastic, puerile, and your ability to twist my phrasing is nothing short of unimpressive. We can all read what I wrote, I just don’t think you did. I didn’t blame the Holocaust on the Jews. I suggested — because you demanded a reason — that perhaps the Jews of Europe ignored the warning signs to get out of the way of the coming Holocaust. I have no grand insights on G-d’s reasons, I can only voice one possible reason that I came up with, given my limited, human understanding. If you have a better reason for the Holocaust, or if you happen to know G-d’s own reason as related directly to you by Him, then by all means share it; I’d be delighted to be wrong.
December 15th, 2008 at 9:40 AMUsing
jmaimarc sez:
Bullshit. Your words on this subject were exceptionally plain, quite literal, and need no “interpretation”. No “twisting” is necessary. Either renounce them or STFU, but your EXACT words were:
jmaimarc sez:
You can’t get much more clear than that.
You specifically said that you are blaming the victims of the Holocaust for their own demise. Either take it back and apologise, or you don’t have a goddamned leg to stand on.
December 15th, 2008 at 10:22 AMUsing
Incidentally, I’ve done quite a bit for my people. When I lived in the midwest, I was the “token Jew” in so many groups, and I taught a great many people about basic Jewish beliefs (”No, Jews do not believe that Jesus is the saviour”.. “No, Jews do not celebrate Christmas…” “Yes, Jews do believe in monogamy…” “Yes, Jews do believe in marriage…” “No, Jews do not believe that the Messiah has come yet…”). I was one of the top students in my History of Anti-Semitism class. Years ago– when I was not an agnostic but an avowed atheist!– I wrote a prize-winning essay on the subject of ‘Righteous Gentiles’ that was read out loud at the Orlando JCC in observation of Yom HaShoah.
What about denouncing anti-Semitism whenever and wherever I saw it, up to and including when the Nation Of Islam came to my college campus and I had to fight to get them expelled? Does that help?
How about the two or three people who have decided to convert to Judaism in part due to having known me? Oh, and the people who have credited me with saving them from suicide? Two are Jewish.
I may not believe in “HaShem”, but I’ve certainly done plenty to help the cause of the Jewish people.
December 15th, 2008 at 10:37 AMUsing
by the gods…
Go blame the lack of a better word.
In jmaimarc’s example, the victim is at “fault” for not heeding the advice to avoid dark alleys at night.
It’s as if the victim brought it upon themselves.
But it is not to say the mugger or whoever is not at fault for commiting the crime. They are, and will be punished.
So, there is a difference in the context of the word ‘fault’ when applied to each one of the parties.
It’s like being for open borders and amnesty (oh the poor illegals), and then when they start costing the state, taking away jobs and everything, and sometimes the crime rate goes up, those who supported them start whining they are evil everything is their fault, when in fact, we could have avoided all that by being prudent. Yes, each suffering the illegals cause is their fault. And yes, I sympathise with the victims. But those who were ‘feeling sorry for them’ were also at fault.
if you can’t get it, you need to walk away and think on it again.
So as jmairmarc points out, it could be that God was punishing the Jews for something they did prior, and was using the nazis as the tools.
December 15th, 2008 at 10:55 AMYou asked why, and that’s a plausible reason. Might not be the one, but possible.
Although I might argue, it’s not that God is punishing the Jews directly, as much as removing (or rather, limiting) his protection.
Using
1) Anecdoctal
Well, I want to believe you, and I do, but yeah. That’s life on the net.
Whatever it is, you can’t prove it, but then if you really did those things, don’t get hung up on the skepticism of others.
Just saying.
2) Thanks. (For helping people)
December 15th, 2008 at 11:05 AMUsing
Did He? In Napoleon’s case, I mean.
It’s a bit chilly in Russia this time of year, or so I hear.
EDIT: As to the more recent conflict, for all the condemnation by the secularists (and I oftentimes count myself among them, depending on how the day strikes me) of “religious fundamentalism,” Islamofascism is pretty much batting 1.000 against avowedly godless or fashionably agnostic opponents.
December 15th, 2008 at 11:33 AMUsing
I find the thousands of human beings of every conceivable combination of ethnicity and creed, who gave their lives to the construction of modernity, to be more than sufficiently inspirational, myself. Their sacrifices will not be undone as long as I’m breathing.
December 15th, 2008 at 12:59 PMUsing
Belief is what you fight for. Freedom, liberty, home, hearth, guns, hooters, internet porn, the right to be the biggest asshole on the block, whatever. It is differentiated from Faith, which which grants you a unique perspective on the fight, and may keep you in it long after a self-described “rational” person will tuck their tail between their legs and go home. Faith is a belief in the unseen and unknown that you can accomplish the seemingly impossible.
December 15th, 2008 at 2:57 PMUsing
TerribleTroy
Awww cmon Troy, don’t you remember what a belligerant asshole I was when I first got on this blog but yall learned to like me and I softened up abit. Ok, she’s abit rough around the edges but was I any different? Heck I can still be a belligerant pain in the ass sometimes but you have grown to accept me, why not Mayim?
Sure, there are some parts of her rants that I find……….well abit over the top but I find some of her positions to be things that I agree with some things I don’t, but be honest do you and I always see things eye to eye? Hell no,I seem to remember us having quite afew heated debates in the past, actually come to think of I dont think there is a single man or woman here I haven;t rubbed the wrong way at least once…. or possible a hundred times . Yet at the end of it all you all ended up liking me. I’m sure Mayim will grow on you too.
December 15th, 2008 at 5:15 PMUsing
SL, you don’t know its history.
This…whatever it is…first appeared here three or four years ago under the nom de plume of Caspian. It was a whiny little pot full o’ piss who hijacked threads right & left with its bleating about how things weren’t fair for it because it was a tranny lesbo, and nothing’s changed - it’s still a whiner, and a thread hijacker.
It wore out its welcome three years ago here, and it’s on the verge of doing it again.
December 15th, 2008 at 6:40 PMUsing
Ah, so,
I remember that flyshit inspector Darth.
‘Splains a lot.
The idea of that growing on me is,, disturbing.
December 15th, 2008 at 7:46 PMUsing
Moral ceritude keeps you going during a long hard fight.
The moral knowledge that your enemies are not just opposed to you or have a different culture from you, but they are also EVIL.
Secularists have produced through their moral relativism a practical disarmament of much of the West, where political leaders can’t succintley state why a culture that allows women to run for office and hold power is SUPERIOR to one that stones women to death for dressing improperly.
The West is superior to the barbarians that howl for it’s destruction, but due to it’s secular ennui it can’t seem to rouse itself much in it’s own defense.
The first thing you have to enumrate in a war is why you should win it. And why you are fighting those people on the other side.
Not only is the West without a consensus on this, it’s leaders spend an awful lot of time apologizing and kow-towing to the enemy and apologizing for there being any conflict in the first place.
The West will win it’s war with radical Mohammedism when it stops apologizing for being more advanced and superior.
December 15th, 2008 at 9:50 PMUsing
Darth Bane sez:
Of COURSE we’re superior. But we aren’t superior because “our God can beat up their God”; we’re superior because our culture is more fair, just, and tolerant– all properties of secularism.
You seem to think that secularism precludes the belief that one culture can be “better” or “worse” than the other, but I’m around as virulently anti-religion as you can get, and I KNOW that our culture is far superior to theirs.
December 15th, 2008 at 9:55 PMUsing
The first mistake would be the belief that there truly is a distinct difference between “radical” Islam and Islam proper, when the real difference is one of timing and dedication. As in “The difference between a muslim and a radical muslim is that the former isn’t the latter yet.”
The fair, just, and tolerant wouldn’t be possible without our God. I know you would like to believe otherwise, but that is just how it is.
December 15th, 2008 at 10:12 PMUsing
Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur sez:
Ri-i-i-i-ight, which is why the more “religious” states are also the states less likely to be friendly to freaks like me.
December 15th, 2008 at 10:14 PMUsing
I’m not going to argue with you. I’m sorry your hatred of God, an omnipotent being who knows the universe and everything in it with the knowledge that only its creator would have has laid down rules that you don’t agree with and therefore, you hate your creator. It isn’t the most mature reaction one might expect, but since you seem to be happy with it, knock yourself out. As for the rest of us who choose to attempt to live by these rules, since we recognize that they is wisdom in doing so, we understand that just because some one wants to do a thing does not make it a good idea, and that saying no doesn’t necessarily make us intolerant. If everyone was free to do anything they wanted, the result would be anarchy. There are lines and boundaries. Some lines are there for everyone’s benefit, and some are there for the benefit of a few. You bitch and whine about your right to love whomever you want. This Christofacist for one does not care what you do outside of my sight. Girl on girl, guy on guy, girl on girl on guy on dog, I.Don’t.Care. I have bigger fish to fry…like a Congress that has abdicated its duties and embraced full-blown socialism at the same time. Like approximately half of my country conceding it birthright to a government more concerned with power than preserving the Constitution. Like a group of government powered thieves who are getting me into yet another fine mess and making sure that I can’t do a damn thing about it. Do I think your urges break God’s law? Absolutely. Do I believe that gives me the right to ‘punish’ it? No. My God is big enough to take care of his own business, and in his own time, which means if not in this life, then in the next. However, that does not relieve me of the opportunity or the duty to participate in the democratic process to try to preserve his law within our own, or to conform to it in my own household. As I repeatedly tell my 9 year old, “You have to control yourself first. Only then, can you begin to truly lead others.”
I cannot tell you how to live. That is decided collectively to a very large extent, but I do not have to sanction how you live either. And for all the Christofacist Oppression you and the rest of the GLBT community face under our horrible regime, consider, just for a minute, what you might expect in a loverly place like Iran. The rule for the Christofacist is love the sinner but hate the sin, not hate the God who declares the sin, and let it color your view of everything under the sun.
Our law and culture are truly the best expression of fair, just, and tolerant that you are likely to find anywhere on the planet, and if you believe otherwise, then perhaps you should relocate yourself to a nation that you believe better embodies it.
December 15th, 2008 at 10:46 PMUsing
You contradict yourself.
Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur sez:
…
So, you don’t believe in punishing us Evil Sinner types… except that you want to pass laws that enforce Biblical morality on us.
Wait, that sounds suspiciously like wanting to punish us after all.
Make up your mind.
And the comparison to Iran is hilarious. Congratulations: Christianity is not as evil as Islam. Want a gold medal?
It is VERY telling that every time someone on this site wants to compare America to other countries, they deliberately pick the worst sorts of countries. How about comparing America to, say, Canada, or the UK, or the Netherlands, or Finland? Not exactly third-world shitholes, and they are far less religious than here.
December 15th, 2008 at 10:51 PMUsing
mayim @ 101:
Actually we do, quite often.
Odd you brought up the Netherlands. Just this afternoon I read about their “experiment” in the UK Times:
The Dutch are rethinking their famously liberal polices on legalised brothels, prostitution and soft drugs, such as magic mushrooms and cannabis, amid fears of growing crime and social decline.
And IIRC Canada just tried to elect a more conservative gov’t, only to have the losing parties form a coalition to subvert the popular vote. There NHS is falling apart. They spent 100 of millions trying to register guns…didn’t work and had to abandon that.
Britain gets flogged here regularly, their solcialistic policies are dragging down that once fine nation. Gun control didn’t work to reduce violence, so now they are banning knives. There are now 1 street camera for every 7 people in the country. The NHS is a shamble.
Finland….makes the Netherlands look sane.
December 16th, 2008 at 12:00 AMUsing
Hardclimber:
Ah yes. The aforementioned Biblical plagues and such wonderful examples as Sodom and Gamorrah are clearly blatant examples of a deity getting humans to do his ‘dirty work’.
You confuse capability with intent. What said deity would be capable of doing and what it would choose to do are entirely different things, just as what a HUMAN is capable of doing and what they choose to do are different as well.
BTW: Please show me where the Jews have been completely wiped out. Can’t? Interesting, that.
Awww. How cute. If I didn’t know better, I’d think you were trying to be insulting. Perhaps those decades in the wilderness served a certain purpose. Perhaps, if one is a believer in such things, the ‘chosen people’ must spend several spans of time in a more metaphorical ‘wilderness’.
No. That’s the strawman you so carefully built getting torched by the fires of your anger.
A) I believe in no such thing.
B) It’s not the use of free will, but the choices made by it and actions taken with it that would make such a determination, at least according to the Bible.
At least you can accept that religion has been used as the scapegoat in these things. Whenever nasty people have done terrible things, they invariably shift the blame to some abstract concept or though pattern to excuse the terrible choices they themselves made.
You just keep going, don’t you? If you reworded ‘isn’t almighty’ to ‘isn’t all-loving’ or ‘all-forgiving’, you might have the merest shreds to begin making a point. As it is, you’re still rambling about how choosing NOT to do something must mean the chooser is INCAPABLE of doing it.
I don’t write all this to change your mind, but I would at least appreciate it if you sorted out your own opposing argument in some logical fashion.
I see. For you, it isn’t the logic. It’s being afraid that you might fall under someone else’s control, that your mind might be subjugated by someone more intelligent, cunning, or willful than you. Your statements make a twisted kind of sense when illuminated by this. Unfortunately, that you have such fear or hatred and thus oppose religion out of hand with such venom, at the cost of your reasoning capabilities, means you are still susceptible to such mental manipulation… usually by people who merely have to tell you the opposite of what you fear to get you to restrict your own actions. Interesting. You might want to insulate yourself against such with increase self-knowledge.
In that, you retain a nobility I can respect, even if you are as anti-theistic as certain other regulars.
December 16th, 2008 at 12:53 AMUsing
strong>Mayim
Heh. I see. You are the arbiter of all that is right and wrong. Thus, that there could be anyone, whether a living human or the concept of a deity, that could be considered a higher authority than you… that must sting. Why is it you seem to believe that your definition of right and wrong is superior to everyone elses?
It said ‘firstborn sons’, not ‘babies’. No doubt some where babies, but most were adults. Considering the decreed slaughter of Jewish infants (specifically babies) that had happened decades earlier, I find it amusing you try to pick on the side of those who follow YHWH, as opposed to those who followed Re-Horakhty and Ma’at.
Also note that the Jews were a SLAVE RACE. Their entire people were enslaved and owned, as property, by the Egyptians. Where’s the outcry?
MURDER is the unlawful killing of one human by another. Please tell me how YHWH could be a murderer considering the definition of the word? Note that the standard anti-theistic strawman screed of equating God with a ‘invisible man in the sky’ is a fallacious argument for numerous reasons.
It would help if you actually knew what the words you use actually MEAN.
Well, if you read to the end of the books, apparently God intends to do just that, an unstated period of time far into the future. But that’s what taking things out of context gets you, I suppose.
The answer’s not very nice. Do you really want to know?
Those who willingly use other humans as property are not innocent. Those who support such a system are not innocent, either. I detest slavery of any sort, what about you?
You call them ‘your people’. I doubt they would be so accepting of you. Tell me, where are the Nazis now, exactly? Because, last time I checked, the Jews were still around. And yes, as you yourself pointed out, all the ‘really big’ obvious sky-opening, city-destroying miracles stopped around two thousand years ago and the small, tiny, intimate personal ones are the ones that were left.
Here’s a question for you, oh self-proclaimed Jew: What is Sheol?
OK… you get geek points for the DS9 reference. I’ll give you that.
I dunno… the people who studied the very interesting timing on the return of the state of Israel might be rather convincing.
I thought you said the way to reach you was with logic and not belittling you? Hmm. Hypocrisy, much?
Remember that line, if you ever have children. You’d better watch them every second of their lives, stopping them immediately should they do even the slightest wrong. You’ll need to carry a weapon at all times and be willing to use it on someone who even LOOKS like they might mess with your child. Every waking and sleeping moment you will have to be there to micromanage his, her, or their lives. Because, failing this, you are a hypocrite of the highest order for having expected this of a deity you claim to have once believed in. When you take away every single choice except for the one YOU want, what kind of life is that for your child? Remember, that should you blink, should you make even the SLIGHTEST mistake and harm befall your child, you have failed in the eyes of your own point of view.
December 16th, 2008 at 1:01 AMUsing
Which returns us to the point I was making. You hate God because his law is contrary to your desire. Waa, waa, waa. My child might want to play in the street. MY law says No to that, too, no matter how much he might stamp his foot and insist I hate him. I’m really having trouble seeing how that isn’t like your particular temper tantrum here.
See, once again, the niggling little problem of the mote in your eye. Christianity isn’t evil at all, and no amount of stamping your feet because you cannot gain its approval will change that. You keep the gold. We Christofacists have a different idea of treasures worth having.
I could be direct and say that I simply chose the example that should be obvious to even you, the Queen of the Deliberately Obtuse. But since your moving the goalposts doesn’t change the point, I’ll play your game for a minute.
SoCal did a pretty good job addressing your examples. I’d like to add a bit to his words on Canada. I made a special study of the country as an Honors Poli-Sci student at the University of Michigan. I served as an intern in the House of Commons in the spring and summer of 1993. I have a certain fondness for the country. An interesting accent, a very cool music scene in Toronto. However, they started down the same suicidal road as western Europe. The recent trial of Mark Steyn for daring to publish truths about Islam is a perfet example, and although the politically correct thought police did not carry the day this time, the very fact that the regime sought by those believing in the right to be offended has advanced to the point of show trials says much about the current state of ‘tolerance’ in the land of the Maple Leaf, as well as the threats against Christian pastors for preaching from the Bible (that damn hate speech again), and now to turn your straw man against you. If you think enough of these nations to name them in a weak rebuttal, then why are you here, seeking to change the laws we live under?
I’m going to bed and I have a busy day tomorrow. I’ll try to check in for the counter I know is coming. I read much of your comments as attempts at rhetorical alchemy. You keep trying to spin dross into gold.
December 16th, 2008 at 1:11 AMUsing
Darth Venomous @:
Motherfucker, Mayim is that shit heel Caspian? That explains a lot.
December 16th, 2008 at 1:47 AMUsing
Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur sez:
I get the reference, but I don’t see how it applies. Are you saying I shouldn’t be ranting against Christianity at all, because Islam is so much worse? (Despite the fact that, well, there aren’t very many Muslims in this country, but there are a ton of Christians?)
Christianity shares something very evil with Islam, and that is the belief that God throws all the “nonbelievers” into an eternal torture pit (Hell), where they are tortured for the “crime” of failing to believe one story over all the others. Sorry, I’d have to call that “pretty goddamned evil” (no pun intended). Any God capable of such a thing is clearly malevolent.
I’m seeing if the Dems will actually do something about my pet issues in the next four years. If I don’t see any progress, I most likely will leave after all.
December 16th, 2008 at 2:51 AMUsing
Tyrmadris sez:
“Self-proclaimed” nothing. I was born to a Jewish mother; I am a Jew. As for Sheol, I had it confused with Gehenna (a related concept, but not synonymous). They didn’t teach us much about the afterlife in Hebrew school; Jews tend to have quite a bit less of a preoccupation with the afterlife than Christians.
December 16th, 2008 at 3:03 AMUsing
True, but this, frankly, causes me to loose no sleep. The problem is more subtle. As I’ve pointed out there is no evidence that hardline, big-time Christians (e.g. the Vatican) are better at facing Islam than hardline, big-time atheists. As I’ve pointed out.
December 16th, 2008 at 3:07 AMUsing
LC Wunderlampe sez:
I’d actually argue that a rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth anti-religionist would have more drive and ambition to fight against the Saracen hordes than a believer in some other religion.
December 16th, 2008 at 3:15 AMUsing
mayim @:
And yet, outside of your “marriage”, you are free to do as you want. Where is this overbearing intrusion into how you live?
Have you looked at the appointees? You are expecting change out of the same people you put your faith in 16 years ago?
And please tell us, are you going to the same country all those celebrities moved to when Bush was elected (both times)?
December 16th, 2008 at 3:16 AMUsing
SoCalOilMan, LC sez:
Not being allowed to marry the person I love is pretty bloody overbearing.
16 years ago, I was in Middle School.
Anyways, I’m not “expecting” anything. I’m just giving America another few years before I finally give up and move on.
December 16th, 2008 at 3:26 AMUsing
mayim @:
BLOODY OVERBEARING. It’s been pointed out here many, many times you can achieve the same status and benefits as marriage through civil union with the proper paperwork. You are an atheist, yet insist on taking a religious title and redefining it to your terms. I would think you would shun a title with religious connotations. If you don’t think it’s easy enough to file partnership, do something about getting your one-stop shopping written into law. Just don’t try to redefine an institution into something that it doesn’t mean.
Guess in Middle School 16 years ago they didn’t teach any gov’t classes, so I’ll forgive your ignorance on the history, recent and past. of this country..and of course you aren’t aware of what occurred during those years.
Band, JROTC, art and tech training get dropped…but they have money for Chicano studies, GLBTG studies, etc…
(And I’m still curious about where you’re thinking of moving to in order to get away from this American hellhole if things don’t work out?)
December 16th, 2008 at 4:16 AMUsing
mayim sez:
Yeah, I’d think that too, but over and over it has been shown to not only not be the case, but the exact opposite.
Anti-Christian and Anti-Semetic bigots like yourself have been shown to be far more concerned with destroying “Teh Ebbil Xtians and Joooos” than with preserving western culture against those who would tear it down and enslave it - probably because of your hatred for all things western.
Of course, when the Amir of North Ameristan hangs your ass from a crane for being a deviant, MAYBE you’ll long for the days of not being able to get a piece of paper from the courthouse.
December 16th, 2008 at 5:52 AMUsing
Interesting point, Ahmedina-jihad and company just KILL homosexuals (and transsexuals) in cold blood; here you get to live how you please, form binding contracts and wills, and otherwise pursue happiness so long as you don’t harm others. But co-opting a religious term like marriage is so important that it is seen as equivalent to radical Islamic regimes.
Except gonzo really said it better.
Emperor Misha - that was an excellent post; weird how it turned into the mayim show again…I didn’t read the comments yet.
December 16th, 2008 at 3:37 PMUsing
Ahmed-a-nutjob is a nutjob and Iran is a theocratic, repressive shithole. Nobody here has ever said that Iran is better than the US; quite the opposite.
Yeesh, what the hell, Annie? Come on, if you’re going to make a straw man, at least make a realistic-looking one? Who the hell here has defended Iran?
LC Gonzman sez:
I’m anti-Semitic??? :em01: :em99: I’m a Jew, you IDIOT. I’ve been the VICTIM of anti-Semitism. I once came home to my dorm to find a Swastika scrawled on an elevator wall.
December 16th, 2008 at 4:12 PMUsing
jmaimarc sez:
Wasn’t there also, I have read at various times, an attack as it were on the false gods worshiped by Egypt? For example worshiping Ra, or the sun god, was one reason for turning the sun dark? I had read that a lot of the things they worshiped were the direct targets of the plagues, but I don’t profess to know everything about it.
The rest of your post was really educational as well; nicely done.
December 16th, 2008 at 4:43 PMUsing
Mayim, you’re like a kid who’s 3 or 4 grade levels behind the class and thinks it’s the duty of the other students to bring you up to speed (while you stomp and cry) instead of progressing as they are supposed to be doing. Go back to your grade level and learn there ffs.
Someone asked what you offer to these discussions, if anything. I’d have to say pretty much nothing, *except* one very valuable facet - that of a catalyst.
Some of the replies to mayim’s tantrums and bullshit have been nothing short of completely inspirational as well as educational. They make me think, they teach me, and they make me swell with various good feelings. While it is infuriating to see the most well-thought-out, obviously time-consuming, obviously hard-worked-on posts dismissed as “little screeds” and met with nothing but tangential, meaningless bullshit, they are NOT just pearls before swine, because other people (like me) read them and gain a lot from them.
In other words, said poster’s direct input is pretty much nil (so far as I’ve seen; of course I’m new) but what is brought out as a result, which might not otherwise have been brought out, is far from nil. IMO.
By the same token, it is possible that much greater things could come out without the constant whining of the mosquito, but since every thread takes this direction I’m working with what I have here.
December 16th, 2008 at 6:13 PMUsing
Speaking of fighting a religion, look at the Muslim pigfuckers getting all misty-eyed over the passage of an Islamic Jihad militant… fucking disgusting.
http://news.bbc.co.u.....85669.stm#, click on the [5].
Those sobbing women need a good smack. :em96:
December 16th, 2008 at 6:13 PMUsing
mayim sez:
Term “Self Hating Jew” ring a bell? Some of the worst anti-white bigots I know are …well … white. One doesn’t exclude the other. Jeez, you act like I didn’t KNOW you profess Jewish ancestors.
And my buddy Rebbe Dave would say a non-religious Jew is an oxymoron. I’m inclined to agree, strictly on the basis that Jews get to decide what being an authentic Jew is.
And I notice you chose to nitpick rather than address anything. Everyone else did too. Yeah, yeah, I know, nothing to address … etc liberal boilerplate…ad nauseum.
December 16th, 2008 at 7:38 PMUsing
LC Gonzman @:
I’m a “self-hating Jew”? What, because I’m not religious? :em01:
Seriously. How do you even come UP with this shit?
Ask 10 Jews, you’ll get 11 opinions on what constitutes an “authentic” Jew. The most common definition is “someone who was born to a Jewish woman”, and I was. So you can go pound sand. I’m a Jew, as is my mother, my mother’s mother, and my mother’s mother’s mother (all of whom are still living). So if you want to lecture me about not being “Jewish enough”, you can shut your fat goyishe mouth.
December 16th, 2008 at 7:51 PMUsing
mayim sez:
I supose it is easy for you to be amused when arguing against strawmen is the limit of your intellect.
mayim sez:
Oooh, he can use Yiddish and Hebrew! What chutzpah! What schmaltz!
I passed your opinion off to the Good Rabbi - he told me to pass it along that posers like yourself want to play at being a Jew so you can claim victim status, but don’t want to do the hard work of BEING a Jew; and the the irony of citing the Talmud while denying it was not lost on him; in short, a proselyte who is in synagogue on Shabbat has more of a claim to “Jew” than you, no matter if you can trace your mother back to David.
And until you can do something about it, I will hold what opinions I please and voice them when and where I please. If you don’t like it, (A) stop reading them, (B) Go fuck yourself, or (C) do something about it.
December 17th, 2008 at 8:12 PMUsing
Sometimes I think that Mayim is a figment of managements’ imagination. Imaginary Christmas Chewtoy to get our dander up.
D’
December 17th, 2008 at 9:00 PMUsing
A bit late, but I thought I should point out… there’s two kinds of ‘Jew’… bloodline Jews and religious Jews. As in, some who are the biological descendants of the original Tribes… and those who follow the religion and worship of YHWH. And, of course, there are those who are both, by blood and belief. No small amount of miscommunication can occur simply by using the term ‘Jew’ without clarifying which is being spoken about.
December 17th, 2008 at 11:30 PMUsing
Hmmmm…. wouldnt this be the difference in being from Isrealite parentage and practicing judeism? I wonder…. One of my best buds in the whole wide world is a non-practicing Jew from NYC. Of course from time to time this warrants me calling him a Yankee Jew Bastard….but I say it with luv. So Im thinking in specific terms a “Jew” can be anyone that practices Judeism…. But an Isrealite..is a genetic thing from the “tribe”.
So given that (she who will not be named) is not a practioner of the Jewish faith… she cant be a Jew.. but she can be from Isrealite ancestory…..
December 18th, 2008 at 1:49 AMUsing
What mayim said is technically correct. Judaism views anyone with a Jewish mother as being Jewish, no matter what their level of practice is. Or, as my grandfather (z”l) used to say, “Jewish enough for Hitler.”
Judaism has many practices that symbolically incorporate all levels of Jewish observance. Two examples:
During Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles, we take four species: the date palm branch (lulav), three myrtle branches (hadassim), two river willow branches (aravot) and a citron (etrog). They the four types of persona, based on aroma and taste which represent outward expression and inward conviction respectively: the etrog symbolizes someone who is both inwardly and outwardly Jewish, the lulav which has only the taste as someone who has inward conviction but can’t manifest it expressly, the hadassim are the opposite, and the aravot which have neither taste nor smell.
During Passover, we read in the Hagaddah about the Four Sons: one wise, one wicked, one simple and one who doesn’t know how to ask questions. Over the years they’ve been aged so the wisest is the oldest and the youngest is the one who doesn’t know how to ask (i.e. a baby), but I think that was just a machination of illustrators. They illustrate four attitudes: the wise as subservient to HaShem, one who rejects Him utterly, one who is curious about the practices he sees at the seder, and one who is so ignorant he doesn’t even know how relate to the concept of a Higher Being.
Judaism doesn’t accept or reject Jews based on their levels of practice. Bigots and ignoramuses do.
There are thirteen fundamental as taught by Maimonidies. What I don’t understand is why anyone who doesn’t believe/accept/acknowledge these principles would want to be bothered with the appellation “Jew.” It can’t be about the matzoh, it sure isn’t about fasting on Yom Kippur, and saying “I’m a Jew” doesn’t exactly open doors in this world.
I know some people expressed their displeasure with religion as being dominating and controlling. What I think religion is at its very core is a comprehensive system for making me a better person, without me having to reinvent the wheel. I don’t need to murder someone to know that murder is bad, give charity to know that giving charity is good, etc. I have 613 “rules” that I know if I follow, will make me the best human being I could possibly be.
December 18th, 2008 at 2:57 AMUsing
jmaimarc sez:
If I have taken the above out of context, then please accept my respectful apology for the following cause Im not one hundred percent sure it was meant as it was delivered.
I am not a bigot (nor the vast majority here) nor am I a “ignoramous”. I may be ignorant as to the ways Judaism (got the spelling right this time) but not ignorant in toto. And being as such, I dont have much appreciation for the implication that I (or anyone here for that matter) fall into either category.
Judasim doesnt accept or reject based upon practice or not, but considers lineage to be from the “mother”. Does this mean that if a female gentile converts then her offspring are forever more Jewish? What of the son of jewish parents that converts to Christianity or something else? One could say that they come from a Jewish religious background, and be correct, but be a christian. And I think one could say that they are of Isreali descent. Is this Judaism’s way of keeping the tribe close? I think there is more to being a “jew” than being produced from a Jewish mother. If one’s mother was Jewish but didn’t expose her child in any manner to Judaism or “jewishness” from a cultural perspective. How could that child be a Jew? The child may be a descendant of Isrealite’s….. Is it like once a Muslim always a muslim? Arabs can practice christianity and be christian arabs….. why couldnt isrealites practice christianty and still be Isrealite’s (from the tribe of Isreal)?
At this point I’de call you a jew bastard .. but we’re really not friends yet. :em93:
December 18th, 2008 at 8:42 AMUsing
jmaimarc sez:
Because I am quite proud of the rich cultural heritage of my people, much of which has little to nothing to do with the tenets of Judaism. I am exceptionally proud to be a Jew. That doesn’t mean I believe in HaShem!
December 18th, 2008 at 10:03 AMUsing
LC TerribleTroy, Imperial Centurion @:
Absolutely not! No apologies necessary. I apologize for making you think I was talking about you. My bad. Big bad. Quite the contrary, it was a backhand at some of my less tolerant “religious” co-practitioners, who tend to unfairly judge people based on arbitrary indicators. I should have been much more clear.
It’s a bit more complicated, but yes. If she has the children after her conversion. If not, the children have to convert as well.
It’s apostasy, but it ain’t a killin’ offense, unlike our Arabian cousins. We recognize a Jewish soul as being eternally Jewish. Once you’re in, you’re in.
Yes. It’s also why we don’t missionize (is that a word?), and potential converts are put through a rather rigorous conversion process. It’s an important commitment that we take very seriously.
As far as Israelis are concerned, that’s a modern construct that sadly has nothing to do with religion. Yes it was brought into existence as The Jewish State, but that was sadly a political maneuver to secure the blessings of the religious Jews involved with the process. I wish Israeli did mean Jewish, because it would help with the moral clarity issues that this idiotic government seems to have perpetual difficulties with…
I just reread your post.. Do you mean Israeli from the State of Israel or Israelite, which is biblical? An Israelite is an anglicization of the translation of the Bible. They would be considered Jews. That they weren’t referred to as Jews in the translations of the Bible is a function of the Church censors.
Yep, and that’s not the only idea they stole from us. Turning towards Mecca to pray, like we turn towards the site of the Holy Temple, no eating pork, praying multiple times daily..
Arab is more closely related to Caucasian or Pacific Islander or Indian. It describes a sub-race of human that comes from the Arabian Peninsula. Call an Iranian an Arab and they’ll get offended. Actually, my mechanic is a Christian Arab. There is a thriving missionary trade here, converting or de-converting Jews. If someone who was born of a Jewish mother or had a conversion to Judaism, but converts to another religion, even though they aren’t practitioners they are considered Jewish, technically, from our perspective. There were thousands of reformed, “enlightened” Jews who were killed for their lineage during the Holocaust. They were “Jewish enough for Hitler.” If you want to read about one of the most interesting examples in recent history, google “Dreyfus Hertzl J’Accuse”
I’ve been called worse.. :em02: Again, sorry about the implication.
mayim @:
I disagree. Much of the world’s history of culture and heritage has everything to do with religion. European cathedrals, Egyptian tombs, Hindu shrines, Buddhist sculpture, Aboriginal sand art, Native American (First American? What are they now?) woven art.. you name it, it has had religious connotation and purpose. Judaism too, with its illustrated religious manuscripts, Kabalah, liturgical chants, food items (latkes, cheesecake on Shavuot, even matzah
) all have their roots in religious practice. Some are even halachah (Jewish law) without people even knowing it..
It’s only been the last couple of hundred years that non-religious enlightened thought (Nietzsche, anyone?) has divested G-d from religion.
What does Cultural Judaism mean? I can’t think of a single example of Jewish cultural practice that doesn’t have a religious connotation. Please explain.
December 18th, 2008 at 11:12 AMUsing
And before anyone flips, no, I did not call Arabs sub-human. The Human race has sub-species that are identified by distinguishing physical characteristics. That’s what I meant.
Then again… :em99:
December 18th, 2008 at 11:19 AMUsing
jmaimarc @:
Thats why I checked and didnt just assume you were intentionaly being derogatory (didnt fit with your normal “writing profile”. :em93: No harm No foul. All Is well.
Thanks for the clarification regarding the Isrealites. I was confused because the term, according to my previous knowledge base. existed in writing before the state. I was using the term Isrealite / Isreali from the tribe / biblical perspective. When we discuss categorization of humanity.. this kinda of knowledge helps. So again thanks.
I know that the Iranians consider themselves “persians”. I wonder what the Syrians consider themselves?
Anywho.. You hang tough over there.. I have a feeling things are going to heat up soon. Hopefully your government will see fit to establish a group similar to the WW2 Fighting Tigers and allow some of US to come over and provide support for your fighting units. I know I would be proud to serve along side you & your brethren.
December 18th, 2008 at 12:48 PMUsing
The Syrians can consider themselves on notice.
Funny you should say that..! Hamas just this evening announced unilaterally (gosh! can they do that?) to end the ceasefire. Now we need someone in this government with enough testicular fortitude to deal with these psychos.
I know there are issues with a US citizen serving in a foreign military unit, I have no idea whatsoever what the details are. But hey, if the Paleos can import al-Qaeda, it would only be fair, right?
I’d just be happy if they’d just reissue me the M16A1 I had, but the gubmint here thinks us :em95: crazy settlers need to be vetted. again.
OTOH, only 240 days until I can apply for my personal handgun license…
You’re not just sayin’ that because you like to be on the winning team, right? :em01: We’d be happy to have you. Certainly if you or anyone (even you, mayim :-* ) would like to visit the prettiest place on Earth, there’s always space here at the Empire’s Furthest Outpost. We even have Tuborg. :em03:
December 18th, 2008 at 1:12 PMUsing
Not sure if anyone else pointed it out yet, but I think the more applicable quote from Napoleon on this issue is “in war, the moral is to the physical as three is to one”.
December 18th, 2008 at 1:40 PMUsing
I would fight on your side to be on the side of GOOD. In its current form and practice Islam and its practioners are EVIL. I am by nature a Gatekeeper, a Sheep Dog. I will not stand idly by and watch evil be inflicted upon the good. The fact that I believe you will be victorious is just icing on the cake.
Hamas has declared the cease fire over? Good…. so they’ll understand when the planes start flying and the tanks start rolling…..Didn’t Hillary recently meet with them? Or am I mistaken?
December 18th, 2008 at 1:48 PMUsing
jmaimarc sez:
One more reason to prefer the Jews over the Ay-rabs. At least you fuckers will drink with me.
December 18th, 2008 at 4:40 PMUsing
Well, perhaps you’re right that our culture has been heavily influenced by religion. But, of course, I can like the resulting culture without believing in the religion itself. Anyways, we’re all Jews; we gotta stick together. That’s part of the whole point, as has been pointed out. :em69:
You in Israel, jmaimarc? I already have an invite to visit an Israeli friend’s family there; maybe if I take them up on that offer, I’ll stop by your place as well.
Oh, and if you don’t hear from me until after Sunday night, happy first night of Chanukah! On my way down to FL for some of my mom’s delicious latkes…
December 18th, 2008 at 4:56 PMUsing
Mayim, Happy Chanukah to you and other Jewish readers!
One can be a believer, an atheist or an agnostic, but good, cheerful holidays with food, wine, family and friends should be enjoyed by all.
As long as said “holidays” do not involve beheading infidels, cutting oneself, or blowing up busloads of grannies. Or vandalizing Nativity scenes or Menorahs…
December 18th, 2008 at 6:49 PMUsing
Princess Natasha, Resident Crazy Cat-Lady and Alcohol Snob @:
Thankyew! A very merry Christmas to you, and a happy New Year (though I’m sure I’ll talk to you before the latter, and quite possibly before the former)
And happy Chanukah to all the other Jewish folks reading this (and heck, to the goyim as well :em93: )
Will have to take pictures of the latkes! My mom makes ‘em the best. One of these days, I’ll get her recipe.
December 18th, 2008 at 6:52 PMUsing
mayim @ 136:
I’m a little confused here! :em02:
Being a Jew is a religion, not a race. Therefore it would seem to me that to claim Jewish heritage one would have to recognize that religion was the founding principle of Judaism and defines the culture. Seems to me that saying “I’m a Jew, but I don’t believe in G-d or the laws He defined for us”, is like saying I’m a Christian, but maybe Jesus was just a wise man with some good lessons we should listen to.
According to Jewish law, you may be a Jew…an apostate Jew, but a Jew in their eyes. You reject the basic core of what a Jew is, yet you cling to the title. This is the typical double standard that is applied to arguments today, “I reject all the basic premises of those beliefs and will not subjugate myself to them, but will demand the same rights as those who do….and if you don’t compensate for MY belief, you are a bigot!!!”
December 20th, 2008 at 8:41 PMUsing
I disagree - being a Jew is not at all just being a “religion.” Being a Jew really IS a “race”. I put that in quotes because I don’t know that “race” fits, but it is certainly a bloodline. Yes, you can “convert” but Jews don’t really proselytize because it is far harder to adhere to the law and be under it than it is to be born and raised a Jew.
I count non-religious Jews as being more nearly Jewish than those who portend to convert and live as such - I mean come on, they can’t even follow an Nth of the laws, which were so very much based on animal sacrifice, as well as lived out within a theocracy which doesn’t exist anymore. It’s a bloodline. It’s a variety of tribes. One not born of it…well, it isn’t the same thing.
As to faithless Jews who were born into it, well, they are a stiff-necked people - always were, always will be. They have their share in the heavenly kingdom, being chosen, than those of us who were not born Jewish.
December 22nd, 2008 at 6:04 AMUsing
I’ll drink to that.
I’d have to help fix em’ back up.
My tolerance for any belief ENDS when it spits on another.
‘To ya Princess,, *Klink*
December 22nd, 2008 at 7:43 AMUsing
LC AnnieMcPhee @:
Which race exactly? Iraqi Jews or Syrian Jews or Moroccan Jews or Yemini Jews or Iranian Jews or Israeli Jews or Polish Jews or Hungarian Jews or Indian Jews or Ethiopian Jews or South African Jews or Russian Jews or Ukrainian Jews or German Jews or Dutch Jews or French Jews or Spanish Jews or American Jews or Canadian Jews or Australian Jews or Scottish Jews…
Metaphysically speaking, you are wrong. From our point of view, a convert is just as Jewish as someone born Jewish. We accept that their soul was present at the Giving of the Law at Sinai, and there is the belief of souls returning for another go-around. It is the commitment that converts make with their minds, bodies and souls that makes them Jewish. And we’re very protective of it, too. As I mentioned previously, we believe in the one-wayedness of it. Also, we’re forbidden to bring up their past, as if it didn’t exist. And G-d has some not nice things in store for anyone who harasses a convert based on their converted status. Converts are more precious in some ways because of their conscious commitment.
The most famous of Jewish converts, Ruth, had the distinction of being the grandmother of King David, who is the progenitor of the Moshiach (Messiah). IIRC, the New Testament notes that Jesus’ lineage is also from David and is used as a proof of his being the Messiah. So, if you want to contest a convert’s Jewishness, you may have to disqualify Jesus as being the Messiah (need I remind you it’s only a few days to Christmas…). Also, work backwards: Ruth was a Moabitess, and Moab was the child of the incestuous union between Lot and his older daughter. That’s not where I want the lineage of my Messiah coming from. If it’s all the same to you, I’ll stick with a convert being technically, officially, physically, metaphysically and spiritually Jewish. Of course if you need more convincing, I’ll be happy to introduce you to any one of my neighbors who are converts. I promise you couldn’t tell the difference.
As far as being hard, I wouldn’t know, because it’s all I’ve ever known. My sister has triplets. Is raising them harder? She wouldn’t know, because x3 is all she’s ever known. Consider that there are 34 sections to the NFL rulebook containing hundreds of rules, yet football players have no trouble following them and accepting penalties for infractions. Hundreds of rules are really not that hard to follow, once you’ve trained up a bit.
With regard to animal sacrifices, there are only a couple dozen commandments that deal directly with animal sacrifices, and we’ve transitioned into prayer as a substitute, but at one time it was the standard mode of worship for Jews and pagans (we just skipped the orgy afterward). We do recite the order of sacrifices as part of our liturgy as a reminder. Also, there are laws regarding the Jewish king, laws that pertain to Priests, laws that pertain strictly to women, strictly to men, active laws, prohibition laws… We don’t get hung up on the commandments we can’t do because we don’t have a Temple, but we study them so we’re prepared for when we do.
Judaism was never a theocracy, that is, ruled by religious leaders. We’ve had titleless leaders, judges, kings and monarchic descendants as rulers, but the spiritual leaders have never been the political leaders. At least I can’t think of any. The Sanhedrin was a council of Torah Sages who were consulted by the king (or should have at any rate), but they acted like a Supreme Court (SCOTCOI ?). Likewise the Temple Priests (with the exception of the Maccabees/Hasmonean Dynasty, which they were criticized for doing) were not political leaders. Perhaps you’re thinking of mullahs? That’s Islam. <– funny part
I don’t like this “more than” or “less than” concept about being Jewish. It’s like being pregnant; you either are or you aren’t. There are degrees of practice, degrees of belief, or degrees of adherence, but I’m not “more” Jewish because I wear a kippah, or “less” Jewish because I don’t have sidelocks.
Happy Chanukah!
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:11 AMUsing